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bg_turk
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Topic: What is Islamic Fascism? Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 02:58 |
Mr Bush has used the term Islamic fascism on at least two occasion one of which is documented in this CNN report.
http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/clickability/index.html?url=/video/politics/2006/08/10/malveaux.bush.terror.politics.cnn
What does this term mean and why does Bush feel the need to use it? With FOX constantly ranting about a third "world war", Bush talking about Islamic fascism and crusades in the middle east, I fear that the danger for the clash of civilizations is becoming real. Muslims are becoming increasing stigmatized in Western societies. Recent polls suggest that 2 in 5 Americans have prejudiceses against Muslims. All of this makes me wonder if Muslim people are really safe in the West? Could there be a mass persecution (or God forbid a holocaust) against Muslims in the future?
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Tobodai
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 03:16 |
A holocaust is unlikley as I think it would have happened by now. Aside from politicians public sentiment against Muslims in the US now is probably somewhat less hostile than it was in previous years. 2 in 5 now used to be 3 in 5 I bet.
And no, there is no such thinig as Islamic facism, although I feel that religion and facism share many similarities and seek to brainwash everyone in similar ways, there is nothing technically fascist about Islam or at least not more so than any other religion.
This term is another in a long line of made up words used by the administration and pundits. it seems like the propoganda in 1984, where random nonsensical phrases become political lexicon.
Edited by Tobodai - 12-Aug-2006 at 03:17
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Komnenos
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 04:42 |
The term "Islamic Fascism" is nonsense, and just another meaningless Bush sound-bite. I suppose it implies that there fascist states whose ideology is supplied by Islam.
Fascism is not an ideology ( in the widest sense of the word) that can carry a religious attribut, to call all the fascist states of Europe in the 30s and 40s "Christian fascism" is equally non-sensical.
Fascism is not motivated by religion, it is nationalist, imperialist, authoritarian, totalitarian, anti-communist, implies an identidy of interests of state and capital, etc., and as such only applicable as an historical term for political phenomena in the first half of European history.
Religions can play an imortant supportive role for fascist states, as they have done for example in the Spanish fascism under Franco.
I presume, Bush referrred to the Iran, as the alleged cradle and stronghold of "Islamic Fascism" , in his latest intellectual master-piece, but neither is the Iran a fascist state, nor is there an Islamis fascist movement on the loose anywhere else.
Attempts to create a totalitarian theocracy, maybe, but fascist it ain't.
Bush's quote is simply propaganda, supplied by some PR men whose copy-writing skills are far greater than their understanding of history and politics.
Not be taken too seriously, and as much verbal diarrhea as any comparisons of Israel with the Nazis.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 05:58 |
Bush's use of the term is simply factually wrong.
However, just as you had Christian fascism under Franco in Spain, there's no theoretical reason I can see why you couldn't have Islamic fascism.
The Mubarrak, Assad, Hussein, Musharraf, Ghadaffi regimes are (or were) all similar to European fascist regimes in Muslim countries. I would not object to anyone calling them Islamic fascist countries.
It's worth noting though that they are as likely to be US allies as US enemies.
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Ahmed The Fighter
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 11:29 |
GCLE but all leaders you mentioned them above are not Islamic leaders or have an Islamic charisma.
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 15:20 |
"Islamic facism" is Middle Eastern facism. The term implies that all countries that are Muslim are fascist. This is not true. I remember some ignorant, misinformed conservative woman on MSNBC ranting about how the Muslims have always hated "us"(Christians, I assume, though I'm not one of "us" and this is a secular country) and that the Crusades were against Muslim agression. What history book was she reading, "Godless: The History of the Righteous Crusades against the Godless Muslims, by Ann Coulter" .
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Cywr
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 17:05 |
Short answer - an abuse of the word facism for sensationalist purposes.
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Guests
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 17:32 |
mr bush'S father real fashist. first, bush must account for father.real fashist militarist is father and himself.impolit and immoral man.he must use general terorist word.he use like islam cristian black white words.real raceist himself.everybody see his do toward muslims.terorism's not become race and religion
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Maharbbal
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 19:29 |
Hum, I do have a big problem, for the first time for years I find myself more on the side of Mr. Bush than on the side of sensible persons of whom I rate highly the opinion. If anybody knows a anti-neo-con vaccin, you have a buyer.
Waiting for the miracle that is going to pull me back to the leftwing, I have to make my point.
I'm not sure Mr. Bush meant it this way, but Islamic Fascism, though sensationalist do make sense. First, lets tacle down the problem of the use of the word "fascism". If it is to be entended as the strict historic definition Mr. Mussolini and Mr. Hitler gave him, of course it cannot be use for a modern days phenomenon. Yet if it is to be defined as pretty much the same as totalitarism, well it is worth consideration. First remember that Mr. Bush is far from behing the first using this comparaison as plenty of people used to refer to Mr. Khomeny's Iran as a "green totalitarism". Considering Mr. Ben Laden political vision I think the definition Mr. Komnenos' defition of fascism does fit ("nationalist, imperialist, authoritarian, totalitarian, anti-communist"). Of course with the exception of nationalist, yet when you consider his behaviour toward Saudi Arabia you may not be so sure. Finally I'd like to refer once more to the definition a young Italian black shirt gave of fascism (quoted by Mr. Hobsboawn in "the age of extrems") it goes more or less like that "idealists think their regime is worth dying for, on the countrary, fascism wants to be worth killing for". In my opinion this is the best definition of radical islamism.
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ok ge
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 19:33 |
An Islamist fascist must be similar to a communist capitalist
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Tobodai
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 22:37 |
nationalist-Imperialist-authoritarian-totalitarian-anti-communist is a descriptive label that describes all world religions perfectly, so Kommenos, I dont get your point even though we agree that there is no such thing as Islamic fascism.
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Odin
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Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 00:13 |
"Fascist" has become the most widely abused word in the English language. Fascism is Nationalistic Totalitarianism with a Capitalist economy regulated for the benifit of the capitalists that support the government leadership. The Neo-Cons are far closer to being Fascist in practice then Fundimentalist millitants are. Calling Islamic fundies "Fascist" is about the capitalist war profiteers of the Millitary-Industrial Complex preventing rational debate on the causes of Islamic terrorism (namely our knee-jerk supporting of Israel and our support of the Saudi Monarchy).
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 01:28 |
Originally posted by cok gec
An Islamist fascist must be similar to a communist capitalist |
What? China?
nationalist-Imperialist-authoritarian-totalitarian-anti-communist is a
descriptive label that describes all world religions perfectly, so
Kommenos, I dont get your point even though we agree that there is no
such thing as Islamic fascism. |
Islam's not nationalistic. More anti-nationalistic.
Islams not Imperialist - although many muslims are.
The only authority is God. Most others are ignored, or argued with.
Totalitarian only on a divine level, not a mortal one.
Anti-Communist - Not really, scratch the communist anti-religious stance and Islams not anti-communist.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 02:31 |
Like I said , I dont believe in Islamic fascism, I do think religious people are more prone to being fascist though.
Muslims arent usually nationalistic because their states are largely fake Versailles peace tready lines, but very religious Christians are very nationalistic.
ALl religions seek to spread and dominate other, thus they are all imperialistic.
God is the only authority, the alpha and the omega, like a fascist dictator
Totalitiarianism is totalitarianism, if one belives in it divine or no thats where ones sympathies lie.
anti-communist: it has to be, communism is a competing religion
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 03:51 |
anti-communist: it has to be, communism is a competing religion |
If we ignore the part about communism suppressing religion. (Which does make all religions anti-communist of course). I don't think there is anything un-islamic, or even un-christian about communism
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Guests
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Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 06:39 |
I remember back in the 1950's it was pointed out that Jesus's teachings could be termed communist propaganda. This was during the whole McCarthy business.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 06:48 |
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter
GCLE but all leaders you mentioned them above are not Islamic leaders or have an Islamic charisma. |
The constitutions of Iraq under Hussein and Libya under Ghadaffi both state that the countries are Islamic, and Islam was/is the established religion in both. I'm sure ghadaffi in particular would resent you calling him non-Islamic.
More to the point though, I rather carefully wrote 'Islamic fascist countries' not 'Islamic fascist leaders'.
I would accept that political leaders frequently fail to practise what they preach.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 06:52 |
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
"Islamic facism" is Middle Eastern facism. The term implies that all countries that are Muslim are fascist.
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No it doesn't. It implies that a Muslim might also be a fascist: that the two sets of beliefs are not incompatible. As a term, it doesn't even imply that Islamic fascism exists, merely that it might.
Of course as Bush used it he was applying it to the US's opponents in the middle east, and there, as I said, he was simply factually wrong.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 06:59 |
Originally posted by Maharbbal
If it is to be entended as the strict historic definition Mr. Mussolini and Mr. Hitler gave him, of course it cannot be use for a modern days phenomenon. |
I agree with your post on the whole, but if you want to be strictly historical it was Mussolini alone that defined it. His article in the Italian Encyclopedia of 1932 is usually taken as the standard. It's at
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malizai_
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Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 07:14 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Mr Bush has used the term Islamic fascism on at least two occasion one of which is documented in this CNN report.
http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/clickability/index.html?url=/video/politics/2006/08/10/malveaux.bush.terror.politics.cnn
What does this term mean and why does Bush feel the need to use it? With FOX constantly ranting about a third "world war", Bush talking about Islamic fascism and crusades in the middle east, I fear that the danger for the clash of civilizations is becoming real. Muslims are becoming increasing stigmatized in Western societies. Recent polls suggest that 2 in 5 Americans have prejudiceses against Muslims.
All of this makes me wonder if Muslim people are really safe in the West? Could there be a mass persecution (or God forbid a holocaust) against Muslims in the future?
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George can be exempt from criticism when you consider that he doesnt think or write out his speeches. As for the neocons speechwriters they are above repproach. So i guess we will just have to put up with it like with everything else.
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