Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

What if Mongolians horde landed in Japan?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
pekau View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Atlantean Prophet

Joined: 08-Oct-2006
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3335
  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if Mongolians horde landed in Japan?
    Posted: 28-May-2007 at 00:13

What might have happened if there was no divine wind that protected Japan from Mongolian hordes? What if the landing was a complete success?

Mongolain hordes... their strength was mainly horsemen with long ranged archors... but how effective would they be in mountainous Japan? Would Japan's heavily armed infantry wage guerilla warfare? Will Japan prevail? Or would they be conquered by Mongolian invaders like many other nations have been?
 
And after thinking about this, let's assume that Mongolians somehow conquered Japan. How would that might have changed Japan?
     
   
Join us.
Back to Top
Penelope View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Alia Atreides

Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1042
  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 03:59
The Mongols would've felt "right at home" in Japan. The army was used to "mountainous" regions, for example, the Steppes of Mongolia and the surrounding areas, were not that different from the ruggedness of Japan and all of her islands. If the Mongols had been able to land a well acquipt Significant force, it wouldve been "all she wrote".
Back to Top
pekau View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Atlantean Prophet

Joined: 08-Oct-2006
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3335
  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 16:42
I was under the impression that Mongolians flourished in grass plains, not in mountainous regions. This is the reason why some Southeastern Asian resistance were successful against the Mongolians because Mongolian hordes are almost meaningless in mountainous regions... where their superior mobility becomes restricted.
 
Besides, Japan possesses strong heavy infantry. I don't know if Japan's navy would have played vital role once the Japanese leaders realize the potential of it...
 
Oh, and this is assuming that all Japanese warlords unite against the Mongolian invaders for sake of convenience.
     
   
Join us.
Back to Top
Easternknight View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 18-Sep-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 109
  Quote Easternknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 16:59
Well, Id pit light mobile calvary archers over slow heavy infantry, too easy to be cut down and I don't think guerrila style warfare was even known in Japan at this time.
 
Should Samurai be mentioned?
didn't they only form around this period of time and were not in very large number?
 
Also it could have been possiable for the Mongols to bribe the various Warlords promising them to be the Emperor of Japan or significant wealth/power weakening Japanese resistance further
Back to Top
pekau View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Atlantean Prophet

Joined: 08-Oct-2006
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3335
  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 17:02
Originally posted by Easternknight

Also it could have been possiable for the Mongols to bribe the various Warlords promising them to be the Emperor of Japan or significant wealth/power weakening Japanese resistance further
 
I mentioned that we should assume Japan is waging total war against Mongol... so all Japanese forces are united. But sure, I'd like to see the other scenarios...
 
Guerrila warfare was known a long time ago. It would be typical for Japanese archors to hide in the bushes and rocks, and ambush the Mongolains with relative ease.
     
   
Join us.
Back to Top
Kamikaze 738 View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 26-Mar-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 463
  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 19:29
From what I see it, Mongols landing in Japan would have faced fierce resistance from the Japanese as they were well prepared for the Mongol invasion. The Japanese had fortified the coastal shores of the places the Mongols would land, which drove most of them back to the ships. The Mongols had a pretty large number of Chinese and Korean soldiers/sailors that were not very kine of Mongol occupation which lead to rebellions among the troops, that coupled with Japanese aggression would have forced the Mongols back to China even without the famous typhoon destroying their fleet and army. Defeat was inevietable (sp?) for the Mongols, the typhoon just saved the Mongols from having a shameful defeat which they blamed the typhoon. They were never really powerful enough to take Japan.
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 02:53
Well, Id pit light mobile calvary archers over slow heavy infantry, too easy to be cut down and I don't think guerrila style warfare was even known in Japan at this time.

Mongols didn't tolerate guerrilla warfare. That sort of resistance would have met with the extermination of the whole region.
Back to Top
Praetor View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

Suspended

Joined: 26-Jun-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 386
  Quote Praetor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 04:28
Originally posted by Easternknight

Well, Id pit light mobile calvary archers over slow heavy infantry, too easy to be cut down and I don't think guerrila style warfare was even known in Japan at this time.

During this time the Samurai typicaly fought as Horse archers.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


Mongols didn't tolerate guerrilla warfare. That sort of resistance would have met with the extermination of the whole region.


Tell that to the Vietnamese (though admittedly there Terrain offered a greater advantage then that of japan).

Regards, Praetor. 
Back to Top
Kamikaze 738 View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 26-Mar-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 463
  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 10:01
Originally posted by Praetor

Tell that to the Vietnamese (though admittedly there Terrain offered a greater advantage then that of japan).


Actually, they used the scorched earth tactic which destroyed alot of the land in which was needed for the Mongol horse to gaze. Thus the Mongols were defeated by weaken horses that couldnt right full strength. The same thing happened in Syria when the Mongols invaded that region.

P.S. However, civilians did put up some resistances... I guess you may call that guerilla warfare.
Back to Top
Praetor View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

Suspended

Joined: 26-Jun-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 386
  Quote Praetor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 03:22
The scorched earth Tactic could easily be constituted as a tactic falling into the category of Guerrilla warfare.

Regards, Praetor.
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 03:36
Vietnam doesn't have much grazing land anyway.

I don't know anything about the Mongols in vietnam, however attempted "guerilla" warfare (or the 13 century equivalent) by the Khwarzim Shah was met by the Mongols simply destroying whole regions of Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Back to Top
Kamikaze 738 View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 26-Mar-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 463
  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 19:16
Originally posted by Praetor

The scorched earth Tactic could easily be constituted as a tactic falling into the category of Guerrilla warfare.


I always thought guerrila warfare was like a hit and run tactic with traps and hiding places for the enemy (like in the Vietnam War). In comparison the scorched earth tactic basically destroy everything so there was almost nothing for the enemy or friendly troops to hide and supply for ambushing anyone...
Back to Top
Knights View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Location: AUSTRALIA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3224
  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 19:21
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Originally posted by Praetor

The scorched earth Tactic could easily be constituted as a tactic falling into the category of Guerrilla warfare.


I always thought guerrila warfare was like a hit and run tactic with traps and hiding places for the enemy (like in the Vietnam War). In comparison the scorched earth tactic basically destroy everything so there was almost nothing for the enemy or friendly troops to hide and supply for ambushing anyone...


Well I would say that as a general rule, guerrilla warfare just doesn't involve direct, set piece conflict or fighting. It is more about grand strategy. Because scorched earth isn't a direct confrontation with the foe, but an indirect method of hindering them, I would classify it as a form or strategy of guerrilla warfare.
Back to Top
The Charioteer View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 735
  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 19:42
Originally posted by Knights

Well I would say that as a general rule, guerrilla warfare just doesn't involve direct, set piece conflict or fighting. It is more about grand strategy. Because scorched earth isn't a direct confrontation with the foe, but an indirect method of hindering them, I would classify it as a form or strategy of guerrilla warfare.
 
The Japanese used the "scorched earth strategy" against Chinese was the counter-measure to communist led guerrilla warfare.
 
So a strategy is aimed at counter-measuring a guerrilla warfare is also classified as a "guerrilla warfare"?
 
Suntzu said to defeat the enemy without direct confrontation is the best is also a thinking on grand strategy. I wasnt aware he was referring to guerrilla warfare.


Edited by The Charioteer - 30-May-2007 at 20:52
Back to Top
Kamikaze 738 View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 26-Mar-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 463
  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 19:54
Hmm, I just never seen the scorched earth tactic being catagorized in guerrilla warfare from what I have been studying and learning about military warfare... Ermm I always seen it catagorized in a defensive miltary tactic, specifically military withdrawals strategies.
Back to Top
The Charioteer View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 735
  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 20:50

"Divine wind" is only a part of the contributing factor.

If the landings were quick they would had experienced no "divine wind", but the effort of Japanese resistance certainly delayed them.
 
Besides, how much the "divine wind"did to damage the invasion force is also not certain. For instance, during the second invasion, out of 24989 men Korea committed, 19397 returned safely to Korea, and not all the casualties were caused by "divine wind".
 
And both the first invasion and second invasion had flawed warships.The korean used poor quality and recycled woods to build the warships, while the Chinese design of the warships for the Mongol was more "deadly" than the "divine wind",  whether its due to meet required invasion date or other reasons, Kubilai's third planned invasion would again rely on Korean resoures as if he doesnt trust the Chinese after failure of second invasion.
 
While the Korean kept details of their casualty of second invasion, the details for Chinese casualty from official documents simply recorded that only few men returned.
 
There were 100,000 Chinese men and 3500 ships constitute part of the invasion force.
 
Either majority of these men and ships were destroyed by the "divine wind" or annihilated by the Japanese army, but there are no records to show the Japanese did so, and the numbers of shipwrecks under the Japanese seabed are hardly enough to match the invasion strength. There are alot of questions unanswered about the invasion and the role of "divine wind", the cause of its failure etc before tracking on with a succesful one.
 
To totally subdue Japan, they might need more men and resources than the last two of its similar attempts, perhaps thats why the third planed invasion of the island nation was even more grand in magnitude.
They had difficulty in estalishing a beachhead, they would expect more problems in complete conquest, and could be risks in internal relation while Mongol men and resources are committed on Japan. Which in reverse, might be the contributing factor, why they failed in the first place, and never carried out again after Kubilai's death.
 
 
 
Back to Top
Kamikaze 738 View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 26-Mar-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 463
  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 21:29
Originally posted by The Charioteer

The korean used poor quality and recycled woods to build the warships, while the Chinese design of the warships for the Mongol was more "deadly" than the "divine wind",  whether its due to meet required invasion date or other reasons, Kubilai's third planned invasion would again rely on Korean resoures as if he doesnt trust the Chinese after failure of second invasion.


I heard that the Chinese deliberity made the boats and ships weaken so that the Mongols cannot use it to its full advantage since the Chinese didnt really like the Mongol rule back then. However that idea sounds kinda weird since the invasion included so many Chinese, its hardly believable that the Chinese would make weaken ships to kill themselves along with the Mongols... it just doesnt really make sense to sacrifice that many for a cause (especially agaisnt the Japanese).
Back to Top
Knights View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Location: AUSTRALIA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3224
  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2007 at 03:35
Originally posted by The Charioteer

The Japanese used the "scorched earth strategy" against Chinese was the counter-measure to communist led guerrilla warfare.
So a strategy is aimed at counter-measuring a guerrilla warfare is also classified as a "guerrilla warfare"?
Suntzu said to defeat the enemy without direct confrontation is the best is also a thinking on grand strategy. I wasnt aware he was referring to guerrilla warfare.

Why can't guerrilla warfare be used to counter guerrilla warfare? Most of the time, it is the best method of counter attack.

Kamikaze:"Hmm, I just never seen the scorched earth tactic being catagorized in guerrilla warfare from what I have been studying and learning about military warfare... I always seen it catagorized in a defensive miltary tactic, specifically military withdrawals strategies"

I had never thought about it either, and I agree with your idea that it is a defensive military tactic. I just believe that could be seen as of a guerrilla warfare style...I have not set my idea in concrete though.


Edited by Knights - 31-May-2007 at 03:39
Back to Top
Siege Tower View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 28-Aug-2006
Location: Edmonton,Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 580
  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2007 at 14:47
i just dont think guerrilla warfare can work under the conditions of the time, i mean Japan was not exactly famous for its fire arms, what's the point of guerrilla warfare if a)you cant do much damage, you have to admit the mongols have better equipments and definitely greater in numbers. b)you can't run, where can you run?
Back to Top
raygun View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 02-Apr-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote raygun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 00:12
Doesn't Japan has high average humility throughout the year? How would that affect the Mongolian bows?
 
Also, will there be enough pastures for their horses to sustain a long campaign?
 
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.