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Moustafa Pasha
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Topic: War In Afghannistan Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 16:33 |
The Russian Army with more than 100,000 soldiers was defeated and left the country in shame. American and NATO troops which now number approx. 60,000 are unable to defeat the Talibans, who recently swithched to guerilla tactics. My prognosis is unless more troops are sent in, victory will be hard to achieve.
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Dan Carkner
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Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 22:58 |
More than 100,000 then, since that didn't work ? I doubt there is a will to send that many more troops for a war that is increasingly unpopular..although then again, that didn't seem to stop the U.S. from constantly sending more troops to Iraq.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 00:26 |
Originally posted by Moustafa Pasha
The Russian Army with more than 100,000 soldiers was defeated and left the country in shame. American and NATO troops which now number approx. 60,000 are unable to defeat the Talibans, who recently swithched to guerilla tactics. My prognosis is unless more troops are sent in, victory will be hard to achieve. |
I can't agree with that. It was anything but not a military defeat. Soviet army have won all the major military engagements and performed all the tactical tasks. The casualties after the 10 years of war were only 15 thous. KIA. While combined Afghan casualties were about a million with several hundred thousands mujaheddin military casualtues.
The reason for withdrawal was simply the nature of the war. You can't win antiguerilla war, unless you are prepared for a very long military presence, scourched earth tactics and massive repressions against insurgents' supportive population. (actually this is now starting to happen in Afghanistan again) All this coincided with the Political cirsis in SU and the end of the Cold War.
Anyway, it was not a military defeat of the Soviet Army. I would say it was a strategic defeat of the Soviet Foreign Policy.
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Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 01:06 |
I disagree they lost at Khost ,a whole Motor Rifle divison was cut off. The fact they inflicted heavier casualties on the Afghans is hardly conclusive, the Axis inflicted 3 times as many casulties on the Allies yet they latter still won. The Soviets failed in their mission, which was to make Afghanistan safe for communism. That was a defeat a militray defeat, militray force failed to achieve the politcal objects set for it.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 01:31 |
No. It was not a military defeat; the same as Vietnam was not American military defeat.
All the tactical tasks were succesfully performed by the Soviet Army. Some succesful ambushes by Afghan's didn't change the military situation in their favor.
However despite winning the battles, Soviets were not able to win the hearts and minds of Afghans, this is the real reason for the failure of the invasion. Afghanistan could be peacefied only by massive violent repressions with even more millions killed.
Soviet Union didn't want to do it and it simply couldn't afford it.
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think
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Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 03:19 |
The Soviets lost politically an not conventionally.
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Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 04:11 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
No. It was not a military defeat; the same as Vietnam was not American military defeat.
All the tactical tasks were succesfully performed by the Soviet Army. Some succesful ambushes by Afghan's didn't change the military situation in their favor.
However despite winning the battles, Soviets were not able to win the hearts and minds of Afghans, this is the real reason for the failure of the invasion. Afghanistan could be peacefied only by massive violent repressions with even more millions killed.
Soviet Union didn't want to do it and it simply couldn't afford it. |
Warfare is a political action., and an inherently strategic one. If the milittary fails to accomplish the political mandate and achieve the strategic goals set it then it is a militray defeat no matter whatever gloss you put on it.
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malizai_
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Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 13:48 |
It is not healthy to make attrition comparisons without the inclusion of Afghan communists in the total Communist losses.
Sarmat12, you seem to impart the impression that the Soviets 'didn't' try scorched earth policies, and massive repression. With all due respect, the 1.5 million Afghans didn't die from malaria, and another 5 million left 'because of the' scorched earth policies in the rural heartlands. To the Soviet's credit they didn't destroy the capital Kabul, that was due to the Muj infighting.
In the end it was a battle of wills. The American situation is quite different, since the Americans are only engaging a very small segment of Afghan population.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 22:48 |
Originally posted by malizai_
It is not healthy to make attrition comparisons without the inclusion of Afghan communists in the total Communist losses.
Sarmat12, you seem to impart the impression that the Soviets 'didn't' try scorched earth policies, and massive repression. With all due respect, the 1.5 million Afghans didn't die from malaria, and another 5 million left 'because of the' scorched earth policies in the rural heartlands. To the Soviet's credit they didn't destroy the capital Kabul, that was due to the Muj infighting.
In the end it was a battle of wills. The American situation is quite different, since the Americans are only engaging a very small segment of Afghan population. |
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Only a tiny minority of Afghans participated in the fighting on the Soviet side. Their role and casualties were very insignificant. The schorched policies and repressions were small scale.
And again in this policies are not equal to military engagments per se. As for the military engagments Soviet army always prevailed, except for several succesful ambushes which were directed against Soviet supply units and not against main field fighitng units.
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Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 07:09 |
5 Million Afghans did not end up in Pakistan (a country they hated like poison) becoz the Russkies were kind. Scorched earth policies were used by the 40th Army since the beginning.
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pekau
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Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 23:34 |
Originally posted by Sparten
5 Million Afghans did not end up in Pakistan (a country they hated like poison) becoz the Russkies were kind. Scorched earth policies were used by the 40th Army since the beginning. |
I know it's off topic, but why do the Afghans hate Pakistan?
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think
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Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 00:16 |
Yeh i was just thinking that myself.
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Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 02:47 |
You should ask the Afghanis themelves. We have been asking that question since day 1.
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Laelius
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Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 00:12 |
Ethnic Tajiks And uzbeks seem to hate Pakistan with a passion to my understanding, but it seems that the Pashtun majority hardly recognize Pakistan as a seperate country.
That being said I don't believe the war in Afghanistan is lost, not by a long shot. Of course its obvious that victory has by no meants yet been achieved nor is it likely to be in the short run. What the US needs to do is cut its losses in Iraq and move to a containment strategy in the gulf which will allow the US to shift intelligence and military assets to Afghanistan. The US can't win this war decisively but it can slowly wear down the resistance movement through low intensity warfare inside Afghanistan with the help of renewed Pakistani offensives in Waziristan. Of course the US will need to shift its priorities here and provide Mr. Musharraf with the appropriate aid... and incentives. Essentially provide the nation of Pakistan with substantial amounts Economic and military aid.
Edited by Laelius - 03-Jul-2007 at 00:17
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DukeC
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 12:03 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Only a tiny minority of Afghans participated in the fighting on the Soviet side. Their role and casualties were very insignificant. The schorched policies and repressions were small scale. |
Rewriting history again are we?
The Soviets used chemical weapons and intensive bombing of civilians to depopulate large areas of Afghanistan to deny support for the freedom fighters.
Edited by DukeC - 07-Jul-2007 at 12:03
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Sarmat
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 14:52 |
Originally posted by DukeC
Rewriting history again are we? |
You don't need to remind us that rewriting history is the favorite business of YOURS.
Originally posted by DukeC
The Soviets used chemical weapons and intensive bombing of civilians to depopulate large areas of Afghanistan to deny support for the freedom fighters. |
I didn't write they were not doing this, so your remark is pointless here.
But the best way for you to impress us of course would be a new story from Mr. Litvinenko about "how Putin was involved in creating of gas chambers in Afghanistan etc."
Edited by Sarmat12 - 07-Jul-2007 at 15:37
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DukeC
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 15:31 |
Read Spartens post, millions of Afghanis didn't leave the country on a whim, the Soviets behaved in a truly brutal manner in an effort to back up the hopeless communist government they were trying to impose on Afghanistan.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 15:42 |
Originally posted by DukeC
Read Spartens post, millions of Afghanis didn't leave the country on a whim, the Soviets behaved in a truly brutal manner in an effort to back up the hopeless communist government they were trying to impose on Afghanistan.
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So what, what are you trying to prove I didn't see any new points. It is a well known fact that Soviet army behaved brutally in Afghanistan and hundred of thousands of civilians were killed.
Have you discovered this only recently? I'm really sorry for you...
Edited by Sarmat12 - 07-Jul-2007 at 16:06
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DukeC
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 16:17 |
The schorched policies and repressions were small scale. |
This isn't an honest representation of the war, I'm merely pointing that out.
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DukeC
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Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 16:22 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
But the best way for you to impress us of course would be a new story from Mr. Litvinenko about "how Putin was involved in creating of gas chambers in Afghanistan etc." |
The chemical weapons were deployed against civilians by helicopter and tactical air not in gas chambers. Not sure why you find that funny.
Edited by DukeC - 07-Jul-2007 at 16:23
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