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Feudal Frankish Empire

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  Quote Ulrich Wolff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Feudal Frankish Empire
    Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 15:33
How did Feudalism end in the Frankish Empire? When?
How did the king come to depend on the frankish aristocrats during Feudalism?
 
The resources I have left gaping holes in numerous areas.


Edited by Ulrich Wolff - 17-Dec-2007 at 16:27
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 18:55
Feudalism did not end in the Frankish Empire, it was under Charles Martel that feudalism really took off. Charles' insistence on issuing titles and lands as trusts for allegiance that eventually ended up being hereditary trusts and varied from region to region jump started feudalism in France.


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  Quote Ulrich Wolff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 19:10

I asked how it ended within the Frankish empire not how it ended in the world.

I've found some resources that say "It ended due to trade and the increase of the use coins"
 
These pathetic articles are next to useless for more specific information. Could anyone care to expand on that little bit of knowledge?
 

I am working on a Feudalism report for school. The following is what I've completed of it.  

 

 

 

            Feudalism is essentially a government run by a system of contracts between rich aristocrats, peasants, and even wealthier nobility. At the head of a feudal government is a king who is the highest "ring" in the feudal system. Beneath the king is a ring of powerful Lords who command a great amount of lands and vassals (servants). Beneath them are yet less powerful Lords who play as vassal to the ring above them. There are yet more rings of Lords of less standing below them. These rings continue until they reach the bottom of the poorest servant for these Lords. Each ring provides support to the other rings through military protection, judicial protection, and economic support.

 

 

 

 

            The Frankish Empire began showing early Feudalism in 600-700 A.D. The Frankish Empire was a largely rural country with lots of free land. The Frankish nobles decided to give pieces of land as rewards and currency. The earliest example of Feudalism is the giving of property or a fief to a soldier with the expectation that he will provide his own weaponry from the wealth hes earned from the land. Another great example of feudalism is the poor and weak seeking security in wealthier people who own large estates. Eventually this began a tradition of contracts for protection in return for military service or working land for the wealthy aristocrat. The wealthy aristocrat was called a Seigneur (in English Lord) the client Vassus (in English Vassal. It means servant.). Another element of feudalism was growing rapidly, the exercise of judicial power by the aristocrat over his vassals (or servants). Little by little these aristocrats gained more power and the king grew to depend on them himself.

 

 

 

            Feudalism was at its height between 1000-1200 AD. By this time traditions of feudalism has ingrained itself into the Frankish society. The contracts now were preformed as a ceremony called "hommage." The vassal would place his hands in his Lords, give an oath, in some cases at this point the Lord kissed the vassal. The vassal was then given a clod of earth, a stick, a charter, a banner, or a staff to symbolize the land or office given to the vassal. When given a piece a property it was called a "fief."  A fief technically does not belong to the vassal although they work it, and depending on their status carry out every day jurisdiction. The Lord who gives the property retains control of it and at any time can enforce dominium onto their vassal. Dominium is the right of the owner to dictate who is on the land and what is done to the land. Depending on their status the vassal is expected to serve a certain amount of time as a heavily armed mounted soldier known as a knight yearly, and also give an amount of the fruit of his labor to his Lord. In some cases these knights work the land themselves and are only a step above the common man. On the other hand the knight may hold a small estate himself known as a ville, and have a number of "fiefs" that he has given for the services of other men to him. In the event of a vassal's death his heir must retake the oath from his Lord to assume office. If there is no heir then the Lord can assign another person to the post, if the heir is too young and another family member is alive then they take care of the fief until the heir is full grown. If the heir is a woman then the Lord has the right to choose her husband and the new vassal. Because the Lord had complete judicial rights there were many abuses such as, heavy taxation, crime unpunished, and unfair seizure of property. The only way the unjust Lord could be brought to justice is by a more powerful Lord or the vassals themselves. Either way though this caused a civil war. Throughout the history of feudalism there were many wars between Lords of their own country. All of the more powerful Lords acted in their own interests frequently. This created a very violent and unstable environment for the Frankish Empire. Public services fell apart because of their Lord's disinterest for the welfare of the people, because of this education suffered greatly. The culture generally dissolved back to the barbarous nature it was before Romanization. Trade suffered as well, there were few Frankish merchants and generally only foreign merchants existed in Francia. Frankish trade mostly revolved around the items that were crafted in the estates and villes, which were mostly products of blacksmithing. There was no education outside of the Church; the only Frankish poet that existed at this time was an Italian who served the queen of Francia.

 

 

By 1400 A.D. Feudalism has seriously declined due to various reasons. The most important though is the crusades opened new trade routes to the east and various forms of knowledge inherited from the Greek people. The Spanish libraries proved to be vital in the education of the west. The work of a Greek philosopher Aristotle was found there and his work copied to native languages of the western European nations. His work influenced church officials heavily, and nobles. Particularly a monk named Thomas Aquinas whose work is still considered important. The monks began infusing Aristotles philosophy of logic with Christianity and held many conferences in attempts to interpret many a subject. The new trade routes increased the use of money and the income of the western nations. Because there was more money available people no longer had to use land as currency and merely paid soldiers their amounts due. Workers also began being paid for their services instead of being given a piece of property to live on, and work. The very stone and mortar Feudalism sat on slowly began to disintegrate as people became more independent, educated, and wealthy.

 

Help me? LOL



Edited by Ulrich Wolff - 17-Dec-2007 at 19:49
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 00:58
There are a number of reasons why it ended, and it ended in stages.

While feudalism can be easily enforced in the countryside, it is harder to do in the cities. When people come together in a common mass, easily able to communicate and collaborate with one another, they are more politically dangerous. They can be more easily organised than a dispersed peasantry. As a result, areas which developed into cities often developed their own civic structures which were independent of a lord or only paid him titular honours. The urbanisation which resulted from improved agricultural yield encouraged new forms of political organisation outside feudalism.

The Black Death wiped out about a third of the European population. Suddenly there was a massive labour shortage. The aristocracy found itself having to pay ever higher wages for labour, and soon found themselves competing with one another for labour. The thing many people do not realise is that many people in the medieval period could move around fairly freely and could sometimes change lords. Lords therefore had to offer competitive terms to keep their peasants on the land, otherwise these peasants may flee to a neighbouring lord who would protect them and give them better economic conditions. As the common folk found themselves more mobile and better paid, they had more options. Many were able to purchase both their freedom and the land they worked outright, reducing the local lord's control of land and people in return for a quick injection of cash.

The church in the late medieval period declined as a pervasive administrative institution. People were less inclined to donate land, or pay the tithe. The Reformation helped this process along greatly, reducing ecclesiastical income. Meanwhile the administrative role taken up by the church was superseded by a growing bureaucracy under the increasingly centralised royal governments in Europe. We must not forget that the church was itself a feudal landowner, with many abbots and bishops having fiscal and military resources equal to that of their non-ecclesiastic aristocratic neighbours.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 01:50
Constantine XI is quite correct in that the feudal "system" really died as a result of the Black Death.  Both in terms of economic reality, and in terms of social legitimacy, the old feudal relationships became tenuous at best by 1400, and pretty much obsolete by about 1450.  By the 16th century, feudal relationships were mostly a memory.
 
The result of catastrophic deaths by "unknown" causes, and all the social upheaval that caused, was the qualified rejection of Catholic faith by many segments of society (including those in the Church), and the rise of "humanism" among Renaissance men.  The schism in the Church during the Babylonian Captivity did not encourage Christian unity or social order, and the 15th century corruption of both legitimate state theory, and legitimate Church authority, led to the breakdown of established relationships....first in Italy, then elsewhere.
 
We do need to recognize that feudal institutions were not universal in Europe.  It might be argued that feudalism didn't exist in the Frankish kingdom before about 1000 A.D., and that it didn't really die out until 1789.  However, in Italy, feudalism was an import from Normandy (in Sicily/Naples), and never really impacted the north of the peninsula.
 
This is an interesting discussion.
 
    
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 03:32
Originally posted by Ulrich Wolff

I asked how it ended within the Frankish empire not how it ended in the world.

I've found some resources that say "It ended due to trade and the increase of the use coins"
 
These pathetic articles are next to useless for more specific information. Could anyone care to expand on that little bit of knowledge?
 

I am working on a Feudalism report for school. The following is what I've completed of it.  

 

 

 



That is the thing. Within the Frankish Empire it did not end. It ended through heavy centralization in later centuries following the reverse of the the 100 Years War.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 03:35
The Black Death sure did have a role in ending it. Within France the 100 Years War also played a role as the re-conquest expanded the French royal lands and brought the countryside closer to the monarchy. That however did not end feudal relations between the King and peasantry. A combination of both weakened it. Nevertheless, even up to the Revolution vestiges of the Feudal system remained, peasants had certian roles to carry out in society until abolishment of Feudal dues (Help with road repair, etc...)


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 03:37
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

 
We do need to recognize that feudal institutions were not universal in Europe.  It might be argued that feudalism didn't exist in the Frankish kingdom before about 1000 A.D., and that it didn't really die out until 1789.  However, in Italy, feudalism was an import from Normandy (in Sicily/Naples), and never really impacted the north of the peninsula.
 
This is an interesting discussion.
 
    


In France it started around the late 700s with Charles Martel's grants of lands and titles in fideis.
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  Quote Ulrich Wolff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 15:29
In France it started around the late 700s with Charles Martel's grants of lands and titles in fideis.
Correct. France was the first European country to use feudalism. Was it Charles Martel who took the Church's land and gave it to soldiers under the contract that they would provide they're own eqiupment and resources?  I can't remember if it was him or one of his brothers. I'm not a name person.
 
 
 
 
rise of "humanism" among Renaissance men
Would that have some thing to do with the work of Thomas Aquinas and the finding of Greek knowledge?
 
 
 
 
 
 
Thank you constantine that information was very helpful.


Edited by Ulrich Wolff - 18-Dec-2007 at 15:35
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 17:53
Constantine is usually good for information on the period.
Yes Charles Martel initiated most of the foundation for feudalism. You can also go back to Diocletian's reforms that limited sons to careers of fathers and the ever increasing expansion of latifundas or manors of senators.


Edited by es_bih - 18-Dec-2007 at 22:39
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 15:54
My areas of interest don't go back as far as Diocletian, but we need to limit the credit to Karl Martel for any "copyright" on feudalism. Smile
 
Retainers around men of substance certainly predate the Frankish kingdom(s), and even the bucellarii of the later Roman period.  There has been recent scholarship that indicates that far from some formal and contractual relationships, the retainers of Frankish kings were more hangers-on than vassals.  The king (or war lord) needed the approbation of the comitatus, and found it necessary to maintain a suficient band of military types to influence and cajole the other family groups that had their own numbers of retainers.  The way this could be done was by convincing them that his service was of benefit to them.  That was principally by making available to these people opportunities for plunder, tribute and ransom....no savings accounts or stock brokers then. 
 
Martel was able to increase the number of these retainers due to his military successes and force of person.  He then had more hangers-on than previous Frankish leaders.
 
Even up to the time of Charlemagne and beyond, the retainers, and those who actually did receive benefices had to be persuaded that taking up arms at the behest of the king was in their own interests.  The costs were considerable, and the rewards had to outweigh those.
 
Some scholars feel that the extent of the Frankish realm was set by the poverty of lands further from N. France/W. German areas.  The retainers were reluctant to campaign so far to the east due to the lack of plunder and ransoms available there.  Hardly a picture of feudal obligation as yet.
 
These ralationships and "institutions" took centuries to develop.  Frankish kings were not able to impose feudal responsibilities on others in a warrior caste; they had to make it worth their while.
 
The whole issue of confiscations from the Church is another topic.  That had been going on since the 5th century among the Franks.
 
Still another issue is land tenure.  Many benifices were for the life of the retainer only.  His heirs might find themselves reduced again to just hanging at the court of the king hoping for praeda militari.  The widespread hereditary tenure of land took longer to develop.
 
The point is that the 700s and even the 800s are too early for feudal relationships as they became understood in the 11th to 13th centuries.  And then as discussed above, the Black Plague effectively killed feudalism as an institution...even though the social idea lasted far longer.  By the late 14th century, feudal knights were being somewhat displaced by mercenary soldiers as military instrumentalities.  Costs had increased drastically due to labor shortages, and the knight had difficulty keeping his economic standing.
 
   


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 21-Dec-2007 at 21:15
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 16:30
He initiated the system on a more state wide basis and he had been more successful than previous war lords. I am not intending to give him the copyright. However, he is the originator of a feudal system of governance that only expanded and formalized as the centuries went on. Yes Diocletian's reforms had something to do with it, too. His reforms alongside Germanic retainer practices all played a part. A distinguished Prof. at UIC, Fanning who is an expert medievalist confirms this developing trend as well.

The thing is Feudal institutions have their earliest origins in the 8th ct. Feudalism is not a megalith order though, nor is it static. Thus it occured in various forms throughout Europe, and even within the Frankish lands certain territories developed unique characteristics when compared to others. Feudalism is too hard to define in a sentence or two. Yes the feudal relationship certainly became much more formalized in the 11th-13th centuries and that is where we look to for "authentic feudal roles." However, it did not spring out of nowhere in the 11th century either.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 16:33
That is what I have had written as well that hereditary land and office grants developed over a longer span of time than just Charles Martel's reign. However, in Feudal legal terms many territories were held for the life of the office holder, and passed on the the child with the consent and agreement of the lord who could pass the title or land grant on. It took a while to have a hereditary feudal nobility. However, a feudal nobility existed where these hereditary traits were not so well entrenched as well.
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  Quote Ulrich Wolff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 15:44
I'm sure there were a lot of "I scratch your back you scratch mine" type of relationship through the ages. But that isn't what I'm interested in.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 16:56
Those are the roots of Feudalism.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 21:13
Originally posted by Ulrich Wolff

I'm sure there were a lot of "I scratch your back you scratch mine" type of relationship through the ages. But that isn't what I'm interested in.
 
Not sure what you are interested in then, as the inter-relationships are of major importance.
 
If you are looking for some starting point, and for formularies that were imposed by a hero king, I think you are on the wrong track.  As with almost all historical analysis, there is a lot of interpretation involved, and that changes over time.
 
What are you interested in?  
 
 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 21:31
Originally posted by Ulrich Wolff

How did Feudalism end in the Frankish Empire? When?
How did the king come to depend on the frankish aristocrats during Feudalism?
 
The resources I have left gaping holes in numerous areas.
 
To review your two questions:
 
First, feudalism may have certain tenuous origins in the Carolingian era, but it was not as widespread among the military nobility as has been previously thought.  The forms of commendation and of benefice in the 8th century were rewards for loyalty or familial connections, and not an economic basis for feudal institutions.  The forms were there, but that is all.
 
A prominent medievalist around 1960 felt that surviving documents in Latin relating to these forms indicated a feudal model, but even he acknowledged that there were so few instances of them that it could not be stated that these practices were widespread, or that land tenure was widely associated with them.
 
So, feudalism didn't end in the Frankish empire; it probably had barely begun.
 
Second, please re-read the posts above about the "back scratching."  Smile
 
Good luck with your paper!
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 21-Dec-2007 at 21:35
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 02:42
It definetly  did not end in the Frankish Empire, its first roots are of origin in the Frankish Empire, it grew to maturity in various regions at various times; in France by the 9th centuries. You must remember that history is not linear. You have to take into account also events such as the Viking invasion, which in turn degraded royal power, and created larger duchies, which had more autonomy in order to deal with the threat... 
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 06:42
For the complexity of Feudalism in many places, France, England, Germany and Italy mostly, I would suggest reading Susan Reynolds's book Fiefs and Vassals. There is no one cause for the fall/decline of feudalism.

You talk about gapping holes left by your resources, what are they? Feudalism in Medieval Historiography is discussed ad nauseam, especially in the Historiography of Medieval France, see books like "Feudal Transformation" and the Reynolds book that I mentioned earlier. These books should answer most of your questions.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 15:57
For a primary source reading on some characteristics of Feudalism you can read:

Translation  Fanning, Steven (with Bernard S. Bachrach), The Annals of Flodoard of Reims (Broadview Press: Peterborough, ON, Canada, 2004)

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Fanning, Steven. A Bishop and His World Before the Gregorian Reform, Hubert of Angers, 1006-1047 (Transactions of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. 78, Part I, 1988)


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