greece has more R-red(West European) genes than turkey, but same greece also is the most afrotic(E-green) nation in Europe and have significant middle east-north african j genes
Major groups in Europe
Turkey is mostly J2 but it is normaly less then quarter percent
J2=24%
-Typical of populations of the Near East, Southeast Europe,
Southwest Asia and the Caucasus
R1b=14.7% -Typical of Western Europeans and Eurasian People
G=10.9% - Typical of people from the Caucasus and to a lesser extent the Middle East.
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/HG_2004_v114_p127-148. pdf
Found The link to the "Excavating
Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia" Published online 29 Oct 2003
This to me seems to be the most up
to date and detailed one so far. It divides Turkey into regions which would be great
to drill down to the detail of the genetic impacts of migrations to/from Anadolia
as I would think most migrations never affected the whole area evenly. The finding
are good reading, and in its conclusion addresses some of the other earlier
studies including "DNA
diversity and population admixture in Anatolia", and it
has similar doubts that Maju brought up.Bravo Maju unless you have read this
already
"Minor
genetic influence of Turkic speakers various estimates exist of the proportion
of gene flow associated with the arrival of Central Asian Turkic speaking people
to Anatolia. One study based on analyses of six STR loci in 88 Y-chromosomes
from Turkey suggested only a 10% contribution (Rolf et al. 1999). Another study
suggests roughly 30% based upon mtDNA control region sequences and one binary
and six STR Y-chromosome loci analyzed in 118 Turkish samples (Di Benedetto et
al. 2001). While it is likely that gene flow between Central Asia and Anatolia
has occurred repeatedly throughout prehistory, uncertainties regarding source
populations and the number of such episodes between Central Asia and Europe
confound any assessment of the contribution of the 11th century AD Oghuz nomads
responsible for the Turkic language replacement. These new Y-chromosome data
provide candidate haplogroups to differentiate lineages specific to the
postulated source populations, thus overcoming potential artifacts caused by
indistinguishable overlapping gene flows. The best candidates for estimations are
Asian-specific haplogroups C-RPS4Y (Wells et al. 2001; Karafet et al. 2001;
Zerjal et al. 2003) and O3-M122 (Su et al. 2000). These lineages occur at 1.5%
in Turkey (8/523). Using Central Asian Y-chromosome data from either 13
populations and 149 samples (Underhill et al. 2000) or 49 populations and 1,935
samples (Wells et al. 2001) where these diagnostic lineages occur at 33% and
18%, respectively, their estimated contributions range from 0.0153/0.329 100=4.6%
to 0.0153/0.180100=8.5%. During the Bronze Age the population of Anatolia
expanded, reaching an estimated level of 12 million during the late Roman
Period (Russell 1958). Such a large pre-existing Anatolian population would
have reduced the impact by the subsequent arrival of Turkic speaking Seljuk and
Osmanlı groups from Central Asia. Although the genetic legacy of Anatolia
remains somewhat inchoate, our excavations of these new levels of shared
Y-chromosome heritage and subsequent diversification provide new clues to Anatolian
prehistory, as well as a substantial foundation for comparisons with other
populations. Our results demonstrate Anatolias role as a buffer between
culturally and genetically distinct populations, being both an important source
and recipient of gene flow."Pg 9
As you can see there still needs more
work, but the picture is getting clearer. The Scientist are comfortable
with the 12 million estimates becuase they keep seeing it their
results ....while the "it was empty when we got there" story should of consistantly showed up in all of these studies by now.
That sounds quite logic: overall Turkey's population is clearly
Caucasian while Central Asian population is rather Mongoloid (North
Asian), though more mixed than other groups. Not that Caucasians and
North Asians are too distant in the family tree of Humankind but
anyhow.
Arfunda, I found a PDF version of "Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia" & "DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia."
are on the web, i think I know which website ur on and its tight
in giving it out for freebees. Your best bet is the stanford uni sight,
or just google the titles.
The 30% figure is highest ive come across, but it is from the paternal
side which is different to all the others which focus on the maternal. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v63n6/9 70820/970820.web.pdf?erFrom=3995852542252316629Guest Link "Trading Genes along the Silk Road: mtDNA Sequences and the Origin of Central Asian Populations" 1998 (tell me if this works)
This
kinda ties it back to Central Asia, and has some interesting graphs (pg
6/7) on where Anadolian Turks (on their motherside) are placed
with other Altaic/Turkic people.
"The four central Asian populations presented the shortest genetic
distances among themselves, and Mongolians are the population
genetically closest to these central Asian groups. If African
populations are added to the analysis, they present large genetic
distances to all other populations. It is interesting to note that
Turks present shorter genetic distances to the British than to central
Asians, even though the central Asian populations samples in the
present study speak Turkic languages. A neighbor-joining tree was built
as described in theMaterial andMethods section, with the genetic
distances estimated on the basis of the mismatch-intermatch distance.
The robustness of the tree was assessed bymeans of 1,000 bootstrap
replicates (Efron 1982; Felsenstein 1985), a consensus tree was built,
and bootstrap supports 150% have been represented on its nodes (fig.
2). It is evident that central Asian populations occupy a position
intermediate between the eastern Asian (Chinese, Korean, and Ainu) and
the Western (Middle Eastern, British, and Turk) populations. Not
surprisingly, the most robust nodes are those that cluster together the
eastern Asian populations on one end and the Western populations on the
other end. No robust branches subdivided the central Asian
populations." pg6
Well strangly enough ive saw a Turkish guy called "Tarhun", he whas also from orum (a province in Turkey). Isnt Tarhun a hitite king? I did ask how it comes he got that name and he told me its the name of his grandfather.
It's not the name of a Hittite king, but it does look very Luwian. A Luwian king of Arzawa was named Tarhundaradu at the time of the Hittite king Suppiluliumas I and the Egyptian king Amenophis III whom the Arzawan king corresponded with. His name has the element Tarhund- which answers to the name of the Luwian god Tarhundas (or Tarhunt), the Weather-god. The name is from the word tarh- which meant, "to conquer".
The contribution of Central Asian genes to the current Anatolian gene
pool was quantified using three different methods, considering for
comparison populations of Mediterranean Europe, and Turkic-speaking
populations of Central Asia. The most reliable estimates suggest
roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and
Y-chromosome loci. That (admittedly approximate) figure is compatible
both with a substantial immigration accompanying the arrival of the
Turkmen armies (which is not historically documented), and with
continuous gene flow from Asia into Anatolia, at a rate of 1% for 40
generations. Because a military invasion is expected to more deeply
affect the male gene pool, similar estimates of admixture for female-
and male-transmitted traits are easier to reconcile with continuous
migratory contacts between Anatolia and its Asian neighbors, perhaps
facilitated by the disappearance of a linguistic barrier between them.
The author shouldn't forget that there is a strong chance that IEs
(like Hittites and Luwians) came originally also from that Central
Asian region that now speaks Turk languages. I don't think this is
considered in the study bt shouldn't be ignored.
Anyhow, it's clear that such a central region as Asia Minor, and in
general the Near East and the Balcans, have always been exposed to
population flows in and out. No one should expect to find any "pure"
isolated population like the ones that are sometimes found in marginal
not frequented areas.
Well strangly enough ive saw a Turkish guy called "Tarhun", he whas also from orum (a province in Turkey). Isnt Tarhun a hitite king? I did ask how it comes he got that name and he told me its the name of his grandfather.
The most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci.
Maybe. But we are sure it wasnt just the men and armies arriving to Anatolia. It wasnt just a conquest. It was a new homeland for the Turkmen, with massive immigrations from pre-Seljuk period (Oguz, Pchenek, Kipchak in 9th-10th centuries) to the vawes after Mongolians and Timur.
Most of the city, town, village, river, lake names in Anotolia have Luwian origin. People here think that they are Turkish but most words aren't Turkish.
Well, Luwians also werent Greeks, they were people related with Hittites. And Hittites were spread from Eastern Anatolia to Troy, from Black Sea to Syria.
And yes, most of the region-city names in Anatolia have original Hittite/Luwian names. It is also true that their cultures are still somehow alive, synthesized in ours. Anyway, since they werent any related with Greeks (even more related with Persians and ancient middle Eastern societies), no problem with it...
Maju and Leonidas, Thank you for your interest and for your scientific participations. It's nice to read your approaches.
Maju, you say:"It also means that most of the population in Turkey (and elsewhere) is truly old, at least via mothers, and not the product of any historical or even late prehistoric migration." Yes, the prehistorical/historical documents and scientific clues make me think just like you. So I can say that we are the "Turkish speaking Anotolian natives". Have you seen Hitit men on wall pictures who are wearing high semi-coni-shaped hats? Some villagers, living in orum- -even now- wear this kind of hats. Folcloric hats and head coverages of women (on which have gold coins) in some regions of Anotolia are similar with those on the Urartian wall pictures. Most of the city, town, village, river, lake names in Anotolia have Luwian origin. People here think that they are Turkish but most words aren't Turkish. Turkish speaking people have changed teir pronouncations spoutanously in centuries in order to adapt them into Turkish language. If you search the ethimology, you see that they have Lwian origins. Even the name of some places which had been supposed to have Greek origin have Luwian origin.
Here are another searches on Y chromosomes (shoving paternal lineages). I want to share them with you. But I don't have full-text articles, they are not free online.
Best regards
Arfunda
Hum Genet. 2004 Jan;114(2):127-48. Epub 2003 Oct 29.
Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, 300 Pasteur Drive, Stanford, CA 94305-5120, USA.
Analysis of 89 biallelic polymorphisms in 523 Turkish Y chromosomes revealed 52 distinct haplotypes with considerable haplogroup substructure, as exemplified by their respective levels of accumulated diversity at ten short tandem repeat (STR) loci. The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity. The expansion times for 20 haplogroup assemblages was estimated from associated STR diversity. This comprehensive characterization of Y-chromosome heritage addresses many multifaceted aspects of Anatolian prehistory, including: (1) the most frequent haplogroup, J, splits into two sub-clades, one of which (J2) shows decreasing variances with increasing latitude, compatible with a northward expansion; (2) haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs; (3) frequency of haplogroup I, which originated in Europe, declines with increasing longitude, indicating gene flow arriving from Europe; (4) conversely, haplogroup G2 radiates towards Europe; (5) haplogroup E3b3 displays a latitudinal correlation with decreasing frequency northward; (6) haplogroup R1b3 emanates from Turkey towards Southeast Europe and Caucasia and; (7) high resolution SNP analysis provides evidence of a detectable yet weak signal (<9%) of recent paternal gene flow from Central Asia. The variety of Turkish haplotypes is witness to Turkey being both an important source and recipient of gene flow.
Ann Hum Genet. 2001 Jul;65(Pt 4):339-49.
A multistep process for the dispersal of a Y chromosomal lineage in the Mediterranean area.
Department of Biology, University Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy.
In this work we focus on a microsatellite-defined Y-chromosomal lineage (network 1.2) identified by us and reported in previous studies, whose geographic distribution and antiquity appear to be compatible with the Neolithic spread of farmers. Here, we set network 1.2 in the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic tree, date it with respect to other lineages associated with the same movements by other authors, examine its diversity by means of tri- and tetranucleotide loci and discuss the implications in reconstructing the spread of this group of chromosomes in the Mediterranean area. Our results define a tripartite phylogeny within HG 9 (Rosser et al. 2000), with the deepest branching defined by alleles T (Haplogroup Eu10) or G (Haplogroup Eu9) at M172 (Semino et al. 2000), and a subsequent branching within Eu9 defined by network 1.2. Population distributions of HG 9 and network 1.2 show that their occurrence in the surveyed area is not due to the spread of people from a single parental population but, rather, to a process punctuated by at least two phases. Our data identify the wide area of the Balkans, Aegean and Anatolia as the possible homeland harbouring the largest variation within network 1.2. The use of recently proposed tests based on the stepwise mutation model suggests that its spread was associated to a population expansion, with a high rate of male gene flow in the Turkish-Greek area.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;115(2):144-56.
DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia.
Dipartimento di Biologia, Universita di Ferrara, I-44100 Ferrara, Italy.
The Turkic language was introduced in Anatolia at the start of this millennium, by nomadic Turkmen groups from Central Asia. Whether that cultural transition also had significant population-genetics consequences is not fully understood. Three nuclear microsatellite loci, the hypervariable region I of the mitochondrial genome, six microsatellite loci of the Y chromosome, and one Alu insertion (YAP) were amplified and typed in 118 individuals from four populations of Anatolia. For each locus, the number of chromosomes considered varied between 51-200. Genetic variation was large within samples, and much less so between them. The contribution of Central Asian genes to the current Anatolian gene pool was quantified using three different methods, considering for comparison populations of Mediterranean Europe, and Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia. The most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci. That (admittedly approximate) figure is compatible both with a substantial immigration accompanying the arrival of the Turkmen armies (which is not historically documented), and with continuous gene flow from Asia into Anatolia, at a rate of 1% for 40 generations. Because a military invasion is expected to more deeply affect the male gene pool, similar estimates of admixture for female- and male-transmitted traits are easier to reconcile with continuous migratory contacts between Anatolia and its Asian neighbors, perhaps facilitated by the disappearance of a linguistic barrier between them. Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
In that case, perhaps Turkey is not the right place to seek an illegal migrant worker's wage. But from what I see, you're not unskilled at all, you can use a computer and speak a foreign language (or maybe more) so you have more skills than you think. I'm sure that you'll do much better over time!
PS
My name is Yiannis, not moderator
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
I think you're Indian or Pakistani...oh, wait! Since you don't want to change your religion, you must be Indian
It seems that many Indians are working abroad and are very good skilled engineers and high tech proffecionals. I'm sure there're plenty of positions also in Turkey, if you want to move there!
Hi there moderator,
I am an Indian n unfortunately an illegal migrant worker.Making 40 US $ a day loading ship containers.So no high tech jobs for me.
I think you're Indian or Pakistani...oh, wait! Since you don't want to change your religion, you must be Indian
It seems that many Indians are working abroad and are very good skilled engineers and high tech proffecionals. I'm sure there're plenty of positions also in Turkey, if you want to move there!
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
I don't like living in Korea.Would i be accepted as a Turk if I come to Turkey.I won't change my religion though.Willing to learn the language.I like Turkish songs a lot.Ibrahim Tatlises----Aman melegim the best.I heard he is a Kurd.
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