Our founding fathers were Christians?

Hello all, i havent really been keepin up on this thread but I found this quote from big Ben that seemed related to the issue at hand:

All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?"

i am scoring at home, and i gave my points to Laelius.

The history of the colonization Massachusetts doesn't do anything to refute what Laelius said, which is that this religious theocracy of early Massachusetts had little to no influence on the actual Founding Fathers and Constitution-framers.

it is pretty funny, though, that if you examine the first two major settlements in the US (Massachusetts and Virginia), you have two of the major components of modern America...religious extremism and material gain

Yes of course as it was the Massachusetts Bay Colony's obscene Theocratic Tyranny which proved the necessity of removing religous elements from the federal government.  Oh and the legal foundations of the United States is British Common Law, not the lunatic rantings of some fringe Christian group of fanatics.

Back on topic

John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were well know deists. James Madison was a unitarian, and "In god we trust" has only been on American coinage off and on since 1864 when it first appeared. Interestingly enough, Theodore Roosevelt ordered the motto removed from new coins produced during his tenure as President, with the opinion that placing God's name on coinage was sacrilege. He was overruled by Congress however.

"But I agree that I have a responsibility, as far as I can, to make up for God's failings."

-I guess we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on this issue.

How you can write 'in fact' I have no idea. There are no 'facts' involved here.

And God created everything so he's responsible for the whole shebang. Including the devil.

He can't get out of it that easily.

That's the mistake right there. He created us wrong.

Yep. But you started it as I recall, saying it was all our fault.

It's arguable, but immaterial. God determined what we would do. (Or, if he didn't he could have done - a sin of omission if not commission.)

I take the responsibility for my own actions. It's God who's trying to wriggle out of his - or, to be fair, you who are trying to excuse him or the wrongs he commits. (For all i know, God himself is quite ready to take the blame - you're hardly his spokesman.)

Again, you have it right there. He gave us the choice. He created the choice. If the choice was between good and evil, he created both of them.

That's his fault.

But I agree that I have a responsibility, as far as I can, to make up for God's failings.

See that is exactly what I'm talking about. A few hundred years ago you couldn't get away with that in Christianity, you were going to hell because of any sin that was considered very bad like pre-marriage sex.

Evangelicals are worse, you could kill someone, but as long as you believe in God your going to heaven. If I remember right you don't even have to say your sorry. But if you never had done anything wrong and help a thousand people who needed your help and you don't recognize god then your going to hell, seems kind of screwed up.

Another thing that has changed in Christianity is if you killed anyone for whatever reason you were going to hell. But today a person believes he can join the military and kill someone and not goto hell because he was fighting for his country. See how people change religion to conveniantly fit their own wants?

Sometimes I always wondered if there is a god, why would he even want to be known, I mean he doesn't even do anything to show he exists. So maybe he or even them would want us to live life for what it is. Then I wonder if their is a supreme evil, maybe it controls or wants people to join organized religions. The reason I came to that is because oraganized religion seperates people, it's easy for someone to become powerful using it, it can be used to easilly persecute a certain people, and has caused wars and thousands to die in the name of a said religion. Also it's only the religious I hear that have ever been effected by a evil spirit, or atleast someone who says they believe in God.

Like I said though it would make life easier to believe I have some where to go after death or that someone is watching over me, but I can't put myself to it. I used to be a believer, but when things don't make sense, or that so many things have changed over time it just seems to fake.

Here pit this in google and click search- bible says the world started 6000 years ago

You will have pages upon pages to look through, but you will get the idea.

Well there is one way to argue against Noah and his ark. It had to be built around 2050, yet while boats were made their the biggest bot we have at that time was 143 feet, by 20 feet wide. The technology to hold so many animals and to make a ship that large did not exist yet. And this is a time when major break throughs were happening for boats.

Also if he carried two of every animal, did he let a few off in Australia and the America's where they weren't found in other parts of the world? You tell me not to give any example's of Greek and Roman relgious stories before, yet alot of the bible has it's own myth's and stories that are impossible for humans.

We were talking about common sense, not science. Common sense says if something is dead it isn't coming back. Common sense says if I put my hand in a fire I'm going to be hurting.

They except is as myth now because our ancestors were forced to. Honestly I wish I could believe in a religion, it makes death alot easier and it gives sense of security in that you know someone is watching over you. I have searched for another religion, one that I could agree with and it doesn't work for me. I can't believe in anything that sounds too mythological. I mean even in Christianity the Saints also have their own magic that you can prey to them to help you. Someone even posted picutres on these forums of two Saints that had animal heads, just like the Egyptian gods.

Christianity isn't taken serious anymore by people. Like I said earlier people now eat meat on fridays, people often will skip church on sundays, people have sex before marriage, it used to be if you did these things you were on a one way trip to hell. Now people convenantly changed the religion to their own needs and still ask for help from God and the saints, so whose servering who?