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eaglecap View Drop Down
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Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Crusades- Share your view
    Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 16:54
Originally posted by opuslola

Eaglecap, do you know of the bar-b-que restraunt located just N. of Tucson, where they would cut off your tie, if you wore one into the place? It was not far S. of the secret base where I studied!

Does the word "Evergreen" mean anything to you?


I have never heard of such of resturant anywhere but it would have been better to PM me that.

Evergreen is another word for conifer or it is also an State College in Olympia, Washington (state) It is a common name used even here.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 14:37
Eaglecap, do you know of the bar-b-que restraunt located just N. of Tucson, where they would cut off your tie, if you wore one into the place? It was not far S. of the secret base where I studied!

Does the word "Evergreen" mean anything to you?
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 13:06
Just to let all of you know, I have especially enjoyed the above banter!

But, since most of you already know from where I think, it might make everything a lot more simple if you would take a more "revisionist" view?

But, any more of my ideas concerning that, cannot be discussed here!

Thus, one needs to go to the "special place", where my weird ideas can be discussed!

But, maybe Velikovsky has made a lot of you wary?
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 12:06
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

R. Rogers, Latin Siege Warfare in the 12th Century. May be of interest.


Thanks- i will first see if I can get it at the library and if not I will see if Barnes and Nobles or Borders can get it, good excuse to drive into nearby Tucson, AZ

Edited by eaglecap - 13-Jul-2010 at 12:07
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 02:53
R. Rogers, Latin Siege Warfare in the 12th Century. May be of interest.
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Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 13:37
Dreamweaver
I was given the potential assignment, by a well know history magazine, to do a story about the siege of Nicea. I have chosen my secondary and primary sources and I am working on two possible thesis, one which I will use. The focus will be about the battle and the tactics and strategy used by both sides. It will not about Muslims vs. Crusaders. I will fill you in more, once the magazine approves my proposal. They wanted more details first but I am thinking possitive and they pay good- $$$$- makes me
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Posts: 132 		  Quote ConradWeiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 21:22
Originally posted by opuslola

Thanks, "Bud!" 

May I call you "Bud?"  

Avoid it like a "Miller!"  

Nice wordplay. You may certainly call me Bud! LOL Conrad, btw, was actually a Pennsylvanian diplomat (and a direct blood relation of mine) from the 18th century. No bearing on my actual name, although we do share the same initials. Wink

Originally posted by eaglecap


Well then we can agree to disagree, but if it comes to close to the truth then I can understand your dislike for it.    

Are you a Muslim? 

For a quick and informative read related to the Crusades, try Sea of Faith by Stephen O'Shea. 

I could check it out but I think I am beyond quick reads. I do have a Masters in history afterall.  It still might be good so thanks!

I'm an atheist, actually. But that's hardly relevant. The way Spencer shamelessly manipulates history towards political agendas, indulges in anti-semitic and xenophobic language, and presents a contorted vision of history that demonizes and ostracizes his subjects and distorts historical truth. Of course, it is clear that he is not seeking truth at all.

Putting aside numerous blatant mistakes, his whole approach to history is wrong. History has been modeled on a scientific pursuit since the 19th century, and Spencer seems to be doing all that he can to tear that model down.

Of course, none of this is surprising, seeing that he has no historian credentials whatsoever. He has a MA in Religious Studies. Last time I saw someone who wasn't a historian try and write history, we ended up with Cheng's Mao, a book that the top historians of Chinese history have denounced to being up to 95% incorrect. Cheng was... surprise surprise...a linguist. Apparently she presumed that since she was Chinese she had credentials enough. 

If you have a Masters in history, I am surprised that you would take people with less credentials than yourself as an authority. And before you accuse me of elitism, think about your position: Are you saying that doctors should consult the medical expertise of a lawyer? Or perhaps a general should read a book about military strategy written by a linguist?

You say "Well then we can agree to disagree", which is a pointless statement. So what? We disagree. It does nothing to solving this conflict. If you care about truth, you would understand the importance of discussing such issues. 

Oh, and O'Shea's book was written to appeal to a general audience. 

ANYWAY: More on point, for those interested in reading about the Crusades, please do not ignore the numerous Crusades whose target was in Europe. The Albigensian Crusade being one of the more important ones.

Edited by ConradWeiser - 10-Jul-2010 at 21:25
Another year! Another deadly blow!
Another mighty empire overthrown!
And we are left, or shall be left, alone.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 17:14
Actually, in my not too humble opinion, even a close examination of Salian Law should place some believers in a Roman State into a state of agitation! Just look at the probitions concerning Romans V. others!

Salic, in general, probably means "salt?" Or aspirin?

Or maybe "from the Sea?"

Or do you regard the name as referring to "quartz and the feldspars?"

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 07-Jul-2010 at 17:18
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 05:25
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

I am really rethinking so called accepted history (i.e. The Rise of the Sallian franks, who the Bavarians really were, and was there really a cont Celtic civ outside of Gaul, or does the sheer hatred of Germany after ww2 cause "Historians" to re-label German tribes as Celts for simply PC purposes or were there really no difference in the tribes-Or were the Gaul and Italics related, but I digress)

 




Try telling that to the Celtic Fringe of Europe, if it didnt occurr in certain sections of the British Islesits not Celtic, a rather common place attitude.
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Posts: 85 		  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 04:35

I am really rethinking so called accepted history (i.e. The Rise of the Sallian franks, who the Bavarians really were, and was there really a cont Celtic civ outside of Gaul, or does the sheer hatred of Germany after ww2 cause "Historians" to re-label German tribes as Celts for simply PC purposes or were there really no difference in the tribes-Or were the Gaul and Italics related, but I digress)

 

On to the Crusades, so much of it was rewritten depending on what side you were on, it is hard to really determine a right or wrong side, so in the spirit of real politick  neither was right or wrong and both sides served their cultural or national interests.

 

The Muslims did invade the Holy Land, they did subjugate the Christians, they were the original aggressor. That is a fact.

 

The Crusaders were cruel and oppressive also, and had little regard for non Christians, but based on the culture of the time, it was the norm.

 

The Crusaders hastened the fall of the B Empire, would have the sick man held on, maybe a hundred years more? Maybe, but the Turks would have eventually won and subjugated the B's.

 

The Crusades in my opinion didn't end until the battle of Vienna in the mid 17th cent. They started the perpetual conflict between Islam and Christianity. However one could argue that the Crusades started with the Moor invasion of Spain and France. So it is pretty clear that Islam was like a locust seeking to consume Europe and Christians. Were the Crusaders cruel -yes- Were some the leaders mindless zealots, yes-- however you have to put it  into the context that Islam was threatening to consume Christianity at the time, and came very close. The Crusades were an outreach of a culture trying to survive.
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2010 at 05:23
You would be surprised actually by the Muslim response.

Muslim source for the period do regularly mention the activities off the Crusaders, particularly the first for the obvious reasons of its success and the sudden appearance of the Franks. Yet later sources, concerning later crusades dont really have as much to say. Muslim sources continue to mention the Franks, when there is something worthy of mentioning, that is they do something worthy of mention (like attack Egypt) but in all the intervening periods of time, the Franks get little Mention.


A sort of 'oh look what the barbarians are up to now' attitude I suppose. Muslim sources are much more concerned with Muslim affairs and muslim acitivities and the Franks get the most mention when these activities cross. They simply dont seem to care too much about what the Franks are up to.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2010 at 14:22
D W, methinks you have a great future in writing history textbooks!

Methinks also, that other accounts of these crusades were also written by the victorious Egyptians? Why would we expect them to ignore such a series of events that took place upon their very borders?
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2010 at 12:52
Well for the First Crusade its easy to explain, the actual success of the campaign merited alot of attention. The stupendous, neigh miraculous success of the First Crusade made it worhty of writing about, so fantastic was its outcome. Likewise the Third Crusade attracts alot of attention (relatively unsuccessful though it was). Crusades that failed or had litte occurrance like the German Crusade 1197 are much weaker on the sources.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 17:19
Yes, the use of the name or designation "Amery" does cloud the issue of a period of time, very close to us, by the way, that is, as DW, (steve>) wrote; "The problem with Crusading sources is that they tend to be rather clumpy. Groupin atoiund particular events and specific crusade campaigns. The First Crusade accounts for roughly all 1/3 of crusading sources."

Funny, is it not, that the closer we get to the present, then the less sources we seem to find for our queries?   Thus the words above; "The First Crusade accounts for roughly all 1/3 of crusading sources."

Just how can we explain the great detail available to us today for sources over one thousand or two thousand years before our times, than exists for sources and events that are later?

It seems that certain areas are reported to have "dark ages" and other periods of the past do not?

Yet, we are consistantily told that these "dark ages" did not exist!

This creates a feeling of a juxtaposition of events that produce more questions than available answers!

Just how do most all of you manage to live with it?

For example, just what events in American history have the most sources? Those from the "revolutionary war?" or those from WW II?

However, when it comes to the ancient past, that is before Christ, then the opposite occurs!

A lot of the famous people of these times, are literally covered in enbroided fabric! That is they are covered with "detail!"

Yet, with later also famous personages, we are sometimes left with not "fabric" or "body", but with "camouflage!" and diversions!

Regards,





Edited by opuslola - 02-Jul-2010 at 18:14
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Posts: 555 		  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 13:13
Anatomy of a Crusade by Powell, only the real and best book on the 5th Crusade.

Janet Shirley has done a translation of the Rothelin Continuation for the 7th Crusade, Crusader Syria in the 13th Century available from Ashgate.

Other general histories of course devote particular sections to the 5th and 7th Crusades.

The problem with Crusading sources is that they tend to be rather clumpy. Groupin atoiund particular events and specific crusade campaigns. The First Crusade accounts for roughly all 1/3 of crusading sources.
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Posts: 27 		  Quote historynut91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 08:44
 googled the hell out of the name Amery but couldent find anything but i did come across this book
 
the seventh crusade 1244-1254 by peter jackson 


Edited by historynut91 - 02-Jul-2010 at 08:47
"war is delightful to those who have no experience of it"-Erasmus
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Posts: 2 		  Quote Mediaevelist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 00:46

You can get a long way without Latin, but at a certain point it's always handy to know the basics. I did my thesis on the Fourth Crusade and the aftermath (a biography of Philip of Courtenay, son of the last Latin Emperor, Baldwin II) and luckily, most was translated, but when you get to the more "obscure" sources, they're almost never translated...

I did a crash course of Latin at the university here in Belgium, which helped me a lot... I even thought about Greek (for the Byzantine sources), but I was lucky, they were all translated (in English, French or German).
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2010 at 16:56
I am not surprised! It seems that in some areas, there exists less historical evidence available to us, the closer in time the events in question occured!

For example, just look up Plato, and then his later days images as Plethonius, Pletho or Plethon, etc., you know the so called "Neo-Platonists!"

Why I am surprised we do not know Plato's waist and shoe size!
As well as the name of his first girl-friend!

It seems we certainly know much more about him than his later namesakes! Even though hundreds or thousands of years seperate them!

It seems that this is just what the historians claim you "have to get used to!"

Well, I have never gotten used to it!

By the way, just what do you know about Amery?

But, perhaps the above question is too hard for you to answer?

But it is a good clue, if you search hard enough?

If you have no guesses, (or if you do!) then respond here and I shall lead you to him, or better explain his strange connections!

Edited by opuslola - 01-Jul-2010 at 17:14
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posts: 27 		  Quote historynut91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2010 at 16:42
is there any books on the fifth and seventh crusade as i couldn't find anything on amazon
"war is delightful to those who have no experience of it"-Erasmus
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2010 at 14:14
I read some reviews of O'Shea's book and they make it look very interesting!
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