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Ëperom
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Topic: The Proto-Indo-Europeans Posted: 27-Feb-2010 at 17:00 |
Hello, I'm from Buenos Aires, Argentina, this is my first post and I have some questions:
I've been researching about the IE (Indo-Europeans) since a while ago and I decided I should start with some books. Now, I don't really know which authors are the most respected ones in these area.
Does anyone know anything about them? It seems to me that Marija Gimbutas did some good research on them, anyone read anything from her?
Now that we have genetics, I was thinking that it could be a great way of finally knowing where they came from, but I did not find any group researching about IE genetics. Do you know any? Would genetics be useful?
Moreover: is there any ethnicy that is potentially related by ancestry to the IE? Maybe in Europe or the Middle East there are some.
Thanks in advance.
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Cryptic
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Posted: 28-Feb-2010 at 09:05 |
Originally posted by Ëperom
Moreover: is there any ethnicy that is potentially related by ancestry to the IE? Maybe in Europe or the Middle East there are some.
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Though almost all European Languages are Indo European, I do not think there are any European ethnic groups that are directly linked to the Indo European migration.
Maybe the question can be reversed i.e. Which European peoples do not speak an Indo European language and are therefore less likely to be direct or partial descendents of Indo Europeans?
In this case, it would be Basques, Sa'ami, Finns, Hungarians, Estonians and Karelians. We can probably add another people whose language (related to Basque) went extinct in southeren France during the late middle ages and the extinct Etruscans (I think that Estruscan, though unclassified, is not Indo European).
Edited by Cryptic - 28-Feb-2010 at 12:13
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 28-Feb-2010 at 09:42 |
There is a strong mythical belief among Iranians and probably Indians from the ancient times that the Proto-Indo-Europeans (their linguistic ancestors) were white-skinned and migrated from somewhere in the north to Iran, India and other regions, of course there have been always some nativist views against this belief, but on the other hand, there are also some mythical beliefs among Celtic, Germanic and some other European peoples that they also migrated from the south (like the Middle East) to the Europe, I think it is possible the Proto-Indo-Europeans lived somewhere that people already don't speak an Indo-European language.
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svimpie
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Posted: 28-Feb-2010 at 14:01 |
Good books on a proposed homeland (Urheimat) for Indo-Europeans are James Mallory In Search of the Indo-Europeans, Renfrew Archaeology and Language, Anthony The horse, the wheel, and language. There are ofcourse many other books. For a anthropological sketch and overview (both cultural and physical) John Day's Indo-European Origins is a no brainer. For the genetic part I think it would be better to search the web (Dienekes anthropology forum may have some on it, and I think Dienekes is a advocater of a Anatolian homeland for Proto-Indo-Europeans).
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Ëperom
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Posted: 02-Mar-2010 at 07:19 |
Thanks for all the answers.
Originally posted by Cryptic
Though almost all European Languages are Indo European, I do not think there are any European ethnic groups that are directly linked to the Indo European migration.
Maybe the question can be reversed i.e. Which European peoples do not speak an Indo European language and are therefore less likely to be direct or partial descendents of Indo Europeans?
In this case, it would be Basques, Sa'ami, Finns, Hungarians, Estonians and Karelians. We can probably add another people whose language (related to Basque) went extinct in southeren France during the late middle ages and the extinct Etruscans (I think that Estruscan, though unclassified, is not Indo European). |
Mh, alright. That's why think that genetics would be quite useful this time because we could analyze which ethnicy has the largest Indo-European influence.
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
There is a strong mythical belief among Iranians
and probably Indians from the ancient times that the
Proto-Indo-Europeans (their linguistic ancestors) were white-skinned
and migrated from somewhere in the north to Iran, India and other
regions, of course there have been always some nativist views against
this belief, but on the other hand, there are also some
mythical beliefs among Celtic, Germanic and some other European peoples
that they also migrated from the south (like the Middle East) to the
Europe, I think it is possible the Proto-Indo-Europeans lived somewhere
that people already don't speak an Indo-European language. |
The Indo-Europeans were indeed a fair-skinned people (much like anyone in Europe or the Middle East on that time), even with blond features, and what you say it's quite possible, yes. I was thinking that maybe a first, initial group of IE existed, but then they separated and formed different communities, that could explain the multiple theories about their origins. All I'm saying is that maybe all or most of the theories are right.
Originally posted by svimpie
Good books on a proposed homeland (Urheimat) for Indo-Europeans are James Mallory In Search of the Indo-Europeans, Renfrew Archaeology and Language, Anthony The horse, the wheel, and language. There are ofcourse many other books. For a anthropological sketch and overview (both cultural and physical) John Day's Indo-European Origins is a no brainer. For
the genetic part I think it would be better to search the web (Dienekes
anthropology forum may have some on it, and I think Dienekes is a
advocater of a Anatolian homeland for Proto-Indo-Europeans). |
Ok, I'll check all of those books. Thank you.
Edited by Ëperom - 02-Mar-2010 at 07:20
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Cryptic
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Posted: 02-Mar-2010 at 08:06 |
Originally posted by Ëperom
I was thinking that maybe a first, initial group of IE existed, but then they separated and formed different communities, that could explain the multiple theories about their origins. All I'm saying is that maybe all or most of the theories are right.
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Either that or the IEs were a collection of seperate, but related peoples like later day Celts. Language differences in the IEs similar to those existing between say Gealic, Welsh and Breton then may have led to the very diverse Indo European language family tree.
Another analogy might be the nomadic Cheyenne, Sioux, Crow, Kiowa etc. Native American tribes. These people, however, shared a similar culture but tended to have very distinct languages.
Originally posted by Ëperom
Mh, alright. That's why think that genetics would be quite useful this time because we could analyze which ethnicy has the largest Indo-European influence.
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I have been interested in this as well. I went to the Dienekes site, but their discussions seem to involve alot of specialized genetics terms that were difficult for me to follow.
Edited by Cryptic - 04-Mar-2010 at 08:25
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Ëperom
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Posted: 03-Mar-2010 at 22:41 |
That's probably true, yes, the IE may've been a set of separate peoples. As for Dienekes, it is certainly hard to follow sometimes, but there are some interesting things in his site.
This map for example: http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/ieorigins/colin_renfrew.jpg
Edited by Ëperom - 03-Mar-2010 at 22:42
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 02:45 |
Originally posted by Cryptic
In this case, it would be Basques, Sa'ami, Finns, Hungarians, Estonians and Karelians. We can probably add another people whose language (related to Basque) went extinct in southeren France during the late middle ages and the extinct Etruscans (I think that Estruscan, though unclassified, is not Indo European). |
I thought that Etruscan was believed to be related to, or descended from, Thracian, and was therefore Indo-European.
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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 30-Mar-2010 at 02:54 |
Originally posted by Ëperom
Hello, I'm from Buenos Aires, Argentina, this is my first post and I have some questions:
I've been researching about the IE (Indo-Europeans) since a while ago and I decided I should start with some books. Now, I don't really know which authors are the most respected ones in these area.
Does anyone know anything about them? It seems to me that Marija Gimbutas did some good research on them, anyone read anything from her?
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A interesting-looking discussion group on PIE and IE. I just thought you might like to check it out.
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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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Cryptic
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Posted: 30-Mar-2010 at 08:04 |
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania
Originally posted by Cryptic
In this case, it would be Basques, Sa'ami, Finns, Hungarians, Estonians and Karelians. We can probably add another people whose language (related to Basque) went extinct in southeren France during the late middle ages and the extinct Etruscans (I think that Estruscan, though unclassified, is not Indo European). |
I thought that Etruscan was believed to be related to, or descended from, Thracian, and was therefore Indo-European. |
I have read many theories about Estrusdcan. These include the Indo European connections such as Thracian as well as non Indo European such as an archaic Finno Ugaric language, Phoenecian and Rhaetian.
I think the difficulty in fully translating Etruscan (despite thousands of inscriptions and it being spoken in hsitorical times) indicates a non Indo European origin. My guess is that not only is Etruscan non indo European, but that it is Pre indo European such as Basque.
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 06-Apr-2010 at 01:53 |
Crypt, this is what I found about Etruscans from: http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/chron/chron2.html
"Despite many bright statements which can be found on the Web nowadays, the Etruscan problem remains with us, and their origin and their language classification are still unknown. If we summarize all that has been said and found about Etruscans, we can see that the majority of discoveries confirm ancient theories of their Asiatic homeland. Several historical facts, archaeological relics, words from Egyptian, Greek and Italic sources, some similarities between Etruscan and Hurrian languages, and finally the problem of the Lemnos Stele - all these are in favour of Asia Minor as the original land of Etruscans.
They came to Italy and occupied northern and partly central districts of the peninsula. Soon, due to overseas trading and contacts with higher civilizations of Phoenicians, Greeks and Egyptians, Etruscans acquired writing, invented their own alphabet and brought up their original culture, so unlike other cultures of that time Europe.
Linguists have been studying the links between Etruscan and other language families for many centuries already, but still little progress was done. One of the great mysteries of Europe still fascinates."
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 29-Dec-2010 at 05:03 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
There is a strong mythical belief among Iranians and probably Indians from the ancient times that the Proto-Indo-Europeans (their linguistic ancestors) were white-skinned and migrated from somewhere in the north to Iran, India and other regions, of course there have been always some nativist views against this belief, but on the other hand, there are also some mythical beliefs among Celtic, Germanic and some other European peoples that they also migrated from the south (like the Middle East) to the Europe, I think it is possible the Proto-Indo-Europeans lived somewhere that people already don't speak an Indo-European language. |
I dont know bout Iranians, but there is no mythical belief among Indians about some migrants or invaders from north and there is no memory of any migration. During the british rule the Aryan Invasion Theory was included in academics and was taught to students as a proven theory, even though there is no proof to substantiate it atleast in the case of India.This continues in many institutions even today,which makes it a newly created myth by british. None of the early Indian literature speaks about such a myth.Instead it speaks about a long presence of several generations on the banks of its holy rivers.Even genetical studies are attesting the accounts of the early literature ie an indegenous origin of Indian people.
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ranjithvnambiar
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Posted: 29-Dec-2010 at 05:16 |
Originally posted by Ëperom
Hello, I'm from Buenos Aires, Argentina, this is my first post and I have some questions:
I've been researching about the IE (Indo-Europeans) since a while ago and I decided I should start with some books. Now, I don't really know which authors are the most respected ones in these area.
Does anyone know anything about them? It seems to me that Marija Gimbutas did some good research on them, anyone read anything from her?
Now that we have genetics, I was thinking that it could be a great way of finally knowing where they came from, but I did not find any group researching about IE genetics. Do you know any? Would genetics be useful?
Moreover: is there any ethnicy that is potentially related by ancestry to the IE? Maybe in Europe or the Middle East there are some.
Thanks in advance.
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There are groups which study about the genetical identity of various ethnicities and here is the link for the same.I hope this will be of help to you
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chicagogeorge
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Posted: 23-Jan-2011 at 21:56 |
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