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Athanasios
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Topic: Was Basil II of Byzantium Evil? Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 20:17 |
Originally posted by Anton
"if he knew how to write"
"They were hired to do it.Didn't they?"
"Michael from Syria is not Encyclopedia Britannica"
"7.Do i seem to have neighbours as the Belgium, Finland, Holland Luxemburg and Swisserland? I don't think so..."
"Ambush is the most effective tactic of the weak and coward , "
"9.Well, actually only Krum and his Boyars knew how the skull of Nikephorus looked like...thirsty anyone? "
"12.Actually Skyloioannis did a crime over a carcass.nothing more , nothing less..."
"Well as far as i know your rebelions before Assen bros. were fiaskos."
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It seems you don't have enough respect to your "barbarian" neighbours. Go to learn their history and come back prepared. Especially your statement number seven is masterpiece. Thank you for it.
Are you sure you like history, Athanasios?
Do you have any prooves for the opposit? I'm opened. Yes statement n. 7 *1/2 was a masterpiece .wasn't it? Are you sure you don't like nationalist propaganda Anton ? |
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Anton
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 20:35 |
Originally posted by Athanasios
Yes statement n. 7 *1/2 was a masterpiece .wasn't it?
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This one == "I don't think..."? This is not a masterpiece. Not at all. This is, unfortunately, sad truth. What is really amazing is that I spend my time trying to explain you simple things
Originally posted by Athanasios
Are you sure you don't like nationalist propaganda Anton ? |
Like every other I had a lot of national myths in my head. Some of them are difinitely not true. Some of them are true and beautiful. Some of them are just facts butmake me proud. My task is to get rid of untrue myths.
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Athanasios
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 00:18 |
[/QUOTE]
This one == "I don't think..."? This is not a masterpiece. Not at all. This is, unfortunately, sad truth. What is really amazing is that I spend my time trying to explain you simple things
You didn't realy like the joke...
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konstantinius
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 14:04 |
Thanasi kalmare, mou fainetai oti merolipteis ligo. O Anton einai genika anektos stis theseis pou pairnei. Sto kato kato oloi esfaksan kai skotosan. Genika pantos oi Voulgaroi extisan dynato kratos poly grigora. Peran tou gegonotos tis Byzantinis epirois (glossa arxika, thriskeia ktl), ta kataferan poly kala apo monoi tous. Na sai kala, ta leme. Kostas.
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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 14:11 |
konstantinius, please provide an English translation. All discussions on these fora must be in English.
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konstantinius
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 14:14 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
konstantinius, please provide an English translation. All discussions on these fora must be in English.
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"Thanasi calm down, I think you are being a bit partial. Anton's positions are generally very tolerable. At the very end, everyone killed and maimed. Generally speaking, the Bulgarians built a strong state very fast. Byzantine influence granted (language at first, religion etc), they did very well on their own. Be well, we'll talk Costas." Apologies Constantine XI, I should've send a PM instead. Will do so in the future. Cheers.
Edited by konstantinius - 05-Feb-2007 at 14:22
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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 13:07 |
For those who wish to continue the discussion of the morality of Basil
II, this is the thread to do it in. But first, a few guidelines. Though
this topic may be a source of emotiona involvement for some members,
members who post here must be reminded to keep control of their
tempers. Discussions are to be scholarly, polite and to concern the
topic which the thread is about. Basil was a fascinating character and
his history deserves objective analysis, I am confident members here
are able to discuss him in a manner befitting a lover of history.
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Anton
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 18:29 |
No, I gave the example because of his use of the phrase, "barbaric act." I didn't mean that in terms of brutality. That's why I finished that thought with, "Quite unsophisticated indeed." Get it? Good, now I'm sure you feel rather stupid for telling me to learn Bulgarian history completely out of context and we can move on.
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Yet I didn't get it. I do not know whether it is barbaric action or not but It was not said that Krum drank from this cup. He forced others to drink from it acording to chronicles. Now do YOU feel stupid using information you are not familiar with?
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Anton
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 18:47 |
then positive adjectives like 'arrogant' used along side silly 'my big fat Greek wedding' type generalisations is not a negative opinion. |
First I didn't say it is positive. Second big Greek Fat stuff is Greek generalization not mine. Arrogacy in this movie is grotesque.
Whether you like generalization or not people often behave similarly. ButI will reformulate my initial point of view:
"Most Greeks I met are proud of their past (they have right to do so) but have sort of optimistic view on their history. All of them tend to excuse Basil II because his brutality does not fit in their imagination of Byzantine Empire as a civilization in contrast to barbarism of their neighbours." Are you satisfied with this explanation, Leonidas?
ouch! your very good anton . my language in-ability has nothing to do with this, as is your non informed view of where i think i belong. This post makes you look even more better than your last one |
I didn't get it. I am not sure you got it yourself.
Edited by Anton - 07-Jul-2007 at 19:51
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 22:59 |
I closed the previous thread precisely because of the mud slinging
evident in Anton's last two posts. Everyone stop it. Discuss the actual
topic instead of attacking eachother. Stop referring to the thread I
closed, I closed it because it was childish and petty. I can't be any
more clear on that.
Note: if members keep up the personal attacks rather than addressing the topic, I will give out formal warnings.
Edited by Constantine XI - 07-Jul-2007 at 23:45
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elenos
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 23:38 |
I have never heard of the incident before. But yes, that does sound creatively brutal. On the other hand what is there it dislike about Basil? Good old Bazza! One would have to be blind or one eyed not to like him!
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elenos
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rider
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Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 04:48 |
Originally posted by elenos
I have never heard of the incident before. But yes, that does sound creatively brutal. On the other hand what is there it dislike about Basil? Good old Bazza! One would have to be blind or one eyed not to like him!
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Well, nothing wrong for most, but most Bulgarians think of him as the worst enemy to what he did (not thinking that their fate could've been far worse)..
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elenos
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Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 05:16 |
There is a nasty
logic to this story. Killing the men would have been more merciful than sending
them back in physical state where they could not work at their former professions
It would seem the intention was for once able bodied men to become an economic
drain on the state that sent them.
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elenos
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 05:31 |
Originally posted by elenos
There is a nasty
logic to this story. Killing the men would have been more merciful than sending
them back in physical state where they could not work at their former professions
It would seem the intention was for once able bodied men to become an economic
drain on the state that sent them.
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Precisely. This mirrors what the Vietnamese did during their war with
the Americans. They designed mines and booby traps specifically to maim
rather than kill American soldiers. Dead men were out of sight. Men who
were returned served as a constant reminder of what lay in store if
resistance was again attempted.
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Lmprs
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Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 06:15 |
As for the original question, my answer is no, because I avoid using the word, evil. It sounds somewhat childish and naive. But if a person depicts Genghis Khan as a demon and considers Basil as an emperor who did what he had to do, he is a hypocrite.
Originally posted by elenos
There is a nasty logic to this story. Killing the men would have been more merciful than sending them back in physical state where they could not work at their former professions It would seem the intention was for once able bodied men to become an economic drain on the state that sent them. |
This is exactly what I am thinking about this incident.
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Anton
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Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 07:23 |
Originally posted by rider
Well, nothing wrong for most, but most Bulgarians think of him as the worst enemy to what he did (not thinking that their fate could've been far worse)..
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Most Bulgarians, as you can see from this topic, (including me) think about him as a good ruller and strateg although a brutal. What most Bulgarians oppose is existance of a street with name "Voulgaroktonos" in the capital of Greece. This most Bulgarians consider annoying and unworthy for a European Country. I already gave an example -- Greece itself wouldn't stand if there would be a street in Sofia with the name "Kalyoan the Greek slayer".
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elenos
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Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 07:38 |
Been
catching up on the history. It appears Basil, in the middle of a bloody war for
power over Eastern
Europe, was
in no mood to negotiate. In retrospect he could have shown mercy and cut a deal
with the Bulgars who were in a weak position after having lost a major battle. That
the opposing Samuil fainted at the sight of his returning men and died
two day later is an indication he would have been ready for a truce in favour of Basil.
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elenos
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rider
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Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 09:28 |
Originally posted by Anton
Originally posted by rider
Well, nothing wrong for most, but most Bulgarians think of him as the worst enemy to what he did (not thinking that their fate could've been far worse).. |
Most Bulgarians, as you can see from this topic, (including me) think about him as a good ruler and strateg although a brutal. What most Bulgarians oppose is existence of a street with name "Voulgaroktonos" in the capital of Greece. This most Bulgarians consider annoying and unworthy for a European Country. I already gave an example -- Greece itself wouldn't stand if there would be a street in Sofia with the name "Kalyoan the Greek slayer". |
What? The street is in Greece. It isn't in Bulgaria... it isn't like it really concerning the Bulgarians. Greece doesn't equal Bulgaria (I should also mention that Byzantium does not equal Greece). For me the fact the Greece has taken over another nation's hero and character is a larger problem, since Turkey is the successor of Byzantium logically thinking...
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Anton
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Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 11:08 |
I am not sure I understood you, rider. Could you please explain your point? Byzantium is not equal to Greece but Greeks played important if not dertermining role in Byzantine Empire at that time.
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rider
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Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 02:53 |
Well yes, but also the Carthaginians played an important role for Rome at the Second and Third Wars...
All I am saying is that cause Greece isn't Bulgaria, it shouldn't matter to you. I understand you'd be upset if it was a street in Bulgaria but it is in Greece. Pretty much the same if Greeks complained that Ankara had a Mehmed II street (I don't know if it has or hasn't although I suppose it hasn't got one...)
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