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Behi
Sultan
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Topic: Persia & Islam, questions plz? Posted: 06-May-2006 at 16:30 |
& keep in mind you accuse me & Iranian as ultranationalists & Rebel
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Fizzil
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 16:32 |
Originally posted by Maziar
@Fizzil, what holds you here and answer very hearthly to Land Of Aryan and Iranian41ife is your Arabic nationalism, admit the truth of it. So you can't blame another people to be nationalists.
Btw, i don't see a probleme with nationalism, it is not the same as pan iranisdm or pan arabism or whatever. Nationalism means only you love your home, at least in Iranian Weltanschauung.
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No, i'm not a nationalist, i respect iranians, i have iranian friends in the UAE, and my descent is iranian but they were arabised long ago, my grandmother still knows Farsi, but i do not, i will at some time learn Farsi, but i'm plenty happy knowing the language that helps me most in this country. I respect Iranian4life and LandofAryan, but sometimes they spread some false messages, it was alright at first, but i had to stand up to Azimuth, first of all he is a fellow countryman and a brother, like all other Iranians and Arabs in the UAE.
Again i'm not a nationalist, just stating simple facts about me, i do not disrespect iranians or spread false messages about them, and i never will, this is as simple as i will put it.
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 16:34 |
infact, i remember that in another forum, azimuth or another one of his arab friends told me that I HAD TO LEARN HOW TO SPEAK ARABIC BECAUSE IT WAS THE LANGUAGE OF GOD!
if they have this type of mentality now, just imagine the mentality they had 1600 years ago! and now they are denying that they ever forced anyone into islam and that they did not commit massacres and mass book burnings. and like aryan said, the dynasty that azimuth claimed to be iranian was actually arab, the tahirids, who burned many bookd and killed many iranians.
again, fizzil and azimuth are avoiding the quote by ferdowsi, that clearly shows that arabs made iranians convert to islam.
you asked for quotes by the people of the time, and i showed you one, why dont you reply to it? was ferdowsi lying too?
Edited by Iranian41ife
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Fizzil
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 16:40 |
So your last line of defence is ferdowsi's poem? why didn't he resist if he didn't like to become muslim?
And where is the proof he was forced? didn't you say he was a devout muslim?
the irony of his peom is pretty immense if you ask me.
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Behi
Sultan
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 16:53 |
@Fizzli:
it didn't say Arab
Scientist(Olama Arab), if you read arabic well, they said Olama ol
Arab, it means scientists that existed during caliphate
times(Scinetists during the reign of Arabs). | Don't make me fool manthere is Yahoo massenger with Arab rooms,I asked people all answer me Olama ol Arab = Arab Scientist
by the page title Olama ol arab, indirectly all remarked as Arab, & yes I read Tehran or Ghazvin, but you didn't said me where is Farsi Alasl in the articles as Majosi???
Go ahead, post parsi websites, not like they are angels or unbiased. | hey I'm not fool, someone is here thet really want to ban me, I don't give him pretext
9.Excessive posting in other languages. English is
the official language in all the forum sections except the "Non-English
Board". |
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 16:54 |
he did become a very devout muslim, that is undeniable, he was muslim till his death and was religious. but the fact remains that he indirectly says that iranians were made to be muslims. obviously they eventually came to accept that fact and become very devout muslims.
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Fizzil
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 16:57 |
Originally posted by Land of Aryan
@Fizzli:
it didn't say Arab Scientist(Olama Arab), if you read arabic well, they said Olama ol Arab, it means scientists that existed during caliphate times(Scinetists during the reign of Arabs). |
Don't make me fool man there is Yahoo massenger with Arab rooms, I asked people all answer me Olama ol Arab = Arab Scientist
by the page title Olama ol arab, indirectly all remarked as Arab, & yes I read Tehran or Ghazvin, but you didn't said me where is Farsi Alasl in the articles as Majosi???
Go ahead, post parsi websites, not like they are angels or unbiased. |
hey I'm not fool, someone is here thet really want to ban me, I don't give him pretext
9.Excessive posting in other languages. English is the official language in all the forum sections except the "Non-English Board". |
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No you ain't a fool, but i hold to what i said.
And if a yahoo messenger IM group is all you can rely on then best of luck. Becuase the argument was beaten to death already.
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Fizzil
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 17:01 |
Originally posted by Iranian41ife
he did become a very devout muslim, that is undeniable, he was muslim till his death and was religious. but the fact remains that he indirectly says that iranians were made to be muslims. obviously they eventually came to accept that fact and become very devout muslims.
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But he didn't say by force
he said uncivilised arabs made him muslim, and thats it.
In comparison to Azimuth's article he is the one with the more credible argument, and guess what his article is far more anti-arab than ferdowsi
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Seko
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 18:05 |
Originally posted by Iranian41ife
like i said before, i had no intention of posting that site as evidence to support my argument. I EVEN TOLD AZIMUTH THAT THE ARTICLE WOULD BE BIASED because it would be from an unfriendly source.
HE TOLD ME TO POST IT ANYWAY. get off my back, you should know as well as i do that i never use sites like that as proof for anything in any of my discussions!
i posted this because i was asked to post it! and we are suddenly ultra nationalists because we are trying to tell azimuth that the arab occupation of iran wasnt a nice little picnic in the park where arabs and iranians got along?
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Iranian41ife you presented your article as a response to Fizzil. You chose a biased article. It wasn't accepted by him either.
Iranian41ife's response to Fizzil (below):
Quote:
you want sources? well i can show you iranian sources, but i dont think you would accept them. | | |
So long as the sources are primary, first hand accounts of historians who have collected evidence and fact during their eras. Or Secondary sources referring to primary sources.
Ok.
__________
Iranian41ife gave this post as his response:
The Iranian Identity Crisis: Islam v. Iranian Identity
By: Paolo Bassi http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11276&am p;am p;PN=1&TPN=3
Obviously, you selectively chose to present that article as your initial response, now you are saying that someone told you to post it? Is this your way of expressing your opinion of Islam? From a biased site? Then expect us to take your concerns seriously. Hmmm!
__________________________________________________________
Land of Aryan, you seem to have a problem with moderators on this fora. I will not get into a debate with you on this matter. I already have said what was necessary. I see that you continue to present your complaints in the meeting hall under this thread: AE Rules for Mods! Though you have that right I also have the right to keep order in this thread and expect no more contraventions of rules.
Edited by Seko
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 18:17 |
Originally posted by Seko
Originally posted by Iranian41ife
like i said before, i had no intention of posting that site as evidence to support my argument. I EVEN TOLD AZIMUTH THAT THE ARTICLE WOULD BE BIASED because it would be from an unfriendly source.
HE TOLD ME TO POST IT ANYWAY. get off my back, you should know as well as i do that i never use sites like that as proof for anything in any of my discussions!
i posted this because i was asked to post it! and we are suddenly ultra nationalists because we are trying to tell azimuth that the arab occupation of iran wasnt a nice little picnic in the park where arabs and iranians got along?
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Iranian41ife you presented your article as a response to Fizzil. You chose a biased article. It wasn't accepted by him either.
Iranian41ife's response to Fizzil (below):
Quote:
you want sources? well i can show you iranian sources, but i dont think you would accept them. | | |
So long as the sources are primary, first hand accounts of historians who have collected evidence and fact during their eras. Or Secondary sources referring to primary sources.
Ok.
__________
Iranian41ife gave this post as his response:
The Iranian Identity Crisis: Islam v. Iranian Identity
By: Paolo Bassi http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11276&am p;am p;am p;PN=1&TPN=3
Obviously, you selectively chose to present that article as your initial response, now you are saying that someone told you to post it? Is this your way of expressing your opinion of Islam? From a biased site? Then expect us to take your concerns seriously. Hmmm!
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nothing will satisfy you guys because everything i post you will say is anti islam. the fact is that that is what actually happened! its not anti islamic, its the truth.
anything that you think is remotely against islam you guys will lable as anti islamic!
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Behi
Sultan
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 18:29 |
look Seko, You accuse Iranian again,
Originally posted by Seko
Iranian41ife you presented your article as a response to Fizzil. You chose a biased article. It wasn't accepted by him either. | The same goes for Fizzil site, you says Iranian chose biased which was not accepted!!why aren't there same action for Fizzili site??I think I've explained enough about it & if you think I'm lier go & ask an arab to Translate Olama ol Arab for you.Then by your term I may claim his source is anti Iranian.Maziar also explained.
Originally posted by Seko
you seem to have a problem with moderators on this fora. | Yes, I have, It's not only my problem when there is double standard & Modertaor troll & Remark
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Seko
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 18:29 |
Iranian41ife,
How you post articles is your business. Just don't expect to recieve a serious debate on it when you refer to propaganda sites. That site is so wrong on many Islamic accounts, and it reflects your biased opinions nonetheless.
The forcefull influence of Islam by Arabs on Iran is inconclusive, as I had said before. Your whole purpose appear to make us believe that the religion was forced. Now you only accepted the Iranian role in distorting Islam after members here debated your facts. That is not anti anything but common sense. Choose your accusations carefully.
LOA, Fizzil appears to repeat himself clearly for you guys. He stressed that Ferdozi wasn't forced and Fizzil did not accept an internet IM as proof of your arguement.
Edited by Seko
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Behi
Sultan
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 18:36 |
well now the Arab Ibn Khaldon speak to you about Arab:"Arabs dominate only of the plains, because they are, by their savage
nature, people of pillage and corruption. They pillage everything that
they can take without fighting or taking risks, then flee to their
refuge in the wilderness, and do not stand and do battle unless in
self-defense. So when they encounter any difficulty or obstacle, they
leave it alone and look for easier prey. And tribes well-fortified
against them on the slopes of the hills escape their corruption and
destruction, because they prefer not to climb hills, nor expend effort,
nor take risks. Whereas plains, when they can reach them due to lack of
protection and weakness of the state, are spoils for them and morsels
for them to eat, which they will keep despoiling and raiding and
conquering with ease until their people are defeated, then imitate them
with mutual conflict and political decline, until their civilization is
destroyed. And Allah is capable of their creation, and He is the One, the Victorious, and there is no other lord than Him." Azimuth do you still insist they were kind& Ibn khaldon Says about Iranian:Thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi
and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descentthey invented rules
of (Arabic) grammargreat jurists were Persians only the Persians
engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic
scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes
apparent, 'If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven
the Persians would attain it"The intellectual sciences were also the
preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not
cultivate themas was the case with all craftsThis situation continued
in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq,
Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their
sedentary culture." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun & Rechard Frye ( If he doesn't consider as Anti Islam):
" Arabs no longer understand the role of Iran and the Persian
language in the formation of Islamic culture. Perhaps they wish to
forget the past, but in so doing they remove the bases of their own
spiritual, moral and cultural beingwithout the heritage of the past
and a healthy respect for itthere is little chance for stability and
proper growth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nelson_Frye
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Behi
Sultan
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 18:54 |
Originally posted by Seko
LOA, Fizzil appears to repeat himself clearly for you guys. He stressed
that Ferdozi wasn't forced and Fizzil did not accept an internet IM as
proof of your arguement. |
Do you really read posts?? or choose some words that you like to attack us??!! Did I speak about Ferdousi??? where is it??? you misunderstood me with Iranian you can't read Arabic but I can read & understand some words, I said about it: http://www.alnoor.info/Scientists/zaman.asp& I didn't say IM is my Proof, first read what I said then find arab out of AE, anyhow you like, & ask him what Olama ol Arab means then back & accuse me & so if you can;t read, Fizzil answerd:
Originally posted by Fizzil
Quote:Iranian
i
cant read arabic...... did you expect everyone can just because its
supposed to be God's language? isnt that the excuse the arabs used to
force it on others? |
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Its not my business you can't read or not, you just claimed that
arabs claim everything is theirs, and believe me, only a minority of
pan-arabs do. Which is why i linked you to this website. |
I've to repeat my post, may be you read those:
Seko it's for you to, read it
have nice days therewould you Translate for others what does it mean at Title of page "Olamo Ol-ARAB" = ARAB scientist??
doesn't title say all are Arab??? 1. it about Razi
ينتمي
أبو بكر
الرازي إلى
القرن
الثالث
الهجري، ولد
في مدينة
الري جنوبي
طهران بفارس.
وعاش الرازي
في أيام
الخليفة
العباسي عضد
الدولة،
وكان مجلسه
من العلماء
والحكماء.
وقد استشاره
الخليفة
عندما أراد
بناء
المستشفى
العضدي في
بغداد، وذلك
لاختيار
الموقع
الملائم له. Would you show me the words of " Irani or Farsi Alasl " = Iranian or Persian Orgin ???? 2. Ghazvini (means from ghazvin, a city 120 Km far away from tehran) هو أبو عبد
الله بن زكريا بن محمد القزويني 48; ينتهي نسبه إلى أنس بن مالك عالم
المد&a mp;a mp;a mp;# 1610;نة. ولد بقزوين في حدود سنة 605 للهجرة، وتوفي سنة 682 هـ، اشتغل
بال&a mp;a mp;a mp;# 1602;ضاء مدة، ولكن عمله لم يلهه عن التأليف في الحقول العلمية. ففقد شغف
بالفلك، والطبيعة 48; وعلوم الحياة، ولكن أعظم أعماله شأناً هي نظرياته في علم الرصد الجوي. same for him, Where is " Farsi Alasl " 3.
Attar neishabori ( Neishabori deleted from his name & his birth
place from article, same as ghazvini, neishabouri means from neishabor) هو أبو الخير ابن أبي البقاء النيلي، المعروف بابن العطار،
طبيب
مذكور من أبناء القرن السابع الهجري. نزل بغداد، وكان خبيراً بالعلاج
ف&a mp;a mp;a mp;# 1578;قرب من دار الخلافة، ذكره ابن العبري في (مختصر تاريخ الدول، وقال أنه
عمر طويلاً وحصل مالاً كثيراً. وكانت وفات ابن العطار سنة 608 هـ .4. Majosi,
هو علي بن العباس المجوسي، من
أطباء الدولة العباسية في أواسط مدتها، فارسي الأصل، أهوازي الموطن. اشتغل في صناعة
الطب
على أبي ماهر موسى بن سيار. اتصل بعضد الدولة بن بويه، وصنّف له كتاباً مشهوراً في
الطب
اسمه (كامل الصناعة الطبية الضرورية واشتهر باسم (الكتاب الملكي، فيه عشرون مقالة وما زال مخطوطاً. قال
ابن أبي أصيبعة: (هو كتاب جليل مشتمل على أجزاء الصناعة الطبية علمها وعملها. وقال القفطي: (مال الناس إليه في وقته، ولزموا درسه، إلى أن ظهر كتاب
ابن سينا فمالوا إليه. وكانت وفاة ابن المجوسي حوالي السنة 400 هـ
.wow waht's happend?? a Miracle???
NO bcuz of his Name " Majos (= arabs called/calles iranian as Majos
after invasion as I know means freed slave [Azimuth denies it] ) " our
Arabs freind without any Identity problem (Azimuth claimed it ) wrote
Farsi olasl (= Iranian orgin ) but still under Olma Ol-Arab=ARAB
scientist title
any way thanks for Link, Azimuth could learn something about who has Identity Crisis
Fizzil wrote:
Quote:Iranian
i
cant read arabic...... did you expect everyone can just because its
supposed to be God's language? isnt that the excuse the arabs used to
force it on others? |
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Its not my business you can't read or not, you just claimed that
arabs claim everything is theirs, and believe me, only a minority of
pan-arabs do. Which is why i linked you to this website. |
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Wise answer, next time I'll post article in Parsi & it'll be ur problem to read it, non of my business, OK?? & also I proved that your site indirectly claimed that they were arab
Iranian wrote:
so it gives it more credibility that a non-iranian wrote that!
why would a western guy care so much to write about iran and the arab occupation if it wasnt true? |
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Give it up Iranain, If we use article by Iranain author, we accused to use Pan Iranist( which doesn't exist) source, or If we use western article, we accused to use anti Islam source!!
But a site in Arabic which claims Iranian as Arab is reliable source!!!
&
@Fizzli:
Quote:
it didn't say Arab
Scientist(Olama Arab), if you read arabic well, they said Olama ol
Arab, it means scientists that existed during caliphate
times(Scinetists during the reign of Arabs). |
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Don't make me fool man there is Yahoo massenger with Arab rooms, I asked people all answer me Olama ol Arab = Arab Scientist
by the page title Olama ol arab, indirectly all remarked as Arab, & yes I read Tehran or Ghazvin, but you didn't said me where is Farsi Alasl in the articles as Majosi??? |
Edited by Land of Aryan
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Seko
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 19:00 |
Originally posted by Fizzil
So your last line of defence is ferdowsi's poem? why didn't he resist if he didn't like to become muslim?
And where is the proof he was forced? didn't you say he was a devout muslim?
the irony of his peom is pretty immense if you ask me.
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LOA, this is one of the points Fizzil made. He talks about Iranian41ife using it as a defense in his arguement. Your article on scientists is not what I based my concerns on, but the page of dialoque before that! He did not discuss Ferdozi with you but the scientists. Can I make this any eaisier for you to understand?
Here is his interaction with you on it:
Land of Aryan wrote:
@Fizzli:
Quote:
it didn't say Arab Scientist(Olama Arab), if you read arabic well, they said Olama ol Arab, it means scientists that existed during caliphate times(Scinetists during the reign of Arabs). | | | Don't make me fool man there is Yahoo massenger with Arab rooms, I asked people all answer me Olama ol Arab = Arab Scientist
by the page title Olama ol arab, indirectly all remarked as Arab, & yes I read Tehran or Ghazvin, but you didn't said me where is Farsi Alasl in the articles as Majosi???
Quote:
Go ahead, post parsi websites, not like they are angels or unbiased. | | | hey I'm not fool, someone is here thet really want to ban me, I don't give him pretext
Quote:
9.Excessive posting in other languages. English is the official language in all the forum sections except the "Non-English Board". | | |
| | |
Originally posted by Fizzil
No you ain't a fool, but i hold to what i said.
And if a yahoo messenger IM group is all you can rely on then best of luck. Becuase the argument was beaten to death already.
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Edited by Seko
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Fizzil
Pretorian
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Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 197
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 19:07 |
LOA, first post:
No proof of forced conversion.
Second post:
Take my explanation or leave it.
Olama al Arab is differen from Olama Arab. Previously the website used to have "Olama Arab wa Muslimeen" in it, but they decided to shorten the title. Also why did they mention Majosi? doesn't that contradict the entire article?
Thats the final time i explain it.
Also fyi, most of these scientists mentioned of writing and talking in arabic, the term is not ethnic(again not ethnic) but general, but you guys always seem to make it an ethnic issue. Wikipedia has more on the issue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Arab_scientists_an d_scholars
So please don't take it out of context.
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Behi
Sultan
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 19:11 |
LOA, this is one of the points Fizzil made. He talks about
Iranian41ife using it as a defense in his arguement. Your article on
scientists is not what I based my concerns on, but the page of dialoque
before that! |
Why Must I repeat my post always??? & I said you, by your view Iranian & Fizzil are equal:
look Seko, You accuse Iranian again, but
Seko wrote:
Iranian41ife you presented your article as a response to Fizzil. You chose a biased article. It wasn't accepted by him either. |
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The same goes for Fizzil site, you says Iranian chose biased which was not accepted!! why aren't there same action for Fizzili site?? I think I've explained enough about it & if you think I'm lier go & ask an arab to Translate Olama ol Arab for you. Then by your term I may claim his source is anti Iranian. Maziar also explained. | Do you get my point or still want to repeat ur words??& your action agianst us since some months ago, espesialy against myself & call me Ultranationalist & Rebel concern me
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Behi
Sultan
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Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 19:14 |
@Fizzil: I understand what you said, & Answered you:
by the page title Olama ol arab, indirectly all remarked as Arab, & yes I read Tehran or Ghazvin, but you didn't said me where is Farsi Alasl in the articles as Majosi one??? |
ostamble();
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Seko
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 19:18 |
LOA, when you troll out of the blue and drag me into this arguement you need to know that I do not take such behavior lightly.
You have presented your pro Iranian stance many times. NO problem. Yet your material is often portrayed in a light where it is one sided.
When you call for the heads of Moderators, yes it concerns me. When you share my PM's in public it concerns me. Hence a rebel.
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Behi
Sultan
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 19:32 |
I wonder, you want to hear others word & beleived them but not ours are you really honest?? & I think It's your last shoot to accuse me to troll!!! now you can ban me, go ahead, NO PROBLEM & don't think I didn't understand your mean in article in AE magazine, it was clear signal directly to me, wasn't it??
Originally posted by Seko
When you call for the heads of Moderators, yes it concerns me. When you share my PM's in public it concerns me. Hence a rebel. |
have you ever read it,
In the case of reporting misconducts of a staff member, they must be
addressed to an administrator (preferably) or another moderator.
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& was your PM a secret one??? it was about Merced12 & his troll which concered all of us, I post in Iranian hamvatanan forum to relax others. on that time I thoght you were neutral mod!! It is/was dream!
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