The 2nd battle site of the 9 battle sites of Arthur where 4 battles (numbers 2-5) of his 12 battles were fought is Dubglas/Linnuis which we found to match the 2nd (excluding Branodunum/Brancaster) of 9 SS sites Othona/Bradwell near Maldon in Essex. Here is what the primary source text(s) say about Dubglas/Linnuis:
British/Welsh Celtic: "... Dubglas ... Linnuis/*Linnwys." (- Possible lost original Welsh poem version that Jackson etc believed the Latin HB version was a translation from?)
Latin/Roman: "Secundum (uero) et tertium/tercium et quartum et quintum super (aliud) flumen ((,) quod vocatur/dicitur) Dubglas (et est in regione Linnius/Linnuis/*Lindenses)." (- HB of Nennius, and LF of Omer.)
Irish Celtic: "in tanaiste & in treas & in ceathramad & in cuicead cath for bru Dubglaisi;" (- Irish HB.)
English: "His/The second (indeed and / ,) (the) third ,/and (the) fourth (,) and (the) fifth ((battle(s)), (were)) on/above/to-the-east-of (the/another) river (which is / , by the Britons called/named) Duglas/Dubglas/Dubhglas [meaning "black stream" or "blue black"] (and is / , in the region/district (of) Linnius/Linnuis/Linuis/Inniis [meaning "district/inhabitants of proper place name Lindum" or "district/inhabitants of pool"]) ./;" (- Our awkward composite combination of various English translations of HB, Irish HB, and the LF.)
"....There is, indeed, a Carlion and a Caerwent referred to in the Breton lai d'Ywenec, and the latter is said to be on the Doglas, and was the capital city of Avoez, lord of the surrounding country."
Checklist of identification details of the Dubglas battle site in the source texts: - on/over river (brink) called Dubglas name/meaning (HB, LF) - contrasted with Glein (HB) - in region Linnuis name/meaning (HB, HRB) - to the east of the river &/or in the East or northeast (O'Toole, Fields) - in a triad of rivers (HB) - is near Glein and Celidon or Bassas (HB, HRB, Thompson) - 2nd/2nd-5th of a set of 9/12 sites/battles (HB, LF) - four battles fought there (HB) - British victory (HB) - fought by Arthur/Britons there then (HB, LF, HRB)) - fought against Saxons "from Germany & every province" (HB, HRB, LF, Evans) - in (the island of) Britain (HB, HRB) - date before Ida (HB) - is "History" (HB, HRB) - written by "Nennius" who also wrote the Wonders (HB) - Hengist/Octa there (HRB, theelf) - Thancastre there (HRB) - Cadwallon & Edwin treaty there (HRB)? - near Mersee (Higden) - Witham/Wigan (Higden, P Graham) - Denises (HRB, Bede)? - near "Caerwent" (Ywenec)? - matches Eidyn 1 in Pa Gur (Bambrough)?
Of the details above the two that critics and sceptics have indicated are the most important to them are the names matches, and the evidence of Britons there in the "Anglo-Saxon" south-east then.
Before we give the evidences for our Dubglas/Linnuis location candidate site it is necessary for us to first show reasons why the main rival Dubglas/Linnuis location candidate of Arthurian linguistic experts is weak, so as to remove the blockage in some people's minds to considering other locations' evidences. Reasons why we are sure that Dubglas/Linnuis is not in Lincoln include: - Pretty much the only major pillar that they have for Lincoln is the possible Linnuis name match and nothing much else (except for the lesser supporting supposed possible matches of the "greenish" Witham, and the "our 2nd battlesite Lincoln comes next after our 1st battlesite Glen not massively far away", and the Witham's water tint/hue contrast with the Glen's.) - It is only theory and assertion, they have not proven it. They dont seem to have found or nominated or proven any specific site of the Dubglas battle? - Their Dubglas site is not number "2nd" in an historically attested set of 9 or 12 sites (which all match in order) like ours is. - There is no known river named Dubglas or Black in Lincolnshire (except for perhaps a Blacklow placename?) The only few major rivers in Lincolnshire are the Witham "whose ancient name is unknown", the Ancholme, and the Trent. Though they say that the "blue black" meaning of Dubglas could match the "unhealthy looking sluggish, greenish river" description/nature of the Witham, and the "waterways flowing off the muddy peat moors" in Lincolnshire "peat land". - Lindsey/Lincoln is not the only Linnuis name candidate in Britain, expert linguists agree there are a couple/few other places with same name element. - It has been said that Dubglas/Linnuis is close to Glein and Bassas and/or Celidon in the HB & HRB, but the orthodox Linnuis candidate is not close to the orthodox Caledon candidate. Arthur cant have romped over too greater distances over the whole length and breadth of Britain as some orthodox theories imply (HRB, Brynjulfson, M Wood, Gunther-Evans). - Some theories consider the river Glein battlesite to match the Glen in Lincolnshire, and some consider Bassas to be Bassington on the Witham in Lincoln, and some even suggest Badon was at Baumber in Lincoln, but the HB doesnt say Glein or Bassas or Badon was in Linnuis like it did for Dubglas. (Though they say the linguistic meaning of Linnuis may only be Lindsey/Lincoln not Lincolnshire.) - Lincoln was almost an island in Roman times, and it doesn't seem overly strategic for 4 victorious battles of Arthur against Saxons (despite a Roman colony being there)? 4 battles in Linnuis seems to imply a bit more of an important strategic location? - Most sources say Arthur fought "Saxons", and "Cerdic", and "specifically Kentishmen". Not many sources say he fought "Angles". Lindsey was Anglian not Saxon. Arthur's battles were before/until Ida in the HB, and Ida was one of the earliest northern Anglian invaders. Lincoln is not in the stretch/tract of the main 9 SS forts in the ND which only extends from Norfolk to Suffolk. - Lindsey/Lincoln doesn't feature in the Bretwaldas/Octarchs list, and it doesn't feature in the ASC until after Arthur's traditional or estimated times. The Lindas/Lindais battle in Irish annals is also after Arthur's times. - There also doesn't seem a terribly lot of evidence for Arthurian Britons in Lincoln in Arthur's times? (Though there is a British name in the famous royal genealogy of Lindsey.) - We have shown in our articles that Eidyn 1 of the 9 Pa Gur battles probably matches our Dubglas and Othona site(s). Can our rivals/critics show Eidyn matches their "Dubglas" and Lincoln site(s)? - How do our rivals explain the strange coincidence of Witham/Wigan/Wickam names at all 3 Dubglas location canidates sites? - Thancastre in Linnuis in the HRB could match our site Othona/Ithancester (or Thanet) rather than Thong Castle (Caistor) in Lincoln. Hengist & Octa were in Linnuis in the HRB, and it is more likely they were at Othona closer to Kent/Thanet, rather than in Lincoln further away from Kent/Thanet. - The analogous Dubglas sites in Lothian, Isle of Man, and Ireland are more similar to our south-east site than to the orthodox Lincoln site. The orthodox Witham/Lincoln site also has analogous similarities to our Essex/London site. - Our battlesite location candidate has better quality and quantity matches evidences.
Dubglas number/order match: The 2nd battle site of Arthur of the HB matches the 2nd SS site Othona/Bradwell, and the sites before and after in both sets also match in order (with the numbers also matching). Our 9 battle sites location theory is the only one which has a match of the 9 battle sites with an attested set of 9 sites which all match in numbers all in order. The HB lists 12 battles of Arthur, but 4 of the battles were fought in the same place or area which makes only 9 battle sites of Arthur. Dubglas is the 2nd battle site (of 9) where the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th battles (of 12) were fought. The ND lists 9 Saxon Shore forts. 8 of the 9 HB battle sites match 8 of the 9 ND SS forts all in order going around the coast from the north-east to the south-west, plus one HB battle site Celidon matches an inserted site between the 2nd/3rd & 3rd/4th ND/SS sites, and so all 9 battle sites match 9 SS sites all in order. Only the first ND SS fort is excluded, having no HB battle site match. Counting the SS forts in order going around the coast from the Wash to the Solent the site Othona/Bradwell is 3rd of 9 ND forts including the 1st fort Branodunum, but 2nd of 8+1 SS sites excluding unmatched 1st ND fort Branodunum. So Arthur's battle site Dubglas and our site Othona/Bradwell are both number 2nd of 9 sites which all match in order. Some critics make a big deal that the match is not perfect, but one can not easily dismiss that 9 sites of both lists almost perfectly match all in order. What are the probability chances/odds that 9 sites match all in almost perfect order? The minor cross-switch match of the (3rd & 4th, and the) 5th & 6th sites is confirmed/proven in some other matching lists such as the 9 Pa Gur battles sites. See the numbers/order match in the following table (excluding names/meanings matches info) : 9 HB battle sites -- 9 ND SS sites -- 9 PG battles 0 n.a. -- 1/[0] Branodunum/Brancaster -- 0 n.a. 1 Glein -- 2/[1] Gariannonum/Burgh -- 1 Tribruit 2/2-5 Dubglas -- 3/[2] Othona/Bradwell -- 2 Eidyn 3/6 Bassas -- 4/[3] Regulbium/Reculver -- 4 Afarnach 4/7 Celidon -- [3/4] Kit's Coty/Coldrum/Weald -- 3 Celli 5/8 Guinnion 6 Dubris/Dover -- 6 Eidyn 6/9 Legionis -- 5 Rutupi/Richborough -- 5 Dissethach 7/10 Tribruit -- 7 Lemanis/Stutfall/Lympne -- 7 Tribruit 8/11 Agned/Bregion -- 8 Anderida/Pevensey -- 8 Ystawinguin 9/12 Badon -- 9 Adurni/Portchester -- 9 Mon/"Anglesey". The detail that 4 battles were fought at the same Dubglas/Linnuis site may also well match with our site's area in which are the major important sites of Colchester, Maldon, and London. Dubglas is in a triad of rivers in the HB battle-list (Glein, Dubglas, & Bassas). The first 3 ND SS forts are all at navigible rivers: Brancaster, Gariannonum/Burgh, & Othona/Bradwell. Excluding 1st fort Brancaster which doesnt match an HB battlesite, the first 3 ND SS sites which match the first 3 HB battlesites were all at mouths of rivers (Gariannonum/Burgh, Othona/Bradwell, Regulbium/Reculver). Jacqueta Hawkes says Reculver was more like Brancaster than the other Kentish forts. In the HB & PG the battle site Dubglas/Eidyn is near Glein/Tribruit and Celidon/Celli and/or Bassas/Afarnach. Our site Othona/Bradwell (Dubglas/Eidyn) is near Gariannonum/Burgh (Glein/Tribruit) and Aylesford/Weald (Celidon/Celli) and Reculver (Bassas/Afarnach).
Dubglas meaning match: The name Dubglas/Duglas/Dulas/Douglas/Dowlas/Diggles is considered to mean either/both "(from the) black/dark stream/water" and/or "dark blue, blue black, dark grey (man)", or dubhglas "blackness", with the component element words being dubh/dhu/du "black, dark" or dubno/domun/dufn/dwfn "deep" (or dubno "world"), and glaise/glas/las "grey, green, blue, woad, tawny, pale" or glass "a small stream" or glas "a common river designation among the Celtic people in Great Britain". (In the case of Glastonbury glas is also confouned with glass. Some sources say glas and vras were also connected with each other.) It has been suggested that there is a subtly implied contrast between the 1st and 2nd battle sites Glein "clean/clear" and Dubglas "black/dark". At our site and/or in our site's area we have candidate matches for the meaning of Dubglas of either: - Our site is on the river Blackwater in Essex. The river Blackwater in south Ireland is also in an analogous/similar s.w. coast position of the island to our site's river in Essex in England/Britain. - The river the river Eiduman(n)ia/Eid(o)umani(o)s in Ptolemy and the Ravenna cosmography is considered by some scholars to contain the element du/dubh "black". - The place name(s) Witham (and/or Wickham) in our site's river's area might be analogously connected with the Witham in Lincoln which has been called "that unhealthy looking sluggish, greenish river"? - The "numerous lakes, ponds, boggy areas, willow swamp" of the Mid-Essex Coast. Compare that some have claimed that Dubglas could match the "marshy lands and pools" of the "unhealthy looking sluggish, greenish" river Witham and "... waterways flowing off the muddy peat moors" in Lincolnshire "peat land". (Not sure if the Pant/Pent previous name of the Blackwater might also be connected with the name fens?) - The river Thames estuary. The name Thames is considered by some to be from a word meaning "darkness, dark, dark grey, muddiness, dark river". - Black Deep(s) channel 1387 in outer Thames mouth estuary? - "Black gentiles" name given to Danes in Maldon area? - "Black kerchief Dick" 1923 connected with the area in later history? - Byrhtnoth "bright courage" who fought at Maldon has a name meaning which is like the opposite of Dubglas "blackness"? - Lindsey was criticised for "lack lustre" against Danes in the time of the battle of Maldon. - Othona/Ythancester is described as "the town is now submerged" which could possibly match dubno "deep"? - The shipwreck and/or the stakes/pikes in the Thames mouth in Caesar's invasion?
Dubglas name match: Although we have a meaning match, people insist that the site also has to have a name match as well if the site is right, which seems reasonable since the HB says the river is "called" (vocatur/dicitur) Dubglas. We do have candidate matches for the name Dubglas at our site or in our site's area, though we are not totally certain which one is right: - The river Eidumannia is considered by some scholars to contain the element du/dubh "black" or dubno/domun/dufn/dwfn "deep". This river's name is also very similar to Dumannios "darkest depths" in the Coligny calendar. Sources say that this river Eidumania is either the Blackwater &/or Colne, or the Crouch &/or Roach, or the Stour &/or Orwell, with most sources seeming to favour the Blackwater. Some scholars have said that the name Eidumania is "possibly Latinisation of Widma/Withma/Witham/Withmaney". There is a town Witham in the area of the river Blackwater and our site. Dubglas is a flumen "river" in the HB, like the Eidumanis is a fluvium/fluvii "river" in Ptolemy and the Ravenna Cosmography. - The previous name of the river Blackwater in the times of Bede and the battle of Maldon was the Pant(e)/Pent(a)e which might possibly be connected with the name Pontulas/Pontdulas? Quite a few scholars believe the river ancient Eidumania was the Blackwater, and we have seen that the former may bear the element dub "black". In the HB, the Dubglas battle site is described as being "super (aliud) flumen ... Dubglas", or "above / on the river Dubglas". In Bede and other sources our site Othona is described as "civitas Stancaster (Ithancester) stetit super ripam rivoir de Pante currentis per Maldunum", "locus est sed (etiam) in ripa Pent(a)e amnis", "(is situated) on the shore/bank(s) of the (river) Pant(e)", "Othona, on the Blackwater, formerly called the Pant". - Othona is next to Dubris in the Notita Dignitatum. - Dengie Marshes in our site's area? Dubglas has been connected by some with Dunglas in Lothian. The Duglas of treaty of Cadwallon & Edwin in the HRB seemingly corresponds with Denis's-brook/Denises-burn(e) & Devilis/Dubglas 633 in Bede. Dengie is maybe similar to Dunglas and/or Denises/Denis's. L & n, and n & v sometimes interchange in ancient British/Welsh. Though it is admittedly doubtful that Dengie could be a corruption of Du(b)glas, because Dengie appears in early records as Danesia/Daenningas and is supposed to be named from the Danes in the Maldon area. - Diggle Hayward 1963 connected with the area in later history? - Dubnovellaunus of the Trinovantes, 10-5 bc? The Trinovantes were in the Essex area (which area our site is in). The name Dubnovellaunus is connected with dubno "world", like Dubglas is connected with dubno "deep". (Note that Dyfnwal/Dunwallo is the 2nd in the HRB like Dubglas is 2nd.) - Togodumnus of the Catuvellauni who died after a battle on the Thames, and losses in marshes of Essex, in the invasion of Claudius? (M & b interchange in British.) - Dolobellus &/or Mandubracius of the Trinovantes in Caesar's invasion in the Thames river/mouth/estuary area? - Doggerland? - Duroliw in the Peutinger map? (Durolito/Durolitum in Antonine Itinerary.) - Dub-glas could possibly be a pun on Divus Claudius of Colchester, or Claudius Augustus in the Arch of Claudius? (Perhaps compare Vindogladia/Vindocladia, Clanoventa/Glannoventa? Note that Dubglas the 2nd of 9 HB battle sites would correspond to Claudius the 2nd of 9 Emperors in the HB?) - Douglas in the Isle of Man is also in an analogous/similar s.w. coast position of the island to our site's river in Essex in England/Britain. Higden's Dubglas was near Mersee and Wigan, and there are a Mersea and a Witham or Wickham in our site's river's area.
"Dunglas formed the southern border of Lothian" (OEC). Duglas site of the treaty between Cadwallon and Edwin (HRB). Higden's Dubglas site is near Mersey which place's name means "boundary river". "Mersey formed the old county boundary between Cheshire and Lancashire, and originally that between the kingdoms of Mercia and Northumbria". "Mersey was undoubtedly the boundary on the West between the Roman provinces of Maxima and Flavia" 2nd battlesite in PaGur is "Eidyn on the border" & matches our Dubglas/Othona battlesite. The name of the Limen fortenses at our site Othona may be from limen/limes/limit/liminaris "threshold, frontier, limit, boundary, borderland"? (St Peter on the Wall church at our Dubglas site?) Medway suggested by some to mean "mid way" between the Kentishmen and the men of Kent. Mercredesburne means "river of the frontier agreed by treaty".
"Dunglas formed the southern border of Lothian (Lot/Lodonesia)". Our Dubglas site is in the region of London (Lot/Londonesia).
Mersey near Higden's Dubglas site. Lindsey & Merswarum "Marshlanders" & East Anglia 838/839 (Ethelwerd) Mersea in our Dubglas site's local area (name supposed to mean "island of the pool"). "Limnean port" & London & Meresige/Mersey 893/895 (Ethelwerd) Merscwari "inhabitants of Romney, Kent" 796 in Ethelwerd. Mercredesburne was in the south-east.
Linnuis meaning match: The 2nd battle site Dubglas is said to be in a region Linnuis. Linguists assert that the name (regione) Linnuis is probably from Llynwys which is the equivalent of *Lindensis/*Lindenses/*Lindensia in Roman Latin and means "(the men/inhabitants of) (the region/land/district of) Lindum/Lincoln", with the equivalent elements regione/uis/wys/enses meaning "(always refers to) regions and/or their inhabitants". Investigating further we find that the name Lindum/Lincoln is considered to come from the root word llyn/linn "(a deep) pool, lake, waterfall", which word is also used in the Y Gododin in connection with "effusion of blood" and "pools of blood", though some sources alternatively suggest that Lindum could be from lind "lime tree". Furthermore, Evans claimed that Linn is also not used for coastal areas, though this is not necessarily true because there seemingly are cases where it was used for places near coasts (eg King's Lynn was a port). So although critics assert that Linnuis can only mean "inhabitants of/or region of proper place name Lindum", the name can ultimately mean "inhabitants of/or region of pool(s)". This ultimate meaning is demonstrated by that toponomists say that in case of Lindum/Lincoln the given name's meaning seemingly refers to "the marshy lands and pools of the river" and "... waterways flowing off the muddy peat moors". In the area of our battle site candidate Othona/Bradwell/Maldon in Essex we see very good possible matches for the Linnuis name's ultimate meaning "(inhabitants of) region of pool(s)", eg: - "Five Lakes near the coastal town of Maldon", "60 acres of beautiful parkland and lakes". - "The Mid-Essex Coast Special Protection Area is of International importance as a wetland ..... means over millions of years, resulting in a landscape where lakes or ponds tend ...", "consisting of numerous lakes, ponds, boggy areas, willow swamp, scrub and...." - Mersea means "island of the pool". - London might come from lan "lake". - Lagheforda (Langford near Maldon)? - I'm not sure if the Pant/Pent original name of the Blackwater/Froshwell river could be connected with the word pond or fens? (Compare the "pool of Pant" in ancient Greek/Egyptian.) - Bradwell? Froshwell? Pantswell? - Dengie Marshes? Merswarum "Marshlanders" & East Anglia 838/839 in Ethelwerd?
Linnuis name match: Although our site has an excellent match with the meanings of Dubglas and Linnuis, critics and sceptics insist that they are not satisified unless we also show a region Linnuis name match as well, and so it is necessary to answer this challenge. Before we give our own site's candidate match(es) we must first dispute the commonly asserted Lindsey/Lincoln candidate. Many scholars seem to imply that Lindsey/Lincoln is the only one possible match for Linnuis/Lindenses in Britain. However, some scholars admit that there are actually some other British place names that they agree to contain the same believed root word llyn/linn, eg: Dublin, Lindum (Innerleithen), Lindum (Drumquhassle), Lynwyssawr (Gododin), Lindisfarne "Lindsey travellers/wayfarers" (or ware "dwellers"), Linton (on the Ouse, a few miles from York), Lindon/Lindum or Lincoln/Lindocolinum "Lindon/Lindum colony" or Lindsey/Lindesia/Lindisia/Lindisse "Lincoln/Lindensia island" (Coritani), King's Lynn (Norfolk), Linda/Lenda (Ouse, Bedford), Lynn Liuan ("Severn"), Lindum/Lindinis (Ilchester, Damnoni, Devon). Now for our own Dubglas/Linnuis location candidate Othona/Bradwell/Maldon we have a number of possible Linnuis/Lindum name matches in our site's area, though we are not totally sure which one is right and so we will give all the main possibilities: - Lindsell/Lyndesele/Lindeseles/Lindezel, and Linford in Essex, and Linford road in East Tilbury. Lindney in our site's area? (Though i am not sure how near or far away they are to/from our site, or what the believed etymologies of the names are.) - Lindsey in Suffolk is not far away from our site's area. (Though it has a different claimed etymology of "Lelli's island".) Lindsey & Merswarum/Marshlanders & East Anglia 838/839? Lindsey & East Anglia 1016? - Lindsey was criticised for lack lustre against Danes in the time of the battle of Maldon (nearby our site in Essex). - "Cedd travelled south from Lindisfarne" to Ythancester (Othona) in Essex. In Bede there is a church of Peter in Lindisfarne, while at our site there is the church St Peter on the Wall. Plus, "when the monks fled from Lindisfarne before the Danes" is also similar to Danes at the battle of Maldon and Dengie nearby our site? - Durolito/Durolitum "Chigwell, near Romford/Rumford, Greater London?" in the Antonine Itinerary is maybe similar to Lindum? (Though it is Durosito in Richard of Cirencester.) - Nicolas of Witham? (In some literature Lincoln & Nicolas are confounded. Plus n & l also interchange in British. The later Arthurian "Lindocolinum" versions of Linnuis might be from a confounding with Colne/Colonia/Colchester?) - The Lindsays in Firth of Forth area are maybe invertedly analogous to our site in the south. Dublin in Ireland is maybe analogous to our Linnuis/London site. - London is not far from our site, and our site can be considered to be in the wider region of London. Linnuis as a strategically important site of 4 battles between the Britons and Saxons is more likely to match London (and Colchester and Maldon) than Lincoln. London is also similar to Dublin which is similar to Dubglas/Dunglas & Linnuis. In the ASC one of the only few candidates for matching the battle of Dubglas/Linnuis is Crecganford & "London" 457, and the ASC's description of the Britons retreating to "London" might match 4 battles at Linnuis. The Antonine Itinerary has "regno Londinio", which is abit like regio Linnuis? London is also next to Lincoln as "Londinio Lindo" in the same itinerary. Sources say that the origin of London's name is uncertain/unknown. One of the suggested origins of the name London is from lan "lake", and in older sources it is said that "London is commonly derived from two Celtic words -- llyn, din/dyn -- meaning 'the lake fort'", which is the exact same root word that Linnuis is also believed to be from.
Some versions of the name London are also similar to some versions of the name Linnuis, and either/both are similar to names in some other Dubglas/Linnuis location candidates theories, as seen in this list/table:
Lindas/Lindais (Irish annals 622, Arthurnet posters) Lindum &/or Loch Lomond (Drumquhassle/Lennox) (Mintz) Laudonia/Lodonia / Lo(n)donesia / Lodene/Lothene / Lothian/Lothians (Dunglas) (OEC, VR) Lune/Lancaster (Douglas/Wigan/Mersee) (Higden) Lindum/Lindon/Lindo / Lindis / Lindores / Lindsey/Lindisse / Lindesia/Lindisia / Lincoln & Lindisfaras / Lindisfarne, from llyn "water, lake, pool, marsh, fenland" (HRB, Jackson) Linda/Lenda (Ouse, Bedford) Lu(n)danbyrig &/or Limen fortenses (Othona) London/Londin/Lunden / Llundein/Lundein/Londein / Landini/Londene/Lundene/Londini/Lundone / Lundenne / Londonia/Lundonia/Londinio / Londinum/Londinos / Lundoniae / Londinium/Lundinium / *Lowonidonjon / Lundenisc / Lo(n)donesia / Lundoniensis / Lundenbyr(i)g / Lundenwaru / Lundenwic/Lundewic / Londres / Kaerlud, from plow or lan or llyn-dyn/llyn-din "lake fort" or lon "hill" or llwyn "wood" or londo "wild, fierce" or *lendh- "sink" and/or *-injo-/-onjo- "used to form place names" Loddon/Lodden (Blackwater by Calleva & Basingstoke/Old Basing) (Hunt) Lyndhurst (Blackwater, Netley/Charford, Southampton) (Bullen) Lindinis / Lindum/Lindon (Divelish/Devil's Brook, Ilchester, Damononia) Lodwicus / Lidwiccas / Lidwiccium/Letewicion / Letavia, from litus "coast, shore, a land reached by boats" (Armorica/Brittany) "Lidinin the king who ruled all of Great Britain" identified with Lewdwn/Leuddun/Leudonis Lwydawc &/or with Loth of Lodonesia (Vita Gurthiern) *Lindenses/*Lindensis / *Lindensia / Linnuis/Llynwys, from *Lindon/*Lindum, from llyn "pool, lake" & uis/wys/enses "inhabitants of region" (HB) Kaerlindcoit/Kaerluidcoit/Kaerloitcoit (HRB) Clydwyn (Gwallawg's battles) (Taliesin) Lydanwyn (Hen Ogledd).
One can not only see that the names are similar but also the elements at the beginning and end in some of them are similar, eg: llyn/linn/lan/lindo/lindis same root word in Linnuis & Lincoln & London. Lindum/Lindon & London/Llyndyn. Lindores & Londres? uis/enses & injo/onjo? Lindenses & Limen fortenses? Lu(n)denbyrig & Lundenbyrig. Lodonesia & Londonesia (& Lindesia?) londo & lindo? Lindisfaras/Lindisfarne & Lundenwaru? Linnuis/Llynwys & Lunde(n)wic/Lundenisc & Lidwiccas/Lodwicus? Lindenses & Lundoniensis/Lundenisc/Lo(n)donesia (& Lindesia?) London & Loddon/Lodden & Lewdwn/Leuddun? London & Lomond (transposition)? Lindinis & Lidinin? Lidinin ruled all Britain & London/llynyn capital of Britain? Kaerluidcoit & Kaerlud?
- Lu(n)danbyrig was a name of Othona and it is possibly similar to Kaerlindcoit/Kaerluidcoit of the HRB, and to Linnuis/Lindenses. The Lundenbyrig of 457 entry of the ASC might be either/both London and/or Lu(n)danbyrig/Othona. Perhaps compare Ludanbyrig and/or Lundenbyrig with Lodonesia and/or Londonesia in Arthurian traditional sources. - Langford near Maldon. (Though this candidate is unlikely since it is supposed to be from Lagheforda.) - 'Limen Fortenses' were at Othona SS fort. Limeni connected with Norfolk/Iceni. "Limnean port" & London & Meresige/Mersey in 893? Limnae a town of the Angles in 895 in Ethelwerd? (There is also a Limbourne and Limebrook and Limehouse in the Bradwell/Maldon/Colchester area.) Some other scholars like Collingwood have previously thought that Linnuis was connected with the related name Lemanis/Lympne. (Othona is also near Lemanis is the ND, and the 2 areas also have some analogous geographical similarities.) Jackson claimed that the name(s) can't be related to Linnuis, but perhaps compare that linn/llyn "pool, lake", and limno "fresh water", limne "lake, marsh", and/or liman "estuary" are pretty similar words-wise and meanings-wise. (Maybe also/alternatively compare llwyn "grove", lind "lime tree", and limene "elm tree"? Also, the word regione/uis/wys/enses is maybe similar to limen/limes/limit/liminaris "threshold, frontier, limit, boundary, borderland" or limitanei "border forces"?) At the least, no one can deny that Limen Fortenses and Lindenses have the same -enses element anyway. - Imensa river near the Thames in [Ptolemy?], which is maybe similar to the Arthurian "region ... between Tamar & Limar", and the "region called Iris/Inn", and the Inniis variant spelling of Linnuis, and/or the enses element of Lindenses, and similar to the Limen fortenses at Othona as well? - The words "(and is) in regione Linnuis" are not in all versions of the 12 battles section of the HB, and some say they are only in the "expanded version", so the words might only be a later gloss and not in the original source?
Saxons in our site's area: Arthur fought Saxons (and "specifically Kentishmen") and as such he had to be close to where Saxons were, and he cant have fought in places where they were not (then). "Arthur was fighting "Saxons" (as Nennius clearly shows, and specifically the Kentish men) and there were none near Chester or in the North in Arthur's time...." "... how Arthur could have fought Saxons in Perthshire and Wales, where no Saxons ever were, is beyond conjecture." "Yet the battles have been located in districts as far apart as the lowlands of Scotland and the south-west of England. There were certainly no Saxons in the latter region until long after this date...." At the estimated time of Arthur's battles the Anglo-Saxons were mainly limited to the south-east quarter of England/Britain roughly bounded by a line drawn from the Wash to the Solent (refs Sayles, etc). "There is no evidence from the 6th century to suggest that Saxon settlement had expanded further north than the southern one-quarter of the island." The HB and the HRB imply that the Saxons kept coming over to Britain during Arthur's battles. The Saxons came from the East not the West. The Saxon Shore is called that for similar reasons. The 9 SS forts of the ND are all between the Wash and the Solent. "c 460 Saxon victories in the ASC largely confined to coastal areas." "488-547 only landings of Saxons on the coast" (ASC, Evans). "Saxons take 57 yrs to advance 25 miles" 495-552 (Evans). Arthur's battles were before/until Ida in the HB, which rules-out Northumbria because Ida was amongst the first earliest Northumbrian invaders. In the HRB it is said that Hengist (and Octa) were at Linnuis where the battle site of Arthur later also was. Hengist and Octa were more likely closer to Kent than further away from Kent. (Hengist might actually even be identified with Constantine in the HRB, and Constantines battles against the "Scots & Picts" might match the first battles of "Arthur" Glein and Dubglas in the HB.)
Arthur/Britons in our site's area: Arthur fought Saxons and as such he had to be close to where Saxons were. Some sources even imply that Arthur drove the Saxons out of the island/land. A few prominent scholars have also said that the HB words seem to imply Arthur fought "specifically Kentishmen". There was a major salient or gap of Britons in the south-east in the Colchester-London-St Alban's area. Some sources give evidence for fairly late presence of Britons at sites like Colchester and Walton. Some also suggest that Sutton Hoo has British elements (eg helmet figure similar to the Long Man). It has been said that the Fens were a refuge for Britons. The Britons/Welsh were not limited to Cornwall, Wales and the North until after the battles of Dyrham and Chester in old orthodox sources. "The Britons ... retire into Cornwall and Wales" (HRB 11:10). "Wurdesten speaks of the Britons leaving their ancestral land when the Saxons occupied it". Gildas says "neither to this day are our cities inhabited ... forsaken & overthrown". "Cadfan acquires all Britain on this side of the Humber, Ethelfrid the rest" (HRB). "The dolichocephali, or long-skulled type of men, who, in part, preceded the English, "have been found abundantly in the Suffolk region of the Littus Saxonicum, where the Celt and Saxon [Englishman] are not known to have met as enemies when East Anglia became a kingdom." Primary candidates for who Arthur was include Vortimer and Ethelbert who were both in the south-east. There is a place called Great Bardfield near our Dubglas battlesite.
Evidences for battles fought there then: - The fort and visible possible traces of battle(s) there? - Great Bardfield might relate to a battle there once? - Witham might mean "(from) battlefield, war"? - The later battle of Maldon was fought nearabouts and so it shows that this is a strategic area (in those times) that is quite possibly a likely location for the similar battle of Dubglas. [- Battlesbridge?]
Othona/Ythancester possibly appears in Arthurian traditional sources as either: Odnea of Caesar (HRB)? Caer Odor built by Dunwallo Moelmud (24 kings & 33 cities document)? Hodnant (12 Monasteries)? 'hodie Lincolnia' "today (called) Lincoln"? Thancaster of Hengist in Lindsey (HRB)? "Sidnaceester, Lindsey"? Eidyn (PaGur, Gododin, Taliesin)?
Reference list of the main hitherto Dubglas location candidates (or analogous namesakes) theories: Dublin, Ireland (Domnhall, Bambrough) Blackwater, south Ireland (Bambrough) Douglas, Isle of Man (Bambrough) not in midlands (Anscombe, Jackson) Denis's-brook/Denises-burn(e)/Devilis/Duglas (Bede, HRB, Bambrough) Blackrode, Manchester? (Whitaker) Mersey/Douglas, near Wigan, Cheshire/Lancashire (Higden, Anscombe, Faral, Whitaker, ...) Douglas in terrain around Ribchester toward Manchester (Malcor) Black Lyne (Holden) near Caledon wood (Thompson, HRB) Douglas (Water), Glenbuck near Muirkirk in Ayrshire, Tinto hill, Clyde not far from Lanark, 770 (McHardy) Douglas, Leven/Lennox/Lomond (Skene, Lot, Wiki, McHardy, Calebxy) Drumquhassle/Lindum/Lennox (near Loch Lomond, Ptolemy) (Mintz) Dunglas, Lothian (OEC) Devil's Water at Linnels (near Corbidge, on Hadrian's Wall) (Hunt) Witham or Ancholme, Lincolnshire (Anscombe, Johnstone, Crawford, Lloyd, Jackson, HRB, theelf, P Graham, historyfiles) East (O'Toole, Fields, Brynjulfson) Deben, Suffolk (Bambrough) Eidumania, Essex or Suffolk (Bambrough) Blackwater/Froshwell/Pant, Essex (Bambrough, Hunt, Aspin) Devil's Dyke (Bambrough) Thames "dark river" (Evans, Bambrough) Blackwall, London (Bambrough) Darent/Dart/Derwent "white water" &/or Cray 457 (Bambrough) Le Black / Kent Water (Collingwood) Medway "mead coloured way/Wye" (Evans) Dubissum pagus "in Kent?" Duroleuo/Durolaui/Durolevum, Ospringe/Sittingbourne Dubris/Dover, Kent (Bambrough) Dungeness Dowels, near Battle Hill & Kenardington between Appledore & Warehorne / Orlestone Forest (theelf/Arcus) Blackwater/Lyndhurst/Netley/Charford, Southampton) (Bullen) Blackwater/Loddon, by Calleva & Basingstoke/Old Basing/Lodden (Hunt) Divelish/Devil'sBrook/Lindinis/Lindum/Lindon, Ilchester, Damononia Pontdulas. gloss (O'Toole) no claims / vague / open to conjecture / problematic (Crawford, Johnstone, Jackson, Cooper/Brewer's, White, Brynjulfson)
Reference list of the main hitherto Linnuis/Inniis location candidates (or analogous namesakes) theories: Dublin (Domnhall, Bambrough) cath/bellum Lindas/Lindais 622 (Arthurnet posters) not in midlands (Anscombe, Jackson) Legionenses/Chester (Anscombe) Lancaster (Higden, Anscombe, Faral, Whitaker, ...) Lake District Othlyn (Holden, Bambrough) Black Lyne (Holden) near Caledon wood (Thompson, HRB) Lennox/Lomond (Wiki, Skene, Lot, Wiki, McHardy, Calebxy, Mintz) Lindsays, Scotland (Bambrough) Lynwyssawr at Catraeth 570 (an Arthurnet poster) Lindisfarne (Crawford) Linton (an Arthurnet poster) Lindsey/Lincoln (Anscombe, Johnstone, Crawford, Lloyd, Jackson, HRB, theelf, P Graham, historyfiles) Linda/Lenda, Ouse, Bedford Stoke Lyne, Bedford/Buckingham (Bambrough, ...) East (O'Toole, Fields, Brynjulfson) Kings Lynn (Bambrough) Limen Fortenses, Lu(n)danbyrig/Othona Imensa (Bambrough) London (Bambrough) Lympne/Lemanis (Collingwood) Lyndhurst/Netley/Charford, Southampton) (Bullen) Limar (Bambrough). Lidwiccas/Letavia/Lydaw 910 gloss (O'Toole) no claims / vague / open to conjecture / problematic (Crawford, Johnstone, Jackson, Cooper/Brewer's, White, Brynjulfson)
Source texts that mention the battle site Dubglas by that name: HB, LF, HRB, Higden, Ywenec, Bede?
Source texts that mention Linnuis or Kaerlindcoit by that name: HB, HRB, Gododin? Irish Annals? The History of Gruffydd ap Cynan? Ptolemy?
Source texts that mention Othona/Ludanbyrig/Bradwell include: the ND, EH of Bede.
Dubglas/Othona battlesite tentative literal or analogous correspondences in various sources under a few different names for the same site: Othona/Bradwell/Maldon 3rd/[2nd] of 9 (ND/SS, EH) Odnea of Caesar (HRB)? Thancastre of Hengist in Linnuis (HRB)? Eidyn 2nd of 7/9 battles/sites (PG) St Endelion/Endelient 2nd of 15 children of Brychan Etelic/Etelicchion 2nd of 10 sons of Glywys (Sts Lives)? Caer Oeth & Anoeth 1st 3 of 3 x 3 prisons? "Thanet" or Derquentid 0/1st/2nd of 3/4 battles of Vortimer (HB/HRB)? Caer Odor built by Dunwallo Moelmud 2nd of 11 (HRB/OEC)? Dubglas/Linnuis 2nd/2nd-5th of 9/12 sites/battles (HB, LF) Dumannios "darkest depths" nov/dec of 12 months (Coligny calendar) St Antony, Black Castle # of 7 champions? Clavdio Avgusto or ..., 1st or ... of 11 kings (Arch of Claudius)? Claudius 2nd of 7/9 emperors (HB)? Crecganford/London 457 or Mercredsburn 485 # of # battles (ASC)? Maritime 1st of 3 churches of Padarn (Sts Lives)? Malo # of 7 saints of Brittany? Mauron of Worcester 2nd of 11 consuls (HRB)? Maw & Eiddyn / Clydwyn [2nd] of [8] battles of Gwallawg (Taliesin) Martrun or Hodnant 2nd or 1st of 12 Monasteries Elidyr Lydanwyn 2nd of 12 men of the north (Hen Ogled)?
