Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
QueenCleopatra
Earl
Joined: 03-Apr-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 292
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Inter-Continental Travel possible pre-Colombus? Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 09:35 |
I hope this is in the right place!
I'm just curious because even though Columbus was thought to be one of the first Inter-Continental travellers there is striking evidence to suggest otherwise.
1,) We have Viking Settlements in Newfoundland. Up to a few years ago the idea that Vikings crossed the oceans was laughed among scholars
2.) Roman Helmets and weaponry has turned up outside Tuscon USA. Yet another impossibilty proved wrong. Also remains from a bay in Brazil suggest a Roman Galley may lie on the seabed there.
3.) A Temple in India has a statue of a Goddess holding ears of corn
4.) Peanuts have been discovered in acnient Chinese sites
5.)(my own favourite) Cocaine and Nicotine have been found in the bodies of Egyptian Mummies. There is also evidence for Egyptian occupation in caves in Australia and its rumoured the Grand Canyon
How else but overseas could these items have come to be where they are?
Its important to note that neither the Vikings or the Romans were thought to ventured beyond Europe untill the finds mentioned above came to the attention of experts.
And remember boats have been around for thousands of years so its not as though the technology wasn't there.
Edited by QueenCleopatra - 27-Sep-2006 at 09:52
|
Her Royal Highness , lady of the Two Lands, High Priestess of Thebes, Beloved of Isis , Cleopatra , Oueen of the Nile
|
|
Decebal
Arch Duke
Digital Prometheus
Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1791
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 10:14 |
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
I hope this is in the right place! I'm just curious because even though Columbus was thought to be one of the first Inter-Continental travellers there is striking evidence to suggest otherwise. 1,) We have Viking Settlements in Newfoundland. Up to a few years ago the idea that Vikings crossed the oceans was laughed among scholars
|
The idea wasn't exactly laughed at, or else archeological digs would not have been done. The Norse (Vikings) were also in a good position to reach America compared to other people, since they took a route which allowed them to hop through the North Atlantic which made for much shorter trips. As well, they had proven techonology for ocean-going boats, something which most other civilizations didn't.
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
2.) Roman Helmets and weaponry has turned up outside Tuscon USA. Yet another impossibilty proved wrong. Also remains from a bay in Brazil suggest a Roman Galley may lie on the seabed there. |
To my knowledge, these finds are hoaxes. Think about it: why would a Roman helmet turn up in Tucson, out of all places? I mean, had it been Virginia or somewhere in the Carribean, it would have made more sense, but Tucson?
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
3.) A Temple in India has a statue of a Goddess holding ears of corn |
We can't say for certainty that it is corn and not something else. If corn was common in India, why is there only one piece of dubious evidence to back up its existence?
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
4.) Peanuts have been discovered in acnient Chinese sites |
Do you have a source for this?
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
5.)(my own favourite) Cocaine and Nicotine have been found in the bodies of Egyptian Mummies. There is also evidence for Egyptian occupation in caves in Australia and its rumoured the Grand Canyon |
Read the following article on this. The presence of nicotine can be explained by two factors: 1. There are otherr plants than tobacco which contain nicotine. 2. The 19th and early 20th century archeologists who discovered these mummies smoked a lot around them: the smoke impregnated the linens in which the mummies were wrapped.
http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=45
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
How else but overseas could these items have come to be where they are? And remember boats have been around for thousands of years so its not as though the technology wasn't there.
|
Remember that some of these items (Roman armor, old world coins, etc) could have easily come to the Americas in more modern times, and either lost and rediscovered or simply planted in order to obtain publicity. Most of these "sensational" discoveries have already been exposed as hoaxes, yet they continue to be cited as proof by various pseudo-scientists and new age writers. Take this type of evidence with a grain of salt.
As for boats, it is one thing to build a boat that can travel short distances in sight of land and something else altogether to build an ocean-capable vessel which can withstand a voyage of several weeks in potentially rough conditions. And then there's the whole issue of navigation (it's darn easy to get lost) and of motivation (how do you know that there may be something out there and you are not embarking on a hopeless voyage?
All this being said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There may be more discoveries made which could prove beyond doubt that other people were trans-oceanic voyagers. But we simply can't prove that based on the evidence available today. If we could, the scientific community would accept it, as they did with the Vikings visiting America.
|
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
|
|
QueenCleopatra
Earl
Joined: 03-Apr-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 292
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 10:21 |
Originally posted by Decebal
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
I hope this is in the right place! I'm just curious because even though Columbus was thought to be one of the first Inter-Continental travellers there is striking evidence to suggest otherwise. 1,) We have Viking Settlements in Newfoundland. Up to a few years ago the idea that Vikings crossed the oceans was laughed among scholars
|
The idea wasn't exactly laughed at, or else archeological digs would not have been done. The Norse (Vikings) were also in a good position to reach America compared to other people, since they took a route which allowed them to hop through the North Atlantic which made for much shorter trips. As well, they had proven techonology for ocean-going boats, something which most other civilizations didn't.
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
2.) Roman Helmets and weaponry has turned up outside Tuscon USA. Yet another impossibilty proved wrong. Also remains from a bay in Brazil suggest a Roman Galley may lie on the seabed there. |
To my knowledge, these finds are hoaxes. Think about it: why would a Roman helmet turn up in Tucson, out of all places? I mean, had it been Virginia or somewhere in the Carribean, it would have made more sense, but Tucson?
I don't know why there but thats the way it is. Why did the vikings pick newfoundland? Same response. But I'm sure they had they're reasons.
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
3.) A Temple in India has a statue of a Goddess holding ears of corn |
We can't say for certainty that it is corn and not something else. If corn was common in India, why is there only one piece of dubious evidence to back up its existence?
Thats my piont it wasn't. Its not indigenious so how'd it get there?
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
4.) Peanuts have been discovered in acnient Chinese sites |
Do you have a source for this?
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
5.)(my own favourite) Cocaine and Nicotine have been found in the bodies of Egyptian Mummies. There is also evidence for Egyptian occupation in caves in Australia and its rumoured the Grand Canyon |
Read the following article on this. The presence of nicotine can be explained by two factors: 1. There are otherr plants than tobacco which contain nicotine. 2. The 19th and early 20th century archeologists who discovered these mummies smoked a lot around them: the smoke impregnated the linens in which the mummies were wrapped.
http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=45
Ok but it doesn't expalin high almost lethal dosages found on the mummies. Even the most dedicated smoker wouldn't smoke lethal dosages.
And expalin the Cocaine? A South-Amercian not seen anywhere but there ( supposadly) before columbus
Originally posted by QueenCleopatra
How else but overseas could these items have come to be where they are? And remember boats have been around for thousands of years so its not as though the technology wasn't there.
|
Remember that some of these items (Roman armor, old world coins, etc) could have easily come to the Americas in more modern times, and either lost and rediscovered or simply planted in order to obtain publicity. Most of these "sensational" discoveries have already been exposed as hoaxes, yet they continue to be cited as proof by various pseudo-scientists and new age writers. Take this type of evidence with a grain of salt.
Have you proof ?
As for boats, it is one thing to build a boat that can travel short distances in sight of land and something else altogether to build an ocean-capable vessel which can withstand a voyage of several weeks in potentially rough conditions. And then there's the whole issue of navigation (it's darn easy to get lost) and of motivation (how do you know that there may be something out there and you are not embarking on a hopeless voyage?
All this being said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There may be more discoveries made which could prove beyond doubt that other people were trans-oceanic voyagers. But we simply can't prove that based on the evidence available today. If we could, the scientific community would accept it, as they did with the Vikings visiting America. |
|
Her Royal Highness , lady of the Two Lands, High Priestess of Thebes, Beloved of Isis , Cleopatra , Oueen of the Nile
|
|
Decebal
Arch Duke
Digital Prometheus
Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1791
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 10:55 |
As for the Vikings picking Newfoundland: just look on a map: it was the nearest inhabitable land area accessible by boat for someone coming from Greenland, as the Vikings were. Tucson on the other hand, is 1000 km inland from the Gulf of Mexico and more than 2000 Km away from the Atlantic seaboard. How did it get there? If the Romans had left it, it means that they went that far inland, which implies a familiarity with the coast, in which case we'd expect some Roman artifacts to turn up on the coast somewhere. And there's no such thing. There's also the possibility that these roman artifacts got there through a native trade network. But then again, why don't we have evidence of any other artifacts anywhere else? Finally no Roman documents ever mention a voyage to America, and Roman ship-building technology was actually very inadequate for a Trans-Atlantic voyage.
For the statue in India: do you have a picture, an article describing it, anything? How do we know it's an ear of corn and not some other object resembling it?
For the mummies: please read the article: it actually explains the tobacco traces very well. The cocaine presence hasn't been explained yet.
|
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
|
|
Northman
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4262
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 11:07 |
Whether cross-atlantic voyages happened or not in ancient times, remains open - but the possibility that it could have happened is proven long ago.
|
|
Ikki
Chieftain
Guanarteme
Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1378
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 14:07 |
I'm absolutelly sure that intercontinental trade took place, of course, between Asia, Europe and frica. Between Amrica and others, i say no, althought sure, was visited by the vikings. Romans, greeks, phoenicians... i doubt it.
|
|
Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 14:16 |
There are Inuit communities in Siberia-Alaska region which have connections on each side of the Berring Straits.
They could have transported goods and traded them and got them onto the Silk Route.
Sounds crazzy I know but could I have a point?
|
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
|
|
Sirona
Knight
Joined: 23-Sep-2006
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 62
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 14:31 |
Vikings ending up in Newfoundland makes a lot of sense -it's the Easternmost part of the North American continent. Even today, planes use that route; routes are made such that the plane spends the most time on land when crossing a big body of water due to safety reasons (possible chance of emergency landing) Okay, too much information, I hope no one's flying anywhere soon. :)
|
|
QueenCleopatra
Earl
Joined: 03-Apr-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 292
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 07:07 |
For the mummies: please read the article: it actually explains the tobacco traces very well. The cocaine presence hasn't been explained yet.(quote)
I did thats why I brought it up. I still the Cocaine veidence is compelling.
Between Amrica and others, i say no, althought sure, was visited by the vikings. Romans, greeks, phoenicians... i doubt it. (quote)
You completely contradict yourself ! You sya yes they are there but you don't think it could have been done.
|
Her Royal Highness , lady of the Two Lands, High Priestess of Thebes, Beloved of Isis , Cleopatra , Oueen of the Nile
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 08:05 |
If there really were intensive contacts between America and the Old
World, Old World desease would already have spread into America, which
in reality did not happen. Incidental contacts are still possible
though.
|
|
Imperator Invictus
Caliph
Retired AE Administrator
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3151
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 09:38 |
The fact that there were native American tribes/civilizaitons was due to the Bering straight - an intercontinental travel. You don't even have to look at evidence of vikings. People had already crossed into the new world thousands of years earlier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_migration_to_the_New_World
Edited by Imperator Invictus - 28-Sep-2006 at 09:39
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 09:45 |
I think the did find a Roman Shipwreck off the East Sea board of the US. One which was proved to have been a case of "blown off course".
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 12:14 |
Originally posted by Sparten
I think the did find a Roman Shipwreck off the East Sea
board of the US. One which was proved to have been a case of "blown off
course".
|
Are you sure that wasn't a post-Columbian ship? Russia hadn't even reached the Pacific yet in 1492.
|
|
maqsad
General
Joined: 25-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 928
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 03:25 |
You know if someone can explain to me why people are chattering about close to irrelevent proofs when the obvious is right in front of our faces I would appreciate the insight because it does truly baffle me.
Cayenne pepper, a native plant of the carribean(supposedly) has been in use in the Indian Subcontinent for thousands of years as a spice and a healing herb.
Also, who can explain the hawaiians! Did columbus sell them trans-oceanic tickets. No I don't think so. You could argue that Alaska was joined to Kamchatka through an ice bridge and a land bridge too before a big quake but there is a lot of ocean between hawaii and dry land.
|
|
Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 05:00 |
A few thins are for sure: cocaine have been sintetised in the early 20th century by a German firm thanks to very advanced chimic skills and knowledge. The fact that it can be in 2000 BC momies is just ridiculous.
For the Roman galley, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that one day a galley have crossed the Atlantic. After all it is quite easy provided you have the good winds and current. But one thing is certain: the crew was dead. Just think about potentially 3 or 400 men on a boat meant to travel no more than 70 hours and that for maybe 3 months and you'll see how ridiculous is it.
Actually many have tried to cross the Atlantic before Colombus. For instance the Vivaldi brothers from Genoa in the 1300's but none came back.
Then as maqsa said if trans-oceanic trips are to be found before Colombus it is defently in the Indian and the Pacific ocean. When you think that the Moaris' ancesters have crossed the all thing with very small boats more than once it is really amazing.
|
I am a free donkey!
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 07:27 |
Originally posted by maqsad
Cayenne pepper, a native plant of the
carribean(supposedly) has been in use in the Indian Subcontinent for
thousands of years as a spice and a healing herb. |
In that case it's probably native to India too.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 08:51 |
They are the same latitude, tropical.
|
|
maqsad
General
Joined: 25-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 928
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 09:57 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
Originally posted by maqsad
Cayenne pepper, a native plant of the
carribean(supposedly) has been in use in the Indian Subcontinent for
thousands of years as a spice and a healing herb. |
In that case it's probably native to India too.
|
Right but people keep saying colombus "discovered" cayenne chilli pepper in jamaica and then brought it back to the old world. However botanically the hot peppers of India and Central America are the same! And I remember seeing a documentary about some scottish castle that had a certain plant or flower carved into it that is native only to the New World. The carving was done before the 1400s!
|
|
rider
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 10:36 |
Polynesians
|
|
Vivek Sharma
Arch Duke
Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 01:00 |
Intercontinental travel was very common earlier. No reason to even thnk of linking Colombus to that. Notice the similarity between the scripts of the Saraswati civilization of India & that of the Easter island. They are virtually the same.
|
PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
|
|