Arrows and armor

I know that an arrow with a steel tip will penetrate plate armour when shot with an English Longbow.  And someone who knows how to use it. 

I would agree that Agnicourt placed the very heavy armoured French knights in a situation whereby, they were mostly doomed!

One must remember that a lot of these knights were, for want of a better term, large and strong bullies! They were accustomed to merely pushing over most of their opponents! They probably thought of themselves, armoured to the extreem as "superman!", and thus were almost always "over-confident!" But, we really do not have any idea just what the ambiant temperture was on the day of battle, but wrapped in steel enclousures, it must be hard to preserve one's bodily fluids at a healthy level? After all they did not have plastic tubes to suck necessary water into their mouths and bodies!

Slogging thru mud, in these suits, must have been the equivalent of carrying a 30-40 kilo pack, upon their backs! This reguires a lot of energy, which means calories, which means heat, that needs to be dispersed (sweat/urine), and fluids needed to replinish the lost fluids!

Does any one ever consider just how hard it must be to fight within one of these suits?

In the midst of a battle, just how does one eliminate bodily wastes?

Just whom is around to give you a "safe" drink of water?

I think that some of you might well reconsider your views of the battle fields described by Homer at Troy? The chariots/wagons? were used to transport the knight to the field of battle, and to remove the knight when conditions warrented!

Contrary to popular movies, there is little way any man so encumbered as he must have been by layers of padding and steel armour, could fight at his extreem for more than ten to twenty minutes at the most! Encumber him more with deep mud, or water, and this time period must well shrink to a lessor period depending of course upon the level of fitness the kight was trained to endure!

Add to this the pressure upon the knights not to be knocked down, and have to regain one's footing in the mud, water, etc.!

There exists numerous examples of such battles over the centuries, many of which I have already mentioned in one of my numerous postings on this site!

Edited by opuslola - 07-Feb-2011 at 15:24

Originally posted by Cryptic Originally posted by lancelotfr But what about arrows vs full plate armor? - Some people say it's quite impossible for arrow to go trough trough plate armor like gothics one - Some other say it was possible, it depend specialy of arrow head? Originally posted by red clay I know that an arrow with a steel tip will penetrate plate armour when shot with an English Longbow.  And someone who knows how to use it.  Good point on the need for an expert user.    I saw a great show once on the history channel which recreated long bow verse high quality plate armour.  The show demonstrated (as Red Clay states) that steel tiped arrows will penetrate even high quality plate.  The show also demonstrated that the arrow tip had to be: - high quality steel - be of a specific design  -shot straight, though not necesarily truly point blank (no plunging arrow hits).  -Not be deflected by angled armour   Most (if not all) English archers at Agnicourt did not have the combination of design and steel quality. Wealthy French knights had the best plate armour in the world that included very high quality steel and skilled use of slopes and angles to deflect projectiles.   But... not all French knights had the best plate or they mixed and matched the quality of armour pieces.  In the end. the show speculated that most French deaths at Agnicourt seem to be due to heat exhaustion and the murder of POWS, not arrow hits.

 

Originally posted by opuslola And, just why red-clay, would you describe what anyone else in the entire world wold describe as an "Atatl spear", be mentioned as a "dart?" It seems an extreem streaeeetch? The next "Dart" is now in your hands! So, just how do any of you explain the Biblical", Darts?"

They existed well before the cross-bow, or other machines, if we assume that the Biblical history if correct?

Originally posted by opuslola And, just why red-clay, would you describe what anyone else in the entire world wold describe as an "Atatl spear", be mentioned as a "dart?"  So, just how do any of you explain the Biblical"Darts?"

Edited by Cryptic - 10-Feb-2011 at 10:40

Actually, if you can consider a spear in the length of five to six feet a "dart", then you both are most generous!

Anything with a spear-point or arrow-point upon it in the length of five to six feet or more, is a "spear", and nothing else!

http://web.grinnell.edu/anthropology/Atlatl%20Stuff%20for%20John/CoachingtheAtlatl.htm

The above site, and numerous others that can be found with some dilligent research on the "net" will prove my point!

I have found no source that seems to show that the killing "spear" was less than 60 inches long!, much less 30 inches or so!

So! If you can produce an example of a 30 inch long accelerator, throwing a 30 inch spear, then please exhibit it here?

Note the spelling of the word for the 30 inch long notched piece of wood that led to the acceleration of the "dart", is, as far as I can tell never much longer than a mans fore-arm!, is open to one's opinion!


Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 11-Feb-2011 at 19:40

What a good examination of the subject guys! Bravo!

But, we also have to assume that certain people in the past, that we might well call armourers, were up to the challenge, at least after a few mis-steps.

That is, battles were, it seems, common during a large period of the 14th thru the 17th century CE. And, just like today, there was a competition of sorts, for leaders, generals, Kings, Princes, Dukes, etc., to be able to field the best of both offensive and defensive items. Thus, one can consider that in the aftermath of either a loss or a victory, then certain persons were given to examine the results of their efforts, and figure out just what caused the loss of so many men, or what was the biggest factor that prevented the loss of men, or just what was the greatest item to surface during the battle, that could be used in the next one.

Now, I would like also to speculate, that, in my opinion at least, the average man or woman during those centuries, were to a great degree in possession of a greater native intelligence or IQ, than exists today.

They were not "mere brutes" or bullies, but both, with great IQ's! Thus if a Lord, or Captain, or Duke, who had survived the battlefield was brought back to the lines with a wound, or if merely their bodies were brought back, there would most probably be those who were interested in just how they were injured or killed, etc.

The same thing happens today! Thus if a bolt (or as I would consider it, a "dart") from a cross-bow, was found to have caused the injury or death of an armoured combatant, then a reason had to be found to explain it. And then, of course those warriors wearing the same type of armour, wanted to be sure that it did not happen again.

Thus the armour V. weapons race was begun! And, it also continues to this very day.

I could go on, but the very length of just this post, insures that most readers will not even get to this point!

regards,

Most arrows which penetrated full plate armour did so due to them finding the gaps. Ouch!

Arrows of this type were used by English longbowmen. They served the same function as armor-piercing bullets, being made of hardened steel. I have an original arrowhead at home with a very long point.

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising How often did longbows achieve a kill against those wearing full plate armour?

Edited by Cryptic - 31-May-2011 at 10:28