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Parnell
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Topic: Holocaust Deniers Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 12:29 |
An emotive issue sure, but what do you think is the issue here? Should we lock them up for expressing an opinion, no matter how repulsive? Personally I think allowing these idiots speak in civilised discourse makes them ruin their own arguments. The more these monsters speak, the more we shake our heads and laugh at their absurdity. I have spent time just reading threads on Stormfront - My reactions were a bitter mix of laughter, frustration, anger and pity. No matter what we may think of their opinions, they have no right to be in prison for expressing them. What about you?
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Seko
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 14:05 |
To be fair with the notion of "free speech" of course they should say whatever they want. Who are we to marginalize a right? Even though such deniers are just that, deniers living in twisted denial, they have a right to their opinion don't they?
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xristar
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 14:07 |
People should not be persecuted for thier ideas. That's pure fascism. Yet, it happens in several european countries when it comes to the holocaust.
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Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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Seko
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 14:07 |
I would also like to add that in practical reality every country and union has a right to legislate types of speech as they see fit.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 14:15 |
I do not agree to prosecuting people for expressing denial of the
Holocaust. The evidence of the truth weighs against them in open and
honest discourse, that it enough.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 16:00 |
Although I am in favor of feedom of speech, I do believe that freedom of one individual's speech is to a certain extent limited by the freedom of others to not being insulted, discriminated or damaged. With regards to the holocaust, I do believe we cannot put people in prison for denying it, as it is not a crime to express your belief. But I do think that anyone who is hurt by these people, such as survivors of the holocaust are welcome to sue these people for slander or abuse.
It is in fact much the same as with popular opinions on Islam and muslims. You are allowed to be critical, but when you offend or discriminate, you are liable for that. I dont know about other countries, but we have the right not to be discriminated against as the first law of the constitution. Therefore, discrimination is a crime. Slander on the other hand is civil law, and anyone who feels slandered can sue the offender for it.
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Theodore Felix
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 16:39 |
The problem I have with Holocaust deniers is that 99% of the time they deny it purely for particular ideological or political reasons. Whether they wish to justify sick Nazi beliefs or to discredit Israel. In most occasions, a Holocaust denier follows up the denial with a tirade against Jews or some other order they attach to Jewry; or propose ludicrous, anti-Semitic based conspiracy theories or have open anti-Semitic feelings. The Holocaust is a recognized event in human history and something that really, based on the level of evidence for it, cannot be denied. It is a historical fact; therefore denying it is simply lying or just ignorant.
While I don't believe that people should be jailed for denying the Holocaust, I do believe that there should be some punishment for those who wish to propagate their hate-filled ideas to the masses in order to boost them.
Edited by Theodore Felix - 06-Mar-2008 at 01:41
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 17:55 |
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
I dont know about other countries, but we have the right not to be discriminated against as the first law of the constitution. Therefore, discrimination is a crime. |
It does not explicitly ban certain type of speech though, all it says is: All persons in the Netherlands shall be treated equally
in equal circumstances. Discrimination on the grounds of religion,
belief, political opinion, race, or sex or on any other grounds
whatsoever shall not be permitted.Which to me means that is is not allowed to give people a better or worse treatment based on their religion, belief, etc., but not that you are not allowed to insult them. I don't think insulting is a kind of discrimination. As for Holocaust deniers, I agree with what most people have said here. Letting them speak is the best way to discredit them. I even think making Holocaust denial illegal will even make it more appealing to certain groups (you know, the "If you can't deny it surely they have something to hide" kind of argument).
Edited by Mixcoatl - 04-Mar-2008 at 17:57
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ulrich von hutten
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 17:59 |
To deny the holocaust is like to deny the excistance of the planet earth.
As you might know, today it's accusable in Germany to deny the holcaust. It was a decission of the founders of new democratic Germany after the WWII, to curtal the ambitions of some die-harders to try to qualify the nazi cruel.
A specific German situation but an example for other nations beside Austria?
Does have it the same level like o deny the Armenian genocide, the deoingsof the Red Khmer? Stalin's horror or the genocide of the American natives?
Several centuries ago it was accusable to say that the earth is a ball. Is it a question of proportion of power?
No it is not. The truth will aways win,sure.
So , let the cretins say whatever they want but don't forget to disrupt their hollow brains with the power of the words, the power of the free speech.
Don't stop until the very last of these amyelencephala is sweeped from this planet.
Or, as another option, gather all of them at Buchenau, Auschwitz or somewhere else and let them suffer under the same terms like the victims of the nazis and their mymidions had.
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Seko
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 18:39 |
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
Don't stop until the very last of these amyelencephala is sweeped from this planet.
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You mean they are actually vertebrata? Must be the reptilian family I think.
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ulrich von hutten
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 18:47 |
Originally posted by Seko
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
Don't stop until the very last of these amyelencephala is sweeped from this planet.
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You mean they are actually vertebrata? Must be the reptilian family I think. |
just freaks
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Maharbbal
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 19:20 |
In France too there has been a law against the denial of the Shoah, which I find utterly disgusting. It gave the lawmakers a first taste of their ability to 'reform' history (a few years later, they were to decide that colonialism actually had a positive impact on the colonised countries during the 19th and 20th century!!!!).
The case of Germany might be slightly different as there was a real eduction that needed to be undertaken after 1945, but surely now is time for the country to let the past behind. Surely, nobody in Germany denies the Shoah but a bunch of die-hard idiots for whom the law wasn't made in the first place.
What is worst is that in France and I guess many other countries you actually have legal possibilities to ban Holocaust deniers (namely publishing wrongful statement, eulogy of crime, etc.). It actually does nothing more than setting artificially the Jewish community apart, as their Genocide is protected but not the others'. It also solely defines the Jewish community through a negative event instead of defining it for its positive contributions.
In every aspects I can think of, this type of legislation is wrong and harmful for a nation and democracy.
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malizai_
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 22:01 |
I see no problem with denying the holocaust, people deny aspects of history all the time, but truth almost always prevails and outlasts falsehood. I don't see why the holocaust 'must' hold a privileged(!!) position amongst genocides. 3.5 million neutral Cambodians lost their lives, everybody knows it, and no one is persecuted for denying it took place. There are many others.
What i do strongly object to is using any denial of such kind as a stepping stone to further a more sinister agenda; this is where the focus should be. By the same token I am equally against the milking of the holocaust for justifying and furthering of political agendas by Jews, as is common with lobby groups and Zionists.
Edited by malizai_ - 04-Mar-2008 at 22:02
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xristar
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Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 23:21 |
Or, as another option, gather all of them at Buchenau, Auschwitz or
somewhere else and let them suffer under the same terms like the
victims of the nazis and their mymidions had. |
I think the main argument of the people denying the holocaust is not that it didn't happen, but that it wasn't organized. That the germans didn't mass-murder the jews with gas, but they just let them die like millions of other imprisoned in camps people (russian pows, gypsies etc). And it's still ironic that a german speaks like that about 'the nazis'. It reminds me of a cartoon (simpsons was it?) episode when in a travel in germany the germans presented thier history with a gap between 1939-1945, and when asked they angrily replied 'we were all on vacation!'. As if you and/or your relatives were absent during the holocaust... And what the heck is the 'shoah'?
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Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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Justinian
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Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 07:17 |
^^ I remember that Simpsons episode. Clever writers.
My opinion is akin to the ones stated by most others here; Maharbbal and malizai especially. Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how misguided.
Edit: at least as far as the US goes, the laws in Germany/Austria are understandable considering the extenuating circumstances.
Edit2: I'm glad I saw Temujin's post, it was Family guy, not the simpsons. Whoops.
Edited by Justinian - 06-Mar-2008 at 05:18
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King John
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Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 16:59 |
Originally posted by malizai_
What i do strongly object to is using any denial of such kind as a stepping stone to further a more sinister agenda; this is where the focus should be. By the same tokenI am equally against the milking of the holocaust for justifying and furthering of political agendas by Jews, as is common with lobby groups and Zionists. |
Other than the establishment of Israel in 1948 what political agendas have Jews furthered by "milking"" the holocaust?
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Seko
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Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 17:27 |
Really King John? It's a cash cow. Milked every year in the most ingeneous ways as well.
44 Million USD for the Holocaust Museum; 200K and a "Moment" for our Vets
Israel Demands Say Over Holocaust Funds
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King John
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Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 18:02 |
Originally posted by Seko
Really King John? It's a cash cow. Milked every year in the most ingeneous ways as well.
44 Million USD for the Holocaust Museum; 200K and a "Moment" for our Vets
Israel Demands Say Over Holocaust Funds
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I'm sorry maybe I misunderstood what Malazai was saying but I took "political agenda" as a furthering of objectives put forth by an administration, governing body, or government group. What does the Holocaust Museum have to do with furthering agendas. It is a way of remembering the past that is not milked for political gain/furthering political agendas. There are monuments in Berlin to the Holocaust and the millions who died. How does the US benefit from "the poor me syndrome?" All the things that you have cited have nothing to do with politics or advancing a political agenda, they have to do with memory. A political agenda would be "these people committed these atrocities so we should fight them."
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 18:04 |
Hello King John
Well if kicking an entire nation from it own lands and extracting billions of Dollars of money to this day, Germany paid about 60 billion to Israel and Jewish organizations (including three nuclear powered military subs for free) despite the fact that Israel was created after WWII. Norman Finklestein, a son of Holocaust survivors, wrote a book about certain jewish organizations who are exploiting the Holocaust called the "Holocaust Industry".
Anyway, being a holocaust believer in a holocaust denying society and experienced lots of problems because of that, I dare say the denying the holocaust where I live, and you can generalize that if you want, can be classified into three groups:
The First groups indeed believe that the Holocaust did happen but argue about the real numbers. They say the 6 million is an exaggeration and think of a number ranging from 2.5 to 4 million. as far as I know, even doubting the number of people killed in the Holocaust is a crime in some European countries. This is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of people.
The second group denies that the holocaust was ever an organized event where people were dragged to Aushwitz and systematically gassed. They say people from all over the German occupied territories were killed and some groups like the roma nearly faced annihilation. they also doubt the real numbers and give their own. The supporters of this theory are also numerous.
The third and these are most fringe of the group deny there was ever a Holocaust and most of their talk is bout conspiracy. The problem with these people is they don't mind supporting known racists, who hate Arabs and muslims as much as or even more than jews, just because they attack jews and deny the Holocaust.
Al-Jassas
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King John
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Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 18:14 |
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Hello King John
Well if kicking an entire nation from it own lands and extracting billions of Dollars of money to this day, Germany paid about 60 billion to Israel and Jewish organizations (including three nuclear powered military subs for free)despite the fact that Israel was created after WWII. NormanFinklestein, a son of Holocaust survivors, wrote a book about certain jewish organizations who are exploiting the Holocaust called the "Holocaust Industry".
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Hello Al Jassas,
Well actually first they kicked out an imperialist power off of the land. From whom are they extracting billions of dollars from? Is it Germany? This is unclear to me. Is it possible that Germany has paid this money because it actually belonged to Jewish families before the Nazis took it along with numerous art masterpieces? This is how a lot of money is given from Germany to Israel and some of its citizens. I know about that book and if I remember correctly that book was very controversial and I think kept him from getting tenured at the University he was at at the time. Again I will ask how do Jews use the Holocaust to further a political agenda? None have answered this yet.
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