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Topic ClosedAlgerian Genocide!!!
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flyingzone View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 17:10
This "discussion" has lasted for 8 pages and has obviously not just led to nowhere but has gone downhill (actually since the very beginning). That is quite enough. Thread closed.
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Posts: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 17:07

genocide is shameful. nobody will agree to be accused by crime. germans had reconised that because their were the losers of WW2.

if you want turkish peuple to reconise this lie, you must first of all beat them.
last war that we done vs frenchs was the independance war after ww1.
and that was on our territory.  and we defended our country.
France & Russia were  the provokers of the armenians . they are directly in this affair. that why they are still continuing that war. 
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Posts: 2120 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:29
@Mortaza

All the people in france are gay no need for a law.
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Posts: 760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:27
Originally posted by Mortaza

why do france have one of biggest army of world? for which reason? do you afraid from some country will attack you?
 
or will you attack some country?


Answer the question please.

Turkey spends more % wise than France otherwise.

France spends around $45,000,000,000 a year in defence and is the world 3rd biggest defence spender (after the USA and China but over UK and Russia but it is only 2,6% of the GDP. Turkey spends $12,455,000,000 but it is a frightening 5,3% of the GDP!!!!
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:27
Mortaza

Can you tell me what the difference is between the Kurds who want independence and the Algerians who wanted independence?


Edited by mamikon - 09-Oct-2006 at 16:27
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:25
And not all armenians were deported, as I said before after independence war there were 600.000 armenians at anatolia.

600,000? are you mad? so where are they now? I have not seen any mass movement of Armenian population out of Anatolia in 1923. What did they do, disguise as Greeks and then leave?

Defination dont talk about intention(and as I said before money is not better intention.) an ottoman aim was not to kill armenians because they are armenians, but to protect their land.

So according to the definition you posted, every war, ever fought in human history, which resulted in human death, is Genocide?

in the definition you posted:

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:"

Also If I am not wrong, there were french people at algeria and I dont think algerian people know french because of no reason.

European, but mostly French, comprising 10% of the total Algerian population, number more than a million, left in 1962

Edited by mamikon - 09-Oct-2006 at 16:30
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Posts: 2120 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:23
Originally posted by Bulldog

Under those terms any massacre can be called a Genocide.
 
And it also includes "cultural genocide".
 
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
 
 


I do see mental but not cultural

Tiny difference isn't it? I mean I've heard about mental torture never cultural torture (well except the Begees who should be trialed and shot for genocide or earnocide).

Seriously the term cultural genocide is very unfortunate as in alterate the word genocide.

I've like the definition of genocide as the killing of members of a group. So we officially witnessed last week an Amish genocid!

Besides I wasn't creating accurate figures I was saying that there was a major difference in term of proportion (relatively at least 10 times more dead in Armenia than in Algeria and four time quicker...). Algeria was a dirty war where the Algerian civilians had more than their fair share of suffering.  But nothing to do with a Genocide.

Finally it pretty weird to me that the Algerian came up this genocide thing over forty years after the end of the war.
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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:23
I would like you Turks, to comment on that fact Turkey exports more, and not slightly more but a lot more, light weapons than France does.

Turkey exports $30,000,000 of light weapons a year, France exports $400,000 a year.

Those weapons are the ones with the highest civilian death toll. Each time France sells a boat it's hundreds of millions that are involved, so in total France sells for more money in heavy weapons, but these weapons are sold to government supposed to be responsible they are too expensive for militias and can't be lost by governments for obvious reasons. Turkey sells more rifles, machine guns, portable missile systems and grenades than France, these are the ones killing civilians by thousands and thousands in Africa and all around the world. They are the one that are involved in the highest amount of slaughter.
why do france have one of biggest army of world? for which reason? do you afraid from some country will attack you?
 
or will you attack some country?
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Posts: 3711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:21
War between PKK and Turkey

War between Algerian Independence Fighters (lets call them AKK) and France

now you see? the only difference is Algerians won, and also sustained more casualties
 
Not agree, or do you think we should count every one death as genocide?
 
Should we genocided terrorists?
 
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Posts: 760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:21
I would like you Turks, to comment on that fact Turkey exports more, and not slightly more but a lot more, light weapons than France does.

Turkey exports $30,000,000 of light weapons a year, France exports $400,000 a year.

Those weapons are the ones with the highest civilian death toll. Each time France sells a boat it's hundreds of millions that are involved, so in total France sells for more money in heavy weapons, but these weapons are sold to government supposed to be responsible they are too expensive for militias and can't be lost by governments for obvious reasons. Turkey sells more rifles, machine guns, portable missile systems and grenades than France, these are the ones killing civilians by thousands and thousands in Africa and all around the world. They are the one that are involved in the highest amount of slaughter.
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Posts: 3711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:19
There but one big difference between the Ottoman Empire and France which you did not include in your defintion. It is the intent. France was not intent on killing Algerians, they died because of War. A colony is not a colony if no one lives there. The Ottoman Empire however was intent on getting rid of Armenian, seeing how they were deported from everywhere in Anatolia
 
Defination dont talk about intention(and as I said before money is not better intention.) an ottoman aim was not to kill armenians because they are armenians, but to protect their land.
 
And not all armenians were deported, as I said before after independence war there were 600.000 armenians at anatolia.
 
You can accuse ottomans with a lot thing, but not racism.
Also If I am not wrong, there were french people at algeria and I dont think algerian people know french because of no reason.
 
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:17
War between PKK and Turkey

War between Algerian Independence Fighters (lets call them AKK) and France

now you see? the only difference is Algerians won, and also sustained more casualties
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Posts: 3711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:15
haha absolutely not, that 35.000 thing is totally absurd. 35.000 were killed because of war between Turkey and PKK.(all civilian, soldier and terrorist death, and not all of them happened because of army.)
 
And I dont think we will realy win that cup.
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:15
There but one big difference between the Ottoman Empire and France which you did not include in your defintion. It is the intent. France was not intent on killing Algerians, they died because of War. A colony is not a colony if no one lives there. The Ottoman Empire however was intent on getting rid of Armenian, seeing how they were deported from everywhere in Anatolia.

Sure, some Armenians died from war (directly) also, but how do you explain the deaths of those who were living in central Anatolia, far away form all of the battle fronts.
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:11
Also Mortaza

how do France's actions in Algeria differ from US's actions in Vietnam, and Turkey's actions, well, in Turkey, where only 10 years ago 35 thousands of Kurds were killed, clearly a segment of the Kurdish civilian population has been a target...maybe that should be considered as Genocide too, then Turkey can win the prize of the msot Genocidal nation Clap.

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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:10
Mamikan Infact acording to this defination, what ottoman did is absolutely genocide, like what france did.
 
The thing I dont like about this is france, not armenian genocide.
 
As I said before, If one is genocide, so other.
 
I have no problem with discussion about genocide, but a law is not discussion.
 
Anyway, I think we should write a new law that say all France people are gay, and we should jail anyone who refuse this gayness.
 
Than should write another law about armenians, than greeks ext ext.
 
 
 
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Posts: 2200 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:06
Mortaza

For some reason you can apply the defintion you have posted to France, but not to the Ottoman Empire?

why might I ask?


I have been posting that same defintion of Genocide over and over agian in many threads, not that anyone gave a damn, but since you accuse another country you can use it?
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Posts: 760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:05
Originally posted by Bulldog

You have world support? I don't think so, its not Internationally Recognised, some countries have agreed there was a genocide and left it at that.


It is internationaly recognised, not worldwide (it'll never be since Turkey probably won't ever recognise it). But it is internationaly recognised.


Also, Turkey will recognise the Algerian Genocide, other coutries may follow suite, after many countries recognise the Algerian Genocide will that make the case stronger.


Go on, we're ready Ouch.
 
Another figment of your immagination is the Nazi comparison. Jews had no arms, no army, no millitary training by Russians, no aspirations of a Jewish state in Germany, never attacked German towns or cities, never had gangs pillaging Germany's country-side.
 
Armenians did have arms and trained armed gangs and regiments serving the Russian army.
 
This is widely accepted, if you get a map of the era you'll realise Russia had entered the Caucaus and up till todays Turkish borders, the Armenians in those newly occupied terrotories collaberated with the Russians.
 
The French trained and armed Armenians in the "Hatay" region, called Cicillia by Armenians and they fought aswell.
 
These arn't baseless accusations there hard facts.
 
This doesn't excuse the fact that many Armenians were killed either, neither does it excuse the many Turks and Kurds killed in the region.
 
Oh and if you want Nazi comparisons...


Me an nazi comparison?

Have you seen the videos of the Nuremberg trial? The Nazi who ordered the final solution claimed themselves they did because the Jews supported the communists. It was all BS of course but that was the rationale behind the holocaust. Just like the Turks slaughtered the Armenians because they were accused of supporting the Russians. Then, I'm sure the children and women that died in the Armenian Genocide were really dangerous for the Ottoman Empire weren't they?  Isn't it the rationale behind the slaughter?
 
Mr Bouteflika said Algeria had "never ceased waiting for an admission from France of all the acts committed during the colonial period and the war of liberation."

And he shocked many in France when he drew a direct comparison between the burning of thousands of Algerian bodies after the massacres with "the ovens of the Nazis."

BBC


Populist speech, I know he said that, but it's BS. Comparing the French occupation to the Holocaust is offending to the victims of the Holocaust. It's using their pain and historical suffering for populist rethoric, the Algerian president (himself not a clean man at all) should be ashamed of himself.
 
 
 
Edouard Sablier, for instance, one of the soldiers who took part in the repression, later described the situation: Everywhere in the towns there were camps surrounded by barbed wire containing hundreds of suspects who had been arrested Often, when we set out to inspect an isolated hamlet in the mountains, I heard people say, We should punish them by taking away their crops.......A paper called Oh Partisans, published by the French Trotskyists, described Stif as an Algerian Oradour. Oradour was a French town where the Nazi occupiers had murdered over 600 people, including children.
 
 



I would like to know more about these though, yet that doesn't prove any plan to kill all Algerians.


And what's with Oradour? Are you telling me there was a French genocide done by the Nazi? Nothing could be more stupid than that.

Says you, Algeria says it did and in areas populations were systematically exterminated. Why is "cultural genocide" nonsense? your not a victim of it who are you to tell victims of it that it's nonsense.


Cultural genocide is a nonsense, it doesn't take to be a victim to tell that. A genocide is the planned extermination of an entire group, there is therefore no such thing called a cultural genocide. Only people without a single pint of respect for the real genocide would claim the opposite, shame of them!

 
Why are the French archives on the matter closed then? jeez even Turkey opened the Ottoman archives.
 
There are discussions in Turkey aswell, what's your point, its not any different.


They aren't closed, they are opened. Please no BS source again, you can go to the military archive and read them yourself in Ivry.
 
 
Algeria's indigenous population was decimated in the early years of French settler colonial rule, falling from over four million in 1830 to less than 2.5 million by 1890. Systematic genocide was coupled with the brutal suppression of Algerian cultural identity. Indigenous Algerians were French subjects, but could only become French citizens if they renounced Islam and Arab culture. A ruthless policy of acculturation followed, and the remaining Algerians were forced to cease speaking their native Arabic and use the French of their colonial masters instead. The indigenous Muslim population of Algeria was not permitted to hold political meetings or bear arms. They were subjected to strict pass laws that required indigenous Muslim Algerians to seek permission from the colonial authorities to leave their hometowns or villages.
 
Ahmed Ben Bella
 
 


A leader of the FLN, awesome source, what's next Stalinist sources?
 
The map prooves nothing, its not Internationally accepted that there was a Genocide, its never been approved by International courts.
 
In a few years, after Algeria starts pushing hard for recognition of the Algerian Genocide and some countries accept will this be evidence that it happened, common don't be so naive.


This map proves both that the Armenian Genocide is internationally recognised and that you're in complete denial.
 
It doesn't matter if the entire world accept this, if Turkey doesn't accept it and sort it out with Armenia it means nothing.


ClapClapClap


Clap
 
You've been saying what everyone claimed for ages!
 

Oh sure...


Sure
 
Amar Bakhouche reacted that France did not apologize for massacres it committed in Algeria and it keep the archives related to that period closed. He said the greatest majority of archives related to that period were brought to France and they were kept closed. "They are not open for French and Algerians. We urged to immediately open them for public" he said.
 
The audacity of it, even Ottoman archives are open.


They are opened, just go to Ivry and get the military archives.
 
Bulldog
Oh and France isn't too happy about the allegations about its role in the Rwandan Genocidel, Rwanda holds France responsible.

Passive? training, arming, supporting and being directly involved is not "passive support", if that's your idea of passive I'd hate to see what's aggressiveDead
 
And in Chad, Benin, Gabon.............. all these will be bought up, France is opening its can of worms.


Yeah passive, you could hold responsible for every crime on earth then the people who produced guns and mines. Countries that are still producing anti-personnal mines are on this regard much more criminal. Wanna see something you won't like?

Small arms authorised exports (compiled datas by the CIA):
USA: $533,000,000
UK: $92,000,000
Turkey: $30,000,000
France $400,000

You read well, Turkey exports more bullets, machine guns, grenades and mines than France. In total, France is the world 3rd biggest weapon traders, but most of these weapons sold are heavy weapons sold to government. I find it big of you, Turks, then to blame France for the death of civilians when more Turkish rifles are sold around the world.
 
These light weapons, they are the real weapons of massive destructions, they are the direct responsible for the largest amount of death toll around the world. They are also the weapons of the terrorists, it's Stinger missiles and Ak-47 that kill civilians in more quantity than anything else, not our Leclercs and Exocets.


Edited by Exarchus - 09-Oct-2006 at 16:07
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Posts: 3711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:04
Maharbbal, 70% of population(As I said before, 70% of population is impossible but I wont discuss it again)? 
 
So you want to tell me killing 50% of some people is better than killing 70% of some people?
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Posts: 2120 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:00
Originally posted by Mortaza

I don't understand why the hell there couldn't be both a Genocide in Armenia and several massacres in Algeria.

I don't understand why the hell there couldn't be both a Genocide in Algeria and several massacres in Armenia.



Algeria 350,000 dead in 8 years including those of the fighting between French terrorist OAS (non governmental actually they've tried a few times to kill the French president and one or two coups as well) and FLN. So that is 43,750 a year. Too much but still less than the US in Vietnam for example. That's around 4,5% of the population.

Armenia: According to the account given further up: almost 1,300,000 in 1914, 300,000 in 1918 that's (if we concider there were two years of massacre) that's 500,000 a year that is over 12 times worst.  That is also around 70% of the population.

Well that's pretty clear to me.
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