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Jay.
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Topic: Serbian Medieval History Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 17:53 |
Wtf? Dark blonde and blue eyes? What the hell?
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Maju
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Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 18:09 |
Originally posted by Sarmata
I might have misunderstood but just to clear up,
are you saying that Serbs and Croats are just a Slavicized people and
not really slavic at all? |
They are Slavic in the sense that they speak Slavic languages and feel
Slavic. But their genome shows that they are diferent from Poles,
sharing a big deal of their genetic pool rather with other non-Slavic
Balcanic peoples.
That's normal: even if the Slavic infiltration of the 7th century was
massive (something that we just don't know) the previous inhabitants of
the region (Romanized or Hellenized Dalmatians, Thracians, Illyrians,
etc.) would have mostly remained in their villages and towns, adapting
to the new new situation. It's a wrong idea to think that language and
culture is the same as genetic background: peoples adapt and adopt
(even via such violent means as slavery), while mass genocides or
"ethnic cleansings" are rather the exception (very concentrated in
modern times) than the rule.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Scytho-Sarmatian
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Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 04:58 |
Originally posted by Jay.
Wtf? Dark blonde and blue eyes? What the hell? |
That's actually a pretty good description of me.
BTW, Sarmata, thanks for your response. I'm one of those with roots in White Croatia.
It's funny that nobody has mentioned the connection between the Serbs
and the modern Sorbs of eastern Germany. They're obviously two
branches of the same people.
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Maju
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Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 09:51 |
Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian
It's funny that nobody has mentioned the connection between the Serbs
and the modern Sorbs of eastern Germany. They're obviously two
branches of the same people.
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That's curious. What's the connection apart of the name?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Sarmata
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Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 15:42 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian
It's funny that nobody has mentioned the connection between the Serbs
and the modern Sorbs of eastern Germany. They're obviously two
branches of the same people.
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That's curious. What's the connection apart of the name?
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They are the same people ethnically. Serbs and Croats migrated somewhere form the east, maybe the caucasus as some people believe they were a branch of the Sarmatian tribes (there is evidence of this as there are carvings of tribes names very similar to HRVAT which means Croat). The serbo-croats migrated eventually to southern Poland, Croats made a kingdom centered around Krakow, Serb settled between the areas of easter Gemany and western Poland. Then a Byzantine emperor called for their assistance against the Avars and in return would give them land, this was the same ting the western roman emperors did to Vandals and Goths; promised them land in return for servitude, we all know how that ended up. It's curious because later the Avars and Slavs would ally and sometimes the Avar empire is called a Avar Slav empire, as some slavs assimilated with Avars. Not all the Croats and Serbs form southenr Poland migrated south, we see Sorbs today still exist in eastern germany. During the reign of Boleslaw Chrobry, First King of Poland, he connected that lands of the western Slavs to the kingdom of Poland which included upper and lower Lusatia, where the Lusatian Serbs or Sorbs live. The Sorbs acctually consider Boleslaw a national hero. The Croats or Chrobatians(white croats) were still around during Boleslaws rule, which shows not all of them migrated south. All this shows that Slavs have relations between themselves which is greater then just linguistics. I also ask any of you, if your curious as I was, tolook at Boleslaw I Chrobry's name; Chrobry the nickname that Ive always been taught to mean, Valiant or brave, when I looked the word up, it was noe wher ein a dictionary. Maybe its just old Polishlanguage? maybe. OR it could mean Boleslaw of Chrobatia (Chrobacja)? Mieszko did give Boleslaw originally to be prince of the soouthern lands befor ehe ruled the entire kingdom. Not only that remember Tomislav? Croatian king, who made croatia into a very powerful nation, by the end of his reign, he just disappeared...maybe, to Chrobatia? Perhaps there is a closer relation to the Croats and Poles then we think. Just a thought.
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Sarmata
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Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 15:45 |
Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian
Originally posted by Jay.
Wtf? Dark blonde and blue eyes? What the hell? |
That's actually a pretty good description of me.
BTW, Sarmata, thanks for your response. I'm one of those with roots in White Croatia.
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If we'd be in the 9th century or so Id be calling myself a Chrobatian right now as well...perhaps there's little difference really, we jsut dont know as much as we'd like.
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Socrates
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Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 04:32 |
Many Germans have slavic 'genes'-until the 12th century there was some slavic peoples in (modern) Germany-in the 12th century they were germanized-the todays Macklenburg-Pomeranie in germany is an example-POMERANI-slavic-by the sea(more=sea)-first duke of Macklenburg was a ruler of Obodrite tribe(bodryci=the brave ones).
Now Maju,there's not too many nations calling or being refered to as Serbs-it's a self-given name,not a latin term(your example of Albanians).
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Maju
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Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 11:16 |
Originally posted by Socrates
Many Germans have slavic 'genes'-until the 12th
century there was some slavic peoples in (modern) Germany-in the
12th century they were germanized-the todays Macklenburg-Pomeranie in
germany is an example-POMERANI-slavic-by the sea(more=sea)-first duke
of Macklenburg was a ruler of Obodrite tribe(bodryci=the brave ones).
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You're surely right in the sense that the colonzation of the east by
Germans obviously assimilated many Slavs alreadyl living there,
specially in the formerly Polish regions of Pomerania and Silesia.
On the other hand, it's vane to speak of Slavic or Germani genese,
specially when Germans had also inhabited those regions centuries
before, in the Ancient Age, and therefore, Slavic migrations also
surely assimilated Germans in places such as Bohemia or Eastern
Germany, which surely weren't total deserts when the Slavic tribes
arrived. If we want to go further back, most of Germany (and Bohemia
and other Central European regions) had been earlier inhabited by
Celts, who again were largely assimilated by Germans. Even earlier,
some of those regions were inhabited by other less known peoples (maybe
Illyrians, Italics or who knows?) and Celts assimilated them, etc. So
talking about ethnic genes in most cases is a dangerous excersise.
Now Maju,there's not too many nations calling
or being refered to as Serbs-it's a self-given name,not a latin
term(your example of Albanians). |
I don't think I mentioned Albanians in this threat. It was someone else.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Scytho-Sarmatian
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 03:20 |
A "dangerous exercise," eh?
Be afraid, be very afraid!
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Jay.
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Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 13:01 |
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Socrates
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Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 05:25 |
I wasn't refering to actual genes-simply stated that a significant number of Germans have got distant(or not that distant) slavic ancestry-which is ironic considering views of the nazi's-that slavs r inferior to germanics...
About the Sorbs-u went around my question-Albanians were just an example(latin alba appearing at different locations-don't try to represent me as one of those nationalists that propagate the Caucasus theory)
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Sarmata
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Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 18:20 |
Ther Germanic and Slavic tribes have a long history of bad blood, and I doubt they have ancestry between one another, unless ou mean for example eastern germans might because of Slavic settlements long ago, and the present Sorbian population. Slavs caleld germans "Niemcy" which means mute or dumb, meaning its a safe assumption to say they didnt understand one another.
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Socrates
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Posted: 09-Jan-2006 at 14:51 |
Originally posted by Sarmata
Ther Germanic and Slavic tribes have a long history of bad blood, and I doubt they have ancestry between one another, unless ou mean for example eastern germans might because of Slavic settlements long ago, and the present Sorbian population. Slavs caleld germans "Niemcy" which means mute or dumb, meaning its a safe assumption to say they didnt understand one another. |
I didn,t say it happened through "mutual love and understanding"...however it is a fact that many of baltic slavs were germanized-and it wasn't in ancient times-more like in the medieval ones.Obodrites(or bodrichy in slavic-the brave ones) r a perfect example:
The Obodrites' independent principality, which was developed by the early 9th century, was conquered in the middle of 12th century by Henry the Lion, duke of Saxony, after a long resistance lead by its last pagan prince, Niklot (d. 1160). Niklot's son Przybyslaw (Pribislav; d. 1178) accepted Christianity, acknowledged German suzerainty, and he was recognized in 1170 as a prince of the Holy Roman Empire. Both his descendants became the dukes of Mecklenburg and the Obodrite people eventually became Germanized...
Edited by Socrates
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Socrates
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Posted: 09-Jan-2006 at 14:56 |
Btw, the term Nemecy could be also rooted from germanic tribe Nemety in eastern Germania.
Edited by Socrates
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HistoryGuy
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Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 16:43 |
Hej Sarmata, where do you think the people you know with dark skin and dark eyes in Poland originally come from (I mean in terms of their ancestors)? Like Roma or something?
Edited by HistoryGuy
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هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.
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Maju
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Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 17:28 |
Originally posted by Socrates
Originally posted by Sarmata
Ther Germanic and Slavic tribes
have a long history of bad blood, and I doubt they have ancestry
between one another, unless ou mean for example eastern germans might
because of Slavic settlements long ago, and the present Sorbian
population. Slavs caleld germans "Niemcy" which means mute or dumb,
meaning its a safe assumption to say they didnt understand one
another. |
I didn,t say it happened through "mutual love and
understanding"...however it is a fact that many of baltic slavs were
germanized-and it wasn't in ancient times-more like in the medieval
ones.Obodrites(or bodrichy in slavic-the brave ones) r a perfect
example:
The
Obodrites' independent principality, which was developed by the early
9th century, was conquered in the middle of 12th century by Henry
the Lion, duke of Saxony, after a long resistance lead by its last
pagan prince, Niklot (d. 1160). Niklot's son Przybyslaw (Pribislav; d.
1178) accepted Christianity, acknowledged German suzerainty, and
he was recognized in 1170 as a prince of the Holy Roman Empire.
Both his descendants became the dukes of Mecklenburg and the Obodrite
people eventually became Germanized... |
And not just in the Middle Ages. In Ancient times, several German
tribes (Goths are the more famous) settled in Slavic territory. I'm
sure they intermixed then too.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Socrates
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Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 08:44 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Socrates
Originally posted by Sarmata
Ther Germanic and Slavic tribes have a long history of bad blood, and I doubt they have ancestry between one another, unless ou mean for example eastern germans might because of Slavic settlements long ago, and the present Sorbian population. Slavs caleld germans "Niemcy" which means mute or dumb, meaning its a safe assumption to say they didnt understand one another. |
I didn,t say it happened through "mutual love and understanding"...however it is a fact that many of baltic slavs were germanized-and it wasn't in ancient times-more like in the medieval ones.Obodrites(or bodrichy in slavic-the brave ones) r a perfect example:
The Obodrites' independent principality, which was developed by the early 9th century, was conquered in the middle of 12th century by Henry the Lion, duke of Saxony, after a long resistance lead by its last pagan prince, Niklot (d. 1160). Niklot's son Przybyslaw (Pribislav; d. 1178) accepted Christianity, acknowledged German suzerainty, and he was recognized in 1170 as a prince of the Holy Roman Empire. Both his descendants became the dukes of Mecklenburg and the Obodrite people eventually became Germanized...
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And not just in the Middle Ages. In Ancient times, several German tribes (Goths are the more famous) settled in Slavic territory. I'm sure they intermixed then too.
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So those Nazis had some slavic ancestry...-Hitler is turning in his grave.Poor Nazis with their 'pure blood' theories-makes me wanna cry
This guy must be out of his mind:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3608& ; ;KW=inferior+slavs
Or this Aryan(he actually calls himself Aryan):
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=603& KW=ossetian&TPN=1
I don't understand how they can write such things...and nobody seems to mind...
Edited by Socrates
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Maju
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Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 09:55 |
Austria itself is built up on Slovenian lands for the most part. I'm
sure that the Slavs there weren't exterminated nor expelled for the
most part: just assimilated.
Yes the Nazis and their poor blood theories are way pathetic. Not
just there's no pureblood race at all (even the purest groups are mixed
in one or another way) but also Europeans aren't "Aryans" (i.e.
Indo-Europeans) by blood for the most part - and if any group would be
closer to that these would be Eastern Europeans and specially some
Slavic groups.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
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Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 10:11 |
Iranians and some Indians have always called themselves Aryans. Iran
(Aryanam) actually means the land of the Aryans. It doesn't have a
racial sense but an ethnic sense. Let's not mix things, what is absurd
is the Nazis imported the term from people they would surely consider
"inferior" but in Asia is a common term. Is the same about the
svastika: in Europe and America it's become a dreadful symbol of greed
and destruction but in Asia is common among many cultures (not just
Indo-Europeans, also is frequent among Buddhist East Asians) and it's
basically a symbol of good fortune. But ulike the svastika, which was
also relatively common in Europe and even America before Hitler's
megalomaniatic crimes, the term Aryan is totally alien to Europe.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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violentjack
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Posted: 11-May-2006 at 13:54 |
Originally posted by Jay.
having trouble with this..
I have some of the Medieval Serbian Rulers..
Lazar, Prince Oliver, Despot Uros, King Vladislav II, King Milutin, King
Anyone have any others?
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Uros is Dragutin Uros 1243-1271 famous traveler and writer
Milutin took southern Macedonia mostly and Skoplje in 1299,was longest ruler of Serbia,so he is almost most famous 1281-1321
Dusan was skilled ruler he used Kantakuzemos-Paleogolous Byzantine
civil war to increase Serbia all the way to Sallonica.Fuj kakve ste vi
Srbende,kada vam Bosnjo zna bolje vasu historiju od mene
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Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite
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