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Ponce de Leon View Drop Down
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Lonce De Peon

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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslim Spain
    Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 19:00
Can anyone here tell me what Muslim Spain was really like? With the arts, arquitecutres, and richess that they had?
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R_AK47 View Drop Down
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Posts: 468 		  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 10:48
Spain was much better after the Catholic reconquest.  Why are you interested in an earlier time period that was not very good? There used to be a large mosque in Cordoba but it is now a cathedral.

Edited by R_AK47
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 15:26

Ponce de Leon, I have an interesting article for you here:

http://www.muslimheritage.com/uploads/DialogueOfCivilisation s.pdf

I hope it`ll be useful for you

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Posts: 697 		  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 15:30
Originally posted by R_AK47

Spain was much better after the Catholic reconquest.  Why are you interested in an earlier time period that was not very good? There used to be a large mosque in Cordoba but it is now a cathedral.


What was good about the Catholic reconquest?

The intolerance?  Or the expulsion of Muslims and Jews?

And what was "not very good" about Islam in Spain?

The peaceful co-existence of Muslims, Jews and Christians?
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Posts: 0 		  Quote PersiaRules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 18:43

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by R_AK47

Spain was much better after the Catholic reconquest.  Why are you interested in an earlier time period that was not very good? There used to be a large mosque in Cordoba but it is now a cathedral.


What was good about the Catholic reconquest?

The intolerance?  Or the expulsion of Muslims and Jews?

And what was "not very good" about Islam in Spain?

The peaceful co-existence of Muslims, Jews and Christians?

Do you know how Muslim Spain came to be? An invasion of Moors (Muslims from Northern Africa). If we are to speak of intolerance, we should speak of unprovoked aggression by a Muslim country against a Christian country.

 chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

 >>

 
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 19:02

Guys, there was plenty of intolerance to go around, both with the initial Muslim invaders (who were a good deal more fanatical than their Moorish descendants), as well as with the Catholic armies of the Reconquista (whose succesors forcibly expelled both Muslims and Jews from Spain).

In addition to this, both cultures had lasting cultural achievements. Who would want to live in a world without Averroes (Ibn Rush), or without Columbus (ok, so he was Genoese,  still the Spanish financed him).

-Akolouthos
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 02:28
Even if it was better after the Catholic conquest, it was hardly bad before. Muslim Iberia was one of the primary centers of culture and learning in the earlier portions of the Middle Ages, and some of the Islamic world's greatest minds thrived there.

And yes, the Muslims conquered a Christian people there, but it is hardly like the Visigoth's weren't without their own share of unfair conquering. Heck, playing a major hand in destroying the Western Empire is enough to make me lose all my sympathy for them, in that respect.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 13:40
Originally posted by PersiaRules

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by R_AK47

Spain was much better after the Catholic reconquest.  Why are you interested in an earlier time period that was not very good? There used to be a large mosque in Cordoba but it is now a cathedral.


What was good about the Catholic reconquest?

The intolerance?  Or the expulsion of Muslims and Jews?

And what was "not very good" about Islam in Spain?

The peaceful co-existence of Muslims, Jews and Christians?

Do you know how Muslim Spain came to be? An invasion of Moors (Muslims from Northern Africa). If we are to speak of intolerance, we should speak of unprovoked aggression by a Muslim country against a Christian country.

 chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

 >>

Exactly.  PersiaRules speaks the truth.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 13:41

Originally posted by Mummer

Even if it was better after the Catholic conquest, it was hardly bad before. Muslim Iberia was one of the primary centers of culture and learning in the earlier portions of the Middle Ages, and some of the Islamic world's greatest minds thrived there.

Thats all a bunch of islamic propaganda.  I wouldn't have wanted to live there at that time.
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Posts: 778 		  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 14:27
Originally posted by R_AK47

Originally posted by Mummer

Even if it was better after the Catholic conquest, it was hardly bad before. Muslim Iberia was one of the primary centers of culture and learning in the earlier portions of the Middle Ages, and some of the Islamic world's greatest minds thrived there.

Thats all a bunch of islamic propaganda.  I wouldn't have wanted to live there at that time.

 

Dear AK47 the Reconquista ended in AD 1492, so more fairplay please

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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 14:37

Originally posted by R_AK47


Originally posted by Mummer

Even if it was better after the Catholic conquest, it was hardly bad before. Muslim Iberia was one of the primary centers of culture and learning in the earlier portions of the Middle Ages, and some of the Islamic world's greatest minds thrived there.

Thats all a bunch of islamic propaganda.  I wouldn't have wanted to live there at that time.

Now, R_AK47, I am not muslim, but I do admire the merits of the Arab civilization in Spain. Cordoba during the early Middle Ages was certainly one of the greatest cities of Europe, second only to Constantinople in splendor and population. It may have had as many as half a million inhabitants, at a time when Paris, the leading city of Christian Western Europe barely had 50000. In fact, in the 10th century, it probably was the largest city in the world, which was indicative of the economic strength of the Cordoba Caliphate. Notable intellectual figures of muslim Spain include Ibn Rushd (Averroes) and Maimonides. Speaking of Maimonides, perhaps the greatest Jewish intellectual of all time, the muslims in Spain were a lot more tolerant of the jews than the christians ever were. Cordoba had a library with 400,000 volumes, at a time when a dozen books was considered a large collection in the rest of Western Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes

Check the link below for an article on the Cordoba Caliphate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph_of_Cordoba

You take a look at the Great Mosque in Cordoba, or at the Alhambra palace in Granada and tell me if the Caliphate of Cordoba was not one of the great civilizations of Europe. In truth, this civilization was largely overlooked until recently by western historians. I suggest you read up more on it before you make such statements as "this is all a bunch of Islamic propaganda".
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 14:44
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Guys, there was plenty of intolerance to go around, both with the initial Muslim invaders (who were a good deal more fanatical than their Moorish descendants), as well as with the Catholic armies of the Reconquista (whose succesors forcibly expelled both Muslims and Jews from Spain).


In addition to this, both cultures had lasting cultural achievements. Who would want to live in a world without Averroes (Ibn Rush), or without Columbus (ok, so he was Genoese, still the Spanish financed him).


-Akolouthos



Actually I believe there is evidence to state that Colombus was actually a spaniard. I cannot back this up, but I remember seeing it somewhere (i think the history channel or discovery channel) that Colombus was Spanish but went to create a new identity in Italy for security reasons.

Back to Muslim Spain, it is really overlooked. I believe it is just the predjudice of christians against muslims that made some of the people say what they say. (I am not naming names). But if we cast that aside we can truly look at the wonders that the muslims have brought to Spain. Their influences still affect Spain, for instance the dances like the Salsa and Tango? Which are highley revered throughout the world for its form and beauty. Who do we have to thank for that?
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Posts: 606 		  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 04:48

Salsa and Tango? To my knowledge Arabs or muslim culture has nothing to do with Salsa and Tango. Its origins are from Cuba, or a mix of "latin" flavor with african drums in which africans were taken over to the caribbean.

The muslims did contribute many things in the region of Iberia but it did wage war unprovoked. It was only a matter of time till they were displaced. 
Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.
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Posts: 817 		  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 17:25
 Alhambra palace is absolutely amazing go visit it wonderful archetecure
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 17:39
SOrry, you are right the salsa and Tango are not Spain invented. But i remember from somewhere that the moors influenced a dance in Spain that is popular all over latin-america
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Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 19:05
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

SOrry, you are right the salsa and Tango are not Spain invented. But i remember from somewhere that the moors influenced a dance in Spain that is popular all over latin-america



I'm sure you are talking about "Flamenco"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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Posts: 468 		  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 23:09

Originally posted by Ponce de Leon


Back to Muslim Spain, it is really overlooked. I believe it is just the predjudice of christians against muslims that made some of the people say what they say. (I am not naming names). But if we cast that aside we can truly look at the wonders that the muslims have brought to Spain. Their influences still affect Spain, for instance the dances like the Salsa and Tango? Which are highley revered throughout the world for its form and beauty. Who do we have to thank for that?

And what are these muslim "wonders" that you speak of Ponce, because I have not heard of any or seen anyone post any examples of any in this thread yet.  Also, muslims have nothing to do with the Salsa or Tango dance.
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Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2006 at 01:11

Originally posted by Mira

Originally posted by R_AK47

Spain was much better after the Catholic reconquest.  Why are you interested in an earlier time period that was not very good? There used to be a large mosque in Cordoba but it is now a cathedral.


What was good about the Catholic reconquest?

The intolerance?  Or the expulsion of Muslims and Jews?

And what was "not very good" about Islam in Spain?

The peaceful co-existence of Muslims, Jews and Christians?

What was not very good about Islam in Spain. Let me think: the fact that Islam was imposed by invaders.

To right the wrong, the invaders, alien to the land, were later expelled.

Muslim spain was an ignominy, since it stemmed out of the very violence that, later, the Muslims condemned when redirected against them.

What goes around comes around.

 

 



Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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Imperator Invictus View Drop Down
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Posts: 3151 		  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2006 at 02:19
In short, Muslim Spain was a revival of tolerance, science, and intellectual culture in Western Europe. Cordoba was definately one of the distinguished  civilizations of its time for its arts, learning and culture. In many ways, Muslim Spain was even more advanced than Byzantium.

Quetz, I suggest you go read about the history of Muslim Spain, since you seem to miss most of the points.


Edited by Imperator Invictus
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Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2006 at 02:57

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

In short, Muslim Spain was a revival of tolerance, science, and intellectual culture in Western Europe. Cordoba was definately one of the distinguished  civilizations of its time for its arts, learning and culture. In many ways, Muslim Spain was even more advanced than Byzantium.

Quetz, I suggest you go read about the history of Muslim Spain, since you seem to miss most of the points.

Did I? Or I simply excluded the points that are irrelevent or trivial to my argument. For instance if I say: "Muslims were invaders and a foreign entity to Spain and its profoundly Christian tradition" this automatically implies that all Muslim achievements later on are negated. Thus, there is no point of mentioning the latter.

No hostility intended.



Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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