Early history of Bosnia untill 1463 by V

State of Bosnia as a state has its roots in medieval time,probably after colapse of great Bulgarian kingdom under Samuel 893-927 and Croat that started to decline after Tomislav death in around 930,all the way to the death of last Croat king Petar Svacic on Petrova Gora in 1097.In 1102 and Paxa conventa,some Croat historian or theologian would say was joint partnership,and some like late Nada Klaic would say it was occupation of Croatian land,a new state would arise.Name of this state was to be called Bosnia.First written statement comes under Pop Dukljanin memories,Duklja was older state next to Bosnia,today Montenegro,where he is giving his description about its people Bosnjanin and their small state called Terra Bosna,or zemljica Bosna.Bosnia as a state was first mentioned in 1137 by then Hungarian lords of Bella dinasty which will rule Hungary through 1200 period and beyond.In its letter Bella is propoising a servant of Bosnia who will rule the country,under autonomous rule of Hungary,which was at this time,rules of most Balkans.
1137 is first important document that put Bosnia on map of indepent countries,that one ruler wanted to conquer.Few years after this mention around year 1141,powerfull and noble lord from Slavonie(Slavonia) Banus(Ban( Boric,title of avararian roots,usually meant to proclaim ruler under then powerfull Croatian kingdom emerged.He ruled 20 years though his rule was constantly being threatened by Bosnian serfs and some of elites that were opposed that foreigner and non Bosnian,like Boric was be  ruler of small but semi-independent country of Bosnia.In 1163 first attempt of taking crown and leadership from Boric was pushed by then young and later will be most famous Bosnian of all time Kulin to take the throne.Kulin Ban epic figure rose amongst discontent of Bosnian nobles and shame which Boric gave to serfs,nobles and how he runned Bosnian economy.At that time young Kulin from dynasty of Kotromanic,some will say their were goths and were first called Gothoromans,Joh Fine,while Serbs claim he was from Prijezda dynasty,meaning those who ventured away,prijezditi,as Prijezda was first Bosnian ruled before Boric.Anyways by 1180 Kulin managed to take controll of Bosnia and he started to develop his kingdom,without interference of Hungary,that strongly resented this decision,as they were the one,who actually put puppet ruller of Bosnia 30 years before..Kulin ban rule  strenghten Bosnian pride,and increased economy,as he brought Sasen miners,from Sas region,Germans to mine his shafts,and this is the times where literacy was introduced,economy grew and status of Bosnia,as literary center,along with powerfull army grew.Trade was also one of main fact of Kulin rulers,and his famous declaration with Dubrovacani,or Povelja Kulina Bana from 1189 is most famous Bosnian document,that is currently being held in Moscow,but soon will hopefully return to BosniaOld Bosniann saying goes ''od Kulina dana do dobrijeh dana''meaning country was in strong state at that time.By 1199 pressure of pope Innocentio Iv  to convert Kulin,as roman popes considered him heretic will forever brand Bosnia as paghan country,regardless of centuries that will pass.In 1203 and his famous sabour of Bilino,or todays Bilino Polje(Zenica),Kulin was forced to accept missionaries that will enter his kingdom and accept Catholic faith.At this time ill and unhealthy Kulin signed this just because Roman pope,promised economic benefits from this,and because Kulin at deathbed was scared pope might get mad and ally with HUngary,which they will do much often and later in history.Sabor at Bilino Polje,was first attempt to Crush independent Bosnian church and paghans was a whole and to introduce their version of Christianity upon Bosnians.Next year old Kulin dies (1204) and Bosnia becomes gripped with mini civl war,between Kulin son and other nobles who werent satisfied with their choice or rulers.

Next Chapter Bosnia between 1200-1300 impact and politics in Bosnian state

Ok,bad old Subici Bribinjski,who later took last name Zrinjski,but this is more of Croatian history and not Bosnian,were finally defeated militarily by a new and determined leader from family of Kotromanic.This was a new emerging strong leader that will lead Bosnian into 14 century and whose nephew will only increase borders of Bosnia later to come.Stjepan Kotromanic succesfully kicked ass of Subic both Mladen and Pavao and were later exiled into their domains.Sorry for being rude,but their asses were kicked,

Stjepan Kotromanic was leader that united Bosnian nobles,leader that expanded  Bosnian borders to east and west and leader that knew how to deal with Papal states,.Hungary,Serbia and Croatia,and not to mention all those nobles that might oppose him.He regulated equal rights for Serfs,and was even beloved by many other nobles,that somehow didnt get along with Bosnian rulers.From Zlatonosovic,Pavlovic,Altomanovic,Kopcic,Kacic and other nobles he gained respect and left them to rule their domains with knowledge he was a king.By 1325 he is taking land to the east from Stefan Deanski leader of Serbia who was to ruled from 1321-1330,that was succesor of Milutin 1281-1321.He took from Decanski and later from Stefan Dusan 4,or just Tzar Dusan 1331-1355 king of Serbia,area of Zahumlje,majority part,which is todays Hercegovina and parts of Lim region,or Polimlje,region in Eastern Bosnia.Pavlovic lords took Praca at this time from Serbia and increased their border where it stands todays with Serbia by 1320;s near Visegrad.On west he crushed Ivan Nelipac as he took Zavrsje and Donje Kraje from him and increased Bosnian borders tremendously.Those parts are Livno,Glamoc,Duvno and Grahovo,for those who dont know! Stjepan army was great but not the best,but later  will emerge as superpower in Balkans.Stjepan faced Dusan army in winter campaign of 1350-1351 when Dusan crossed into Bosnia just to crash and anex Bosnia.There is old saying in land of heretics,when Ban Zlatonosovic is going to Stjepan Court during that winter saying:

A cestiti kralju,Dusanova vojska je presla Drinu i sa 50 000 ljudi marsira, i vec je stigla do Srebrenika.Sta cemo sa takvom vojskom,cestiti vladaru.Neka Zlatonosovicu,kada Dusan hoce na bracu kristijane da udari,nek zna probudit ce se Bosanski seljak,svak ce stati uz svoju zemlju i vladar i seljak, nek zna Dusan da Bosna je druga zemlja,da nece moci nista Bosnjanu koji se bori za slobodu

Translation is let Dusan knows he wont conquer Bosnia as he conquered many other countries,He crossed river Drina in Winter 1350 with 50 000 soldiers,greatest army ever to be send against Bosnia,and Ban Zlatonosovic is asking Stjepan what should they do next?Stjepan is answering,trust me even serfs will rebell ,fight woman and children,Bosnian spirit will wake up.On plains of Srebrenik Dusan received first defeat in his life,as he was the one that crashed Byzantines and increased Serbia border all the way to Sallonica.That year Bosnians met Dusan again in 1351 this time in Bobovac old castle and town,once capital of Bosnian kingdoms,hardest fort in Bosnian kingdom,where he suffered another defeat.Old Stjepan will die same in -1353 and at this place a new Bosnian will come.He is without a doubt most famous Bosnian of all the time.

Bosnia from 1353-1391 Rise to Superpower and emergence of greatest leader Bosnia had!

Ok, i have bit headache from all the writing i did here.If here anybody has any question about pre-Ottoman Bosnia 1463 period or Herzegovina 1482 is welcome to ask me.Im bit tired from all those essays so il sleep a bit 

God piece of work Jack. Congratulations to your patience to write this much!

Interesting infos ... Only I wonder why this post is in Post-classical Middle East

 

Some nice work, but quite a few of your historical facts are wrong.

By the way i know place is called Arnautovici.There is one big stone, near by it says kings stone, so this is location of kings burial, which one, i wouldnt know?

Ostoja was burried in Zgosce near Kakanj?
Tomas in Jajce?
I believe this had to be burial crypt of old Bosnian kings(Mid 11-13 century.Rulers mainly expanded across Bosnia in mid 14 century , after Subics were kicked out in 1318, and after Kotromanic gained power in 1318

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Originally posted by violentjack Combantants were Tomislav king of Croatia and Simeun Bulgarian King 893-927

Phew, you finally nearly learned his right name! In all your previous mentionings about the Battle of the Bosnian Highlands, you were replacing Simeon with Samuil... 

Lets be open about this; i corrected you, you don't have to correct my corrections.

1) Pop Dukljanin mentions Bosnia, but it is not the first written document it is mentioned in. The first is the De Administrando Imperio. Every schoolboy knows that.

2) Once again, there is no WRITTEN mention of Bosnia before the middle of the 10th century; the fact that the Battle took place on the territory of modern Bosnia, does not mean that it was mentioned then. It is not even certain that it took place on bosnian political soil. By the way, could you, just for reference sake, tell me which author speaks of Bosnia in 919?

3) Ok, you were wrong about Prijezda. He was not the first ruler of Bosnia. Prijezda is the name of two (or three) bosnian bans in the second half of the 13th century. It is not known if they were memebers of the Kotromanic family.

4) I was not saying that the council in Bilino polje (or Bolino poilo, as the sources would have it), never took place. I said that no independent Church of Bosnia existed at that time. This is another thing that every schoolboy knows.

5) I think that Halecki could not have made such a mistake. Ladislav cannot be a deviation of the name Loius (Lajo�, Ludovic, Luis, Ludvig...), Ladislav and Louis are names in their own right. King Ladislav of Naples was certainly not the same historical figure as King Loius of Hungary. Maybe the translator is to blame.

6) The Tvrtko coronation is the most blatant example of serbian toying with Bosnian history. No contemporary written records exist that he was crowned in Mileseva at the grave of Saint Sava; only in the writings of Mauro Orbini (Il Regno degli Sclavi, Pesaro, 1601.), can you find that information. It is obvious that Orbini mentions the coronation of the king in Milesevo, but a few pages earlier he says that ban Stjepan II was buried in Milesevo - if we know that ban Stjepan was buried in Mile (other sources testify this), and that Mile are sometimes called Milesevo, and that all the other Bosnian kings had their crowning ceremonies in Mile (except the last one) - we cannot dispute it - the coronation of king Tvrtko took place in Mili, today called Arnautovići. The Dalmatia thing is out of the question - no-one mentions it.

7) I will not ask YOU ANYTHING from Bosnian history, becouse I simply know more than you. And I'm not joking.

The second post:

1) In Arnautovici, Mile of old days, you can find the foundations of the church of st. Nicholas, and the grave of ban Stjepan II, and of king Tvrtko I. No more bosnian rulers were buried in Mile. King Ostoja was buried in the church of st. Michael in Bobovac, as was his brother King Tvrtko II, and Stjepan Toma�. King Stjepan Toma�ević was buried in Jajce. His grave was dug out a long time ago and his body rests in the local franciscan monastery. No Bosnian ruler was buried in Zgosca. Older writers thought that the big stecak from Zgosca had to be a kings or bans gravestone, but as we know, nothing confirms their thesis. Especially if the ornaments and decorations of the stone seem to be of a later date, and we know the burial places of later rulers.

third post

I know you can't say everything on the subject in a few short sentences. But try to make as fewer mistakes as possible in the things that you do say. Ok? And please try not to act as if you know so much. I do not need to ask YOU questions about specific time periods, becouse you'll probably make more mistakes. Example, try to tell me something about Pribislav Vukotic and Restoje Milohna. If you do, I will consider you more adequate to give people lessons from Bosnian medieval history, than I am.

Ok?

Ok, its Soli, not Tuzla, but i worked myself into present day

Altomanovici(Soli)

Just wanna play like it was, at that time.



Ps:When i say to somebody loud, he knows more Bosnian history then me, is compliment.As i have read everything regarding this period, regardless who was author.I will hope you dont get insulted now, and start answering my questions

Here is how we play

11-3 you know something
11-7 you know a lot, but not better then me
11-9 i will admit you know history better then me (Bosnian)
11-11 My respect is there, if you answer every single question, and i will gladly say you know Bosnian history better then me.Some off those questions cant be found on Wikipedia, only in few selected books, that is