Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 22:21
THE TURK wrote: "You are right. The main problem is that Turkish government wants to be
a part of the EU. As you said, We Turkish citizens must solve
this problem." What is the problem? THe material and political benefits not great enough? The material cost to turkey for complying to the EU to high?
Can some turk answer these without mentioning anything about 1 percieved threats, 2 pride and other unmeasurables, 3 stuff that happend decades ago that are not reality today.
Hmm, well I've mentioned, oppresion of Human Rights, disrespect towards
religions, threat of war against a full member and neighbor that
actually assisted Turkey instead of vetoing the talks, the fact that
they don't recognize an already full member.... etc. a
But this tops it all, NEVER had I ever believed I'd read anything remotely close to this..
I have always been considered an anti-Turk nationalist, let's see what I get titled this time...
---------------------
10 November 2005:
A Turkish military black-ops scandal has been unfolded
in the city of Semdinli in eastern Turkey (Turkish Kurdistan) after three
Turkish black-op sergeants from the Turkish Gendarmerie Intelligence Service
(JIS) were caught red-handed by citizens after attacking a bookstore on November
9.
The sergeants were almost lynched by upset Kurds but were rescued by
Turkish police. Kurds broke into the car in which the sergeants had carried out
their attack on the bookstore and they found WEAPONS, BOMBS, DEATH-LISTS,
WRITTEN PLANS, MAPS, etc. Everything was documented by Kurds at the scene. The
Kurds also manage to get their hands on one of the sergeants military ID and
their pictures were taken before the police managed to rescue the sergeants.
The sergeants later confessed during interrogation to the Turkish
Republican Prosecutor of Semdinli that they had carried out the attack on the
bookstore, which killed one person and seriously wounded another one. Lo and
behold! They ALSO confessed that they had carried out the bomb attack on
November 1 outside a military residency in the city that injured 23 people,
among them 3 Turkish police officers, 4 Turkish soldiers and 16 Kurdish
civilians.
THAT bomb-attack was blamed on the PKK by every god damn
media outlet in the world, even though PKK denounced the attack. Turkish
military black-ops in a nutshell!
If the military of the NATO-member
Turkey carries out this type of black-op attacks, then what not? And they call
the Kurds in Turkey "terrorists".
Unrest in Semdinli after bomb attack by
Turkish gendarmerie intelligence: 2 dead, 15 wounded
-----
source http://cryptome.org/
Let me hear just one member speak of Kurd terrorists and dead people
again, at least this time they know who to blame and that is...
THEIR OWN !!!!
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
There's been a lot of suspicious bombings lately, not just in Kurdistan
and, obviously not just by Turk soldiers. Remeber the SAS members
caught with bombs and weapons in Iraq - and we can guess many others
haven't just been spotted. Some seem to prefer throwing oil to the
fire...
a big change to the situation of the nagotiations will come soon .the
new german goverment with the cdu and week spd will avoid a membership
of turkey. the new chancellor ,miss merkel allways talks at every
opportunity of a so called emancipated partnership. and if you will
make a poll in germany ,a big mayority will decline an entry of turkey
to the ec,sure.
in my opinion there's no reallistic chance for turkey. and this of course will be fatal for europe.
Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361
Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 03:14
Originally posted by Phallanx
Hmm, well I've mentioned, oppresion of Human Rights, disrespect towards
religions, threat of war against a full member and neighbor that
actually assisted Turkey instead of vetoing the talks, the fact that
they don't recognize an already full member.... etc. a
But this tops it all, NEVER had I ever believed I'd read anything remotely close to this..
I have always been considered an anti-Turk nationalist, let's see what I get titled this time...
Well, I'm glad somebody keeps an eye on Turkey.
All we need now, is a member that observes the Human Rights situation in Greece, that according to Amnesty International is not ideal either, with the same vigilance, and we will be kept abreast with all the dodgy deeds in the Aegean.
Any volunteers?
Well, I'm glad somebody keeps an eye on Turkey.
All we need now, is a member that observes the Human Rights
situation in Greece, that according to Amnesty International is not
ideal either, with the same vigilance, and we will be kept abreast with
all the dodgy deeds in the Aegean. Any volunteers?
Well sorry that I'm interested and continuously check out exactly what is going on in my neighborhood..
While you feel glad, I'm honestly disappointed, I honestly did expect
something better from you Komnenos, you that have seen endless
topics in which the Kurds are titled murderers, a plague...etc.
Finally the oppressed are justified, finally terror has a name,
yet you make petty comparisons to Hellas. I'd be expecting that from
one of the Turkish members, since comparison is the name of the game
whenever an 'odd' news article pops up..
This is far beyond Human Rights, this is far beyod any form of
oppression of a minority or immigrant. Anyone can see the ORGANIZED
plan to exterminate yet another minority.
Only this time, they've managed to find some 'moral' support, since the
whole world has given the Kurds that damn 'terrorist' title, a title
that has a made in Turkey stamp on it, a title that was literally made to be worn by the Turkish Gendarmerie Intelligence Service
(JIS) and all those that support, fund and make the decisions ..
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Hmm, well I've mentioned, oppresion of Human Rights, disrespect towards
religions, threat of war against a full member and neighbor that
actually assisted Turkey instead of vetoing the talks, the fact that
they don't recognize an already full member.... etc. a
But this tops it all, NEVER had I ever believed I'd read anything remotely close to this..
I have always been considered an anti-Turk nationalist, let's see what I get titled this time...
Well, I'm glad somebody keeps an eye on Turkey.
All we need now, is a member that observes the Human Rights
situation in Greece, that according to Amnesty International is not
ideal either, with the same vigilance, and we will be kept abreast with
all the dodgy deeds in the Aegean. Any volunteers?
i think that its strongly recommended that millions have their eyes on
that what happens in turkey ,sure komnenos .dont be cynical but
relistic.
Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361
Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 11:29
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
i think that its strongly recommended that millions have their eyes on
that what happens in turkey ,sure komnenos .dont be cynical but
relistic.
As you are relatively new here, let me explain.
What bothers me is not, that somebody critisizes the human rights situation in Turkey, as there surely is something to critisize, but the hypocracy with which is undertaken.
I doubt very much that some of our regular "human rights in Turkey watchers" care about Kurds, Armenians etc. one single second, in fact they couldn't give a damn. The one and only reason it is continously being brought up are not the human rights violation themselves, but the fact that they happen in Turkey and thus offer the perfect opportunity to denounce the Turkish state, its people and its culture.
If they would spend only a fraction of the effort they devote to Turkey, to their own or any other country that violates human rights, then they would actually attain some credibility or respect, but, alas, that is not the case.
So, its just plain old "Turkey bashing" and where that comes from and where that leads to, you, as somebody who lives in Germany, probably know best.
Well it seems you really missed bashing the bad old Fascist and you finally got your minute of glory..
Congratz Komnenos, once again you resort to the same childish name calling, by posting innuendos about Germany and fascism...
Call it bashing, call it fascistic mentality, call it whatever you like.
FACTS are FACTS !!!!
KURDS have been oppressed with the excuse of PKK, this article PROVES
that not only is the opression of Human Righs INTENTIONAL but that once
again, as so many other times in the history of the country in question.
They use PROPAGANDA to EXTERMINATE minorities..
Call it fascist, call it bashing, I couldn't care less about your
opinion about me and my posts, since I call it what it is, and that is
REALITY !!!
So take off those predjudice glasses you're wearing and look into the
face of it.. It won't hurt you know, just might get you in touch with a
new feeling, which is hate against any form of oppression...
Oh, next time please direct your issues about my post directly towards me and not by innuendos through post towards others..
Edited by Phallanx
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Someone gets automatically opressed if someone does terror on his NAME!
For example if i a german guy did bomb czech buildings out there and i organize a terrorist activity who's called "german freedom" or something. And someother a normal german civilian who born in czech republic, who lives there, works there. Every day on TV he see's some guys terrorise czech with german freedom names, shouldnt he get opressed by this?
We got (and have) Turkish (!) Kurds here who did say and proove the other side of the story, do you remember Katun30? Or a active member here Arfunda? Just ask them...
The sergeants were almost lynched by upset Kurds but were rescued by Turkish police. Kurds broke into the car in which the sergeants had carried out their attack on the bookstore and they found WEAPONS, BOMBS, DEATH-LISTS, WRITTEN PLANS, MAPS, etc. Everything was documented by Kurds at the scene. The Kurds also manage to get their hands on one of the sergeants military ID and their pictures were taken before the police managed to rescue the sergeants.
The sergeants later confessed during interrogation to the Turkish Republican Prosecutor of Semdinli that they had carried out the attack on the bookstore, which killed one person and seriously wounded another one. Lo and behold! They ALSO confessed that they had carried out the bomb attack on November 1 outside a military residency in the city that injured 23 people, among them 3 Turkish police officers, 4 Turkish soldiers and 16 Kurdish civilians.
Are you saying that Turkish security forces are killing their own friends? Do not be ridiculous.
They did not confess anything mentinoned in the news. This news is wrong. But they are being interrogated by security forces. It is true that it has been found weapons and maps but no such things as death-lists and bombs.
It is normal security forces carrying weapons or having maps with them. What is wrong with this?
They were around the scene and most probably the attack was conducted to kill them. But since they were in civil cloths and since they seem foreigner to locals or they made some suspicious behaviors they seemed suspected to locals.
We have to wait the consequences of interrogations or if they sent to court, the decison.
Phallanx, in your country people are assumed guilty without going to court?
Well it seems you really missed bashing the bad old Fascist and you finally got your minute of glory..
Congratz Komnenos, once again you resort to the same childish name calling, by posting innuendos about Germany and fascism...
Call it bashing, call it fascistic mentality, call it whatever you like.
<span style="font-weight: bold;">FACTS are FACTS !!!!</span>
KURDS have been oppressed with the excuse of PKK, this article PROVES
that not only is the opression of Human Righs INTENTIONAL but that once
again, as so many other times in the history of the country in question.
They use PROPAGANDA to EXTERMINATE minorities..
Call it fascist, call it bashing, I couldn't care less about your
opinion about me and my posts, since I call it what it is, and that is
REALITY !!!
So take off those predjudice glasses you're wearing and look into the
face of it.. It won't hurt you know, just might get you in touch with a
new feeling, which is hate against any form of oppression...
Oh, next time please direct your issues about my post directly towards me and not by innuendos through post towards others..
In the same fact-finding spirit that Phallanx claims to have, I am quoting and emphasizing the opening paragraphs on the article on Greece by Amnesty International.
Apperantly, the Roma are Greece's Kurds.
The document is full of FACTS and more FACTS. And it bring a proper dosis of REALITY and balance into the discussion.
I hope that the new feeling of hate against all kind of oppression will spread to every single one of us, and that we will use this hatred of oppression to stop our own country's human rights violations.
Maybe Phallanx will show us the way by starting a thread dedicated to discussing human rights violations in Greece, and outlining what actions he has taken to remedy these violation. Since his hatred of oppression makes him be very vigilant of what happens in his neighbor state, I am sure that he uses the same care to eradicate oppression in his native country.
Greece
OUT OF THE SPOTLIGHT
The rights of foreigners and minorities are still a grey area INTRODUCTION
"Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth, or other status."
Article 2, Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Freedom from discrimination is the basis upon which the protection of human rights rests. The failure to guarantee freedom from discrimination is thus a fundamental failure in such protection practices. Amnesty International has documented various aspects of this failure around the globe. This report outlines the situation in Greece. It documents a consistent pattern of human rights violations across a range of fields that stem from the failure of the state to combat discrimination, in the practices of its representatives as well as of non-state actors. These practices range from the denial of protection to refugees and the ill-treatment of migrants, to the forced eviction of Roma from their settlements and the inadequate protection of minority rights.
In a previous report on Greece, published jointly with the International Helsinki Federation in 2002,(1) the persistence of human rights violations, and ill-treatment in particular, was documented. One of the major findings in that report was that "Roma and immigrants are particularly at risk of abuses at the hands of law enforcement officials" and that "the pattern is sufficiently clear to leave little room for doubt that xenophobia and racial profiling have played a part in the human rights violations suffered by members of these groups".
Since 2002, there has been little change to this pattern, despite the fact that new domestic legislation has been put in place to deal specifically with the areas of concern highlighted in that report, as well as with various other aspects of discrimination. The legislation relates to the use of firearms, access to justice, combating trafficking in human beings, and immigration control. The reports received by Amnesty International of human rights violations in the period between 2002 and 2005 show that many of the provisions of this legislation, especially those designed to protect human rights and to safeguard freedom from discrimination, are yet to be implemented.
This report contains an indicative sample of the cases of alleged human rights violations received by Amnesty International in the last three years. It is neither exhaustive, nor does it cover all aspects of human rights violations in Greece. It rather focuses on violations affecting marginalized populations in the country, such as migrants and minorities.
Well, OK, for the sake of argument, I'll say that this wasn't a staged attack to kill several people and blame it on the PKK.
Then please find a logical explanation for the name list, a list that
isn't only mentioned in the above article (since 'dozame' may be
considered biased propaganda) but also in zaman and rantburg (that also gives the names of the JIS officers) among other news sites
While I will agree that it is logical for a member of security forces
to be armed, I can't find any reason to keep the arms hidden in the
trunk of the car and not on or near him (see BBC)
But anyway, you're right, I'll wait for the jury to decide.. and then restart it
DayI
That wasn't what I said or at least if it seems that way, I didn't intend it to sound like that.
I was implying that, should these two bombings be proven to be the
action of the Turkish Gendarmerie Intelligence Service
(JIS), then the PKK have been implicated for no reason in a number of
such attacks and the real terrorists are the (JIS) and those behind
them..
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
You and Komnenos may strive all you like, but these are petty attempts of bashing.
Turkish members actually understood the significance of such an issue yet you two are far too thick-headed to understand it..
This is a rediculous comparison to what I provided, which is news that
actually point to Turkish secret service forces being behind the deaths
of thousands of lives, news that should worry each and every one of us.
But you two simply out of predjudice can't comprehend it..
You two are honestly a waste of my time...
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Such an event took place and it is under inspection. Most probably it was the plan of a secret ultra-nationalist clique in the military. BUT, claiming that the all Kurdish problem and the deaths related to it are all consequences of a state conspiracy like you is bullsh*t. Conspiracies only work for flaming the already-existing struggless. So your one-dimensional analysis of the Kurdish question that all deaths were caused by state is wrong. The real problem is much more complex...
Well you're right the "deaths
of thousands" in my last post was an exaggeration, I guess I just get
annoyed when some are too damn predjudice to see whats going on and pushed the numbers a bit in reaction.
Of course not all deaths of either side are due to these or similar
actions. But either if we title it a conspiracy theory or not, it does
make you at least skeptical about what the real extent of the PKK's
actual power is and if these last two bombings preformed by no doubt
ultra-nationalist, are the only two on their list.
Edited by Phallanx
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
You and Komnenos may strive all you like, but these are petty attempts of bashing.
Turkish members actually understood the significance of such an issue yet you two are far too thick-headed to understand it..
This is a rediculous comparison to what I provided, which is news that
actually point to Turkish secret service forces being behind the deaths
of thousands of lives, news that should worry each and every one of us.
But you two simply out of predjudice can't comprehend it..
You two are honestly a waste of my time...
Take it as you wish, hater of oppression. I want to see how you apply the same level of scrutiny to your own nation. Your failure to do so will be proof that your intention of raising this issue has more to do with bias against Turkey than with any real interest in human rights.
And let's not confuse the tone that Turkish members have when discussing this issue with the loud, inflamatory tone that you have used so far.
In any case, there is very little that you can do to help the Kurds in Turkey, but there is a lot that you can do about helping the Roma in Greece.
When are you starting the thread on human right violations committed in Greece, hater of all kinds of oppression? The Roma need your help.
No, sorry you take it as you wish, the issue I pointed out is crystal
clear to all of us except those that are totally predjudice against
everything I post, those that don't miss a chance of getting on my back.
The issue I brought up has absolutely NO connection to Human Right
violations. But even if it did, I have never stated that there are no
such issues in Hellas.
I do find it quite interesting that while you address me with sarcasm,
while you question my actions, someone you literally no nothing about.
You never once took a hard look in the mirror.
You must have spent not more than a minute to look up A.I reports in Hellas. Why didn't YOU present one of the 40 pages
pertaining to the US or the 10 on UK, what about the Hellinic
'tsiganoi' that were slaves in UK flower farms. But why would you, that wouldn't suit you
cause, so instead you looked up the 4 pages on Hellas ??
Roma ???
There is no such people in Hellas, you, A.I..etc may choose to
put that label on them, but to us, simply because that is what they
have chosen, they are the 'tsiganoi/ athiganoi'..
They live as they like and neither I nor anyone can do anything about
it. But once again, you don't know the first thing about me or my
relation to these people.. sorry but you're barking up the wrong tree..
If you want to talk about Hellas, I suggest YOU open up the topic you
so much care for, since you already managed to trash this one with
totally irrelevent posts.. Just in case you forgot the topic is :
More- should Turkey join the EU???
Edited by Phallanx
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
I find you very amusing. Within the same page, you state things, take them back, twist them, and then restate them.
It seems that you can't handle people holding you responsible for what you say. When people do that, you are being persecuted. Amusing.
Let's review some of your contradictions:
Originally posted by last one
The issue I brought up has absolutely NO connection to Human Right violations.
KURDS have been oppressed with the excuse of PKK, this article PROVES that not only is the opression of Human Righs INTENTIONAL but that once again, as so many other times in the history of the country in question.
They use PROPAGANDA to EXTERMINATE minorities..
If were prejudiced against you, I would say that I caught you lying. Since I am not, I will say that I found an inconsistency in your argument.
I also find it very amusing how you presented yourself as an ardent 'hater of any form of oppression' when it comes to Turkish human right violations, look at your quote:
It won't hurt you know, just might get you in touch with a new feeling, which is hate against any form of oppression...
Yet you lose interest in oppression when it happens in Hellas.
You even claimed that there were only four pages on Greece on the Amnesty International report. If one copy-and-pastes the text on the website to a word document, the report on Greece is 76 pages.
Frankly, I don't worry too much about Human Right violations in Greece right now because I have those committed by the U.S. to focus on. I also don't want to offend or embarrass Greek members. I love Greek's ancient history, and almost all of my interactions with Greek people have been positive.
I just asked you to start that thread to see if it really was "the hatred to all kinds of oppression" that moved you to discussed at length human violations in Turkey or your prejudice against this country.
Your refusal to judge your own country using the same standards seems to indicate that it was your prejudice that makes you monitor Turkey so closely.
At least have the decency of stating that you are anti-Turkey. Then other members will know about your bias, and they will take that into account when reading your posts. Sure, people may think less of you for holding these views, but if holding hatred against Turkey is so important in your life, then you must be prepared to take responsibility for them.
On the other hand, your cries about being persecuted seem to indicate that you don't want to be held responsible. If it bothers you so much to looked down for holding hateful views and ideals, why don't you give them up then?
And one more thing stop hiding your anti-Turkish sentiments behind a false "hatred for all kinds of oppression." It is sickening to use this sentiment to hide prejudice.
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