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mamikon
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Topic: Karabakh Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 19:09 |
If there are any Azeri posters here, I was just wondering why the Azeri
government believes that Nagorno Karabakh was always Azerbajani.
Is this also taught in history books and passed along orally?
Also what is said about Nagorno Karabakh in your historic books during
the like 500 BC and 500 AD? What people lived there according to your
books? Did Armenians ever live there?
I am just wondering what your mentality is
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 00:31 |
There were only 1-2 Azeris here, but they don't post much.
In Azerbaijan, it is believed that proto-Azeris have been living in the area for 3000-4000 years. They beleive that that the inhabitants of both Karabagh and Azerbaijan are Albanian (the "ancestors" of the Azerbaijani), and not Armenian. According to Azerbaijani point of view, Karabagh is an area which was initially under Albanian control, which Armenians constantly tried to conquer during Antiquity.
Armenians supposedly came from Iran in the 1800s. Prior to that, Azeris were the majority group in what is now the Republic of Armenia.
This surely comes close to what Azeris learn in their country.
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mamikon
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 00:39 |
interesting...what about all those old, old, Greeka dn Persians maps that mention Armenia?
And didnt Albanians become Christian at some point?
And if they are Albanian, what common do they have with Turkey?
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 03:55 |
When speaking about ancient Armenia, we need to bare in mind that as a name of a land it did not reflect the lands ethnic composition, just one of them. Accordng to Herodotus, there were four major groups which inhabited "Armenia": The Armenians, themselves, Saspirians, Alarodians, and Matienians. The region of Nagorno-Karabakh was the land of the Saspirians. The original land of the Armenians in the west, by the upper Euphrates. The Alarodians (the Urartians) inhabited the region about Lake Van, and the Matienians lived in the easternmost part of ancient Armenia to the west of Lake Urmia. Based upon earlier Urartian sources as to the ethnic makeup of the Saspirians and Matienians, they were either Caucasic-speaking or Hurrian-speaking tribes, just like the Alarodians, themselves.
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mamikon
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 08:07 |
Arent Saspirians and Alordians considered Kurds. I couldnt find
anything about Matienians. And in most history books (non-Armenian)
arent Urartians considered as kinds of pre-Armenians? not Alordians.
This is the first time I have seen the word Alordian . They are not described in any of the western sources. Can you recommend some books to read on Alordians and Saspirians?
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 17:11 |
Arent Saspirians and Alordians considered Kurds. |
I'm not sure about that. I think the Kurds invented that, in order to justify the creation of Kurdistan in historical Armenia and Assyria.
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 01:58 |
The first source I would recommend reading is Herodotus, preferably a volume with a complete index to look up the names of the tribes I've mentioned. I did give an almost exhaustive list of passages in Herodotus and Xenophon in another thread to illustrate the ethnic composition of Armenia in the fifth century BC. The only group which Herodotus did not give much detail regarding were the Alarodians, but since he gave enough detail as to where the other tribes were located, by a process of elimination, the one region which he did not describe was the region around Lake Van where the Urartians were the dominant power. The name Alarodioi has enough similarity to Assyrian Urartu and to Hebrew, Ararat, that it is almost a total certainty that the classical Alarodians were the more ancient Urartians. The Saspirians and Alarodians don't seem to have survived as ethnic groups by the 1st century BC, when Tigranes the Great expanded the Armenian Empire in all directions. The Matianians gave their name to Lake Urmiya which in some classical geographies was known as the Matiane limnae.
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Maju
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 02:52 |
Originally posted by mamikon
And if they are Albanian, what common do they have with Turkey?
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They were turkified: they speak turkic now. It's pretty obvious, isn't it? Just like Anatolian Turks.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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mamikon
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 07:30 |
I was refferering to those who were lviing in the Georgian territory in ancient times
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 23:10 |
I thought that Iberians (along with another Kingdom on the Black sea coast) lived in what is now Georgia.
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mamikon
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 00:54 |
It was called Albania as I can recall on maps
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 16:30 |
In later classical geographies, Iberia would be where eastern Georgia is today (western Georgia was ancient Colchis), and Albania was where Azerbaijan is at present.
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mamikon
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 18:58 |
Oh yeah probably
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/1729.jpg
at least according to the map. I know wikipedia is not a reliable source for text, but maps are a little different
There is also a version where Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. But what does this have to do with Turks in Azerbaijan
Did Ancient Albanians even exist when Turks came? Or maybe the Ancient
Albania and the current Albania are different things, but same name by
accident.
I wonder if Albanians in Albania now study Caucasian (Mainly ancient Albanian) history?
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 19:42 |
There are theories claiming that Albanians came from the Caucasus, but that theory was probably made up by Albania's ennemies... Today, Albanians believe that they are descendants of Illyrians.
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 00:39 |
A hint as to the survival of the ancient Albanians is that we do have manuscripts of the Bible written in Albanian. It is a Caucasian language related to modern language of the Udis and thus related to Lezgian. These manuscripts date from the 12/13th centuries AD, already 2 centuries after the first appearance of the Seljuq (Oghuz) Turks.
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mamikon
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Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 02:09 |
so where do the original Albanian live at?
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 03:38 |
They live in an small area within Azerbaijan, known today under the name of the Udi.
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mamikon
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Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 08:50 |
ooooooh, cool. So do Azeries study their history in schools?
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 09:01 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by mamikon
And if they are Albanian, what common do they have with Turkey?
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They were turkified: they speak turkic now. It's pretty obvious, isn't it? Just like Anatolian Turks.
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What you mean here is, Albanian originated people just being like the Anatolian Turks right now?
Edited by Kapikulu
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
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mamikon
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Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 12:17 |
Yeah but Albanians were living in the Caucasus for almost 2000 years before Turks came...
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