Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Topic: Evolution and Monotheism Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:34 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Leonardo
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
In Islam I can't see any
problem, the Qu'ran has plenty of scientific facts in it and everyone
has turned out to be correct. I consider Evolution to be one of these,
although Maziar in the idoletry thread seems to disagree. |
This guy, Harun Yahya, preaches against evolution:
http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/
I wonder how popular are his views among muslim believers ...
|
Muslims against Evolution - LOL! The Bush camarilla is making friends quickly.
|
Yeah, looks like Christian thinking being taken up by muslims. I don't see why any muslim needs to deny evolution.
|
|
Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod
Joined: 06-Nov-2005
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1155
|
Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:58 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by Maziar
Darwin's theory may not be perfect, but it is more logical and acceptable than believing in Adam and Eve myth or God has created the univers befor 6000 years in only 6 days.
|
Maziar, I thought you were an ex-muslim. Without looking up the exact words, the Qu'ran says: The universe was created in 6 days, but a day unto Allah is like 50000 years unto man. The number of years changes in different parts of the Qu'ran to emphise that the number of years is not important, mearly that it is a very long time, aeons. Quite signifcantly longer than 6000 years. Surely the rotation of the earth, or the earth about the sun is a silly way of measuring time, when you talking about the creation of the entire universe!
|
Yes my friend i know that, but here i mean religions generaly, also christianity included. And yes i am an ex-moslem.
Edited by Maziar
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 02:11 |
So tell us your arguement then, why did you change your faith?
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 03:56 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by barish
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
What I don't understand, is what
the problem with evolution is. How does evolution have any affect on
anyones religous beliefs regardless of whether they are muslim,
christian, hindu etc. The way I understand it, is that because it
exists, God must have meant it to exist. |
You mean Adam existed, but he was looking like a monkey?
|
The difference between man and ape being cognative thought and
intelligence. Why not? In fact if you remove intellegence from humans,
we pretty much are monkeys. |
Not monkeys (that are another branch of primates) but great apes. But for the rest you are right.
Of course this means if an Ape is a Librarian and a senior faculty member in a certain university, he would count as a man.
|
This raises a most interesting question. There are no ape librarians
obviously but there are apes, specially chimpanzees and bonobos, our
closest cousins, that have shown rather surprising intelectual
abilities. I read once of a chimp that had been rated of a non-verbal
IQ of 80, which is well below human average but above some of our
species.
Verbal abilities are surely another specific trait of humankind: Leakey
already compared a human and a chimp brain to conclude that it's not
just overall size but that there are two main regions of huma brain
that are specially overdeveloped: frontal and lateral lobes, the ones
in charge of cognitive though and comunication. It seems that our
communicative ability, that allows us to exchange knowledge and to
organize cooperative effort, is a very important though often
underrated human ability.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Cezar
Chieftain
Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
|
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 06:05 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
In Islam I can't see any problem, the Qu'ran has plenty of scientific facts in it and everyone has turned out to be correct. I consider Evolution to be one of these, although Maziar in the idoletry thread seems to disagree. |
Where can I find a copy of the Qu'ran? I would like to see for myself how "scientific" it is. Is there a site where I could read the Qu'ran?
I really doubt that it has plenty of "scientific facts". I think it's as full as the Bible (OT, NT, whatever). Why are the islamic fundamentalists not posting? Their christian counterparts seem to be doing it.
|
|
gcle2003
King
Suspended
Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
|
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 07:48 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Of course this means if an Ape is a Librarian and a senior faculty member in a certain university, he would count as a man.
|
This raises a most interesting question. There are no ape librarians obviously
|
Are you casting slurs on my avatar?
And sorry, Omar, while I personally appreciate your remark, if you go around calling the Librarian a man (as opposed to an ex-man) you are likely to have trouble reconnecting your head to your neck
Edited by gcle2003
|
|
Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod
Joined: 06-Nov-2005
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1155
|
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 15:14 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
So tell us your arguement then, why did you change your faith? |
Oh, very difficult question and indeed difficult to answer. It hadn't happened in a one night, i has taken many years. But something is sure, i always had doubt, even on my childhood. I always had to hide my doubt, but now in Germany there is no reason to hide.
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 21:15 |
Originally posted by Cezar
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
In Islam I can't see any
problem, the Qu'ran has plenty of scientific facts in it and everyone
has turned out to be correct. I consider Evolution to be one of these,
although Maziar in the idoletry thread seems to disagree. |
Where can I find a copy of the Qu'ran? I would like to see for
myself how "scientific" it is. Is there a site where I could read the
Qu'ran?
I really doubt that it has plenty of "scientific facts". I
think it's as full as the Bible (OT, NT, whatever). Why are the islamic
fundamentalists not posting? Their christian counterparts seem to be
doing it. |
This looks like a good site, it has three english translations for reference
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
This is a site which links to many Islam and science type sites, I don't know how many are good or not.
http://www.ummah.net/directory/menu/science.html
This one looks Ok, its only on embryology though:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6377/Embryonic.html
ADDITION: This site was posted in another thread:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sci_quran.htm
Edited by Omar al Hashim
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 21:37 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Of course this means if an Ape is a Librarian and a senior faculty member in a certain university, he would count as a man.
|
This raises a most interesting question. There are no ape librarians obviously
|
Are you casting slurs on my avatar?
And sorry, Omar, while I personally appreciate your remark, if you
go around calling the Librarian a man (as opposed to an ex-man) you are
likely to have trouble reconnecting your head to your neck |
I love your avatar. Although I can't recall an incident where anyone
called the Librarian a man, most of the head reconnection incidents
involve monkeys.
|
|
gcle2003
King
Suspended
Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
|
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 04:17 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Of course this means if an Ape is a Librarian and a senior faculty member in a certain university, he would count as a man.
|
This raises a most interesting question. There are no ape librarians obviously
|
Are you casting slurs on my avatar?
And sorry, Omar, while I personally appreciate your remark, if you go around calling the Librarian a man (as opposed to an ex-man) you are likely to have trouble reconnecting your head to your neck
|
I love your avatar. Although I can't recall an incident where anyone called the Librarian a man, most of the head reconnection incidents involve monkeys.
|
Of course that is more common. I'm just very careful about whom I meet when I'm wandering around the little piece of L-space that my cellar has turned into.
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 04:58 |
Unfortunately I have not yet amassed enough books in one place to warp
the fabric for space-time so I do not have an entry into L-space.
|
|
Cezar
Chieftain
Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
|
Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 06:11 |
Thanks for the links Omar. I must admit that I like Quran style rather than the Bible's. But that doesn't make it different. It's better written IMO and that's about all. Sorry I'm not getting any faith from it. To take a few words from whatever holy book and state that they are congruent with some scientific theory is pure interpretation. I could quote both the Quran and the Bible and consider the words as being at least hilarious. Keep your faith as long as you don't feel like hurting people because of it.
*BTW what happened to Iblis?
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 01:20 |
Do you mean Iblis as in Satan or another Iblis?
If you mean in the Qu'ran the word has probably been translated to Satan or similar.
I've always considered the description of the embryo fairly free of interpretation.
|
|
R_AK47
Baron
Joined: 25-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 468
|
Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 12:52 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
What I don't understand, is what the problem with evolution is. How does evolution have any affect on anyones religous beliefs regardless of whether they are muslim, christian, hindu etc. The way I understand it, is that because it exists, God must have meant it to exist.
|
Omar, for once I must agree with you. I have often wondered this same thing. I've always thought that, if evolution does exist, then it is a process that God uses for his purposes. I don't know why it has become a science versus religion battle. Proving the existance of evolution (I doubt the scientists have come even close to figuring it out, if exists at all) does not mean that God does not exist. It simply means that we now know a method he has used to create the life forms we see today. Of course, I am speaking from a christian standpoint.
Edited by R_AK47
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 13:01 |
It's become religion vs. science because some fundamentalists like
reality to adapt to their dreams... and, well... it seldom happens.
It's religious fanatics who attack science in the name of exactitude of
the Bible and things like that, it's religious fanatics who want
philosophy and tehology to be teached in science classes.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
OSMANLI
Colonel
Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
|
Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 13:29 |
Evolution theory is just that, a THEORY.
Charles Darwin was a rasist. He claimed that the white race is higher then all othersand that all other races are the inbetween of Human's and Ape's. It led to evil ideologies such as Nazism and Fasism.
The missing link has yet to be found.
Below is a statement by an evolutionist:
A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God.
Mark Czarnecki, "The Revival of the Creationist Crusade", MacLean's, January 19, 1981, p. 56.
The following is by a creationist:
Life Emerged on Earth Suddenly and in Complex Forms
When terrestrial strata and the fossil record are examined, it is to be seen that all living organisms appeared simultaneously. The oldest stratum of the earth in which fossils of living creatures have been found is that of the Cambrian, which has an estimated age of 500-550 million years.
The living creatures found in the strata belonging to the Cambrian period emerged all of a sudden in the fossil record-there are no pre-existing ancestors. The fossils found in Cambrian rocks belonged to snails, trilobites, sponges, earthworms, jellyfish, sea hedgehogs, and other complex invertebrates. This wide mosaic of living organisms made up of such a great number of complex creatures emerged so suddenly that this miraculous event is referred to as the "Cambrian Explosion" in geological literature.
Most of the creatures in this layer have complex systems have complex systems and advanced structures, such as eyes, gills, and circulatory systems, exactly the same as those in modern specimens. For instance, the double-lensed, combed eye structure of trilobites is a wonder of design. David Raup, a professor of geology in Harvard, Rochester, and Chicago Universities, says: "the trilobites 450 million years ago used an optimal design which would require a well trained and imaginative optical engineer to develop today".28
These complex invertebrates emerged suddenly and completely without having any link or any transitional form between them and the unicellular organisms, which were the only life forms on earth prior to them.
http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/chapter5.php
|
|
|
gcle2003
King
Suspended
Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
|
Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 13:53 |
Originally posted by OSMANLI
Evolution theory is just that, a THEORY.
Charles Darwin was a rasist. He claimed that the white race is higher then all others
|
Evidence?
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 14:04 |
Originally posted by OSMANLI
Evolution theory is just that, a THEORY. |
That's it: it is a scientific theory and not just the babbling of a monk in his hallucination.
Charles Darwin was a rasist. He claimed that the white race
is higher then all othersand that all other races are the inbetween of
Human's and Ape's. It led to evil ideologies such as Nazism and Fasism.
|
Learn before you talk.
So called "Social-Darwinism" and racism pre-date Darwin. You're mixing apples with elephants.
The missing link has yet to be found. |
Hundreds of "mising links" have been found.
Genetics allows us to prescind largely of fossils anyhow.
Below is a statement by an evolutionist:
A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil
record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's
geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of
Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear
and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist
argument that each species was created by God.
Mark Czarnecki, "The Revival of the Creationist Crusade", MacLean's, January 19, 1981, p. 56. |
As I say, with genetics you can skip all that.
Also, we know two things now:
a/ evolution islargely puntuated: it doesn't happene gradually but by sudden jumps
b/ most fossils just can't be found. It's a miracle that we can see some of them
The following is by a creationist:
Life Emerged on Earth Suddenly and in Complex Forms
When terrestrial strata and the fossil record are examined, it is to
be seen that all living organisms appeared simultaneously. The oldest
stratum of the earth in which fossils of living creatures have been
found is that of the Cambrian, which has an estimated age of 500-550
million years.
The living creatures found in the strata belonging to the Cambrian
period emerged all of a sudden in the fossil record-there are no
pre-existing ancestors. The fossils found in Cambrian rocks belonged to
snails, trilobites, sponges, earthworms, jellyfish, sea hedgehogs, and
other complex invertebrates. This wide mosaic of living organisms made
up of such a great number of complex creatures emerged so suddenly that
this miraculous event is referred to as the "Cambrian Explosion" in
geological literature.
Most of the creatures in this layer have complex
systems have complex systems and advanced structures, such as eyes,
gills, and circulatory systems, exactly the same as those in modern
specimens. For instance, the double-lensed, combed eye structure of
trilobites is a wonder of design. David Raup, a professor of geology in
Harvard, Rochester, and Chicago Universities, says: "the trilobites 450
million years ago used an optimal design which would require a well
trained and imaginative optical engineer to develop today".28
These complex invertebrates emerged suddenly and completely without
having any link or any transitional form between them and the
unicellular organisms, which were the only life forms on earth prior to
them.
http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/chapter5.php |
So what?
It wasn't that way but, if it was that way, what? It is still totally different than how it's written in Genesis.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 18:57 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by R_AK47
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
What I don't understand, is
what the problem with evolution is. How does evolution have any affect
on anyones religous beliefs regardless of whether they are muslim,
christian, hindu etc. The way I understand it, is that because it exists, God must have meant it to exist.
|
Omar, for once I must agree with you. I have often wondered this
same thing. I've always thought that, if evolution does exist, then it
is a process that God uses for his purposes. I don't know why it has
become a science versus religion battle. Proving the existance of
evolution (I doubt the scientists have come even close to figuring it
out, if exists at all) does not mean that God does not exist. It
simply means that we now know a method he has used to create the life
forms we see today. Of course, I am speaking from a christian
standpoint.
|
It's become religion vs. science because some fundamentalists like
reality to adapt to their dreams... and, well... it seldom happens.
It's religious fanatics who attack science in the name of exactitude of
the Bible and things like that, it's religious fanatics who want
philosophy and tehology to be teached in science classes.
|
Well said R_AK47. What I would like to know, is why religous fantics see the need to dispute over the theory of evolution.
Originally posted by Osmanli
Evolution theory is just that, a THEORY.
|
Osmanli, you sound like the perfect person to answer my question. I
take it from that quote that you do not believe in the theory of
evolution. I would like to know from what religous stand point do you
have any reason to doubt the theory. Agreed it is only a theory but so it the Theory of Gravity. Religously how can you justify arguing with science?
|
|
TeldeIndus
Earl
Joined: 04-Jan-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 258
|
Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 19:20 |
Originally posted by Maju
Also, we know two things now: a/ evolution islargely puntuated: it doesn't happene gradually but by sudden jumps
|
Gradual speciation cannot account for historical events. Rectangular speciation doesnt make any sense to me - you can prove anything theoretically.
b/ most fossils just can't be found. It's a miracle that we can see some of them
|
I dont see why. It's too coincidental that you dont find any intermediate species fossils, only distinct ones.
Edited by TeldeIndus
|
We are not without accomplishment. We have managed to distribute poverty - Nguyen Co Thatch, Vietnamese foreign minister
|
|