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milns
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Topic: Baltic Crusades Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 13:03 |
Originally posted by BlindOne
4) Why crusades were launched against the Baltic statements (they wasn't muslims)
This is a good question for onother thread.
So here it goes! I give you 3 options to choose and to discuss them, if you have any other cause in mind feel free to write them.
1)Purely religious causes (Killing pagans is a good deed in the eyes of God!).
2)Drang nach Osten .
3)Other.
Edited by milns - 23-Aug-2006 at 05:03
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Un beidzot liecas un sašķīst viss kristīgo bars -
Nav pārspējams šodien tiem zemgaļu niknums un kaujas spars!
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rider
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Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 13:30 |
How the **** should anyone understand your second question?
Yes, they were not of Islamic religion but were heathens and so worthy of killing. They were closer to home and so it was cheaper to go to the Balticum than to the Holy Land.
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 19:38 |
How the **** should anyone understand your second question? |
I guess "Drang nach Osten" is somehow a dedicated relatively known term.
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Herschel
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Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 20:35 |
I know Ost means East in German, so I suppose it means the German push Eastward...?
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 21:35 |
It means, Drive to the East, IIRC.
As usual with Occidental Christian expansion, it was a case of rising
military and economic power fuelling expansion of the Catholic powers,
to which the Papacy naturally felt willing to support. The Papacy had a
key interest in establishing the Catholic hierarchy and Latin rite in
the new territories in the East. The Papacy gave their support to many
Catholic military expeditions which were sent against non Catholics,
not just against the Muslims.
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Herschel
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Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 22:47 |
That makes sense now. Yeah, Western Europe and the Papacy made a huge turn-around in the 11th century after centuries of punishment, and from that point forward they became increaingly powerful.
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milns
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 05:12 |
Sorry for second question, but I thought that this term must be familiar to people with interest in medieval history. It means drive to the east.
Drang nach Osten was popular for German states due to lack of free land in 10 century. As a result of this
the pagan slav kingdoms by the shores of Baltic see was destroyed. Later it continued in Prussian and in Livonia, although Prussian crusade was starded by polish king he soon asked help from German crusaders offering them land in Prussia in exchange for military alliance.
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Un beidzot liecas un sašķīst viss kristīgo bars -
Nav pārspējams šodien tiem zemgaļu niknums un kaujas spars!
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Barbarroja
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 06:17 |
Many crusades were to expand Christianism or to figth against heresies, not only against muslims. For example in Langedoc against Albigensis and Cathars, they were christians also. And crusades were a good method to get new lands and expand the territories of the crusaders, like in Spain. Many French, Italian or Burgundy or members of Temple or Hospitallers went to Spain or other places with crusades to get new feuds. If in the Baltic there were pagans is not strange.
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I'm sorry but my English is not very good. I'm from Vila-real (Valencia, Spain)
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Komnenos
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 06:24 |
"Drang nach Osten" is a recurring theme in German history and politics, based on the fact that expansion into the West was hardly possible, and on the more sinister notion, that as the East was populated by a less civilised people, it was the Germans' duty to bring progress.
In the first German expansion into the East, starting seriously in the 10th century, territorial conquest was being justified by the alledged necessity to Christianise the pagan Slavs east of the river Elbe, a idea that was resurrected later in the Baltic crusades of the 12th and 13th centuries.
Nazi-Germany's attempt to create "Lebensraum" for the German people , that were supposedly locked in the inadequate confines of the Reich, in the East, picked up the "Drang nach Osten" idea, this time, territorial conquest of the East was justified with the alledged racial inferiority of the Slavic people.
Edited by Komnenos - 23-Aug-2006 at 06:25
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Kalevipoeg
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 14:43 |
I don't think the church ever cared about religion, or if it did it was a religion=power type of matter. Muslim, pagan, Hindu, no difference to the pope, there are no privilieges, it was a war as any other - more land, serfs, culutral integration of the conquered lands etc.
The Baltics was a logical target, as when you look at the maps of the time, 12th century perhaps. The line between the catholic (Western and Central Europe) and orthodox christian (Russian) lands was very thin, leaving only the Baltics with some surrounding strips pagan. And when you look back on the 11th century and forward you can only see a continuous line of wars against Slavic pagans east of Germany, and also Finns in the 12th century soon-to-be Swedish domain - spot by spot of land fell under christian rulers and i don't doubt they mentioned divine providence guiding their hand and swords through wotrhless pagan lives. The Baltics were just the last target, lucky enough we got by that long and keep our roots for the time being.
Pagan lands weren't officially anyones in the eyes of a christian ruler. Nobody in the Western-European catholic gang would condemn your actions if they were to attack pagans, likely only lend a hand while grabbing something for yourself. That was the trend of the time and politics i believe.
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rider
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 15:28 |
Yep, religion=power.
Sorry, I am an idiot. I knew about the Drang nach Osten, but as in Estonian it is along 'tung itta' then I didn't get a connection. I was more thinking that it was related to some dragon.
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milns
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 17:37 |
Learn some German in school man it will be usefull in futre life
must agree with Kalevipoeg, logical target the Baltics were, damn chritians
Edited by milns - 23-Aug-2006 at 17:43
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Un beidzot liecas un sašķīst viss kristīgo bars -
Nav pārspējams šodien tiem zemgaļu niknums un kaujas spars!
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 17:54 |
The Baltic region is one in which my knowledge is comparably weak so I
am wondering something. In the medieval world it was quite common
practice for the Byzantine Patriarchy and the Roman Papacy to vie with
one another for power by competing to influence pagan lands to adopt
their specific creed of Christianity. The Rus were converted back in
989 by the Byzantines whilst the Germans were pushing into central
Europe about the same time. Supposing that the Rus were Orthodox and
the Germans were Catholics, could it be that the bloc of pagan
territory between the two became another place of competition between
the two rival heads of the Christian world? Could this competition have
been serious enough to motivate the Papacy into giving the Catholic
forces extra impetus by lending the supporting crusader movement to
their cause?
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Majkes
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Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 04:14 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
The Baltic region is one in which my knowledge is comparably weak so I am wondering something. In the medieval world it was quite common practice for the Byzantine Patriarchy and the Roman Papacy to vie with one another for power by competing to influence pagan lands to adopt their specific creed of Christianity. The Rus were converted back in 989 by the Byzantines whilst the Germans were pushing into central Europe about the same time. Supposing that the Rus were Orthodox and the Germans were Catholics, could it be that the bloc of pagan territory between the two became another place of competition between the two rival heads of the Christian world? Could this competition have been serious enough to motivate the Papacy into giving the Catholic forces extra impetus by lending the supporting crusader movement to their cause? |
Rus was very weak. Big part of Rus was conquered by pagan Lithuanians. There was no competition there. Byzantine didn't reach there. There were only two possibilities for pagans: to become Catholics or to die. Lithuania's neighbourgs were Poland, Teuton Knight and Order of Sword Cavaliers. Lithuania accepted christianity through Poland in 1386 as last pagan nation in Europe. Teuton Knights were claiming that convertion is a fake and were still holding crusades against Lithuanians. This lead to war in which Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth defeated Teuton Knights Grunwald 1410. Western Catholics was accusing Poland for supporting pagans against Christians so during the Battle of Grunwald there were Crusaders from all over Europe on Teuton Knights's side.
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milns
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Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 05:04 |
Russians wasn't spreading christianaty like Latin church did it in all over the world, their main interest was to gather tax from conquered tribes and local religion wasnt so important
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Un beidzot liecas un sašķīst viss kristīgo bars -
Nav pārspējams šodien tiem zemgaļu niknums un kaujas spars!
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Majkes
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Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 07:11 |
Originally posted by milns
Russians wasn't spreading christianaty like Latin church did it in all over the world, their main interest was to gather tax from conquered tribes and local religion wasnt so important |
Russians at the time weren't conquering any tribes. They were being conquered by Mongolians and Lithuanians. Besides there were no Russians yet but Russins devided on diffrent duchies. And before the partition there was Kievan Rus but I don't think they were conquering any Pagans although I can be wrong.
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Raider
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Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 07:30 |
Originally posted by milns
Originally posted by BlindOne
4) Why crusades were launched against the Baltic statements (they wasn't muslims)
This is a good question for onother thread.
So here it goes! I give you 3 options to choose and to discuss them, if you have any other cause in mind feel free to write them.
1)Purely religious causes (Killing pagans is a good deed in the eyes of God!).
2)Drang nach Osten .
3)Other. |
Well, At first the Teutonic Order tried an other direction, they were invited to Transylvania by Andrew II. (The first Marienburg was there.) A decade later, when they tried to estabilish an independent state they were expelled.
Only after their failure in Transylvania and the Balkans they found a new home.
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John Lenon
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Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 07:43 |
To Majkes.
I think yo have some mistakes.
1. "Big part of Rus was conquered by pagan Lithuanians"
Yes , but it was only in XIV century, but Baltic Crusades genereally were in XII-XIII.
2. In the Grand Duchy of Lithuania only some tribes left pagan till XV century : Samogitina (lithuanian: emaitiu), they were last pagans in Europe. All others tribes/territories were christen before: One part was Catholic, but the lagest part was Orthodox (let remember that the greatest part of lands Grand Duchy of Lithuania got after demolition of Kievan Rus' by mongols. Kievan Rus' inhabatinas had been christened in X-XI).
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milns
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Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 08:46 |
Originally posted by Majkes
Russians at the time weren't conquering any tribes. They were being conquered by Mongolians and Lithuanians. Besides there were no Russians yet but Russins devided on diffrent duchies. And before the partition there was Kievan Rus but I don't think they were conquering any Pagans although I can be wrong. |
I was talking about X-XI century Rus. Catholic (or Latin) countrys could not understand why orhodox was not eager to spread their religion like Latins did.
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Un beidzot liecas un sašķīst viss kristīgo bars -
Nav pārspējams šodien tiem zemgaļu niknums un kaujas spars!
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Majkes
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Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 10:30 |
Originally posted by John Lenon
To Majkes.
I think yo have some mistakes.
1. "Big part of Rus was conquered by pagan Lithuanians"
Yes , but it was only in XIV century, but Baltic Crusades genereally were in XII-XIII.
2. In the Grand Duchy of Lithuania only some tribes left pagan till XV century : Samogitina (lithuanian: emaitiu), they were last pagans in Europe. All others tribes/territories were christen before: One part was Catholic, but the lagest part was Orthodox (let remember that the greatest part of lands Grand Duchy of Lithuania got after demolition of Kievan Rus' by mongols. Kievan Rus' inhabatinas had been christened in X-XI). |
1. No, there were also crusades after Lithuanians in XIVth century and even more dangerous than before e.g. Vilinus was surounded by Teuton Knights. Even in the War 1409-1410 between Teuton Knights and Poland, Lithuania foreign knights were called for a crusade.
2. That's something new. From what I know Vitold and Jogaillo were Pagans before Union in Krewo with Poland. So they acepted christianity in 1386.
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