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Topic: how can we eliminate racism Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 22:58 |
Originally posted by Cywr
Pinguin's solution sounds the most fun, however, you can't exactly force people to do that, and Brazil isn't exactly a bastion of equality either. |
You can force national identity well above interethnic differences. You can enforce "integration" in schools. Finally, in the same way you the movie industry has minority actors quotas, they should be encourage to promote stories that promote mixing.
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Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 23:01 |
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
...I live in the United States, and there is no "great divide" between whites and blacks. Sure, there are neighborhoods dominated by whites, and some dominated by blacks, but there are many neighborhoods will you will find both living in harmony. Your view of America is a more similar to what America was like during the Age of Segregation.
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Well, that's not what the world saw after Katrina hit New Orleans. There are lots of studies that show Blacks continue to be segregated in the United States. Also, that country is reluctant to intermarriage which is absurd because the U.S. is one of the countries that has one of the largest percentage of African descendent peoples on the Hemisphere.
Pinguin
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Hellios
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Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 23:06 |
Originally posted by malizai_
Yes rot is always from top to bottom. A policeman overlooking a beating, the police service not disciplining and punishing the policeman, the courts not convicting are all such rot, simply empowering the law breakers. Racist or not. Govt dont have to be rich. Look at Cuba, where the Govt follows the policy of preventative action in all spheres of governance. So prevention of crime, decline in health etc.. It works.
There will be the Ivan's of this world who are born with a natural disposition towards violence and chaos. Law enforcement is the answer. |
That's a decent example (Cuba) of how even a poor government has it's ways of enforcing the laws it want to upon it's people.
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Hellios
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Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 23:17 |
Originally posted by Sparten
Best way to combat racism is prosperity. Properous people don't fight, its kind of hard on the china and silverware. Which is why you have Toronto. However in cases of clear exclusion, like paris, you have the ghettos. |
Sparten is right about prosperity being a good way to combat racism, but he went a bit too far in calling it the "best" way. Any way to combat racism should be welcomed & not challenged, only I think the "best" way should be something that can be more easily achieved by all the races of the world. Prosperity is something that many places in the world are having (and will continue to have) a hard time achieving. Prosperous people are just as racist as poor people. Some people even believe that prosperous people are more racist than poor people, but I'm not sure about that.
Edited by Hellios - 18-Oct-2006 at 09:29
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Hellios
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 00:06 |
Originally posted by Sparten
Rich countries are something different, peoples are something different. |
That's why the approach has to be community based. Each country should combat racism by focusing on their individual communities. Some rich governments allow racial 'pockets' or 'bastions' to form within their cities. The governors of the city I posted (above) noticed this starting to happen years ago; the various ethnic groups of the city started forming their own racial pockets/bastions & the city was on it's way to becoming another Paris (in terms of racial segregation). The government started taking physical & legal actions; municipal governments (and their urban planners, law enforcers, demographers, etc.) started concentrating on ethnic integration. Physical barriers between some neighborhoods were destroyed, landlords were prosecuted for turning down people of different race, public schools adopted regulations whereby nobody's religion could be overshadowed by another's (textbooks were replaced & dress codes implemented), etc. The process can be discussed (in detail) in another thread. The result today is not liked by some.
Edited by Hellios - 15-Oct-2006 at 01:40
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Timotheus
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 00:12 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Well, that's not what the world saw after Katrina hit New Orleans. There are lots of studies that show Blacks continue to be segregated in the United States. Also, that country is reluctant to intermarriage which is absurd because the U.S. is one of the countries that has one of the largest percentage of African descendent peoples on the Hemisphere.
Pinguin |
If you trust what the world media says about America, you're in sad shape! (True or false: everybody is learning creationism in the schools of Kansas ) The elimination of racism has mainly to do with getting people to live with one another. "Education" doesn't really do it, you kinda have to force them to. Racism in the United States is in prodigious decline. There is virtually no racism between the various 'white' ethnic groups anymore. Racism against blacks was half-crushed in the Civil War, given a century for the effects to simmer, crushed again with the civil rights movement -- now, almost fifty years on, it's almost gone. Racism against Hispanics is stagnant, rising slightly due to economic reasons of "he took my job@#!" Racism against Arabs is fairly high, due to scares of terrorism. However, the levels of racism against Hispanics and Arabs compared with the level fifty years ago is remarkably low. Racism against East Asians is practically non-existent. Native Americans are either completly assimilated or remanded in poverty to the reservations where they can set up casinos and we can forget about them on weekdays. I think a great deal of what has caused this is what the old South was so afraid of: "amalgamation" or intermarriage. In three hundred years or so all Americans will be a light shade of brown, the way things are going. You'll be able to tell the neo-Nazis on the street because they'll be the only ones that look like Europeans. Another major factor, as Sparten pointed out, is prosperity. This is why Asians are not hated any longer -- they're respected because they're generally intelligent and well off. Any 'black' person who is intelligent and well off will generally not receive any racism from any 'white' person who is intelligent and well off. Among lower classes, divisions still fester. I write this as a 'white' person, and do not really know the state of relations between the non-white ethnic groups.
Edited by Timotheus - 15-Oct-2006 at 00:14
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Hellios
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 02:12 |
The United States has been making great strides towards the management of racism.
I've started using "management" because (for racism) I don't think the word "eliminate" is realistic (as it's unlikely to happen).
All Canadian students are taught about the American Civil War, when the Union crushed the southern slave states.
They're also taught about the Underground Railroad, a human network that helped tens of thousands of American black slaves escape & set up lives in Canada.
Map of some Underground Railroad routes:
Edited by Hellios - 15-Oct-2006 at 02:13
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 10:14 |
Originally posted by Timotheus
Originally posted by pinguin
Well, that's not what the world saw after Katrina hit New Orleans. There are lots of studies that show Blacks continue to be segregated in the United States. Also, that country is reluctant to intermarriage which is absurd because the U.S. is one of the countries that has one of the largest percentage of African descendent peoples on the Hemisphere.
Pinguin |
If you trust what the world media says about America, you're in sad shape! (True or false: everybody is learning creationism in the schools of Kansas )
The elimination of racism has mainly to do with getting people to live with one another. "Education" doesn't really do it, you kinda have to force them to. Racism in the United States is in prodigious decline. There is virtually no racism between the various 'white' ethnic groups anymore. Racism against blacks was half-crushed in the Civil War, given a century for the effects to simmer, crushed again with the civil rights movement -- now, almost fifty years on, it's almost gone. Racism against Hispanics is stagnant, rising slightly due to economic reasons of "he took my job@#!" Racism against Arabs is fairly high, due to scares of terrorism. However, the levels of racism against Hispanics and Arabs compared with the level fifty years ago is remarkably low. Racism against East Asians is practically non-existent. Native Americans are either completly assimilated or remanded in poverty to the reservations where they can set up casinos and we can forget about them on weekdays. I think a great deal of what has caused this is what the old South was so afraid of: "amalgamation" or intermarriage. In three hundred years or so all Americans will be a light shade of brown, the way things are going. You'll be able to tell the neo-Nazis on the street because they'll be the only ones that look like Europeans. Another major factor, as Sparten pointed out, is prosperity. This is why Asians are not hated any longer -- they're respected because they're generally intelligent and well off. Any 'black' person who is intelligent and well off will generally not receive any racism from any 'white' person who is intelligent and well off. Among lower classes, divisions still fester. I write this as a 'white' person, and do not really know the state of relations between the non-white ethnic groups.
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Exactly what I was going to say. Though education can play a part, if a person is exposed to a foreign culture, they will become more tolerant. Also, I have noticed many Asian immigrant families in my area, and they all seem to be very well off. Though there is not much racism in the upper and middle classes, there is much in the lower classes. Many of the poor class people can be pretty racist against Arabs and Hispanics. Also, as a 'white' person, I am not knowledgable of the 'race-relations' between blacks, Hispanics, and Asians. I dobut that there is much of a great divide. Maybe a person who is not from America and only goes by what he or she heres from the media, pinquin, can tell us.
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red clay
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 11:26 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
...I live in the United States, and there is no "great divide" between whites and blacks. Sure, there are neighborhoods dominated by whites, and some dominated by blacks, but there are many neighborhoods will you will find both living in harmony. Your view of America is a more similar to what America was like during the Age of Segregation.
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Well, that's not what the world saw after Katrina hit New Orleans. There are lots of studies that show Blacks continue to be segregated in the United States. Also, that country is reluctant to intermarriage which is absurd because the U.S. is one of the countries that has one of the largest percentage of African descendent peoples on the Hemisphere.
Pinguin |
I have had enough of broad general statements without providing references, or sources. Pinquin, I believe it is you who is the racist, and when you make a statement like " there are lots of studies" you had better come up with a bunch. And from credible sources, not Stormfront.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 17:24 |
Originally posted by red clay
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
...I live in the United States, and there is no "great divide" between whites and blacks. Sure, there are neighborhoods dominated by whites, and some dominated by blacks, but there are many neighborhoods will you will find both living in harmony. Your view of America is a more similar to what America was like during the Age of Segregation.
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Well, that's not what the world saw after Katrina hit New Orleans. There are lots of studies that show Blacks continue to be segregated in the United States. Also, that country is reluctant to intermarriage which is absurd because the U.S. is one of the countries that has one of the largest percentage of African descendent peoples on the Hemisphere.
Pinguin |
I have had enough of broad general statements without providing references, or sources. Pinquin, I believe it is you who is the racist, and when you make a statement like " there are lots of studies" you had better come up with a bunch. And from credible sources, not Stormfront. |
Yeah, I believe it is especially hard for pinquin to argue that American society is segregated when three people who live in that society disagree with him.
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hugoestr
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 13:56 |
Maybe there is a misunderstanding on the term. Most Americans associate the world "segregation" with the concept "legal segregagation." And when Emperor Barbarossa(hi, there!) made his statement, he was talking about how things are today in contrast with the way things were in the past. And EB is right on that money on this statement.
At the same time, there is informal segregation in American society, a little bit more marked in the East Coast than in the West Coast. Part of it is historically black areas, which were formally segregated, are still black. Sometimes it has to do with economic demographic shifts. Or maybe some people just decide to live among other black people.
And there is still racism in the U.S., as the Southern Poverty proves on a regular basis. They track all kinds of racial attacks, originating from all kinds of ethinicities towards other groups. Southern Poverty Law Center
I believe that this is what Pinguin was trying to point out--of course, he clearify it himself.
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hugoestr
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 14:27 |
Originally posted by pinguin
There is only one way to eliminate racism: intermarriage and assimilation.
Societies should combat racism through the integration of the outsiders into the local communities. One of the worst mistakes a country can do is that, instead of promoting intermarryage and assimilation promotes "diversity". I mean, that racist and segregationist dogma called Multiculturalism, that put every people in its hole.
The so call "celebration" of diversity is precisely what form and mantain isolated groups inside a society.
Let's put these in other terms. In the U.S. there is a society for whites and a society for blacks, a culture for whites and a culture for blacks, an heritage for each one, and a history for each one. That way the U.S. will never be ONE country but two or more parallel societies.
Brazil, on the other side, is a country where intermarryage is widespread. In there you find Blacks, White, Amerindians, and all theirs combinations in all degrees, living together in the poor and middle classes neighbourhood without big deal. In Brazil there are Whites that pray to Yemanja and practise Candomble, and Blacks who sind Fado and go to the Catholic church. And boths have traditional Indian foods for meals. All people share the same culture, and theirs pride is to be Brazilian.
The U.S. is a rich country and Brazil is still poor. But I got the impression people in Brazil accept themselves better, and are even happier.
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Pinguin,
We this is certainly a way of reducing racism, but it is not a pragmatic one. There is always some people who will be different. And they can be very happy with being different.
Among the good that has come from multiculturalism is the idea that one must respect differences. If we people want to join some othe group, they should be in their right to do so. But if people don't want to join, we must respect that as well.
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 15:52 |
Originally posted by hugoestr
Maybe there is a misunderstanding on the term. Most Americans associate the world "segregation" with the concept "legal segregagation." And when Emperor Barbarossa(hi, there!) made his statement, he was talking about how things are today in contrast with the way things were in the past. And EB is right on that money on this statement.
At the same time, there is informal segregation in American society, a little bit more marked in the East Coast than in the West Coast. Part of it is historically black areas, which were formally segregated, are still black. Sometimes it has to do with economic demographic shifts. Or maybe some people just decide to live among other black people.
And there is still racism in the U.S., as the Southern Poverty proves on a regular basis. They track all kinds of racial attacks, originating from all kinds of ethinicities towards other groups. Southern Poverty Law Center
I believe that this is what Pinguin was trying to point out--of course, he clearify it himself. |
Yes, you are correct, I was talking about legal segregation. I do not what you are saying, hugoestr, but sometimes the divide between poor blacks and middle class whites is a class divide more than a racial divide. For example, there are many poor whites that live in poor neighborhoods(Example: Trailer parks), while there are also middle class families that live in middle class neighborhoods.
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 15:58 |
Originally posted by pinguin
[QUOTE=Emperor Barbarossa]
... Also, that country is reluctant to intermarriage which is absurd because the U.S. is one of the countries that has one of the largest percentage of African descendent peoples on the Hemisphere.
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And why should people intermarry?
Edited by Adalwolf - 16-Oct-2006 at 15:59
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Timotheus
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 01:02 |
Why shouldn't they? I see nothing toward it one way or the other.
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Brainstorm
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 05:09 |
How?
Of course racism cannot be eliminated.
I think the better way to reach a good level of tolerance is through education.
But education oriented to multi-cultural societies needs political good will.
And here come the problems..
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 10:39 |
Originally posted by Timotheus
Why shouldn't they? I see nothing toward it one way or the other.
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I don't see any reason to intermarry.
Edited by Adalwolf - 17-Oct-2006 at 10:39
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:05 |
I think that if you want to eliminate racism you should take out an eye for an eye until the whole world goes blind!
Edited by Ponce de Leon - 17-Oct-2006 at 11:29
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JanusRook
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 12:19 |
Finally, in the same way you the movie industry has minority actors quotas, they should be encourage to promote stories that promote mixing.
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Quotas are an anethema to the creation of tolerance, because they foster the belief that one group of people is different from another.
Well, that's not what the world saw after Katrina hit New Orleans. There are lots of studies that show Blacks continue to be segregated in the United States.
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Yes the nation as a whole is segregated, in my own home city I believe we were once listed as one of the top ten most segregated cities in the country. However segregation is only wrong when it is forced. Studies have also shown that people like to live with people that have shared their experiences, have the same likes and look similar, it is part of the group mentality that is hardwired in our brains. It is unnatural to force people to get along with each other, that should come in time with experience.
Also, that country is reluctant to intermarriage which is absurd because the U.S. is one of the countries that has one of the largest percentage of African descendent peoples on the Hemisphere.
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Pinguin, intermarriage is reluctant because of segregation true, but it is more of a cultural thing than a racist thing. Look at situations like say Tiger Woods and his wife, they both come from a similar education and economic background therefore they have more in common so they are more likely to form a healthy loving relationship. The reason intermarriage isn't so common, even though studies show it is increasing, is because different ethnicities in america have too many differences.
Racism against East Asians is practically non-existent.
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Except on the west coast where many neo-nazis and other allied groups go out of their way to single out asians. It still stems from the animosity towards the chinese immigrants of the turn of the century.
I don't see any reason to intermarry.
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What I think Adalwolf is saying is 'why is intermarriage between different races seen as advantageous or better than marriage within ones own race.'
I think that if you want to eliminate racism you should take out an eye for an eye until the whole world goes blind!
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Ah! My eye!
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 13:09 |
Janus, you have it correct. I do not see anything inherently better in intermarriage, not that people should not intermarry.
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