Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Loknar
Colonel
Joined: 09-Jun-2005
Location: Somalia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 666
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 13:24 |
Afgahan useing your logic i can basically label all palestinians s terrorists too.
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 13:33 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Jews have right to claim a large part of the middle east because unlike Arabs, Turks and some other nations who have killed natives and captured their lands, Jews have peacefully lived in the middle east for thousands years, for example we know they have more than 2700 years of recorded history in Isfahan and there are still at least 23 active Synagogues in this city. |
Have you heard of the term "Arabatized"? Those are Arabs by choice and adoption and mixture. Physical differences can tell you that they were not massacred and subtituted by invading Arabs. Similarly the Turks today is a mixture. Not a replacement.
I'm quiet surprise that you missed such a common knowledge. Especially that you live in the Middle East itself. You sounded to me like someone loging in to AE from Fiji. Where are you now by the way?
If your purpose was to post some pictures of old synagauges of Isfahan (I cannot see the connection of your photos really to this topic), I enjoyed the photos.
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
Afghanan
Chieftain
Durr e Durran
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1098
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 13:34 |
Originally posted by ok ge
Afghan, can you post the source. Especially it is a copied text. Such an interesting article should be sited. Thank you. |
You got it:
Article Sourced:
Spotlight
Pioneers of terrorism
Facts about the founding fathers of Israel
By Sam Kabbani
Link to article:
|
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 13:39 |
Originally posted by Loknar
Afgahan useing your logic i can basically label all palestinians s terrorists too. |
I thought they are labeled already
And the article talked about Zionist groups, not jews.
Thank you for the source Afghan.
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
Loknar
Colonel
Joined: 09-Jun-2005
Location: Somalia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 666
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 13:45 |
mr kabbanii a professional who cites his work!
|
|
DukeC
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 14:35 |
Originally posted by Mila
The more land Israel attempts to conquer, cleanse of its inhabitants, and colonize - the worse its situation will be. The situation since 1967 has been immeasurably worse than the situation between 1948-1967. If Israel attempts to claim more territory in Arabia, it will simply create an even larger refugee population, in ever larger and more desperate refugee camps, with an even larger desire to destroy the country and reclaim everything that was taken from them. |
This just isn't historically accurate Mila. Israel was originally created to provide a safe homeland for Jews worldwide, not create an empire. The growth of Israel is directly related to the attempts by it's Arab neighbor to destroy it. You can't use the Balkan experience to describe the middle-east. In most of the early wars Israel was the underdog, less well armed and smaller forces than it's opponents. It was the determination of the Israelis to resist that was the driving force that created the country not the desire to dominate that you seem to believe. After the near defeat in 1973 the Israeli outlook changed, no longer was defence seen to be enough. The IDF took a much more agressive stance towards threats and in the early 1980s invaded Lebanon to evict the PLO guerillas operating there. It wasn't to colonize it was to sanitize.
|
|
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 15:11 |
I disagree, DukeC. Zionists are not nor have ever been satisfied with
the land they have. I'm certain ordinary Jews arriving in Palestine, as
even they referred to it in those days, were more than content just to
have a safe place to lay their heads - but Zionist leaders obviously
were not.
Even now, illegal settlements that break the laws of the Geneva
conventions are being expanded in Israel. The roads connecting them,
roads on which only Jews are allowed to drive, are still being used as
weapons of mass destruction. Pick up a driver's map of the West Bank
and note how all of the Jews-only highways wind like a tangled thread
between each settlements. This isn't the shortest route, nor is it
accidental. The roads are used to destroy virtually everything they
possibly can. This not only includes orchards, small villages, and so
on - the roads are also used to break larger Palestinian towns in
several pieces, regardless of how many homes need to be destroyed to
push a road straight through the city.
According to my friend Matityahu, most Israelies are actually fairly
ignorent of the situation in the occupied territories. They have a
vague idea of what life is like, but few really understand just how bad
it is. And the vast majority of Palestinians never see any Israelies
other than soldiers and settlers, both of whom - especially the latter
- certainly don't offer a good impression. "No dogs, no Christians, no
Arabs" is the sign many settlements have on their gates. The people who
move to these settlements are mainly religious fanatics or the poorest
of the poor of Israeli immigrants.
All of this has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. They are no more
Jewish than Osama bin Laden is Muslim. They should be stopped. They
should be obliterated, actually. To me they are no better than
neo-Nazis.
As for Lebanon, their first war and occupation killed thousands and
brought about the founding of Hezbollah as a resistence movement.
Hezbollah adopted terrorist actions, Israel was forced to leave most of
the occupied regions of southern Lebanon (NOT all) - and landmined what
it gave up as it left. Now Israel is back again, and God only knows
what the response will be. One thing is for certain, though - Lebanese
Christians now support Hezbollah. Israel, as it always does, has done
nothing but make the situation worse for those who want peace.
If you look closely, everything the Israeli government does has the
effect of empowering militant Islamists. Everything militant Islamists
do has the effect of empowering the Israeli government. Evil feeds off
evil.
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
|
mamikon
Sultan
Joined: 16-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2200
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 15:16 |
Originally posted by cok gec
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Jews
have right to claim a large part of the middle east because unlike
Arabs, Turks and some other nations who have killed natives and
captured their lands, Jews have peacefully lived in the middle east for
thousands years, for example we know they have more than 2700 years of
recorded history in Isfahan and there are still at least 23 active
Synagogues in this city. |
Have you heard of the term "Arabatized"? Those are Arabs by choice
and adoption and mixture. Physical differences can tell you that they
were not massacred and subtituted by invading Arabs. Similarly the
Turks today is a mixture. Not a replacement.
I'm quiet surprise that you missed such a common knowledge.
Especially that you live in the Middle East itself. You sounded to me
like someone loging in to AE from Fiji. Where are you now by the way
|
You are either really naive or have a severe lack of knowledge in Middle Eastern history...
Edited by mamikon - 10-Aug-2006 at 15:16
|
|
DukeC
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 15:35 |
Zionists are just a small part Israel, there is also a very strong peace movement. It's unfair to leave out all their efforts and the violent death of their leader in 1993. Israel is not a monolith, it is one of the most fractous nations in the world politically. The right-wing has been able to advance it's adgenda by scaring Israelis with the spectre of Palestinian violence and threats by countries like Iran. For their part other groups and nations have used Israel as a rally point for building support. A peaceful solution for everybody will never be possible if all these factors aren't taken into account.
|
|
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 15:37 |
^ We agree. You're not willing to condemn Israel fully because of these
groups, I'm not willing to let them off the hook fully because of them.
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
|
DukeC
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 16:32 |
Originally posted by Mila
^ We agree. You're not willing to condemn Israel fully because of these groups, I'm not willing to let them off the hook fully because of them. |
I support Israel because the role it plays in protecting and giving sanctuary for Jews worldwide. I hope for peace in the region because I believe that everybody there has the right to live in dignity.
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 17:56 |
Originally posted by mamikon
You are either really naive or have a severe lack of knowledge in Middle Eastern history...
|
How about too sophosticated for you to grasp?
Try to lay down your idea of what is supposedly the correct definition along with criticism. It is easy to wallow in ignorance.
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
arch.buff
Colonel
Joined: 18-Oct-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 606
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 01:22 |
Originally posted by DukeC
Originally posted by Mila
The more land Israel attempts to conquer, cleanse of its inhabitants, and colonize - the worse its situation will be. The situation since 1967 has been immeasurably worse than the situation between 1948-1967. If Israel attempts to claim more territory in Arabia, it will simply create an even larger refugee population, in ever larger and more desperate refugee camps, with an even larger desire to destroy the country and reclaim everything that was taken from them. |
This just isn't historically accurate Mila. Israel was originally created to provide a safe homeland for Jews worldwide, not create an empire. The growth of Israel is directly related to the attempts by it's Arab neighbor to destroy it. You can't use the Balkan experience to describe the middle-east. In most of the early wars Israel was the underdog, less well armed and smaller forces than it's opponents. It was the determination of the Israelis to resist that was the driving force that created the country not the desire to dominate that you seem to believe. After the near defeat in 1973 the Israeli outlook changed, no longer was defence seen to be enough. The IDF took a much more agressive stance towards threats and in the early 1980s invaded Lebanon to evict the PLO guerillas operating there. It wasn't to colonize it was to sanitize. |
From my knowledge on the issue this above post by Duke is exactly correct. Israel was founded to create a safe homeland for Jews worldwide, and in the begining Israel was at a serious disadvantage. Just think if the Arab didnt start the conflict in the first place then would there be any? I know its not that easy and some Arab Palestinians were forced into refugee camps and this is unfortunate but from a religious standpoint(among others) Israel has a right to survive and mark my words there be many more that will rise against Israel. This has all been foretold. Not to sound like a religious nut My opinion of Israels existance goes more in depth than just Bible prophecies.
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 02:59 |
Originally posted by arch.buff
From my knowledge on the issue this above post by Duke is exactly correct. Israel was founded to create a safe homeland for Jews worldwide, and in the begining Israel was at a serious disadvantage. Just think if the Arab didnt start the conflict in the first place then would there be any? |
So do they teach you in history book that the earliest colonists and the government of the United States had the right to massacre some Native American tribes and force them to move west, because the American colonies were founded to create a safe homeland for religious prosecuted Christians worldwide, and if those American tribes moved to west peacefully and if the Seminole did not fight, they would have not lost their lands, people and pushed out as losers?
I hope you see the flaws of such argument.
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 03:15 |
What I don't understand, is how anyone can possibly defend Israel. Think of the worst things you can do and Israel has done it.
|
|
DukeC
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 12:09 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
What I don't understand, is how anyone can possibly defend Israel. Think of the worst things you can do and Israel has done it. |
If you start from the viewpoint that Israel doesn't have the right to exist any action it takes is going to be wrong. Much of what has been done by Israel has been in the name of defence, something that can't be said for some of it's opponents. Would you be at all upset if one of the many attempts to wipe Israel off the map had succeeded?
Edited by DukeC - 11-Aug-2006 at 12:10
|
|
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 12:53 |
Originally posted by DukeC
If you start from the viewpoint that Israel doesn't have the right to exist any action
it takes is going to be wrong. Much of what has been done by
Israel has been in the name of defence, something that can't be said
for some of it's opponents. Would you be at all upset if one of the
many attempts to wipe Israel off the map had succeeded? |
Are you upset that the attempt to wipe Palestine off the map was, largely, successful?
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
|
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 13:07 |
From the Christian Science Monitor:
On the first day of conflict, Israeli Chief of Staff
Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz vowed to " turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years" if
the soldiers were not returned.
"That's how they create terrorists," says Mohammed, a
Lebanese restaurant owner, while watching the digging effort in
Shiyyah. "And they ask: 'Why do they hate us?'"
*****
Just after first light, Hassan Dirani pulled several stuffed teddy
bears and toys from the rubble, shook off the dust, and gently
assembled them on a slab of concrete, with a blonde doll on top. They
were dolls his own children had given to families displaced by fighting
in the south, who had sought refuge in this "safe" Shiite-Christian
neighborhood.
For Mr. Dirani, his emotions were first about the
children - three of his remained in the rubble. And second, they were
about accusing the US of giving Israel a free hand to destroy Lebanon.
"Thank you, George Bush. Thank you for those 'smart'
bombs," says Dirani, whose wife and surviving son were injured in the
attack. "I want to ask George Bush: 'What did our children do to him?' "
"Even with this, we love the American people. We love
peace and respect Americans," continues Dirani, differentiating
individuals from official policies. Unprompted, shell-shocked Lebanese
now often skip accusations against Israel, and lay blame on its chief
patron.
"I beg Americans not to vote for another butcher and
criminal like George Bush," says Dirani, who works at the environment
ministry. Tearfully, he says his small daughter, now entombed, had been
sharing her excitement about her upcoming sixth birthday party next
week; she wrote out an invitation list of 20 school friends.
"Why does your system and White House do this to us ...
give smart bombs to throw on our people?" asks Dirani. "What are you
going to tell your kids [to explain it]?"
*****
"Imagine if Americans were receiving this, and not
Lebanese," says Yatim. "If these were Americans dying in this massacre,
what would they think?
"We are in the 21st century, and it's unbelievable we
still have people who follow such a savage way," he continues. "There
are 1,000 ways, democratic ways, that [Americans] can protect the world
- not this way."
Then he broke away, as a bucket of rubble was emptied
on a collapsed roof. "There is Riham's toy!" Yatim tells his wife. A
moment later, it was covered by another bucketful.
"Will your words and photographs go out? They won't
stop you?" Yatim asks a visiting reporter, his voice at once broken,
and tinged with challenge. "We don't trust the world anymore."
*****
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0810/p01s03-wome.html
Edited by Mila - 11-Aug-2006 at 13:09
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
|
DukeC
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 13:17 |
Originally posted by Mila
Originally posted by DukeC
If you start from the viewpoint that Israel doesn't have the right to exist any action it takes is going to be wrong. Much of what has been done by Israel has been in the name of defence, something that can't be said for some of it's opponents. Would you be at all upset if one of the many attempts to wipe Israel off the map had succeeded? |
Are you upset that the attempt to wipe Palestine off the map was, largely, successful? |
Palestine was never a nation, this doesn't mean the people displaced by war don't deserve a homeland. This means making a compromise between the groups that still call for the destruction of a state recognized by most of the world and the security needs of that state. We could go on forever with who started what and who was the most violent etc... It makes more sense to me to say we are where we are, how do we find a middle ground where Israelis, Palestinians, Lebanese, Iranians, Americans, Saudis, etc... don't feel it neccessary to continue in this neverending cycle.
|
|
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 13:24 |
Even if the majority of Israelis and Palestinians wish to establish a
peace, there are simply too many issues to ensure that peace lasts.
There will always be Israeli nationalists who wish to establish a state
that encompasses the entire Holy Land - and they will always have a
position of power in the Israeli government.
There will always be Palestinian refugees who will do anything to
return to the homes they were evicted from so recently many can still
remember them. This is especially evident in the occupied territories,
where evictions and colonization continues today.
But it also evident in Israel proper. There are thousands of people
from Jaffa (today's Tel Aviv) who will never stop fighting until Tel
Aviv is destroyed and they are allowed to return to their homes.
It doesn't matter what the Israelis or Palestinians do en masse, there
will always be Jewish fanatics and Palestinian refugees willing to
fight.
The only logical course of action is for Israel to work to make that
number as small as possible, not grow it by thousands every year.
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
|