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Racial clashes in Sydney Australia

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Racial clashes in Sydney Australia
    Posted: 22-Dec-2005 at 03:01
Constantine XI bravo, for what you have acheived and for what you said. 
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 18:53

In Australia's case I want to point out, once and for all, that poverty is extremely rare here. Australia is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet and continues to be economically very dynamic. Moreover, this is coupled with a welfare system which outdoes all but a handful of nations on the planet and makes the US welfare system look just about neglectful. You would actually have to try quite hard, through a display of flagrant ingratitude towards the state, to actually have your welfare benefits cut.

I think that poverty in this country is an issue I can speak on with a good understanding. I was born poor, my mother was a young and recently arrived migrant while my father was (still is) a locally born Aussie from the country with no understanding of things like responsibility, planning, integrity and hard work. This mix inevitably led to great economic difficulties. By age three me, mum and little brother were effectively dependent on the state. We had gone from being poor to being very poor. Mum's family was on the other side of the planet, dad's was of little help; we were on our own. I didn't begin noticing until about age 6, but the vast bulk of my mates had a clean house with nice furniture, not so many people screaming at eachother, no infestations, better food, nice appliances, money for school excursions and all the other crap which steadily made me realize just how little we had compared to most in our society. At 16 the chance to break free and take hold of my own destiny lay at hand, and I snatched it eagerly. I moved out, I quickly found myself homeless and impoverished. I was by that stage already malnourished. But I patiently endured in the knowledge that if I worked at it I could change things.

But the state was always there. Shortly after a stint in a homeless refuge (state supported) for 6 weeks I had government assistance and completed my final year of high school on schedule with a tertiary entrance score in the top 5%. In the span of 4 years I worked on demolition sites, did tree lopping (helped rebuild my starved frame), washed cars, even made public presentations to hundreds of people as a sales rep. All this for a pittance of a wage to give me just enough to subsist and study. But throughout I received sufficient government assistance to keep me alive and build my future. I was accepted into a double degree at one of the nation's best universities on the basis of my high school score, the government is loaning me the money to pay my fees.

The point I am making at the end of this anecdote (which is probably too indepth) is that the Australian government has always looked out for its people regardless of their ethnic origins. Any person here who was in the same circumstances as myself would get the same assistance. The fact that I am fairly European look also goes to prove the point that those citicens here perceived as Anglos will end up poor just as easily as anyone else if they (or their parents) do not provide well and participate sufficiently in the labour force. Poverty in Australia is a result of the individual slipping, child poverty is the result of the parent not doing enough to provide.

 Yes, the suburbs in West Sydney are poorer than most and alot of newly arrived migrants live there. But do not anyone think they are slums for a moment, that is simply a lie. Anyone with a stable family and food on the table during adolescence received a far better deal than I did, they all have access to a nurturing state welfare system that can pride itself on giving everyone the opportunity to an excellant education. Even if you don't want to go to university, drop out at 16 and take up a trade; tradesmen here are paid pretty well (usually not less than 50 grand per year). The government will help fund that as well.

The problem in Australia is not a result of poverty. The thugs on both sides who went rampaging did so transported by their cars, texted eachother on their mobile phones, fuelled themselves up with alcohol and are not lacking in cash or opportunities if they really want to make it in this country. The problem is simply the lack of education, lack of understanding, a history of racial attacks by both sides etc. The state and economy are well geared to distribute wealth and opportunity to those willing to work for it and I applaude the state machinery which gives any newly arrived migrant or poor Australian the chance to excell and enjoy prosperity.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 06:58

It definately is tre, poverty breeds crime, though I am not fully aware of Australia's situation, here in Edinburgh, a rel;atively very rich city, the schemes are exclusively white, there is drug abuse, violent crime and robbery, though the latter two have seen a dramatic decline over the last 10 years due to better policing and improved economic conditions.

There is no excuse for racism (which is confined to the poorer areas) in this city except hate and jealousy.  There are no ethnic gangs who go around robbing, beating and abusing whites, depsite a huge increase over the last ten years in the proportion of minorities here (especially African and Chinese/East Asian).

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 06:33

In Australia the Muslim Lebanese havent been as lucky as other immigrants from their area and therefore in general terms reside in lower social-economics neighborhoods. Though I've worked with many and know of more that dont fit in this model. But it generally does apply to many of these gangs and not the rest.

The Muslims Lebanese were victims of their situation, let me explain what happened: We all came over when Anglos needed cheap labour for their factories, any poor uneducated fellow from a devasted country could get a job and work. Wogs worked very hard and saved harder. They got their kids an education and invested in this countrys future when many others at that time didnt. Muslims came in big numbers, from the mid 70's and later on, at least 10 -15 years after the others. Unfortunately at the same time those factories closed down and moved to Asia, so they didnt get that 'opportunity' to work hard and save like we did in the previous decades. Australia didnt have work for such migrants anymore and eventually only allowed educated, wealthy and highly skilled migrants in. These were mainly sourced from East Asia aswell as South Asia


So the Muslim Lebanese community on a whole has a harder time settling in and there are parts of it that is introverted and not integrated in any meaningful social way. Most of the gangs that people are talking about are mainly just cousins and relatives and nothing more. Real criminals have better things to do than hang out and give girls sh*t. These boys are generally from conservative families where they are only allowed to hang out with their own family (very big extended families). The culture these boys grew up in is very much influence by US gangsta stuff and not Islam (atleast in any positive way). If that was the case then they would be saving themselves for their wives and respecting everyone else females as if it was their own.

In saying that when these guys were just coming in the 70's, the greeks were the bad arses that eveyone hated. So i think this will all work itself out like it has for every other 'out'  group. It just may take a little longer than others due to the slow start and the situation i described above.


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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 21:29

Originally posted by Zagros

Or the fact that they're above making gangs.  American Arabs are largely educated middle class.

I would have to concur with the above statement. With such a low population anyway it seems that most arabs arent from poverty striken neighborhoods where gangs are more easily formed for various reasons. 

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 17:11
Interestingly most Anglo and East Med. Aussies are educated and middle class also, unfortunately there are always idiots who get into the gang culture just to be part of that scene.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 09:11
Or the fact that they're above making gangs.  American Arabs are largely educated middle class.
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 08:08
I have a question for my fellow Americans: Is there any "Arab" gangs in your city? I live in the Southwest where there is a very low arab population so I havent heard of any type of arab gangs in my part of the country, just wondering if you guys have heard or seen any. I cant imagine an arab gang in the US. In the US we have a very stereotypical view of ethnic gangs. The hispanic gangs look a certain way, the black gangs look a certain way...........and so on. Its hard for me to picture what an arab gang would look like. I personally dont think arabs would start a group with a hostile position here in the states just for the simple fact that I believe theyre smart enough to know that they probably would receive very harsh treatment from americans due to their arab ethnicity due to the 9/11 atacks.

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 04:09
"The problem with that logic is that it doesn't justify arab gangs violating beach rules, kicking balls at lifeguards, cursing at lifeguards, or even beating up lifeguards. "

My logic is that arab and anglo saxons are both australians, one group cannot exclusively use and define the title of "australian", which is the implied case over here. Following that logic also,  both sides should be protected from racial voilence (or any voilence) from any other australian.

Gangs of "middle eastern" apearance are a problem for the police who I mite add dont deal with people of "middle eastern" apearnce lightly anyway, have a look at some our prisons.

"Remember, race is not an excuse for behaving like animals, especially in a country dominated by another race."
i agree race is no excuse to behave like animals, even if they are the 'dominate' race. In fact you can do alot more hurt when the 'dominant' group acts out, just as a rule of numbers

" especially in a country dominated by another race."
Be careful in thinking this is a very anglo country, on the surface yes, but really on the ground it would be hard to see;

Australia snap shot: 1/4 or so of australians are foriegn born and when you account for first, second aussie born including the mixed generations (which can look like or are considered wogs or asians) ,then you have a very large, powerful and important minority that you cannot simply bash on sight. Definataly not in sydney no matter how anglo your suburb is, or in melbourne.

"And these "lebs" were not bashed simply because they were lebs; they were bashed because they, as "lebs," misbehaved and misrepresented the whole community. "
Well actually they were bashed for that reason alone, no one 'gang' member was hurt, just people that were or looked like lebs. People excused some of this on alchohol but they werent drunk when they wrote racist slogans on t shirts, signs or their bodies.

Lebs werent the only ones bashed, an anglo cant tell the difference hence why my prevoius point makes the whole bashing on how one looks so dangerous. Ive had other greeks say that i look leb for instance, so i cant imagine a anglo knowing any better.

Talk back radio was critisized for its role, here is a  bad example of what was said by the announcer ( December 16, 2005) LINK

" And again, I don't think Australians are inherently racist by nature."
"THREE out of every four voters disagree with the Prime Minister's claim there is no underlying racism in Australia."LINK


Like i said before this country is on a whole fine, no one holds us back, but sections in this country are way behind and still think fondly of the good old days of white australia, it was those people your saw on TV not just locals. For example the majority in the same poll support multiculturalism
Link to the Charts

Arrests have been made in the last 2 day's (over 160 from both sides) and thankfully the police are dealing with this fairly.
For example: SMH link to white supremacist crackdown

BTW many anglo's arrested were not just locals.

This had little to do with the bashed lifesavers in the end and these people do not like anyone that is a migrant and are just picking on the most unpopular 'out' group, lebs as an excuse for racist behavoiur.



Edited by Leonidas
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  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 20:38
Originally posted by Zagros

what a bunch of fu**ing animals.


pretty much, yeah. Some disturbing pictures.
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 08:39

Wow you must be a white boy in that crowd.

You: I think that Tookie should be charged innocent because he wrote books about how bad gang activities are.

Me: I disagree.  He killed 4 people.

You: Wow you must be a nazi just like Arnie.

Nice logical fallacy you have right there.  

 NEWSFLASH: We all built australia, i wont have someone that doesnt know much about non-anglo history in australia make such comments without a little perspective. My grandfather dug trenches in the desert, for our water utility out in Broken Hill (the outback) to raise his family. My father had to basically get first in the state in order to have a scholership to get a education in college infact he was the first to get two. Every wog will tell you similar stories of hard work and no thanks to anyone else, so we feel we have all contibuted just as much as any "aussie". Anglo's built the political structre, its stable and it works well, i regard them as effective managers like that, but our countries success is also about what everyone else has done within that structure.

The people bashed over skin colour, were born here and not all were lebs nor should that make a difference. If that is what you think is ok then you dont know what problems that will bring to this country that seems to be very good operating with many types of people.

Calm down.  You are right about the "we all built it" part.

The problem with that logic is that it doesn't justify arab gangs violating beach rules, kicking balls at lifeguards, cursing at lifeguards, or even beating up lifeguards.  And again, I don't think Australians are inherently racist by nature.  I believe that Arabs were guilty enough to have "mass" riots occur throughout Cronulla.  Remember, race is not an excuse for behaving like animals, especially in a country dominated by another race.  And these "lebs" were not bashed simply because they were lebs; they were bashed because they, as "lebs," misbehaved and misrepresented the whole community.  That was my point. 

Or did these Aussies riot because they wanted to get rid of "Aboriginals"?

Grrr..
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 05:42

Originally posted by Leonidas

demon wote:
"Keep in mind that the whites built Australia- it's their homeland.  They belong there.  And once you enter their place, you act like them, not separately like a faction.  The arabs merely "immigrated" to that place.  They should have acted responsably insteand of letting disorder run across and have the Aussies hate them.  They had it coming, so I wouldn't specifically blame the whites for this."
Wow you must be a white boy in that crowd. NEWSFLASH: We all built australia, i wont have someone that doesnt know much about non-anglo history in australia make such comments without a little perspective. My grandfather dug trenches in the desert, for our water utility out in Broken Hill (the outback) to raise his family. My father had to basically get first in the state in order to have a scholership to get a education in college infact he was the first to get two. Every wog will tell you similar stories of hard work and no thanks to anyone else, so we feel we have all contibuted just as much as any "aussie". Anglo's built the political structre, its stable and it works well, i regard them as effective managers like that, but our countries success is also about what everyone else has done within that structure.

The people bashed over skin colour, were born here and not all were lebs nor should that make a difference. If that is what you think is ok then you dont know what problems that will bring to this country that seems to be very good operating with many types of people.

I also heard Croatians were attacked.



Edited by Zagros
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 21:34
Originally posted by arch.buff

Ok, first off how do you know that tourists are disrespectful in australia, and saying that ALL tourists are disrespectful is a generalization that you cant make. To me it seems the Arabs did do their part in starting it and were responsible for some destruction, werent they the ones breaking windows and fighting wit the cops, at least to my knowledge. There is no reason for a racial fight on this scale and both sides hold responsibility. The Arabs werent neccesarily the victims here.


He is right and it was not just life guards and they have been burning churches. Although I feel bad for the innocent Arabs caught in the middle.
I know from the stories of my Greek side that they also faced abuse from the Anglo establishment but that is rare today with Greeks in the U.S.
www.jihadwatch.org has been following this story since it started.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 20:42
demon wote:
"Keep in mind that the whites built Australia- it's their homeland.  They belong there.  And once you enter their place, you act like them, not separately like a faction.  The arabs merely "immigrated" to that place.  They should have acted responsably insteand of letting disorder run across and have the Aussies hate them.  They had it coming, so I wouldn't specifically blame the whites for this."
Wow you must be a white boy in that crowd. NEWSFLASH: We all built australia, i wont have someone that doesnt know much about non-anglo history in australia make such comments without a little perspective. My grandfather dug trenches in the desert, for our water utility out in Broken Hill (the outback) to raise his family. My father had to basically get first in the state in order to have a scholership to get a education in college infact he was the first to get two. Every wog will tell you similar stories of hard work and no thanks to anyone else, so we feel we have all contibuted just as much as any "aussie". Anglo's built the political structre, its stable and it works well, i regard them as effective managers like that, but our countries success is also about what everyone else has done within that structure.

The people bashed over skin colour, were born here and not all were lebs nor should that make a difference. If that is what you think is ok then you dont know what problems that will bring to this country that seems to be very good operating with many types of people.
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 07:17

These "Whites" were Nazis that came from far and wide, it was organised violence against any random person who looked like they were Middle Eastern, Greek, Italian etc.  Two Arab thugs threatening lifeguards does not justify savage racist attacks.

It's not just the two lifeguard incident that incenerated this event.  It's the escalating tension between the aussies and the arabs that should be blamed.  I don't know how hostile the Arabs were to the locals, but I guess they aren't innocent- or else the support for this lynching wouldn't have been that widespread.   

British tourists are very disrespectful and threatening to locals when they are on holiday in the med.  I take it you think it is acceptable for a mass of locals to take the law into their own hands and hunt down anyone who looks to be British?

The locals in med can and should, but med is a tourist resort - if you mess with the client, you are out of money.  Australia isn't a gambling spot to earn money and run away once you made yourself rich.  It's designed to live there and integrate into that society.  Yet I suppose the arabs didn't do a great job in this.

Actually all of them including the anglos are immigrants

But the anglos were the first to establish a big colony there, the first to build cities there, the first to design Australia in the first place.  That makes them the local and the later Arabs the immigrant.

Those barbaric animals shown in the pics did not distinguish, they class all of the above mentioned as wogs and attacked anyone with a wog appearance, including a muslim girl who happened to be wearing a headscarf. 

If you think anything justifies the lynching of innocents because of their appearance, any of you, then your true colours have been shown.

But if they act irresponsably within a country, I wouldn't have much mercy on them.  That "they" includes mostly innocent people, but i think the lyinching is justifiable.  How can one imimgrate to a foreign country and act atriciously?  Even if one consider himself/herself 'innocent,' why did nothing happen when some idiots from the same ethnic commited crimes?  Why did the 'innocents' allow tension to escalate without check?  Skin color, ethnic background, gender, sexual orientation, and beliefs have NOTHING to do with this.  Just because you are an arab, it doesn't mean that you can go ahead smash windows, form gangs, knife locals, rape locals, and have innocent charges just because you are arabs.   Anyone can behave themselves especially in a foreign place unless they are mentally challenged.  The arabs could have, most certainly. 

Keep in mind that the whites built Australia- it's their homeland.  They belong there.  And once you enter their place, you act like them, not separately like a faction.  The arabs merely "immigrated" to that place.  They should have acted responsably insteand of letting disorder run across and have the Aussies hate them.  They had it coming, so I wouldn't specifically blame the whites for this.

 

Grrr..
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 03:11
Zagros wrote:
"Those barbaric animals shown in the pics did not distinguish, they class all of the above mentioned as wogs and attacked anyone with a wog appearance, including a muslim girl who happened to be wearing a headscarf. 

If you think anything justifies the lynching of innocents because of their appearance, any of you, then your true colours have been shown."


Well said, and may i add that suburb has had a repudation for being racist for a long time, while many others where rings ins from out west (penrith).

There are no 'good' guys in the voilence but it affects alot of innocents.


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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 03:01
Loknar wrote:
"yet we are the ones who are shunned in the Muslim world for some reason"
Thats more to do with your foreign policy not your immigration policy. Why would a muslim in Iraq or jordan care what you do with your minorities? You have other policies that they percieve as hypocritical and just out right aggresive in the M/E, where they live and a whole lot more relevant.

Nice try but two different things

"Yet, in places like France and Australia, where they are rioting because they live in slums or they are beaten on the streets, America still gets the bad end of the stick."
France and Australia a completely different and if you actually took the time to read the post by either me or the other aussies here you would of known that.

1 Most immigrants are successful here, sometimes more so than anglo's. any failure is not just about racism

2 We have a policy that accepts and respects multiculturalism.
 eg. I can go and recieve my benifits and visit governmet buildings read their brochures and its all in greek, or turkish, arabic, chinese, etc etc.

3 Racism is felt on a personal level not in an official way, with the media somewhere inbetween. Its not like when my parents came over.

"they live in slums or they are beaten on the streets"
Have you seen an muslim "slum" in australia? There are poor areas but maybe by our standards not yours.

What we do have is aboriginal slums and, shock horror, there are also large poor suburbs with just white people.

Poverty does not discriminate
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 23:18
I apologize because I didnt realize you said MED. But the fact of the matter is that you cant generalize tourists like that, I have been a tourist in a different country and I hope I dont get stereotyped the way you have done. But I also agree with you about condemning EVERYONE that wasnt an innocent by standard that was actually participating in this atrocity. Thats what I was trying to get across because I read a couple of posts that seemed like people were reffering to the Arabs as just innocent by standard.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 21:38

What are you talking about? I said British Tourists in the MED, just have a  look at the scum who go to Ibiza and Ionapa and tell me what I said isn't so: they get drunk and piss everywhere, harass women, a minority of louts assault and rape. I have seen it first hand so that's how I know. Not all of them are like that but a great number are. So I put it to you: is it acceptable for locals to form lynch mobs and hunt down and beat Brist including innocent ones?

The Arabs weren't the only victims and they weren't the only culprits either, individual thugs were, not innocent by standers who got attacked because of their appearance, be they white or med.  And If you had read this thread a little and put aside your ostensible prejudice you may  have seen that I already condemned arab/italian/greek gangs too.

Those barbaric animals shown in the pics did not distinguish, they class all of the above mentioned as wogs and attacked anyone with a wog appearance, including a muslim girl who happened to be wearing a headscarf. 

If you think anything justifies the lynching of innocents because of their appearance, any of you, then your true colours have been shown.

 



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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 21:06
Ok, first off how do you know that tourists are disrespectful in australia, and saying that ALL tourists are disrespectful is a generalization that you cant make. To me it seems the Arabs did do their part in starting it and were responsible for some destruction, werent they the ones breaking windows and fighting wit the cops, at least to my knowledge. There is no reason for a racial fight on this scale and both sides hold responsibility. The Arabs werent neccesarily the victims here.

Edited by arch.buff
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