What if Mongolians horde landed in Japan?

Originally posted by snoman713 japanese, hands down. since the majority of thier military activity was domestic, you can be sure they had learned to use the terrain of thier own country to thier advantage better than most nations at the time learned to use thiers. The rocky landscape with narrow corridors in between the mountains would have worked greatly to the adavntage of the japanese, and greatly inhibited thetraditional fighting style of the mongol hordes. Even if geurilla warfare was unknown, the japanese knew war very well, and would have most certainly been able to adapt in any way to secure the victory. Japanese, hands down. The Kamakura shogunate would have held on.

"It would still be a "Mongol invasion", because forcing the males of defeated peoples was almost universally done amongst all the campaigns, Yuan or non-Yuan.    Correct me if I'm wrong."

Originally posted by Gubook Janggoon I've never thought of that.  How good was meteorology in those regions at the time?

is it possible that Chinese or Korean sailor knew about the kamakaze before the invasion and trick the mongolians into it.

Originally posted by TranHungDao Originally posted by pekau There's not much to raid in Japan until you get to the Eastern Japan. Until then, they would be intercepted by mountains, Japanese warlords, Japanese resistance and overstretched communication and supply lines. I could have sworn that they made it to Japan, perhaps even landing some forces on eastern Japanese shores.  But I'd have to double check.

Originally posted by The Charioteer   And both the first invasion and second invasion had flawed warships.The korean used poor quality and recycled woods to build the warships, while the Chinese design of the warships for the Mongol was more "deadly" than the "divine wind",  whether its due to meet required invasion date or other reasons, Kubilai's third planned invasion would again rely on Korean resoures as if he doesnt trust the Chinese after failure of second invasion.

Actually, I've heard just the opposite.  From what I understand, Chinese ships were made out of shoddy materials (Intentionally in order to sabotage the Mongols IIRC).  On the other hand, I've heard stories (most likely exaggerated) that not a single Korean ship was sunk during the Kamikaze. 

Originally posted by TranHungDao Even one Mongol army could take down an entire empire or continent.

Except for Japan and Vietnam, and also to a lesser extent, Egypt

Originally posted by Hulegu Han The number of Chinese soldiers could't have been so much as you said. It sounds like that not Mongol invasion but invasion of China to Japan. As far as I know, Mongols used not to trust Chinese; for example, Mongol courts tended to choose other nationality, for example Khitans, Turks, Uygurs for governer of Chinese cities or in palace service. The same thing must have been in army !

It's true the Mongol conquerors didn't trust their Chinese subjects, but ...  There simply weren't that many Mongols males to begin with.  There were so many invasions during the Yuan dynasty; the two invasions of Japan were hardly the largest.  From what I understand, the generals were definitely Mongol.  The advisors, wartime "consiglieris", who always seemed to push Kublai towards war and conquest were Mongols.  But the bulk of the soldiers were not Mongols, but males from defeated populations.   I find it hard to believe they would actually import perhaps as much as a million+ non-Chinese, young & healthy, military age males for all the Yuan invasions, for that is what it would have taken.  Would the Other Khanates be willing to give up and transport that many men?

Besides, I'm pretty certain it was written in Yuan records that the bulk of the soldiers in the larger campaigns were indeed Chinese.

Originally posted by Hulegu Han It sounds like that not Mongol invasion but invasion of China to Japan.

It would still be a "Mongol invasion", because forcing the males of defeated peoples was almost universally done amongst all the campaigns, Yuan or non-Yuan.    Correct me if I'm wrong.

What are the perks of joining a Mongol army?  First, they didn't kill you.  Second, and perhaps just as important:  You can rape, pillage and plunder!  Not caring is fun! 

Originally posted by Hulegu Han The main advantage of Mongol army was the mobility or speed. They  were able to  be amazingly fast on battle field so it gave them good tactical chances over enemy army.  The European finest wariors  you mentioned above migth have been so slow  because of their heavy armor! Maybe I say wrong; if so, enlighten me, please!

Well, if you look at how they actually defeated the European knights...   (My understanding of it comes from an original article--as opposed to a mere forum posting-- her on AE.  The Mongols sent a small number of mounted archers to where the combined European forces were.  These archers fired off a few volley of arrows and then quickly retreated.  The Europeans calvary, i.e. the knights, naturally went into predator mode and gave chase.  The mounted Mongol archers lead them to a preplanned and well prepared ambush point, where many more mounted Mongol archers, or light cavalry, were waiting.  These combined force of mounted Mongol archers, or light cavalry then immediate proceeded to decimate the knights whom by the way were also separated from their own archers and infantry.  The heavy Mongol cavalry then moved in and mopped up the rest of what was left of the European knights.

If what I've just said is correct, then the mounted Mongol archer is by far more important than the Mongol heavy cavalry.  Take away the mounted Mongol archer, and the Mongol heavy cavalry would have to take on the knights alone.  Knights of course also rode horses.  (Were Mongol horses faster than that of the European varieties?  Even so, they couldn't have been that much faster.)  Also remember, the combined European force, including infantry, outnumbered the Mongols 3 to 1 or more--if memory serves me.


Edited by TranHungDao - 04-Jun-2007 at 16:51

Originally posted by TranHungDao Most "Mongol soldiers" were generally non-Mongols to begin with, i.e. men from defeated peoples who were given the choice of join or die.  The 1st invasion of Japan was about 50/50 Mongol and Korean and totalled about 25,000 (or was it 40,000 ???).  The second was mostly Chinese (100,000 maybe ?), some Korean, and of course actual Mongols.  The second invasion numbered about 140,000 "Mongol troops" in total.

The number of Chinese soldiers could't have been so much as you said. It sounds like that not Mongol invasion but invasion of China to Japan. As far as I know, Mongols used not to trust Chinese; for example, Mongol courts tended to choose other nationality, for example Khitans, Turks, Uygurs for governer of Chinese cities or in palace service. The same thing must have been in army !

Originally posted by TranHungDao The Mongols had their hands in more than just two places.

In the early 1260s, the Mongols probably had some minor engagements among their empire but the big conflicts were that of the Middle East and the Russian states and that of the Southern Song.