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Democracy,compatible with huge population
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Democracy,compatible with huge population
    Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 11:31
Considering the very title of this thread, "Democracy, compatible with huge population", it might be somewhat enlightening to see and listen to this video?

I call it Marx, Engels, Stalin, Hitler, progressives, Fabians and G. Bernard Shaw!

Perhaps it might explain my constant reference to death camps, or re-education camps, as a tenent of Progressivism?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw7DtjO4V6c&feature=related

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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 11:00
TGS wrote above;

"Beck and conservatives are claiming that minorities are planning on setting up death camps, re-education camps, (like the one Opuslola mentioned), secret armies, taking money away from whites to give to minorities, killing white babies, etc... etc...

Remember when Hitler also blamed minorities for Germany's problems and decay, and how Hitler scared the masses into following him and over looking mass murder and genocide? Is this where Beck is headed? I think so."

I will just substitute a few words and explain what the Obama administration has done or plans to do.

Obama, or his minions and advisors, are claiming that White Christians are planning on setting up death camps, re-education camps, (like the one Opuslola mentioned), secret armies, taking money away from Government programs to give to faith based groups, killing non-producing babies, etc... etc...

Remember when Woodrow Wilson also blamed minorities for America's problems and decay, and how Wilson scared the masses into following him into WW I, and over looking mass murder and genocide? Is this where Obama's advisors are headed? I think so.


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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 10:38
It seems hard to really grasp the entire revolution and civil war that existed in Russia.

But, perhaps the human experience such as is found in in the nnovel, "Dr. Zhivago", or "Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (born 1918), author, Nobel Prize for Literature, 'One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich'", or any of Ayn Rand's works would be a fine place to begin an investigation?

Certainly it would be hard for anyone to really investigate the internal mechanisms of the various Socialists factions, the Red and White armies, etc., since so much information has probably been destroyed in the intervening years.

Edited by opuslola - 01-Sep-2010 at 10:44
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 07:05
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Hitler's party NSDAP had 36,8 % of votes in 1932 elections, so not majority. Hitler also lost presidential elections with Paul von Hindenburg.
 
That was in 1933. By 1939, The Germany people, for the most part, supported Hitler.
 
 
Yeah, but all those who didnt support Hitler were by 1939 dead, in concentration camps or abroad. That helped to increase people's support. But still there was hidden opposition which was looking for cooperation with the British and trying to kill or remove Hitler from power - eg. admiral Canaris and his men.
 
 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Mosquito

 
 As for the bolsheviks they didnt have majority in all the Russia, they just had the support of soldiers and navy in St. Petersburg what gave them power in the way of armed rebellion.


Again, this is wishful thinking. The Bolsheviks had the support of the majority of the Russian people, which included the military and navy. In fact, the Bolsheviks had so much legitimacy amongst the people that a coalition of Western powers aiding the White Army could not defeat them.
 
 
Yeah, and because of that great support of the people the Bolsheviks had to create Vecheka and introduce the great terror. I would rather say that all the leftist parties had together the majority so Bolsheviks had first to murder all other socialists. And dont forget that Poland could have finished the Bolsheviks. Polish leader marshal Pilsudski has stopped his armies after victory because he considered that time white Russia as worse enemy of Poland than the Bolsheviks. He just refused all French and British proposals.
 
 


Edited by Mosquito - 01-Sep-2010 at 07:11
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 01:27
Originally posted by opuslola

I would rather be called "foolish" by you than "God" by another! After all you have self appointed yourself as the "only recognized expert" at this site!

Hail TGS, Hail, TGS!. etc.!

Just when can I be expected to report to your progressive re-education camp?
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 01:17
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by Carol

 
Okay who is Bek scapegoating?


Liberals, progressives, minorities
 
Originally posted by Carol


What does Beck say we have to fear?


"communism", "socialism", Islam, blacks, illegal immigrants, gays, healthcare, etc...
 
Originally posted by Carol


Who or what is suppose be the target of hate and fear?


Those who do not agree with the conservative ultra religious conservative world view
 
Originally posted by Carol


What did a minority do that threatens the mojority?
 


Beck and conservatives are claiming that minorities are planning on setting up death camps, re-education camps, (like the one Opuslola mentioned), secret armies, taking money away from whites to give to minorities, killing white babies, etc... etc...

Remember when Hitler also blamed minorities for Germany's problems and decay, and how Hitler scared the masses into following him and over looking mass murder and genocide? Is this where Beck is headed? I think so.
 
Beck sounds pretty bad.  We have so much work to do.  The Christian agenda is not compatible with democracy.  
 
I did not personally experince Hitler and NAZI Germany.  I do know Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire, and the Protestant Reformation Movement, and that it was not lack of Christianity that made Germany our enemy.  I do know the US has adopted the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose. 
I know when Reagan said we do not need to conserve, he was lying to us.  The only way to meet our growing need for oil, was to import it, and our need to important oil, became our need to be the same New World Order leader that Hilter's Germany attempted to be.  You know the New World Order that Bush Senior bragged is ours, and George Bush Junior and Cheney tried to promote, labeling it the New American Century Project, and planning the military control of mid east oil countries long before 9/11.   
 
I know, Iran had a democratically elected leader and the Eisenhower administration used the CIA to incite a rebellion and replaced him with the US pick for leader of Iran and that this guy was a brutal leader, and unlike the Iraqi, the Iranians rebelled against this US picked leader and threw him out.   This was not the only brutal leader backed by the US.  Saddam was also supported by the US, and Ben Laden was supported by the US.  When Bush talked about the US leading the New World Order, he was talking about the US being a Military-Industrial Complex capable of defending its economic interest around the world, with completely knieve US citizens paying the tab. 
 
I know if it had not been for Eisenhower establishing the Military-Industrial Complex, our reality would be completely different today. 
 
I know when Reagan took office, research on poverty disappears from the abstracts and there is a complete shift to research on welfare fraud.   Within a year the result of biased research was used to scapegoat the poor for our ecomonic troubles, as surely as Germany scapegoated the Jews.  Both the German and US agend was to slash domestic budgets and pour money into military spending, so that the military could be used for economic purpose.  That is, for the control of the New World Order. 
 
It is difficult to discuss such things when this information is unfamiliar to those I try to discuss such things with.   I think we really need to ask what is the responsibility of government, before we can tackle the question of this thread.   Is it the responsibility of a democratic government to use its military force to defend the nation's economic interest around the world, and who pays for this? 
For darn sure the agenda of the Republic party has not been happy families and living within our means.   Texas oil backed Eisenhower, Reagan and Bush and Bush.   Texas education strongly promoted racism and is Christian controlled.   Beck's agenda should get international attendion, because it is the foundation for war.  
 
Opuslola, you seem proud to tell us you are Native American.  What is your tribe and how do the tribal values square with the Christian New World Order? 
 


Edited by Carol - 01-Sep-2010 at 01:27
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 00:16
Originally posted by opuslola

Carolus, I am sorry but I still cannot define just where you stand? Maybe you are standing in the middle of the road?

Perhaps, you should step to one side or the other before you get run over?
 
Hum where do I stand?  I belief democracy is to be understood as rule by reason.  It is based on the belief that humans can learn and reason, and that the universe is the result of cause and effect, which we can understand by studying nature.   That when humans come to understand the causes and effects, they can govern themselves.   Democracy leads to the highest morality, because it is understood if we do wrong, bad things will happen, and that is why we should choose for what is right.   Our liberty is all about the choosing what is right.   That does not mean being passive or tolerant when someone chooses what is wrong.  When someone chooses wrong, s/he must be held accountable for the consequences.  What happens to us, is the result of our choices, not a God's whims.  
 
There are two ways to have social order, culture or authority over the people.  We speak poorly of the Soviet Union because athough it practiced a degree of democracy, it was actually very authoritarian, and so was the German republic authoritarian.   However, we did model our industry after England's autocracy and Christianity supports autocracy, so without education for democracy, the US can not possibly manifest democracy.   For economic and religious reasons, it is autocratic, and the further we get from education for democracy, the more authoritarian we become. 
 
Please understand we are having a disucssion of if democracy is compatiable with a huge population, without mentioning any democratic principles and how they are manifest.  We aren't even near the road,  Opuslola, but complete lost in a desert with terrorist and demons, and throwing stones at each other.
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Posts: 1152 		  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 00:00
Originally posted by opuslola

When I look at my face in the mirror, I see an aged Native American with most of my life behind me!


Native American...sure.

Originally posted by opuslola

Because you equated Beck's movement with that of Hitler!


If the shoe fits. Plus, Beck makes the perfect Nazi Aryan.LOL

Originally posted by opuslola


Absolutely not! There exist no similarities between the two other than those that exist in your warped and racist, hateful mind!


Denial denial denial.....

Originally posted by Carol

 
Okay who is Bek scapegoating?


Liberals, progressives, minorities
 
Originally posted by Carol


What does Beck say we have to fear?


"communism", "socialism", Islam, blacks, illegal immigrants, gays, healthcare, etc...
 
Originally posted by Carol


Who or what is suppose be the target of hate and fear?


Those who do not agree with the conservative ultra religious conservative world view
 
Originally posted by Carol


What did a minority do that threatens the mojority?
 


Beck and conservatives are claiming that minorities are planning on setting up death camps, re-education camps, (like the one Opuslola mentioned), secret armies, taking money away from whites to give to minorities, killing white babies, etc... etc...

Remember when Hitler also blamed minorities for Germany's problems and decay, and how Hitler scared the masses into following him and over looking mass murder and genocide? Is this where Beck is headed? I think so.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 01-Sep-2010 at 00:12
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 23:40
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by opuslola


Just when can I be expected to report to your progressive re-education camp?


Never, because it such things dont, and wont, exist. The only people who believe in such fantasies are those who want an excuse to commit horrible crimes in the future. You want to believe that minorities and progressives are a threat because, in your ideal world, you'd simply like to do away with all of them.

The parallels between Hitlers movement and Becks movement are amazingly similar:

-find scapegoats
-manipulate the masses with fear mongering
-create hate and anger
-convince the majority that minorities are out to get them and destroy their country
- etc.. etc...

Dont you find the similarities astonishing?

Just look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you so blindly believe and follow a man like Beck when neither he nor you have any evidence to back up any of the outrageous beliefs who hold on to.
 
Okay who is Bek scapegoating? 
 
What does Beck say we have to fear?
 
Who or what is suppose be the target of hate and fear? 
 
What did a minority do that threatens the mojority?
 
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 21:27
Carolus, I am sorry but I still cannot define just where you stand? Maybe you are standing in the middle of the road?

Perhaps, you should step to one side or the other before you get run over?
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 21:23
When I look at my face in the mirror, I see an aged Native American with most of my life behind me!

You also wrote a series of things designed to make me look like a racist pig! Because you equated Beck's movement with that of Hitler!

You then wrote; "Dont you find the similarities astonishing?"

Absolutely not! There exist no similarities between the two other than those that exist in your warped and racist, hateful mind!


And angered I am!

As I have stated numerous times in the past, you are the "Troll under the Bridge!"

And, you should be banned!
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Originally posted by opuslola


Just when can I be expected to report to your progressive re-education camp?


Never, because it such things dont, and wont, exist. The only people who believe in such fantasies are those who want an excuse to commit horrible crimes in the future. You want to believe that minorities and progressives are a threat because, in your ideal world, you'd simply like to do away with all of them.

The parallels between Hitlers movement and Becks movement are amazingly similar:

-find scapegoats
-manipulate the masses with fear mongering
-create hate and anger
-convince the majority that minorities are out to get them and destroy their country
- etc.. etc...

Dont you find the similarities astonishing?

Just look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you so blindly believe and follow a man like Beck when neither he nor you have any evidence to back up any of the outrageous beliefs who hold on to.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 31-Aug-2010 at 20:30
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 20:24

opuslola, I should never be the subject of a post, unless the thread is about me.  This thread is not about me.  This thread is about democracy and the challenge of governing a large mass.  The USSR and US have gone about this challenge differently, and it would be nice to discuss this difference.  Ideally the workers in the soviet union had economic power through a democratic process.  US industry is modeled after England's autocracy, and the average citizen  sure as hell has not had economic power since WWII, because big business is not controlled by the vote of the masses, and big business rules.  Walmart has the power to close down domestic industries and force companies to establish factories over seas, and few small locally owned stores can successfully compete with Walmart.   We are in an economic crisis and don't have a clue to how to manage it.  So much for our great democracy.  This is the New World Order, and you are not the one with the power. 

As we move from a labor intense industrial economy to a low labor intense technological society, we face major problems.  Since the economies of all industrial nations depends on energy and oil is the most important in the mix of energy for industrial nations, facing the finite reality of oil is a major problem.  Are you prepared to discuss this?  If not, then why to do you think you have anything like political or economic power?  Maybe you and your neighbors can vote on gay rights and the dog catcher, but is this really having political and economic power?   Our voting rights are  like giving a kid a bucket of water and paint brush to help paint the house, and if you think you can argue against this point, please do! 
 
Technocracy has been a controlling factor in our economy since WWII, shouldn't we discuss this?  Or how about defining what is the responsibility of government and who does have the power, and what it is that gives anyone power?  Come on, do you have anything to say about any subject related to the subject of this thread?   
 
About trying to figure me out, life is not a matter of black and whites, but like quantum physics, or if you like, the gods, we can best speak of our reality in complex concepts, that are blends of simpler concepts.   It is many things coming together in different mixes.   What is the best way to empower the people, so that they can best govern themselves?   Name and define a concept, any concept, then we might have a discussion.    The number of people who show up at a demonstration or polical rally, really doesn't matter much.    However, the number of people who shop at Walmart instead of a locally owned store, might explain something relevent to the subject.   Are you going to hire a local tailor to make your clothes, or buy what you need at Walmart?   How do you vote with your money?   What is the source of your money and what gives you the power to get that money from the source?  
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 18:37
I would rather be called "foolish" by you than "God" by another! After all you have self appointed yourself as the "only recognized expert" at this site!

Hail TGS, Hail, TGS!. etc.!

Just when can I be expected to report to your progressive re-education camp?
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Originally posted by opuslola

500,000! And I believe him over you or any source you would care to mention!


And how easy the masses flock to some of the most vile people. Beck is Hitler, and the Tea Partiers are the sheep that will allow him to commit the most terrible of crimes.

Originally posted by opuslola



Actually TGS, during the campaign for president in 1992, I was mostly assigned to cover the activities of W.J. Clinton, and I was present at numerous rallies where multiple thousands were congregated!

I have also been to sporting events, and other political events, where crowds of 100,000 or so were present, so I have a pretty good guess when it comes to crowds!

Also, as a last and not a minor point, I have actually walked around the "Mall" area, in front of the Lincoln Memorial and the Reflecting Pool, etc., it is a vast space!


None of this makes you an expert. The fact that you think this would even remotely make you qualified to make such estimates makes you look foolish.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 31-Aug-2010 at 18:22
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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TGS mentioned me when he said;

"Well you have an untrained eye and you are not a expert at making crowd estimations. There are experts in this field whose job it is to make such estimations, and its not simply just looking and guessing, there is a process involved."

Actually TGS, during the campaign for president in 1992, I was mostly assigned to cover the activities of W.J. Clinton, and I was present at numerous rallies where multiple thousands were congregated!

I have also been to sporting events, and other political events, where crowds of 100,000 or so were present, so I have a pretty good guess when it comes to crowds!

Also, as a last and not a minor point, I have actually walked around the "Mall" area, in front of the Lincoln Memorial and the Reflecting Pool, etc., it is a vast space!

But, perhaps your past is also full of such first hand considerations?

But, you believe just what you want to believe!

Truth is far from anything which you could imagine!
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Gracious Carlos, I just don't know what to make of you? At one time or another you seem to bounce from one side of the political spectrum to the other?

As Yoda might have said; "Confused, I am!"

But, perhaps it is all in just my perception of you and your posts?

Now if you were a young woman, then I might well think differently?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 17:54
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Originally posted by opuslola

TGS, in support of the talley done by someone hired by CBS news, a known neutral source for news, said this;


CBS did not come up with the statistic, they hired a company which specializes in the task to do so, a company whose figures conservatives have also used in the past. This is what a responsible news agency does.

Originally posted by opuslola


I actually heard that Beck and Co., actually also hired a staff to count the numbers!


If so, then please show me the source. Show me the statistics.

Originally posted by opuslola


From my view of the festivities, I would guess that the crowd was well over 200,000!


Well you have an untrained eye and you are not a expert at making crowd estimations. There are experts in this field whose job it is to make such estimations, and its not simply just looking and guessing, there is a process involved.

Originally posted by opuslola


I am sure, if Washington Police that have covered other similar events were allowed respond, then my figure would be closer than that proposed by CBS's biased team!


How do you know? As far as I know, every time the police give an estimate, the conservatives complain. Last time the police also said it was less than what the conservatives reported.

For example, at the 9/12 rally, most news outlets, including the DC fire department, reported that there was around 75,000 people at that rally.

Interestingly, just like with the 8/28 rally, conservatives themselves cant even agree. Two organizers of the 9/12 rally gave two different numbers, one saying that the rally had between 200,000 and 300,000 people and the other organizer saying there were between 600,000 to 800,000.

So Opuslola, I ask you this, why are we getting such drastically different numbers from different conservatives (Palin: 100,000, Beck: 500,000+, Bachmann: 1 million+)?

Because they are all just making them up.

The only real source so far, the only organization that actually took up the task of counting, says the number was at 87,000 with a margin of error of 9,000.

Until a real source emerges contending otherwise, there is no reason to doubt this particular statistic. So as far as I know, and considering that Beck, Palin, and Bachmann are liars, I'll take that statistic until there is another source for me to consider.

Originally posted by opuslola


In just about one hour and a half, Beck's TV show will be aired, and maybe he will release the figures his team estimated?


Yes, and I would also like to know the source, not just him going on TV and saying it.


 
Okay, okay the exact number of people matters why?
 
We are talking about governing a large mass of people.  What we need is a city ordinance that makes it illegal for more than 15 people to gather without a city permit.  My city has such an ordiance, and why would a good citizen object to this protection of civil peace and order?   Please, do carry your ID and be ready to show it.  
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 17:41
May be we should get more specific to the question?
 
How to govern a large mass of people?
 
Give everyone a number.  Now set up a testing system so they can be tracted through education.  Pass the "No Child Left Behind Act" that requires schools to give military recruiters children's names and addresses.  Mandate banks varify people's addresses before giving them bank accounts and it is good that libraries do this too.  Pass a priavcy act that prevents family from knowing anything about family, unless there is a specific court order  for that a family to have information, and then make sure the persons phone and address have not changed, every time this person does anything involving medical care.   Require everyone to carry state authorized ID, and do not not sell them alcoholic beverages or cigarettes nor get on a Grey Hound bus or airplane without showing this ID.   Centralize the production and distribution of what people consume.  Hum, what else might me need to govern them?  Maybe check what the put on the Internet? 
 
I hope I am saying things politically correctly and do not get banned for saying the wrong thing.  Of course if I do, that is not as bad as loosing my career for saying the wrong thing.  God forbide someone have a lapse in judgment in what s/he says, even if it is said in private.
 
Oh I almost forgot, be sure everyone reports on their family and neighbors if they suspect any kind of abuse and let the "authorities" investigate and decide if action needs to be taken.  Make everyone with a job dealing in some form of human service, manatory reporters, with the threat of them loosing their job if they fail to resport even a suspicion of abuse.  Surely, they make no conncetion between this and NAZI Germany, because they know our government would never do anything wrong, and we are good people, not like those Germans.  Ermm
 
Oh education for a technological society with uniknown values, preparing the young to be products for industry is a good idea too, like technocracy.  Hey, this is just being efficient.  With test we can path and tract the children, and determine those best suited for higher education and those who are not.  Our technological society demands this.  No problem, we have everything under control, because we know the masses require our good governence and protection.  Dead 
 
Hail the Bush family and the New World Order.  Reagan was almost a God.  Can you imagine what might have happened if he hadn't built up our military might.  We might have missed "The Power and Glory" of bombing the hell out of Iraq, and defending our nation in Afghanistan.   Yeah, we are good, we are good.   Not like those Germans of the Japanese who foolishly thought their countries were worth dying for. 
 
We are a democracy- no, the US was never a democracy, it is a republic.  But, but we are spreading democracy around the world.  Shut up and do your research, but don't look at information more than 10 years old, because it is outdated and useless.    Also be sure your information is  approved- it is best to rely on the abstracts, so you know you are getting good information.  Got that, use the Abstracts and nothing older than 10 yesrs old.  And ban anyone who irritates people by saying the wrong thing. 
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 17:35
500,000! And I believe him over you or any source you would care to mention!

Actually TGS is you told me the Sun was shining here today, I would look for an umbrella!

Love ya guy!
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