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Topic: Turks in the Mongol Horde Posted: 25-Oct-2004 at 12:10 |
Now I know that the Mongol horde had some turkic tribes and people in its armies(and its conquered territories).
But what I want to know is, were there any famous turkic generals or tribes that helped Chingis Khan or his sons/grandsons conquer asia?
Thanks.
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Guests
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Posted: 25-Oct-2004 at 12:13 |
Oh yeah and if you have pics or links to pics of turks that would be awesome
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Chono
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Posted: 25-Oct-2004 at 13:51 |
What do you mean by "Mongol Horde"?
The chief of the Onguts helped a lot, and got one of CK's daughters.
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ihsan
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Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 08:21 |
Hi Luke, welcome to AE (you might also think of registering at our The Steppes History Forum)
Now I know that the Mongol horde had some turkic tribes and people in its armies(and its conquered territories).
But what I want to know is, were there any famous turkic generals or tribes that helped Chingis Khan or his sons/grandsons conquer asia? |
The Mongol armies had troops from many Turkic peoples such as the Qrghz, Qal, Qpchaq, Trkmen, Qarluq, etc. Apart from them, as Chono said, the gt people helped Chinggis Kha'an to enter Jin territories.
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Guests
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Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 10:47 |
Recommend any books or sites where I can learn more about these tribes, or clans? < name=bessBar_text>>
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Kubrat
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Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 17:07 |
The Mongol armies had troops from many Turkic peoples such as the Qrghz, Qal, Qpchaq, Trkmen, Qarluq, etc. Apart from them, as Chono said, the gt people helped Chinggis Kha'an to enter Jin territories. |
Ok.. it's official... Every couple of weeks you make the spelling of the tribes' names more and more difficult .
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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
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Akskl
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Posted: 07-Nov-2004 at 21:58 |
Hi, everybody!
Ketbuqa was Naiman, Muqali was Jalair. Naimans and Jalairs always were
Turkic speaking tribes (read Paul Ratchnevsky "Genghis Khan - His Life
and Legacy", Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes", etc.), and are
parts of Kazakhs.
Read about Turkic tribes in China in 13-14th centuries:
http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=263
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Chono
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 07:11 |
Naimans and jalairs have never been turkic, except the ones who went west to establish the Golden Horde.
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Akskl
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 21:37 |
Please read this page and the following:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/1 02-7255325-0723365#reader-page
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Akskl
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 21:40 |
Link doesn't work. Try this one - skip first few pages with Contents Illustrations and read the text, please:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/1 02-7255325-0723365#reader-link
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Akskl
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 21:45 |
If this link doesn't work too - go to www.amazon com and enter
"Ratchnevsky" into "Search". You can read few first pages where
Professor Paul Ratchnevsky writes that the Naimans, Kereits, Jalairs
were TURKIC SPEAKING TRIBES no matter what Chono thinks.
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babyblue
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Posted: 09-Nov-2004 at 01:51 |
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Gubook Janggoon
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Posted: 09-Nov-2004 at 18:00 |
Hehe babyblue so friendly....
BTW Hi from me too!
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Chono
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Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 05:42 |
Obviously, if Ratschnevsky supposedly said that that must be true. Babyblue, you're funny
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Akskl
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Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 20:49 |
R.P.Lister "Genghis Khan" Cooper Square Press, 2000 (first published in New York in 1969) p.21, 10-th line from beneath: "...There were other steppe peoples too, the Huns of long ago, and the Turkish peoples, such as the Naimans and the Uighurs..."
Marco Polo, his father and uncle spoke with Emperor Kublai Khan in Turki language:
http://www.silk-road.com/artl/marcopolo.shtml
"...The Great Khan, Mangu's brother, Kublai, was indeed hospitable. He had set up his court at Beijing, which was not a Mongol encampment but an impressive city built by Kublai as his new capital after the Mongols took over China in 1264 and established Yuan dynasty (1264-1368). Kublai asked them all about their part of the world, the Pope and the Roman church. Niccolo and Matteo, who spoke Turkic dialects perfectly, answered truthfully and clearly. The Polo brothers were well received in the Great Khan's capital. One year later, the Great Khan sent them on their way with a letter in Turki addressed to Pope Clement IV asking the Pope to send him 100 learned men to teach his people about Christianity and Western science. He also asked Pope to procure oil from the lamp at the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem..."
http://www.uscolo.edu/history/seminar/sauma.htm
YAHBH-ALLAHA ELECTED PATRIARCH
"...The reason for his election was this: The kings who held the steering poles of the government of the whole world were MUGLAYE (Mongols), and there was no man except MAR YAHBH-ALLAHA who was acquainted with their manners and customs, and their policy of government, and their language..."
MAR YAHBH-ALLAHA was Ongut Turk
http://www.uglychinese.org/mongolian.htm
"... The truth, however, is that the word 'Mongols' was adopted and sanctified by Khubilai, much later than the Mongols knew about this name. Before this name change, the Mongols called themselves 'Tartars', in fact..."
"...Chinese sources tried to trace the origin of the word 'Mongol', and it had located a tribe called 'Mengwu', said to be a Shiwei tribe of the Tang Period prior to AD 907. This name would later become Moghul in Turkic and Mughal in Persian..."
"...Though the Naimans are said to be of Turkic origin...""
Keraits East of the Naimans, from the Orkhon River in the west to the Onon and Kerulen rivers, was the new home of the Keraits. This is a group of people that had been disputed by Tao Zongyi (T'ao Tsung-i 1316- ?) to be Mongols, but Rashid ad-Din placed them in a subgroup with the Naimans, Uygurs, Kirghiz, Kipchaks and other Turkic peoples while acknowledging the resemblances between the Keraits and the Mongols. Still one more Chinese, Tu Ji, in his "History of the Mongols" (Mengwuer Shiji), assumed that the Keraits were Turkic and originated from Turkic Kangli and Ghuzz and their language was Turkic. It was also said that an important Kirghiz tribe bears the name of Kirai, which is equivalent to Kerait. ... ...Yisugei had helped Kerait chieftan, Toghrul, twice. Toghrul was resented by his tribesmen for killing his brothers. When Toghrul was defeated by his uncle and fled with few hundreds of horsemen, Yisugei would come to his aid and drive Toghrul's uncle to Tanguts' Western Xia territory. Later, Toghrul's brother rebelled as well, and Toghrul had to flee southwestward to the three statelets of 'Hexi', 'Huihu' and 'Huihui' (Uygur, Qiangic and Tibetan territories) for asylum. Thereafter, Toghrul sought asylum with the Kara Khitans. When Toghrul escaped back to Mongolia, Timuchin would give him a good reception and treat Toghrul as 'father'. Timuchin later defeated the Merkits and gave the captured people to Toghrul. Toghrul hence gained strength. Toghrul and Timuchin cooperated few times in fighting the Naimans thereafter. The importance of Keraits would lie in the fact that Timuchin sought the protection under Toghrul ...
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Akskl
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Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 23:09 |
DEBATING GENGHIS KHAN
Controversy over the ethnic origin of the great commander
Erbol ZHUMAGULOV
http://www.inauka.ru/english/article36435.html
http://www.inauka.ru/english/article36435.html/forum/
Diggers Find Genghis Khan's Mausoleum
Genghis Khan, who was a Mongol or Kazakh, conquered most of Asia and Eastern Europe in the early 13th century.
http://www.wixt.com/entertainment/wierd_news/story.aspx?cont ent_id=AE3DE2EF-FDE6-4C65-AE99-BB3A57975C26
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Chono
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Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 09:27 |
Man, you've been proved wrong in numerous forums, I won't even begin discussing this. The question is not if CK was mongol or not, it's if you're a kipchak-mongol mixture, a kipchak-sart mixture or a kipchak-russian mixture.
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Guests
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Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 14:44 |
Kazakhs (Turkic nation,moslems, qazaq) consist
of from Chenggishanits (Jushids, Chagataids), kiats (kiat-kuralas,
kiat-chanchiut), from turkic tribes, which name is nirun*:
duhlat, suhan, wusun [wisut], qataghan [katakin] and etc., beside which
exist and before is remembered legends and folk legends that own of the
origin rise from clean womb of Alan-Goa; and turkic-mongolian tribes,
named darlekin: kungirat, argin [darlekin tribes konfederation from Ergune-kun], as well as kerait, naiman, kipshak, jalair, kangly, alshyn [tatar - alshyn].
Today,s mongols from Mongolia don't have any Chenggishanits, niruns and kiats. That is to say "mongols without mongol" and " Toys mongols with pygmean horses"
Man, you've been proved wrong in numerous
forums, I won't even begin discussing this. The question is not if CK
was mongol or not, it's if you're a kipchak-mongol mixture, a
kipchak-sart mixture or a kipchak-russian mixture. |
If we are a kipchak- sart or russian mixture, then you are a bandy-legged Chinese
*Rashid ad-Din. Jami' at-tawarikh (1307), t.1, books 1and 2, M-L. 1952. (in russian)
Edited by BekD
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ihsan
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Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 13:31 |
The Jalairs were a Mongol clan, that is so clear. Why debate it and claim they were Turkic? That is so pointless.
I hate nationalism
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mongke
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Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 21:37 |
As far as I am concerned Chingghis Khan was a mongol. Turks assimilated mongols in the Golden Horde and in the Chagatai Khanate. It does seem a little bit like a mongol-turk partnership.
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