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oodog
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Topic: What if Tamerlane lived long enough to invade China as his plan? Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 02:30 |
Originally posted by Omnipotence
"Maybe a part of China, but not China as a whole.. "
I have to agree there. Sometimes the Chinese would just send tribute if they think it costs less than the war. Considering that both empires are very prosperous and powerful, I think that's what the Chinese would do(I give you this and that if you go away) right when they are in the border.
"he's not even mentioned in chinese history books unlike the earlier mongols, jerchens, kitans, tibetans etc..."
Actually he is. My friend claimed to have read him in a Chinese history book and he's planned invasion of China, which was stopped by his death. But that was a long time ago<like the 1970s-1980s>, maybe they stopped mentioning him now, I don't know.
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Tamerlane's plan was not just for economic purpose. He meant to convert all Chinese into Muslim through his conquest. So I don't think some tribute from Ming court could stop him. On the other hand, given the personality of Yongle Emperor,he was too self-esteem and bellicose to make such a compromise without a real fight.
As what I mentioned in my post, this topic is a hot stuff on Chinese military or historian wetsite. Tamerlane is more well known than what you imagined among Chinese, coolstorm.
(The portait of Yongle Emperor, Zhu Di)
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coolstorm
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 03:12 |
maybe in mainland china.
i'm positive that most people in hk don't know about tamerlane.
Edited by coolstorm
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Tobodai
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 03:15 |
either way though this would be a good match. Neither Timur or Zhu Di ever came to grips with an enemy as talented as each other. With both armies also being largely cavalry and somewhat Mongol influenced it would have been a great campaign no matter who won, almost makes my military history side wish it had happened...
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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babyblue
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 03:23 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
maybe in mainland china.
i'm positive that most people in hk don't know about tamerlane.
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most HK people dun know about a lotta things
BTW oodog...that's a great portrait of Judy you got there.
Edited by babyblue
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ramin
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 04:12 |
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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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coolstorm
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 04:16 |
Originally posted by babyblue
Originally posted by coolstorm
maybe in mainland china.
i'm positive that most people in hk don't know about tamerlane.
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most HK people dun know about a lotta things
BTW oodog...that's a great portrait of Judy you got there.
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yeah, most people look down on mainland cantonese, too, your fellow people.
is that what u want them to continue to do?
i don't do that however.
Edited by coolstorm
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���DZj�~�� ��������
�� �� �C �q �D �� �� �� �� �T �� �� �g �A �� �� �� �� �� �U �N �� ��
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babyblue
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 04:45 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
yeah, most people look down on mainland cantonese, too, your fellow people.
is that what u want them to continue to do?
i don't do that however.
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please...go ahead...
there is no such thing as "my fellow people"...that dun work on me...there's only me and everyone else.
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babyblue
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 04:46 |
Originally posted by babyblue
Originally posted by coolstorm
yeah, most people look down on mainland cantonese, too, your fellow people.
is that what u want them to continue to do?
i don't do that however.
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please...go ahead...
there is no such thing as "my fellow people"...that dun work on me...there's only me and everyone else... |
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oodog
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 08:00 |
Originally posted by babyblue
Originally posted by babyblue
Originally posted by coolstorm
yeah, most people look down on mainland cantonese, too, your fellow people.
is that what u want them to continue to do?
i don't do that however.
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please...go ahead...
there is no such thing as "my fellow people"...that dun work on me...there's only me and everyone else...
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Oh, bluebaby and coolstorm, r u 2 just "mix up the bones"? (you know this cantonese idiom)
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ramin
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 17:52 |
Hey we have the same idiom
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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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warhead
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Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 11:21 |
" My friend claimed to have read him in a Chinese history book and he's planned invasion of China, which was stopped by his death. "
Which is in modern books, the Ming Shi mentions nothing about Timerlane's political designs, simply because he was too far away to matter. Anyone studying the geography of the Taklamakan desert cwould know the difficultly invovled in crossing that frontier. As for Timerlane taking the whole of Ming in one campaign, its as ridiculous as the Ming sailing to Hermuz and land a troop there and march to Samarkand. Even Genghis with all that proximity and horsepower advantage with roughly the same forces that Timerlane set out could not take the Jin in two campaigns and he also had the support of the Xia as a right hand. Add to this is the deterioration of the Jin both militarily and politically and the fact that it only ruled the North. To take the South, a powerful fleet is essential, and there is little time remains in Timerlane's life to fight another half a century even assume he wipes out every Ming army that is sent against him, which is highly unlikely to begin with, since Zhu Di's army is known to have crushed the Oirats who deployed the same tactics plentity of times.
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rider
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Posted: 31-Mar-2005 at 10:06 |
If you were before arguing of the names he had then sometimes here he is called Timur Lonkur, but that was not the issue.
You two, three made me now interested in later Chinese history and i am reading few books what might specifify a little bit more excactlier if he might had won China that time, but i think he might have, as in war everything is possible, and if two armies, consisting of the same troops have collided, a defeat has quickly come for one half. I am trying to understand now who it would be in the Zhu Di-Tamerlane collision.
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oodog
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Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 11:10 |
For a huge country like Ming China, it was impossible to conquer it by only one or two vitories in the battlefield. Looking into the history, it usually took a emerging power decades or even generations to fully defeat the declining central regime and become the master of the Middle Empire after a series of bloody wars.
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Imperator Invictus
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Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 15:07 |
Tamerlane dominated everyone around him, but he did not fully conquer
his enemies. The Ottomans, Golden Horde, Delhi Sultanate, and Mameluks
were all defeated but were never formally annexed by Tamerlane.
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Seko
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Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 15:09 |
Tamerlane would have won any battle against the Ming. He would not have kept the country though. He was a lousy statesman.
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Temujin
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Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 15:14 |
personally, i would like to imagine that Timurs China-campaign would have looked similar to Napoleons Russian campaign
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erwin
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Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 13:00 |
I think Timur would have conquered Beijing. His army was the best in
the world of his time. He had even defeated the "Sword of Islam", the
Osman sultan Bajazid I in the famous battle of Ankara. He had no enemy
left on his way to become self-proclaimed Conqueror of the World (see
his personal emblem, the three circles in a triangle, representing the
three know continents), except the Ming Emperor. Sure Ming China was s
formidable enemy. But numbers, which favoured China, do not always
matter. Military prowess are as important. See WW II. Anyway there
exist many parallels between Timur and Hitler. I think the "Battle of
Beijing" would have been a major battle of world military history. Not
only by numbers: 200.000 well-trained Turkic warriors (plus satellites)
against 900.000 less-well trained Chinese warriors. Both sides had at
their disposal cannons. It would have been highly interesting to see
how the two sides used them. After defeat, the Ming emperor would have
withdrawn to the south. Maybe Timur would have been content with
pillaging Beijing as he did with Delhi. But maybe he would have tried
to restore the Mongol Yuan dynasty in China. He saw himself as Genghis
Khan's heir. He may have tried to push south. But the Ming emperor had
a counter strategy. Possibly the greatest strategy of whole human
military history. Who wants to guess?
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vulkan02
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Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 17:56 |
Edited by vulkan02
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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vulkan02
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Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 18:05 |
Originally posted by erwin
I think Timur would have conquered Beijing. His army was the best in
the world of his time. He had even defeated the "Sword of Islam", the
Osman sultan Bajazid I in the famous battle of Ankara. He had no enemy
left on his way to become self-proclaimed Conqueror of the World (see
his personal emblem, the three circles in a triangle, representing the
three know continents), except the Ming Emperor. Sure Ming China was s
formidable enemy. But numbers, which favoured China, do not always
matter. Military prowess are as important. See WW II. Anyway there
exist many parallels between Timur and Hitler. I think the "Battle of
Beijing" would have been a major battle of world military history. Not
only by numbers: 200.000 well-trained Turkic warriors (plus satellites)
against 900.000 less-well trained Chinese warriors. Both sides had at
their disposal cannons. It would have been highly interesting to see
how the two sides used them. After defeat, the Ming emperor would have
withdrawn to the south. Maybe Timur would have been content with
pillaging Beijing as he did with Delhi. But maybe he would have tried
to restore the Mongol Yuan dynasty in China. He saw himself as Genghis
Khan's heir. He may have tried to push south. But the Ming emperor had
a counter strategy. Possibly the greatest strategy of whole human
military history. Who wants to guess?
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Whatever the case China's population would have surely dropped another
20-30,000,000 if Timur would manage to get to Ming's major cities.
A colored picture of Yong Le.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Omnipotence
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Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 18:53 |
That's almost half the Ming population. I doubt it'll drop that much.
As for being less-well trained...give me a break. Ming just kicked the Mongols out, they would naturally be well trained. Of course, that doesn't mean Timur couldn't have invaded China, I just think that the chances are fairly small, due to logistics.
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