Battle at Kosovo Polje/Kosovo Field; 1389

Originally posted by Yugoslav May I ask what precisely is problematic/questionable in this lengthy threat???

The way it was presented. Not as a historical tract, but nationalistic pamphlet.

well, you put a lol smile in the end and your answer was really funny. Don't be too sensitive.. It is the destiny of all of the forums

Originally posted by Larus Originally posted by es_bih Originally posted by Larus Legitimate king of Serbs and Bosnia, you mean? ;)   Yes indeed, however, it still does not mean that "Serbs" applies to Bosnia now does it Certainly not! Concept of the nation is something rather contemporary and has nothing to do with the middle ages, therefore I'm not nor I ever will try to imply something like that here or anywhere else. Tvrtko belongs to all Bosnians regardless of their national or religios background, but that's another story.  This is going so offtopic- in order to correct that-  my ONLY point was, Tvrtko wanted to be the sovereign of the territories on the east and it was perfectly legitimate to the standards of the time since he was the closest living relative to the Nemanjic dynasty.  But he didn't have factual rule over the territories once controlled by Nemanjic dynasty. That is why he saw Lazarevic/Hrebeljanovic as a potential opposition. That's all I wanted to say. Cheers, Larus

And for more fun: the Hungarian kings traditionally held the titles of king of Serbia and king of Rama(=Bosnia).

Originally posted by Josip Originally posted by miki015 Our proverb say : "What belong to other we dont want,but what belong to us we will not gave to others!" Lies, so typical of a Serb. Centuries of your imperialism attempts speak otherwise. In last 15yrs alone, you have waged wars and had conflicts with most of your neighbours. Not only that, but you're also ungrateful. When Turks conquered Serbia and nearby regions, you fled to Croatia, and populated the lands which bordered with Ottomans. Instead of saying thanks, few centuries later, you started saying that was always your land and it should belong to you, and then you invaded us. Disgusting. And please spare us the nationalistic propaganda in this thread, no myth of yours will override historical facts. Your nation is the only one i know of in the whole world, which celebrates a lost battle as a national holiday. but,with faith in God,that Holy warriors and Martyrios block the way and protect the Europe... Croatia protected Europe 20x better than Serbia did, so what's your point? Serbia got thrashed and conquered, while Croatia resisted and was doing the contribution for centuries, even being called by Pope "antemurale christianis", the bulwark of christianity. Of course, tactics used were mostly asymetric, such as these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskok Originally posted by Bulldog I really cannot believe what I have just read, is this what is taught in Serbia about this war? Yes. And about many other things. Welcome to Balkans. This is the credo: "Repeat something 100x, and it will become the truth." Originally posted by es_bih You obviously are a Serbian nationalist How long did it took you to figger that out? :)))) Just look at how he presents the arguments: "it was 2v1, we pwnd Turks, and nothing can be known of this battle that says something bad about us... whooops someone else has historical data? I deny!" :)

Josip, you're accusing others of nationalism yet you carry the same vile and detestable bug in you: you just hate anything that is Serb, which is not unusual for a Croat, except that you can't see your own bias.
"Croatia protected Europe 20x better than Serbia did so what's your point?" Croatia protected Europe from whom? The Ottomans? Are you serious? Where were you at siege of Constantinople? That's where the bulwark was for hundreds of years, stemming the Arab and Ottoman tides so you today can speak Italian I'm not defending Serbia here but can you mention the battles the Croatians fought against the Ottomans? What were their losses? What year did they take place? After the blood Greeks,  Albanians, Bulgarians, and Serbs shed to stem the Ottoman tide it is ridiculous  to have a Croatian  claim that they did the most on that matter. Even Moldavians did more in that respect.
"Antemurale christianis?" Who? Croatia? Hah!! This is coming from the institution that sat back and watched Eastern Christendom get swallowed up little by little by the "infidel" and did NOTHING to assist (not to mention the 4th Crusade and the pillage of the Polis). I'm too polite to tell you what you can do with the words of the heretical Patriarch of Rome The only reason Croatia did not fall under the Ottoman sway is not because they resisted but because geographically it is located further West, too close to to Italy and Austria and from very early on it came under the protection of powerful hegemones, first the heretical Roman Patriarch, then the Venetians, and finally the Habsburgs (helloooo, WW II, Ustashe, FASCISM, or have we "conveniently" forgotten about FASCISM--Croatia is the ONLY Balkan State that can be characterized as FASCIST). You're too lucky to have been close to your Western European protectors throughout your History and thus reap undue benefits so don't get too cocky about it.
What we don't need on this forum are both Serb nationalism AND Croatian myth-building based on WEAK MEMORY of recent History.


"Better the Sultan's turban than  the cardinal's hat", any ol' time


Edited by konstantinius - 05-Aug-2007 at 21:16

OK, they fought. But my point about powerful protectors stands as is: Croatia has been privileged throughout its History by its proximity to the core of Europe and its Germanic/Hungarian/Habsburg/Catholic affiliation. In other words, Croatia is the West's pet child in the Balkans. Today the "miracle" of Croatian economy is, not surprisingly, based on German capital and investment. One should keep all this in mind before making grandiose claims of supremacy. 

hey all you people from Crotia,Serbia.none of you saved Europe.Ottoman Empire wasnt even an empire those times :)  She was just a Beglik state.who saved Europe was probably Austrians,Polish,HRE.Why do you use the word "saved" ? Ottomans didnt steal,didnt burn didnt done the things that steppe empires do.They are not Mongols ok ?

Originally posted by Perun You all went to far in analyzing The Battle of Kosovo. All of Balkanian nations tried to stop Ottoman Turks not "defending Christianity" like was proposed from Vatican, but their own homes. Bosnian king Stjepan Tomasevic begged for help, but none of Western Christian powers helped him. It seems that Ottoman empire at that time was strong enough to conquer eastern Balkans and huge parts of Hungary and Croatia. Ottoman troups (akinji's) often crossed Croatian and Slovenian border. Battle of Vienna 1683. remarked start of the Empires stagnation.   About Kosovo Battle 1389.; It is always the same,it all ends with the nationalism. The fact is that destiny of the Balkans was written on Maritsa in 1371. Kosovo 1389. was just an epilogue, when Balkanian nations tried their best to stop the invaders. Serbian nationalism used a Kosovo myth as a base for its "vengeful campaigns". But the real truth is that Turkish historians never describe this battle as important one. One of the proposed possibilities for sultan Murat's death is that Obilic killed him with the help of Murat's son Bayezid, who wanted to secure his right to throne (because of his brothers Savci, Yakub and Ibrahim).   I think that we in Balkans should be more realistic about our "great histories", our "powerful kingdoms" and such mythological theories...

[QUOTE/]
The Ottoman Empire was an Empire before it conquered any of the Serbo-Croat states.
[/QUOTE]
No, they were not. During the battle of Marica/Maritsa, local Serbian and some Bulgarian forces outnumbered Turks, but failed miserably, mostly due to the brilliance of Sahin Pasha. At that time Ottomans were truly just a Beglik and could not be termed an "Empire".





Edited by Larus - 04-Sep-2007 at 06:08

Originally posted by Yugoslav Originally posted by Batu hey all you people from Crotia,Serbia.none of you saved Europe.Ottoman Empire wasnt even an empire those times :)  She was just a Beglik state.who saved Europe was probably Austrians,Polish,HRE.Why do you use the word "saved" ? Ottomans didnt steal,didnt burn didnt done the things that steppe empires do.They are not Mongols ok ? The Ottoman Empire was an Empire before it conquered any of the Serbo-Croat states.