Come on Arber, all the internet is full of maps about Greater Albania including "cameria".
I think that you as a nation are in the phase that the rest of Balkanians(Greeks,Bulgarians, Serbs etc) were 100 years before during the Balkan Wars.
Well, there are plenty of maps showing a strange shape of greece, which reaches until Neaples (Napoli), and as far as Eastern Anatolia, including also Romania. So please, keep it civil. Try to read behind the words, try to understand who posts those maps, and why do they do so. Albania is as great as it is, probably it will unite with Kosova after some decenias (if the will want to do so). Nothing more.
But there are albanians in northern greece, as well as greeks in southern albania. As I have posted different times before, the existence of these minorities should be perceived as a chance to improve the relations, not as a casus belli.
ok lets play your game. these are nationalist moved there by the turkish govenment just for the football match in order for the media to say the things youo are write. You cannot prove i am wrong or the opposite. I can upload 1000 photos edited in photoshop that you can see at easter 12000 people in Istanbul holding greeks flags. The photos are not prooving nothing in this situations. I fyou have any other prooves i could be happy to see them
Turkish Governement??Moved there??Tayyipos? did it?AAHAHAHA you are unbelivable...ı have nothing o say...Theories,theories...But i say:You are Wrong!!!For see Trabzon Reality,you have to live İn Trkiye...
The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel,
But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer...
Perikles look if your in doubt go to Trabzon yourself, tell them they're all stupid Greeks who think they're Turks, tell them to rise against terible Turks and be against Turkey and lets see if you make it out to tell us the tale. You should realise that Trabzon, Rize and that area are staunchly Nationalistic areas and that Laz are not Greek but originally Georgian who converted to Islam and under Pax-Ottomanica and living together with Turks now are part of Turkish society but with their own culture aswell. I've spoken to many Laz who say they're Laz and at the same time feel patriotically Turkish and I mean patriotic.
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
There is definately no connection between Laz and Pontians, even the Turks made the distinction, in that the latter were referred to as Rum, and yes, like the others mentioned, the Laz are of Georgian stock. The Laz have been influenced by certain aspects of Pontian culture, which is why they are being correlated.
Originally posted by EGETURK
İ can not understand how can you believe to Wikipedia's infos...Everybody can wirte there what they want.
Well it was a 'Turk' (by your standards), author of Pontus Kultura~Civilisation of Pontus, who supports these figures.. I'll even give you a non Wikipedia source! haha
Omer Asan belongs to the post-dictatorship generation. He came to Hellas last year for the launching of the Greek edition of his book, and this interview was conducted during his visit.
"Are there Hellenic-speakers in Turkey today who speak the Pontian dialect?"
There are still people in Turkey today who speak and understand Pontian which is the oldest surviving Hellenic dialect. The members of this community come from Trebizond and are scattered throughout Turkey or have emigrated to other countries. Pontian spoken in 60 villages in the Trebizond region, most of them in the Of area. At a conservative estimate. I would say this dialect is spoken by around 300000 people. http://www.hellas.org/asia_minor/omerasan.htm
Originally posted by Anton
I talk about FYROM and slavomacedonians. They are probably most insulted nation (or ethnic group) in the world :( It takes more than place of birth to be entitled to the Macedonian heritage, much much more -- that I found pathetic.
(btw thanks perikles)
They are being insulted??.. If i were you, i wouldn't be insulted by my pathetic comment, but by the very people you feel sorry for, because they have turned their back on you and your ancestors.
I take it, if i moved into your home, and laid stakes to your family tree/ancestry, titles of your property, and made claims to your family heirlooms.. just because we live under the same roof... you'd be all for it ???
Originally posted by Arber Z
Perikles, boy, could you stop this paranoia????Albania has no claims on Greece, the only thing that we claim that should be respected is the albanian comunity of Greece, their human and cultural rights. And thats it.
If things were that bad, then why is it that more and more Albanians are flocking to Greece, compared to the dwindling numbers of Greeks in Albania.
Originally posted by Arber Z
But there are albanians in northern greece, as well as greeks in southern albania. As I have posted different times before, the existence of these minorities
One's an immigrant minority and the other's an indigenous minority. There's a difference. Albanians always have a home to go back to, if they don't like it right?, but the Greeks will have to forfeit their 'home' and therefore end up with the "short end of the stick".
If things were that bad, then why is it that more and more Albanians are flocking to Greece, compared to the dwindling numbers of Greeks in Albania.
Because they are in need, and they want to work, while greece needs workers
One's an immigrant minority and the other's an indigenous minority. There's a difference. Albanians always have a home to go back to, if they don't like it right?, but the Greeks will have to forfeit their 'home' and therefore end up with the "short end of the stick".
Now I dont want to start a useless discussion on this topic, the Greeks of Albania are very honured citizens of this country and never had to forfait their home.
In Greece there exists also an albanian speaking community, and this is widely accepted, as they still exist under cultural oppression. I am not speaking for the emmigrants. If you dont believe this, than read what Venizelos said in the Versaille conference, regarding the border with Albania that had to be shaped by an international commission. Venizelos accepted the albanian as a language widely spoken in Greece. You can find it at the Actae Diplomatica of that event.
When I go to Ioannina, Arta, Preveza, Konitsa etc I still find people who speak albanian, although most of the community was forced to take "the short end of the stick". So please, nobody had any claims, but do not be egocentric
There's a difference between Albanians and Arvanites Arber. Arvanites don't feel Albanian, and they don't feel Albania to be their representative in Greece. It is true that arvanitic, just as vlachic, is not taught in school, but arvanites are certainly not oppressed.
The albanians of Epirus are a different matter. I don't know much of their existence, I know however that they were forced out of the country, due to what they did to the Greek population during the Italian and German fascist occupation of the country.
Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
There's a difference between Albanians and Arvanites Arber. Arvanites don't feel Albanian, and they don't feel Albania to be their representative in Greece. It is true that arvanitic, just as vlachic, is not taught in school, but arvanites are certainly not oppressed.
The albanians of Epirus are a different matter. I don't know much of their existence, I know however that they were forced out of the country, due to what they did to the Greek population during the Italian and German fascist occupation of the country.
Xristar, I wasnt speaking of the arvanites. the albanians of Epirus, as you named them, were greek citizens. I have never heard of the ostracization of a whole community. If they supported a certain regime, then you find those, and you put them in jail. But let me say what I think, I dont believe the whole community cooperated with the Italians & Germans. As it always happens, the responsible are the leaders. Anyway, I just dont want to discuss this here, who is interested, let him open a new thread and ask me.
I'm not saying if it was just or not, I'm saying that a big (if not whole apparently) part of the albanian community was 'ostracized' (that's not exactly the best term, but I'll use it).
Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
1.Azeri (23.5 m) 2.Persian (22 m) 3.Kurdish (6.7 m) 4.Gilaki (3.2 m) 5.Mazani (3.2 m) 6.Luri (2.3 m) 7.Turkmen (2 m) 8.Qashqai (1.5 m) 9.Arabic (1.4 m) 10.Domari (1.3 m) 11.Laki (1 m) 12.Bakhtiari (1 m) 13.Baluchi (0.9 m) 14.Khorasani Turkish (0.5 m) 15.Dari (0.3 m) 16.Armenian (0.2 m) 17.Hazaragi (0.2 m) 18.Takestani (0.2 m) 19.Aimaq (0.2 m) 20.Pashto (0.1 m)
How could you say Turkmen, Azeri and not Trkish instead? Very weird pre-judgements and hateful thoughts. Trkmen and Azeri are Trkish people, and they talk Trkish. ca. 50 % of Irans population are Trkish, but still you are talking like this...
Population:
66,622,704 (July 2002 est.)
Age structure:
0-14 years: 31.6% (male 10,753,218; female 10,273,015)
15-64 years: 63.7% (male 21,383,542; female 21,096,307)
65 years and over: 4.7% (male 1,633,016; female 1,483,606) (2002 est.)
Population growth rate:
0.77% (2002 est.)
Birth rate:
17.54 births/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Death rate:
5.39 deaths/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Net migration rate:
-4.46 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.01 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 1.1 male(s)/female
total population: 1.03 male(s)/female (2002 est.)
Infant mortality rate:
28.07 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 70.25 years
female: 71.69 years (2002 est.)
male: 68.87 years
Total fertility rate:
2.01 children born/woman (2002 est.)
HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate:
less than 0.01% (1999 est.)
HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS:
NA
HIV/AIDS - deaths:
NA
Nationality:
noun: Iranian(s)
adjective: Iranian
Ethnic groups:
Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%
Religions:
Shi'a Muslim 89%, Sunni Muslim 10%, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha'i 1%
Languages:
Persian and Persian dialects 58%, Turkic and Turkic dialects 26%, Kurdish 9%, Luri 2%, Balochi 1%, Arabic 1%, Turkish 1%, other 2%
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 72.1%
male: 78.4%
female: 65.8% (1994 est.)
In Greece there exists also an albanian speaking community, and this is widely accepted, as they still exist under cultural oppression. I am not speaking for the emmigrants. If you dont believe this, than read what Venizelos said in the Versaille conference, regarding the border with Albania that had to be shaped by an international commission. Venizelos accepted the albanian as a language widely spoken in Greece. You can find it at the Actae Diplomatica of that event.
When I go to Ioannina, Arta, Preveza, Konitsa etc I still find people who speak albanian, although most of the community was forced to take "the short end of the stick". So please, nobody had any claims, but do not be egocentric
Arber as I see again try to find Albanians in Greece , specially in an region that suffered a lot from the faschists Chams durinf the Nazis occupation. And I call them faschists because coloborated with the Nazis.Below is an official document from the C.M. Woodhouse that described simply the Cham issue.
The Chams were not popular either and in Albania as the British Liaison and known historian said.
I would like Arber to open a thread regarding the issue to exchange atgyments as about the supposing Albanian minoity in Greece and the Chams issue and not to guide any thread in an issue that recucling from the (your) Albanian side.
Now as about the thread the only billeteral Greeks that speak Albanian dialect are the Arvanites.
Population:
66,622,704 (July 2002 est.)
Age structure:
0-14 years: 31.6% (male 10,753,218; female 10,273,015)
15-64 years: 63.7% (male 21,383,542; female 21,096,307)
65 years and over: 4.7% (male 1,633,016; female 1,483,606) (2002 est.)
Population growth rate:
0.77% (2002 est.)
Birth rate:
17.54 births/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Death rate:
5.39 deaths/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Net migration rate:
-4.46 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.01 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 1.1 male(s)/female
total population: 1.03 male(s)/female (2002 est.)
Infant mortality rate:
28.07 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 70.25 years
female: 71.69 years (2002 est.)
male: 68.87 years
Total fertility rate:
2.01 children born/woman (2002 est.)
HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate:
less than 0.01% (1999 est.)
HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS:
NA
HIV/AIDS - deaths:
NA
Nationality:
noun: Iranian(s)
adjective: Iranian
Ethnic groups:
Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%
Religions:
Shi'a Muslim 89%, Sunni Muslim 10%, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha'i 1%
Languages:
Persian and Persian dialects 58%, Turkic and Turkic dialects 26%, Kurdish 9%, Luri 2%, Balochi 1%, Arabic 1%, Turkish 1%, other 2%
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 72.1%
male: 78.4%
female: 65.8% (1994 est.)
your sources are wrong mate.
Look at all these ethnic groups in Iran, theyre all Trks. Azeri Trkleri, Karapapaklar , Kaşkaylar ,
Trkmenler , Hamseler , Karapapalılar, Geymikler , Şahsevenler , Karadağlılar ,
Şatrunlu- Iar , Delikanlılar ,Beybağlılar , Bocağcılatlar , Halalar , Karaylar
, Timurtaşlar ve Avşarlar
These ethnic groups form a group of 35.000.000, which is almost 50% of the population. Youre source is wrong, mate.
Arber as I see again try to find Albanians in Greece , specially in an region that suffered a lot from the faschists Chams durinf the Nazis occupation. And I call them faschists because coloborated with the Nazis.Below is an official document from the C.M. Woodhouse that described simply the Cham issue.
The Chams were not popular either and in Albania as the British Liaison and known historian said.
I would like Arber to open a thread regarding the issue to exchange atgyments as about the supposing Albanian minoity in Greece and the Chams issue and not to guide any thread in an issue that recucling from the (your) Albanian side.
Now as about the thread the only billeteral Greeks that speak Albanian dialect are the Arvanites.
I reported this post to the moderators
Akritas is insulting and offending an entire community, that of the chams, greek citizens of albanian nationality. He calls them fascists, because they collaborated with the italians, and with this he justifies the expatriation, the discrimination, and the massacres agains this community, whose descendants are still seeking their right of property. Apparently in his view the Italians should be all exterminated, because they are "The Italians". Please, try to deal with issue, the statement of akritas, as well as many previous statements from this member, shows a strong feeling of hate against the albanians, especially those living in greece.
The Chams were not fascists, and if there was a collaboration, it was just the collaboration of the leaders, not of the entire population. And second, their descendants, they dont have any fault anyway, and should be free to go back to their home, and their property should be guaranteed.
Please, moderators, deal with this issue, I repeat it, Akritas is being insultive and offensive against many people, among them, the Albanian chams
Akritas is insulting and offending an entire community, that of the chams, greek citizens of albanian nationality. He calls them fascists, because they collaborated with the italians, and with this he justifies the expatriation, the discrimination, and the massacres agains this community, whose descendants are still seeking their right of property.
They were expelled because they cooperated with the Fascists, formed battalions to fight the Greek resistance and committed atrocities against the local population. The decision to deport them was supported by the Allies and was in line with similar decisions taken by other countries (deportations of German population from eastern Europe).
If you ask me if I agree to their deportation, I say that collective punishment is unjust, inhumane and horrible and insults me as a human being.
Still, this is not about my personal opinion but about the politics of the time. Chams were collectively labeled as Fascists because of their actions and paid for this act when Axis was defeated - Vae Victis!
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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