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Does "King Arthur" really EXIST??
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Balain d Ibelin View Drop Down
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Posts: 197 		  Quote Balain d Ibelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Does "King Arthur" really EXIST??
    Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 04:38
King Arthur was a legendaric figure that united the Britons to fought the Saxons. His story was written by a French monk at about 1180-s. And His real battle that was recorded was Battle of Mons Badonicus (Baden Hills).
 
In my opinion, King Arthur and his Knights and their finding of Holy Grail was real, but I don't believed Camelot and Amelot existed.
 
 
Please, not only by your opinion, but also from knowledge, answer this Question.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 06:24
I posted what I know already once here:
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

A leader called Arthur first appears in old Celtic stories. Noticable about them is that in these tales, he is almost always a secondary character, not the main figure, and that quite often he is neutral at best, or just plain bad. He is also generally not a king, but a leader of a group of warriors, more war-lord or raubriter than anything else. The later Arthurian traditions are undoubtly based on these Celtic stories, but they changed quite a lot, the whole courtly love idea was added much later. Many of these early stories are very early Celtic saints lives, and Arthur sometimes is a heathen...Wink so much for the grail.... Big%20smile that is defenately later...
 
Historically there are a lot of guesses and not much to base them on. The current concensus is that he was an actual historical figure of the ca. 5th-6th century, but there is not (and probaby never will be) enough evidence to prove this.
 
 


Edited by Aelfgifu - 13-Jun-2007 at 06:27

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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 10:50
Same goes for me. I think my posts are in the same thread.
 
I never came across anyone before who thought the story of the Holy Grail was real.
 
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Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 12:41
Originally posted by Balian d'Ibelin

King Arthur was a legendaric figure that united the Britons to fought the Saxons. His story was written by a French monk at about 1180-s. And His real battle that was recorded was Battle of Mons Badonicus (Baden Hills).

In my opinion, King Arthur and his Knights and their finding of Holy Grail was real, but I don't believed Camelot and Amelot existed.



Please, not only by your opinion, but also from knowledge, answer this Question.



In all likelihood, the story of King Arthur is not about a single individual or a single time period but is a legend built by accretion - the story is woven out of different episodes.

Camelot, for instance, has some basis at least linguistically. The center of power in pre-Roman Britain was a tribal city and stronghold featuring the only mint in Britain, known in Latin as "Camulodunum" - the city of Camulod, the Briton's god of war. So certainly that name harks back to that place, even though it is certain no post-Roman war leader could have had anything to do with the place, as it was razed to the ground during the Boudiccan revolt.

Many other elements of the story apparently date back to a pre-Roman era, but some obviously do not.

If you are familiar with local folk legends in England surrounding various places (for example, the Devil's Chair in the Stipperstones) you will know that folk myths in England have tended to adapt with the times by mixing in newer and more contemporary elements to suit the new zeitgeist. Most of them are accretions built over the ages, and likely the King Arthur story is one of these.

The challenge of the King Arthur story is determining which elements are from which time period, and how, why and when pre-Roman elements were attached to a post-Roman individual.
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Posts: 151 		  Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 00:46
First mentioned in Nennius's "History of Britain" as a Roman cavalry commander.

Well most about the medieval tale and Celtic connections are already mentioned but I'd like to point another fact.

If you look at Arthur as a figure from today you'll see a complex profile

A Christian but has connections with Celtic pagan heritage
A Roman but at the same time British.
A savior, liberator (of britain against Saxons)
A monarch  resembling a tolerant figure to freedom for love even an illegitimate one(Guinivere and Lancelot issue he is much like Priam of Troy concerning that)
He was both a cavalier and an apprentice to a wizard.
A chosen one yet a doomed, cursed person committed incest

As to the question I believe there was a man that first shaped the mythos but that man has been molded into many shapes and have inherited too much. Some believe that even Charlemagne's existence has changed his cycle. The last royal christian conquerer image is said to be borrowed from him.

He evolved through the centuries and even in the last Hollywood film portrayed as a Sarmatian Horseman. Why not? His evolution has continued with every literary work.


Edited by Efraz - 24-Apr-2008 at 00:49
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 05:51
^ the first three profiles you mention can all be true at the same time, with different aspects being focused on depending on the source.
 
Being british and not germanic would make you 'celtic'*, probably romanised to some degree with a pagan background. Best place to look is the Welsh stories first.  i would think other localised myths have come up from this and added layers of christianity > medival morality later on - which may explain the later two profiles.
 
 
*justy using the term loosely PaulWink
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2008 at 20:54
No he doesn't...that's for sure.
He's been dead for a long long time.
Sry I couldn't resist:D:D
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 09:22
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

No he doesn't...that's for sure.
He's been dead for a long long time.
Sry I couldn't resist:D:D
 
He is not celtic, he is very naught boy.
 
I really really couldnt resist. sorry
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Posts: 49 		  Quote Dynbertawe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 11:11
But what if he was an original Brit and not a Celt?
Gorau arf, arf dysg.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 13:43
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jshoaf/arthurmalcor.html
 
The Alano-Sarmatian hypothesis proposes, more or less, that the original, historical Arthur was a Roman military leader named Lucius Artorius Castus, who served as commander of a group of Sarmatian warriors (from what is now Iran and Russia) for two years in Britain, around 182.  Castus probably led this group in battle several times, though he left Britain for other commands and eventually died in Dalmatia. The theory proposes that the Sarmatians in Britain continued to live there, possibly employed by the Roman military, possibly maintaining their nomadic ways and their own language, but at any rate telling their traditional stories with a new hero, Castus, called by them Artorius.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 15:40
Scythian/Sarmatian "Artor" (Persian "Arta") meant "Just" and could be used as a prefix for Iranian personal names, in Armenian there is "Ardar", for example "Ardar Davit" (David the Just) -> source, as you read here: "The Armenians use a cognate term in the word ardar, meaning "just;" and a host of Iranian names in Armenian, Artavan, Artavazd, etc., include the term."

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Jul-2008 at 15:42
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Posts: 49 		  Quote Dynbertawe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 16:10
In Welsh, the word `arth` means bear
Gorau arf, arf dysg.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 16:27
"Bear" is the name of an animal not humans! Wink  Seriously, if it was used as a personal name then there should be some other similar Welsh names, would you please some of them?
 

Arta- (Mid. Iranian ard-), representing either the Av. divinity Aša or the principle aša, occurs frequently as an element in Iranian personal names."[14]

Hellenized/Latinized names include:

  • Artabanos (Greek, Latin Artabanus, Modern Persian اردوان Ardavān), from *Artabānu "glory of arta".
  • Artabazanes (Latin) a variant of either Artabazus or Artabrzana
  • Artabazus, Artabazos (Greek, Latin Artavasdes), attested as Avestan Ashavazdah, perhaps meaning "powerful/persevering through arta"
  • Artabrzana (Greek), from *Artabrzana "exalting arta"
  • Artaphrenes (Greek), either from Artamainyu "spirit of arta" (phrene: Greek 'spirit') or a corruption of Artafarnah "[divine] Glory of arta"
  • Artasyras (Greek), from *Artasura, "powerful through arta"
  • Artaxata, Artaxiasata (Greek, Armenian Artashat), meaning "joy of arta".
  • Artaxias (Greek, Armenian Artashes), from an Aramaic form of Artaxšacā (Artaxerxes, see below).
  • Artaxerxes (Latin, variant Artoxerxes, Greek Artaxesses), a compound of Arta and Xerxes, the latter not being a part of the original Old Persian Artaxšacā, "whose reign is through arta" or "dominion of arta."
  • Artazostre (Greek), from *Artazaushri "who is in favor of arta" or "who takes delight in arta"
  • Artembares (Greek), from *Artempara "who encourages arta" or "who furthers arta."

Other names include:

  • Artavardiya (Old Persian) and Irdumardiya (Elamite), meaning "doer of Justice"
  • Arda Viraz, the "righteous Viraz" (having an eschatological connotation)
  • Ardashir, Middle Persian form of Old Persian Artaxšacā (i.e. Artaxerxes), literally "whose reign is through Truth"; actually means "Holy Kingship". [34]

Middle Iranian ard- is also suggested to be the root of names of the current day Iranian cities of Ardabil, Ardekan, Ardehal and Ardestan. [35]



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Jul-2008 at 16:31
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

"Bear" is the name of an animal not humans! Wink 


Well, not at all. Never heard of the Scandinavian name Bjorn? Or berserkar?

Further: Arcadius, Avonaco, Ber, Bernard, Dov, Nanuk, Orsino, Otso, Ursus, Ursula, Arcadia....and countless other names meaning bear or derived from bear.

Human names are derived from anything you could think of, including trees, rocks, animals, qualities and so on.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 02-Jul-2008 at 16:41
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 16:53

I agree, names of animals are used as Human names in Persian too, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar : The famous Sassanid spahbod, Shahrbaraz, who conquered Egypt and the Levant, had his name derived Shahr(city) + Baraz(boar like/brave) meaning "Boar of the City".
correction: Shahr/Share meant "Shire/County" in middle Persian, not "City"

It is interesting to read: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=boar&searchmode=none Boar: "O.E. bar, from W.Gmc. *bairaz, of unknown origin with no cognates outside W.Gmc." Question

Anyway I asked that you mention some other similar Welsh names.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Jul-2008 at 17:03
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Posts: 246 		  Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 17:09
I guess everyone was or is iranian somehow.Dead

Lucius Artorius Castus is the only known human being with the name in real life and was actually known to be in Britain as a Dux in fact.  Comes from the  gens Artoria,  which meant "plowman". His ancestry is pure Campanian. With the intermingling of Italics and Britons in Britain with the advent of the Roman Empire--so it isnt surprising the lanugages wouldve mingled and fused together to create a mytholigical figure. 

 Latin:

aro : to plow.
ars, artis : skill method, technique, conduct, character.
articulus : (of time) a moment, crisis.
artificiose : skillfully.
artificiosus : skillful, accomplished, skillfuly made.
arto : to press together, reduce, abridged.


 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 18:10

Scythian Alan -> Persian Airan(Iran) [l->r in Iranian language]

Therefore Scythian Plow is changed to Old Persian Prow which means:

to plow, according to Oxford Dictionary:
1 turn up (earth) with a plough, clear snow from (a road) using a snowplough.
2 (of a ship or boat) travel through (an area of water).

In modern Persian we have "Paro" and "Parudan": A Comprehensive Persian-English Dictionary

Paro: A shovel, an oar, to row, to travel by a boat
Parudan: To throw out with a shovel, to clean the snow

About English Plow: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=plow

plow (n.) Look%20up%20plow%20at%20Dictionary.com
O.E. plog, ploh "plow, plowland (a measure of land)," possibly from Scand. (cf. O.N. plogr "plow"), from P.Gmc. *plogo- (cf. O.Fris. ploch, M.L.G. ploch, M.Du. ploech, O.H.G. pfluog). O.C.S. plugu, Lith. plugas "plow" are Germanic loan-words


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Jul-2008 at 18:26
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 18:58

Please Cyrus, some Arthurs:

Arthrwys of Glywysing

Arthuis of Elmet

Arthuis of Ebrauc

Arthwyr of Dyfed
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 19:30
What do these names mean? They could be just some different form of Arthur/Artorius.
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 19:48
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Seriously, if it was used as a personal name then there should be some other similar Welsh names, would you please some of them?
I just answered your question!
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