Brits/Beijing Closing Ceremony???

Originally posted by babyblue [QUOTE=Temujin]     Absurd! To say that China's economic change is possible because of the West is like saying the Chinese civilisation is started by Europeans because a Xinjiang Mummy is found to be having red hair and long nose, or hypothesising about Chinggiz Khaan having blue eyes and Caucasian features. Every civilisation on earth must've started with a White man as nobody else is smart enough to. Eurocentrism.    I wouldn't credit China's economic reforms to anyone else but the Chinese people. And it does all comes down to one man-Deng Xiaoping.     As to mass producing 30-40 year old cars for the local population, do you not think that's better than not having cars at all? As was the case 30 years ago?    And if you think all they drive is old Volkswagen's, it's time to go back to have another look.

Originally posted by Temujin but thats deceiving, the economic change was not brought about by the Chinese but by the so much hated West. Deng Xiaoping only changed the conditions under which foreign investors would build up their own industry in China. when i was in Shanghai every second car (no exaggeration) was a Volkswagen Santana, a car which i've been told was built in Germany in the 70s. and Shanghai is arguably Chinas prestige object when it comes to economic rise, but mass-producing 30-40 year old cars for the local market is not advanced nor "economic boom".

    Absurd! To say that China's economic change is possible because of the West is like saying the Chinese civilisation is started by Europeans because a Xinjiang Mummy is found to be having red hair and long nose, or hypothesising about Chinggiz Khaan having blue eyes and Caucasian features. Every civilisation on earth must've started with a White man as nobody else is smart enough to. Eurocentrism.
   I wouldn't credit China's economic reforms to anyone else but the Chinese people.
And it does all comes down to one man-Deng Xiaoping.

    As to mass producing 30-40 year old cars for the local population, do you not think that's better than not having cars at all? As was the case 30 years ago?
   And if you think all they drive is old Volkswagen's, it's time to go back to have another look.

what i describe now is from personal experience before anyone starts crying or asking for sources.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim From everything I have heard & read, Germany treats its minorities like crap.

which minorities? like Germans for example in Stuttgart as Germans are ~1/3 of the popualtion? i am not so well treated by my government but none of my foreign co-workers ever complained as they are well received by the government (if they get accepted). at the company i work at we have workers from 26 different countries, since recently even from the Netherlands and England.

Foriegners are not really welcome. In China it is the opposite. I would much rather live in a place that respects my values, and has an authoritarian government, than a place that uses its concept of human rights to crush the morale of as many people as it can.

back in the day when i studied Chinese language in Konstanz i was 4 weeks in Shanghai were i also met with one of the former Chinese members here at AE. i mostly met Chinese people in the streets who were pretty much uncomfortable with my presence, once when we entered a shop we were outright insulted as they didn't knew we knew the language. my friend there also told me he hardly amde freidns there as he was actually living in another country and was only studying in Shanghai, were he was born though. nevertheless he was ethnically Chinese, he was shunned by other Chinese as he told be because in their eyes he was not a true Chinese. so much for "foreigners beign welcome". i have to mention though that i also had some friendly contacts, particularly with people which i made business with, but the general tendency was more hostile than friendly.

The German government should repeal its anti-terror laws and give citizenship to people who's parents and themselves were born in Germany before it has any right to attack other countries human rights.

it does.

Obviously you have never been to China. China is safe. You don't see an worrying or unnecessary amount of soliders or police. You can walk the streets without fear or favour - unless you fear seeing the belly of a beijing man

i can confirm this from personal experience. however recently one of my co-workers was on a business trip to China and on his return he told that he was visiting a new company in a rural area alone. upon their return to the hotel their native contact was shocked that they visited the area alone as it was usnafe and he mentioned that another German businessman was killed and robbed by the people of that village just the other month. that is 100% not gona happen in Germany.

I'll say it again. The Chinese Communist party has done a damn good job, and I would much rather live there than Germany.

the skies of Chinas cities are havily polluted, including Shanghai, i certainly would not wanna live there aside from political aspects but of environmental & health aspects alone.

aside from that your information is either out of thin air or based on your imagination alone. i've been to both countries and i would not need to think a single second in which country i would want to live.

I have no problem. And you have as much right to be a sinophobe,  as anybody else. At no point did I say that China dose not have prisons, just pointed out they are not the source of all evil as you seem to think.

When has anyone been imprisoned and or killed in China for that recently? And usually these stories only tell half truths. I remember a few years ago in Pakistan (S Punjab) a new road was to be built and a few dozen people were forcibly removed by police. Big hue and cry, all over the media and even the idiots at HRW gave their worthless opinions. The full story? The people were given warning two years earlier about this, they were paid three times the going rate for their land, and were provided new homes (of a higher) quality at public expense. They kept on refusing, and only then was minimum force employed to take them away.

Originally posted by beorna Of course there is a economical wonder. But with what results for a broad mass of people?

    My point exactly! It's precisely the broad mass of people that have benefited the most from China's economic reforms. Yes there is a bridging gap between the rich and poor. The coastal provinces are more well off at the moment than some of the more inland provinces. But that was all to be expected. Deng Xiaoping himself said let some people get rich first. You can't expect all 13 billion to get rich at the same time. And seriously, if millions of inhabitants along the Yangtze must be relocated for the Three Gorges Damn, a project that's going to tame the great river so there'll be no more devastating floods, then so be it.

Babyblue, I think nobody disagrees that China is in a change. But not every change is a good one. Of course there is a economical wonder. But with what results for a broad mass of people? The chinese economical behavior is not those of communists but of neo-capitalists. There are a lot losers. Of course every economical system has its, but I think China has to do a lot in the future to stop this development. And if you believe I just critsize just China or Russia, no, the developement in Germany in the moment isn't good yet, as well. I critisize it too. But not to notice the political situation in China, all those points according to human rights, is for me hard to understand.

Is there another Germany?

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim I'll say it again. The Chinese Communist party has done a damn good job, and I would much rather live there than Germany.

   Ok guys I think it's time I as a Chinese have to step in.
 I used to be a staunch anti-communist when I was younger. My family suffered under their rule during the 50's and 60's. My grandfather hated them, my father hated them, I hated them. Around 2001, someone gave us a a calender for the new year, and it was the portrait of Mao on the first page. As soon as my grandmother saw it she started swearing. And she never swears.
 
   But in the past ten years, my dad's views have changed, judging from some of the converstations we've had, and so have mine. The CCP from Deng Xiaping onwards is completely different from what it used to be. Surely it can't be that different, a typical Westerner would say, when you have the Tiananmen Square incident and the situation in Tibet. But that's only because they only care about human rights and freedom and their obsession with their concept of democracy. From what I've read in the majority of the posts here, nobody seems to care about the amazing progress China made in the past 30 years of economic reform, where the living standards of the average Chinese people have increased so dramatically, that every time I visit China, I am surprised by what I see. And all this is possible because of the vision and perseverance of Deng Xiaoping and his successors. Give the CCP some credit where it's due. My dad can, I can, and so can you. I'm sure the CCP would've redeemed itself in my  grandfather's eyes too, if he'd been alive today. Shame he can't see the Motherland of today.

   And I reiterate what Omar said, the CCP has done a damn good job over the past 30 years.


Edited by babyblue - 31-Aug-2008 at 03:24