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Ince
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Topic: Iranian Languages Posted: 03-May-2010 at 20:03 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
I think Miller is right about the Kurdish word for "father", that is similar to Luri "Boa" and Arabic "Baba" but the word for daughter, as I mentioned in this thread: Kurds are German?:
In Greek gyne means "woman" but in Kurdish that is jin/zjin, in Persian zan and Slavic zena but in Germanic that is kwen/ken (English queen), so like several other words, "g" has been changed to "k" in the Germanic languages, but does "ken" mean "woman" in the Iranian languages too?
The original Hewrami/Gorani word for "daughter" is "Kenacha" ("Ken"=woman + diminutive suffix "cha"), that is similar to Sistani Kenja (Young girl, daughter), Tati/Talysh Kina (little gril, daughter), Gilaki/Mazandarani Kija (daughter), Bojnurdi Khorasani Kechek, Sorani Kizj, ... |
In kurmanji daughter is Keche/Dot and mother is Dayi/Dayik and Uncle is Mam. Kurds claim, Kurdish has alot of Hurrian words like the word for mother is Hurrian in origin.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 03-May-2010 at 22:13 |
I think Kurdish Dayi is certainly the same as Persian Daie but it never means "mother" but "a female servant who feeds milk to a baby instead of mother", am I right?
dairy
late 13c., from Anglo-Fr. -erie suffix affixed to M.E. daie (in daie maid "dairymaid"), from O.E. dæge "kneader of bread, housekeeper, female servant" (see dey (1)). The native word was dey-house.
dey (1)
O.E. dæge "female servant, housekeeper, maid," from P.Gmc. *daigjon
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 03-May-2010 at 22:51 |
This is really interesting that Iranians consider "Daie, aziztar az Madar" (Daie, dearer than Mother), for example about the Prophet Muhammad, you can compare Halimah, his Daie, to Aminah, his mother or Barakah, his foster mother in the Iranian view, maybe for this reason some Iranian people call their Mother, both "Madar" and "Daie".
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 02:45 |
I need the Persian translation for 'Beautiful Sister'. I'd prefer a short, punchy version if available.
My own amateur efforts using various online dictionaries have yielded me 'Ziba Baji'. Would that be the correct phrase? Or is there a better one?
Also, if anyone can give me the Persian translations for 'Huntress', 'Princess' and 'Warrioress' (i.e. female warrior), that would be great.
Also, a question: was Persian spoken to any significant extent in Constantinople and/or the rest of the empire of Byzantium - maybe as an alternative to Greek, perhaps among certain sections of the people - during the early to middle 11th century? That would be around the time of Emperor Basil II.
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 04-May-2010 at 03:06
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 05:23 |
I need the Persian translation for 'Beautiful Sister'. I'd prefer a short, punchy version if available. My own amateur efforts using various online dictionaries have yielded me 'Ziba Baji'. Would that be the correct phrase? Or is there a better one? |
"Ziba" means "beautiful" but "Baji" is a Turkic word, I think "Ziba Baji" is an Azeri phrase, the Persian word for sister is "Xahar", another word is "Hamshire" which originally means "milk shared", so can mean both brother and sister but it is mostly used for "sister".
Also, if anyone can give me the Persian translations for 'Huntress', 'Princess' and 'Warrioress' (i.e. female warrior), that would be great. |
There is no suffix, like English -ess, which forms nouns denoting female gender in the Modern Persian language, of course the suffix -dokht can be used form some words, like "Shahdokht" (daughter of the king) for "Princess".
Also, a question: was Persian spoken to any significant extent in Constantinople and/or the rest of the empire of Byzantium - maybe as an alternative to Greek, perhaps among certain sections of the people - during the early to middle 11th century? That would be around the time of Emperor Basil II. |
It seems to be possible, especially in the 11th century when Persian literature and poetry reached its zenith.
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kalhur
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 13:52 |
when i listen to turkish music from turkey i can notice that there are huge amount of persian words used. is this connection is due to having a persian speaking minority in turkey before the ughus migration or the turkish spoken by oghus were already so deeply mixed with persian from the begining before migration to actual trkey? for exemple the uzbak language is so mixed with persian that there are many persian words in nearly every sentence
Edited by kalhur - 04-May-2010 at 14:09
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Ince
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 15:58 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
I think Kurdish Dayi is certainly the same as Persian Daie but it never means "mother" but "a female servant who feeds milk to a baby instead of mother", am I right?
dairy
late 13c., from Anglo-Fr. -erie suffix affixed to M.E. daie (in daie maid "dairymaid"), from O.E. dæge "kneader of bread, housekeeper, female servant" (see dey (1)). The native word was dey-house.
dey (1)
O.E. dæge "female servant, housekeeper, maid," from P.Gmc. *daigjon |
It could be Dayik is similar to Persian one and some Kurds claim the words comes from the Hurrians, but I cannot find a online langauge list for Hurrian, I am not sure about it. Also many Kurds have different or multiple words for many things. In the Kurmanji langauge depends on the location of the speaker, for example nearly all Ser means head but also in some, my family also use " Kura" for head and it also means son Kur. I have even heard my family members refer to mom as Alek as well. Also Dot means daughter of a uncle/aunt in my familys Kurmanji.
Edited by Ince - 04-May-2010 at 15:59
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Ince
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 16:09 |
Originally posted by kalhur
when i listen to turkish music from turkey i can notice that there are huge amount of persian words used.is this connection is due to having a persian speaking minority in turkey before the ughus migration or the turkish spoken by oghus were already so deeply mixed with persian from the begining before migration to actual trkey? for exemple the uzbak language is so mixed with persian that there are many persian words in nearly every sentence
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I noticed that as well. I can speak Turkish and pickup the ones that are similar to Kurdish and know that they were Persian inluenced. for example " Her kez ne dede" " What did everyone say"
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Ince
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 16:17 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
This is really interesting that Iranians consider "Daie, aziztar az Madar" (Daie, dearer than Mother), for example about the Prophet Muhammad, you can compare Halimah, his Daie, to Aminah, his mother or Barakah, his foster mother in the Iranian view, maybe for this reason some Iranian people call their Mother, both "Madar" and "Daie". |
Cyrus, Tu and Shoma mean you in Farsi, are both used or is Shoma used more?
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Ince
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 16:30 |
Kalhur listen to Mahsun Kirmizigul, his a Kurdish born singer in Turkey, his very big in Turkey and also Ibrahim Tatlises who is half arab and Kurd and is the biggest music star in Turkey ever. Then their is also Ahmet Kaya who was born in my city of Malatya and was exiled , because he supported the Kurdish cause and died in 2000, before he had spoken out about the Kurdish problem, he was one of the biggest selling artists in Turkey.
Heres Mahsun Kirmizigul, the song was released in the mid 90s and he wrote it abot the Kuirds, and it means "The friendship song" and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQrBmJ-9PPk Heres him singing in Kurdish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40BJS2cxm5Y
Heres Ahmet Kaya, he wrote this song about the Kurdish struggle and songs title means "As we cry" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU0qlBOyP8w
This is my fav Ahmet Kaya song, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvBqMKvSl3Y
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kalhur
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 17:13 |
the titlte mahsun kirmizigul = gule ghermeze mahzun in persian the sad red rose in english . only the tittle itself is speaking about the influence of persian in turkish and turkish in persian, in my kalhur dialect the word "dyoat " is used for girl unlike kech in sorani and " kele" oer "kapol" is used for head. mother --- mameg or dayeg father .... baweg brother.... bra sister----- xwaisheg uncle from father side---- mamoo uncle from mother side .... xaloo son ---- kor daughter---- dyuat man---- piyay woman---- jen
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Ince
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Posted: 04-May-2010 at 17:28 |
Originally posted by kalhur
the titlte mahsun kirmizigul = gule ghermeze mahzun in persian the sad red rose in english . only the tittle itself is speaking about the influence of persian in turkish and turkish in persian, in my kalhur dialect the word "dyoat " is used for girl unlike kech in sorani and " kele" oer "kapol" is used for head. mother --- mameg or dayeg father .... baweg brother.... bra sister----- xwaisheg uncle from father side---- mamoo uncle from mother side .... xaloo son ---- kor daughter---- dyuat man---- piyay woman---- jen |
Those are similar to Kurmanji in Turkey, Baweg but we say Bav/Bove and sister is xweh And the word for Uncles are the same, and ,son Kur,brother Bira, women Jin
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 02:54 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
"Ziba" means "beautiful" but "Baji" is a Turkic word, I think "Ziba Baji" is an Azeri phrase, the Persian word for sister is "Xahar", another word is "Hamshire" which originally means "milk shared", so can mean both brother and sister but it is mostly used for "sister". |
Thanx, Cyr. So I could use 'Ziba Baji' then, I guess. Actually, I sort of made up the combination myself after obtaining, separately, the terms for 'beautiful' and 'sister'. It's for a little story I'm writing. So 'Baji' would also mean 'sister' in Turkmen then, right? Since Turkmen is also a Turkic language.
'Xahar' would be pronounced in Persian as 'Khahar', wouldn't it? As in 'Haxamanesh' = 'Hakhamanesh', right?
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 05-May-2010 at 02:56
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Emil_Diniyev
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 09:36 |
""Ziba" means "beautiful" but "Baji" is a Turkic word, I think "Ziba
Baji" is an Azeri phrase"-
There is nothing as "ziba" in Azeri Turkish. Its "gözel/gözəl". Bacı indeed means sister.
Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 05-May-2010 at 09:37
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 09:45 |
Originally posted by Ince
It could be Dayik is similar to Persian one and some Kurds claim the words comes from the Hurrians, but I cannot find a online langauge list for Hurrian, I am not sure about it. |
Hurrian is a very old language, even proabably older than proto-Indo-European language, for example I had mentioned in another thread that the proto-IE word *bhurgh (tower) has a Hurro-Urartian origin, so Middle Persian burg, Armenian burgn and proto-Germanic *burg come from this word, of course similar words can be seen in the Semitic languages too, like Aramaic burgin and Arabic burj.
Originally posted by Ince
Also many Kurds have different or multiple words for many things. In the Kurmanji langauge depends on the location of the speaker, for example nearly all Ser means head but also in some, my family also use "Kura" for head and it also means son Kur. I have even heard my family members refer to mom as Alek as well. Also Dot means daughter of a uncle/aunt in my familys Kurmanji. |
Kurds lived in region where ancient Gutians, who were probably a Germanic people, lived, I had said that there was no "L" sound in the old Iranian languages, so it has been usually changed to "R", for example Latin gelu (Cold) has been changed to English Cold (g->k) and Persian/Kurdish Sard (g->s & l->r).
The Germanic word for head is "Kulla" (g->k), the Persian word is "Sar" (g->s & l->r) but "Kalle" is also used (Kula means hat), that is really interesting that the Kurdish word is "Kura" (just l->r), that is similar to Persian "Kura" which means "colt" (just l->r) and of course "child" (Germanic Kult), like Kurdish "Kur".
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 10:13 |
Originally posted by Ince
Cyrus, Tu and Shoma mean you in Farsi, are both used or is Shoma used more? |
"Tou" is certainly used more than "Shoma", in fact "Shoma" is plural but also formal singular. You probably know that "Shoma" comes from Avestan " Yushma".
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 10:45 |
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
"Ziba" means "beautiful" but "Baji" is a Turkic word, I think "Ziba Baji" is an Azeri phrase, the Persian word for sister is "Xahar", another word is "Hamshire" which originally means "milk shared", so can mean both brother and sister but it is mostly used for "sister". |
Thanx, Cyr. So I could use 'Ziba Baji' then, I guess. Actually, I sort of made up the combination myself after obtaining, separately, the terms for 'beautiful' and 'sister'. It's for a little story I'm writing. So 'Baji' would also mean 'sister' in Turkmen then, right? Since Turkmen is also a Turkic language.
'Xahar' would be pronounced in Persian as 'Khahar', wouldn't it? As in 'Haxamanesh' = 'Hakhamanesh', right? |
I just know "Baji" is certainly a Turkic word, so it could be used in the different Turkic languages, about "Xahar", you are right it is pronounced as "Khahar" but is spelled as "Khwahar".
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Emil_Diniyev
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 11:23 |
"So I could use 'Ziba Baji' then"
Dardania, in Azeri Turkish, its "gözəl bacı".
Opposite to what Cyrus says, "ziba baji" is not an Azeri phrase, as there is nothing as "ziba" in Azeri Turkish.
Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 05-May-2010 at 11:29
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 17:31 |
Cheers then, guys. Great stuff.
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 05-May-2010 at 17:41 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
"Tou" is certainly used more than "Shoma", in fact "Shoma" is plural but also formal singular. You probably know that "Shoma" comes from Avestan "Yushma".
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There is a state (more like a region or province, but with its own hereditary sultan, we being a confederal monarchy) called Perak, in Malaysia, just to the south of another state named Kedah. The people there use 'koma', in their own local colloquial dialect, for the plural 'you'. I wonder if that had any link with the Persian 'shoma'.
Or maybe that 'koma' could have been a local adaptation of the Arabic 'kum' ('you').
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 06-May-2010 at 02:46
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