Dear friends!!!

I want to open discussion on the topic which is related to our joint history and current situation. As you probably don't know, there are two Azerbaijan in the world. The first one is Azerbaijan Republic which was became independet from russian rule in 1991 and the second is South Azerbaijan which is still under farsi shovinistic domination. The history of azeri nation and Azerbaijan land is tragic from one side and glorius from anouther. Most of you even don't know that during more than 500 years Iran was ruled by azeri-turk dinasties of Sefevids and Qajars. The founder of Sefevids dinasty Shah Ismal Xatai I of Sefevid was one of the greates lider in azeri and persian history. He was born in Azerbaijan and his azeri-trkish tribe became a ruler family in the whole azeri-persian state. In actual fact he was a person who at the first time unified South Azerbaijan and North Azerbaijan under one big Sefevid Empire. It was a trully turkic empire, because the ruler dinasty was tukish, armya forces were ruled and consists of turkish kizilbash tribe and the whole art and aristokratic elit were also consists of azeri-turks.

After hundread of years of Sefevid's rule, there was a time when Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar become a ruler of Empire. He was a founder of one of the greatest azeri-turk dinasty - Qajars. Since the beginnings of Qajar's rule, the borders of empire were become wider and wider. He is a person who destroyed his anemys and created a huge state. Qajars created a brilliant art and cultural background of azeri and pars nations. The famous Qajar art-painting school was one of the greates in the world. In present dayas, the Qajar paintings are located in major world museums. There is a few perfect Qajar paintings in Baku art museum as wellas in many Qajar families in Azerbaijan. The importancy of Qjars in Azerbaijan history is, that the many princes and khans of Qajar family were rulers of azeri khanats and provinces both in north and south of Azerbaijan.

For many years, and especially after pars general Pexlevi became a shah in Iran, the tru history of Iran and of course Azerbaijan was not available to many people in the world. The tirany of Pexlevi pars family were widely spreaded against 20 million azeriturks in South Azerbaijan. But azeri people always dreamed their independence or at least cultural autonomy in Iran. There were many attempts for independence by azeri people in Iran during 20th century. The major two attempts are:the movement  in 1918-1920 lead by Hiya bani and the second is liberations movement is 1943-1947 lead by Sayiid Jafar Pishevari who with help of soviet Azerbaijan could create an Independent Demokratic Republic of South of Azerbaijan. See picture of the first President of Demokratic Republic of South Azerbaijan - Mr.Pishevari.

There is a strong desiry of azeri young people in South Azerbaijan to gain independece and unified with their brothers in North. They want to make it piecefully and basis on agreement with pars nation.  The below picture was made last year in South Azerbaijan where about 2 million of azeries from South Azerbaijan and from North Azerbaijan came to comemorate the one of the greatest son of azeri nation - Babek. The documentary movie of this event was showed in Azeri TV in Baku and also in our communities around the world. Our brothers put our azerbaijani flag in the top of Babek gala.

I am sure that one day azeri-turks from both side of Araks rivew will be together and will create one state. And unified Azerbaijan will finally have a long land border with our turk brothers in Mother Turkey.

"I am proud to be turk" Ataturk

The Azerbaijan Question in Iran: A Crucial Issue For Iran's Future

by Dr. Nasib Nasibzade

 

[also published in the Caspian Crossroads magazine, Winter 1998]

 

Iran is a multinational country, composed of Persians, Azerbaijanis(Azerbaijani Turks), Kurds, Turkmens, Arabs, Baluchies and others. The Turkic origin Azerbaijanis in Iran are being discriminated against by the Iranian regime. This problem is further exaggerated by the fact that, the Azerbaijanis are themselves a divided nation, separated by the borders of Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan. These two circumstances have combined to pose an Azerba ijan dilemma.

 

The History of the Problem

 

In the early nineteenth century the Russian Empire occupied the khanates of North Azerbaijan, which were de jure a part of Qajar Iran, but de facto were independent. Despite the close relations between North and Sout h Azerbaijan until the 1930s, these two parts of Azerbaijan have historically developed in separate ways: the division occurred at a time when national self-consciousness amongst Azerbaijanis was not strong enough. It played an essential role in creating distinctions between South and North Azerbaijan.

The inclusion of North Azerbaijan into the Russian Empire-and consequently the cultural differences between Russians and Azerbaijanis-played a significant role in the appearance of self-awareness of Azerbaijanis. These differences have been expressed in language, religion, mentality, customs and historical roots. On the other hand, Northern Azerbaijan had been turned into a Russian colony in terms of tight control over its fiscal systems, exploitation of oil and other natural resources. Because of the fear of religious and ethnic affinity with the Ottoman Turks, Russia established special rule over North Azerbaijan, including repression of any sign of national movements. Despite this repression, the national movement in North Azerbaijan began earlier than in South Azerbaijan. The national movement in North Azerbaijan went through three evolutionary stages:

1. Demand for cultural autonomy (1905-1917).

2. Demand for national-territorial autonomy (1917-1918).

3. Struggle for national independence (since 1918).

 

Consequently, the creation of the independent Azerbaijan Democratic Republic in 1918, in Northern Azerbaijan formally symbolized the existence of Azerbaijanis as a separate nation.

During this period in South Azerbaijan several factors combined to ensure that a different course of events would transpire. The historical past, religious unity in terms of Shiism, cultural closeness, historical traditions of Persian l anguage and literature, and other related factors between Azerbaijanis and Persians slowed the development of the Azerbaijani national movement in Iran. At the same time, the permanent threat from Russia (Tsarist and Soviet) was an important factor that i nfluenced Azerbaijanis to put aside their national aspirations. For this reason, when Russian aggression against Iran at the end of the 19th and early 20th Centuries grew in its intensity, the main theorists of Pan-Iranism appeared to be of Persian as wel l as of Azerbaijani origin, such as Kasravi, Kazemzade, and Rezazade.

It is important to point here that for a long time during the Qajar and Pahlavi monarchies in Iran, and even in the present Islamic regime, there were and continue to be many ethnic Azerbaijanis, who carried substantial weight with the Iranian government. Those who joined the Iranian elite were tempted by the desire to have their social and economic needs met by the regime.

 

Azerbaijan in the Administrative and Demographic Structure of Iran

 

South Azerbaijan consists of Ardabil, East Azerbaijan, West Azerbaijan, Zenjan, Hamadan ostans (provinces), and the adjacent areas of Astara, Gazvin, and other ethnic territories. The size of these territories is est imated at approximately 170,000 sq. km. (the territory of North Azerbaijan is approximately 86,600 sq. km or roughly one third of the total area). Turks dominate by ethnic composition in the Azerbaijani provinces of Iran (more than 90% of the total popula tion).

It is difficult to determine the exact number of Azerbaijanis in Iran. Official statistics are not published detailing Iran's ethnic structure. According to our research, based on official statistics, indicate that the Azerbaijanis make up nearly 40% of the total population of Iran. This is 75% of all Azerbaijanis in the world.

Despite less territory and a smaller population, North Azerbaijan (Republic of Azerbaijan) is the political, ideological and cultural center of the Azerbaijani Turkish nation. However, the country's difficult geopolitical position has f orced Azerbaijan to look for allies in and out of the region. South Azerbaijan can be potentially the most faithful and strongest ally in the foreseeable future. The notion of a United Azerbaijan is very popular in the Republic of Azerbaijan.

 

Cultural Discrimination Policy

 

Persian chauvinism in Iran has hurt significantly the economic and social well being of South Azerbaijan. Chauvinism as a policy has been practiced implicitly by the Iranian regime and has targeted at its core the na tional culture of Azerbaijanis in South Azerbaijan. The Azerbaijani Turkish language had been removed from official use in all areas, including, schools, courts, government structures, and the army. Specific forms of Azerbaijani cultural expression are pr ohibited as well.

In the last parliamentary elections, Mr. Mahmud Chehregani, who ran on a platform of observing the 15th article of the constitution (that is on, using local languages for literature lessons in elementary schools), was elected in the fir st round of voting from Tabriz. His victory ended in a police interrogation, his torture and finally in arrest in Tehran.

 

National-Liberation Movement

 

The national-liberation movement of South Azerbaijan has a history going back 90 years. National-territorial autonomy demands were put before Iranian rulers during various movements-led by Sattarhan (1908-1909), Hiya bani (1920), Pishevari (1945-1946), Shariat-Madari (1979-1980). In their demands, they outlined various ways to resolve the pressing issues of nationality questions in Iran.

There are at least two factors that influence the current situation of the Azerbaijani national movement in Iran:

1. The rise of Azerbaijani Turkish national consciousness and diffusion of the national movement into a higher social strata.

2. The restoration of independent Azerbaijani statehood in the North.

 

Amongst Azerbaijanis in Iran there are three main viewpoints for dealing with the national problem of South Azerbaijan:

1. A group made up of religious, industrialists and bureaucrats, personalities who occupy a prominent position in the Iranian state, and their ideologists support the idea of a united Iran ("national Irano-centrists"). They strive to in crease the share of authority and capital within a single Iran. They support the notion of Turkisation of Iran. This group supports the idea of the unification of Iran with North Azerbaijan.

2. A group of intellectuals, industrialists and bureaucrats who fear the division of Iran and support the idea of granting South Azerbaijan (at the same time to other ethnic-national minorities) cultural or national-territorial autonomy , which is regarded by them as the optimal way of resolving the Azerbaijan problem. "Democracy to Iran, autonomy to Azerbaijan" is a very popular idea amongst this interest group.

3. The third group is represented by new political organizations and groups, which support the independence of South Azerbaijan and the idea of a United Azerbaijan. The appearance of these organizations signals the beginnings of a new s tage in developments related to the question of Azerbaijan in Iran. Those elements that are radical within these groups do not believe that the ethnic question in Iran can be resolved in an evolutionary manner. They believe that in order to achieve their national goals they should use all means possible, including military means if necessary.

The Iranian Government's Position

 

Any ethno-national issue in multi-ethnic Iran is one of the most important factors affecting the future of the country. Choosing the current form of government and its support is closely connected with the multinatio nal structure of Iran. The ideology of Pan-Iranism was hurt by the collapse of Shah's regime. Islam, as the centralizing ideology, became the main factor and brought the different nations together. The problem of non-Persian national minorities in Iran co incides with the problem of divided nations as well. The Iranian leadership deals with these problems by trying to involve representatives of ethnic groups and national minorities into government structures, but they do not make any concessions in the fie lds of language, culture or self-governance.

The sudden emergence of the independent Azerbaijan state in the North has caused many problems for the Iranian leadership. The mere existence of the Republic of Azerbaijan, above all, has had an important influence and impact on the nat ional movement in Iranian Azerbaijan.

The overall conclusion is that the future of Iranian statehood itself could be problematic. Part of the Iranian leadership, especially high-level politicians of Azerbaijani Turkish origin, support inclusion of the "ancient Iranian land, " i.e., the Republic of Azerbaijan into Iran. Most of the Iranian leadership, however, rejects such idea as unrealistic and undesirable. In their opinion, an increase in the Turkish elements in Iran and the politicization of the Azerbaijani population wil l cause additional concern for Persian nationalism.

Therefore, the current Iranian regime tries to bring the Republic of Azerbaijan into its political sphere of influence in an effort to eliminate the influence of the Republic of Azerbaijan on the Azerbaijani population of Iran. In so do ing, Iran is demonstrating the following political interests:

1. To prevent the formation of a truly independent and prosperous of the Republic of Azerbaijan and minimize its influence in South Azerbaijan, in order to insure the territorial integrity and internal stability of Iran.

2. To prevent the increase of US and Turkish influence in Azerbaijan and Central Asia.

3. To prevent integration of the Turkic world.

4. To gain strongholds in order to influence the Muslims of the Caucasus, Central Asia, and the Russian Volga region.

5. To have free access to Azerbaijan's market and natural resources.

6. In accordance with the official "export of Islamic revolution" doctrine, to create an Islamic, pro-Iranian regime in Azerbaijan.

Recently, there has been intensified ideological activity in Iran on the Azerbaijan question. The active propaganda on the "absence" of ethnic unity in both North and South Azerbaijan, the increased ideological struggle against Turkism and the Turkic world by official propaganda, the ignorance of existence of independent Azerbaijan by the people are all characteristic features of the official policy of Tehran. In addition, repressive measures and the police regime toward the Azerbaijani activists in Iran have also been increasing.

 

Conclusion

 

The resolution of ethnic problems in Iran, including the Azerbaijan problem, is closely related with democratization in Iran. In the near future and in the next political crisis in Iran, these ethnic issues will be o n the agenda. It should be noted that this topic played a role in the last presidential elections as well. The extent and intensity of the Azerbaijan question, that is, cultural autonomy, national-territorial autonomy or the demands for full independence will depend on the influence and integrity of ethnic forces, the extent of support for national ideals and finally, foreign factors.

Good Idea!!, IF the Azeris in northern Iran genuinely want to unite with Azerbaijan and it can be achieved peacefully.

 I don't think the near future of Iran is very bright anyway, because of the American intentions in the region.  For they are preparing for further sanctions and diplomatic isolation of Iranians.

But to think it would be unified peacefully, i am very pessimistic. I don't think the farsi will be that willing.

Wrong, Iran is under joint Azeri and Persian rule and has been for 800 years.  Iran's Intelligence service, the one that persecutes you is dominated by Azaris, Iran's head of state is Azari, Iran's Empress is Azari.  You should really learn some facts here.

Your kind are the chauvinists (you should learn to spell to if you are going to spread lies).

As for the myth of a north and south Azarbaijan:

I think Iran should fully suppoort the Talyshi Independence Movement of Azarbaijan, the Tatar chauvinists are trying to delete their history and language.  we should help them break free of ruthless tatar chauvinism and oppression!!!

Our brothers are dying in Talyshestan!!!  we must help them retake and restore the name and proud history of their land.

How does that sound? 

You have your tinpot republic, you should be happy, I don't think you should try to cause trouble in Iran or it may come right back to your door as it did in the early 90s, just ask Aliyev.

happy Norooz in one month by the way...

"Wrong, Iran is under joint Azeri and Persian rule and has been for 800 years.  Iran's Intelligence service, the one that persecutes you is dominated by Azaris, Iran's head of state is Azari, Iran's Empress is Azari.  You should really learn some facts here."

Ok. If you confirming that Iran under Azeri and Pars was ruled during last 800 years ( for more clarity. during last 650 years there was only one pars government during 60 years of Pexlevi period), so it  means that Iran is not pars country, it is azeri-turkish country???? ..So, azeri should became a dominant nation in Iran???? There are 40% of Iran's population are turks and in comparison with kurds, azeries were always very active part of population. Does tens od millions azeri turks in Iran right to educate their children in azeri language?...Does these people has any rights to produce and read newspapers and magasines in azeri?...Does they have an opportunity to see TV channels in azeri?..Does they have any chance to visit azeri theathre in Tebriz?..does thay have rights to express their desiry to have more close contacts with their relatives in North??

my answer is NO. what's why the majority of young people wants to be free and unified with their  brothers in North.

"Your kind are the chauvinists (you should learn to spell to if you are going to spread lies). "

Sorry for my english. It is not my first language. In actual fakt it is only fourth)))

Sorry again for any mistake.

Name of the country.

I am talking about nation,and not name of the country. Iran used to be Persia and pars used to be totaly different nation in compare with present muslim pars population. So what???

"That is half true.  Arran was a Part of the empire long before the Safavids, You have many Sassanid relics in Arran/Rep of Azerbaijan."

Thanks for accepting at least half of my story)))

It is not right, because present north Azerbaijan was turk Atabeg state, turk Eldegiz state, turk Shirvan state before Sefevid empire. And all these states were independent but were attacked by Iran or Ottoman periodicly.

"Qajars were Turkmen from East of Iran, not Azarbaijan, thy are the idiots who lost Arran to the Russians, it is their fault Arran became separated.  Safavids were much greater."

Really????...so I am turkmen???)))) Qajar were azeri-turk dinasty and they roots coming from north Azerbaijan city Gyandzha. They were rulers of all Azerbaijan khanats in north as well as whole Iran in south. And it is not their fault why they lost war with russians. Russia was much more stronger empire at that moment.

Any way either Qajar or Safavids were great turkish dinastys.

"Pishevari was a Russian stooge and Khiyabani did not want secession from Iran, he even changed the name of Iranian Azerbaijan to Azadestan because the Russians changed the name of Arran to Azerbaijan."

Pishevari was a great son of Azerbaijan nation. He and his collegue in soviet Azerbaijan Mir Jafar Bagirov were great patriots of Azerbaijan land. They both wanted unified two part of the nation,and of course at that moment under sovier rejime,because soviet union was much more stronger country than Iran and in soviet union Azerbaijan people could speak, educate, sing, read on their native azeri language. The culture of azerbaijan nation was developed in soviet time and what's why it was much better to have south azeries under soviet umbrella rather than poor and outdated pars pexlevi rejime.

"It is interesting that when the army retook Tabriz ther ewas no guerilla war or anything launched by discontented Azaris."

What army???...persian army)))))..there was not such thing like persian armya at that moment. Iran was depended on soviet and british soldiers.

But after Stalin decided to not continue help azeries in Iran and he started took soviet troops out of south Azerbaijan, more that 200,000 azeries followed them and moved to Baku.

"Letter to Stalin from Pishevari:"

First of all it was letter to Mir Jafar Bagirov and not to Stalin.

Mir Jaffar Bagirov was a lider of soviet Azerbaijan and he was the main person who argued with Stalin about soviet help to azeri rebelions in Iran. Stalin didn't want to have big Azerbaijan because he was a georgian and he was afraid that if both azerbaijan unified so it will be thread to georgians and armenians and also give an opportunity to have a long land border between Turkey and Azerbaijan.

"why does he call stalin father?"

Not Stalin. He called brother Mir Jaffar Bagirov. Read yours attachement more carefully)))

We turks always calling each other brothers. So I don't see anything wrong here))

"How does that sound? "

sounds very bad actually. But the iranian government already doing such things against Azerbaijan state. The "independence" of talish region was announced in 1993,after hundread of thousands dollars help from Iran. But Aliev sent army and whole structure of this "puppit" pars creature was destroyed and liders were arrested. Same will happened again if your mullas decide to do anything esle to destroy our motherland.

"You have your tinpot republic, you should be happy, I don't think you should try to cause trouble in Iran or it may come right back to your door as it did in the early 90s, just ask Aliyev."

We are almoust happy my brother. We will fully happy when our brothers in Iran would be liberated from pars rejime.

We don't want cause any trouble to pars people believe me. I have a lot of simphathy to pars and persian civilization. But I have a lot of problems with pars chouvinizm and arragance. I still can't understand how pars can be so arragant if their country was ruled by azeri-turks during last 800 years with a small breaks?)))))

Azeris played a significant role in almoust everything what Iran achieved in politics, history, literature, art, paintings, architecture during number of hundread years. And they even don't have an opportunity to read news in their native language.

"happy Norooz in one month by the way..."

Happy Novruz to you and your family as well.

Most want independence?  what is your source for that?  Some of the most ardent Iranian nationalists are Azaries and they think that Arran should be reunited with Iran.  Like I said Azaries are at every level of Iranian society, there are and have been (even during Pahlavi's regime) Azaries in government. 

Read this article by an Iranian Azari, he has researched the issue of Azaries INSIDE Iran, in Ardabil, East and West Azarbaijan.

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/culture/articles/eav041503.shtml - http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/culture/articles/eav04 1503.shtml

Iranian Azaris class themselves by majority as Iranian and have fought for and spilled hteir blood in defending the nation and will do so in the future should the need arise.

Ottomans and Russians have tried to dismember Iran but failed to do so because Iran's Azaries do not want separation, America and Israel will also fail.  They and people who think like them have no idea about the actual ethnic situation in Iran, all of their information comes from extremist separatists who have totally exaggerated and left reality int eh process.

My mother is azeri, and i know Azeri people very well.  Azeri people don't want to unify with nobody, they are Iranians and will stay Iranians too. I know for sure there are only a handfull communists trying since many years to separate Azerbayjan.

Btw there are no south and north Azerbayjan, there is only one Azerbayjan and it is an Iranian province. The absolutly false term "north and south" related to Azerbayjan is thanks to stalinists communists.

It is very ridicolous, many separatists suffer under "Fars-paranoia" (Fars=persian). They think everyone in Iran who is not Azeri must be strictly a Fars. So they divide Iran into 2 zones: 1-Azeri people 2-the rest of Iran and they are all Fars.

As i was talking in a chat by Paltalk about azerbayjan probleme, there were some separatists who called me "you Fars bastard", i said them i am not Fras at all, i am a mix of kurd and Azeri, but they keep calling me Fars

There is no hierarchy nor difference in race. In the vast majority of cases, the only way u can tell the difference is what people call themselves.  because of the long presence of Turks in iran, even many Persians will display features that would be classed as "Torki", such as almond like eyes or wide cheekbones. 

Iran's supreme leader Khamene'i is Azari as are much of the ruling elite, they have tremendoud influecence and power in Iran, joining a little country like Azerbaijan would be like going ten steps down.

Besides, the family connection between the so called "races" are such that any separation would be very complicated at  best. My cousin married an Azari two years ago - my dad is Kurdish, my mum is Persian.  People who dream of iran separating will never realise it, the only place that is even remotely in danger of doing so are Sorani Kurds of Kordestan province.

Why nobody answered to my question about news, mewspapers,education, theatre, books on azeri??????

Why pars chouvinists afraid to give equal rights to azeriturkish language at least in south Azerbaijan????

Why Tehran's government durign 15 years refused to open Azerbaijan consulate in Tebriz????

Why it took 15 years to have permission for openning direct flight between Baku and Tebriz????

Why you all not refresh your mind and just remember what happened in 1988, when border between USSR and Iran was clashed by azeries from both sides.

"who called me "you Fars bastard", "

Shame on such people who said this to you. As I said, I respect persian people and their civilisation. They made a great contribution to the world history.

At the same time I am proud for my own nation and I against some of pars chouvinists who denied contribution of azeri nation to development and improvement of Iran and of course Azerbaijan.

I am against the discremenation against azeri language, history and culture in Iran.

I am against the outdated and criminal islamic rejime in Iran which destroyed everything good you had in your country.

And I am of course agaisnt some old age azeries who become a liders in clerical Iran and use Islam as a weapon against their own native people.

Thanks for the insight, but i mean azeri, kurd, parsee, etc are distinct identities are they not? and is self identification not patriarchal?

"My mother is azeri,"

Do you speak azeri language?????

What do you know about culture and history of your mothers' nation?

Do you feel yourself half azeri-turk?

Do you feel any pain when your nation in North suffered from the war with armenians? Any pain about 1 million of azeri refugees?any pain about 60,000 killed azeri people in North by armenians and russians???

If you declare yourself half azeri and you think that you know many azeri people ,what is going to be your answeres?

The people I know from Tebriz, they not only know about all of this but also helped refugees ,they made a protests in Tebriz university against Tehran's politic with Armenia. I can say that these people are azeries.

About you????..i don tknow.

What you excpect from Azerbaijan Republic and azerbaijan nations, if muslim Iran became a most closer alliance for Armenia, which is an enemy of Azerbaijan.

Iran helped Armenia to survive and tokeep their occupation of azerbaijan land.

Iran make a joint agreements with armenians to build new factories in OCCUPIED AZERBAIJAN LANDS.

And you expect something different????

well, I identify myself as Kurd and Persian when asked by anyone who knows that there are different peoples in Iran.

Qajar, those things are nothing to do with pars chauvinism.  No one denies any Azari contribution in Iran. I always point it out infact, much of iran's top academia is azari and they play a big part in government. 

This man is the authority on everything in Iran, he is Azari.

the problem in iran is not discrimination, not at all, the problem is religious oppression which everyone faces equally.

Persian is the language of Iran like Turkish is the language of Turkey.  all of the Turkish dynasties you pointed out used Persian as the state langauge, Safavi, Qajari, Afshari - if you have a problem with its use you can blame them, not Persians, they controlled Iran for 500 years between them, if they decided to chnage the language to Turkish it would be Turkish today.

The day Iran supported Armenia was the day AFTER Aliyev made propaganda against Iran.

look at my signature, i like many other iranians, consider myself iranian first, and then persian. 

EVERYONE LIVING IN IRAN IS IRANIAN, not persian.  iran is like the USA, its made up of many different ethnicities!

we should unite north and south azerbaijan, UNDER IRANIAN CONTROL

georgia and azerbaijan would still be a part of iran had it not been for russian intervention in the 1800's. 

azeri's have a major role in iran, the leader of iran is azerbaijani.  even teh shah's wife, farah was azerbaijani.

so azerbaijan will always be a part of iran. they are iranian, just like i am iranian, and just like turkomen are iranians, and just like kurds are iranians.

instead of fighting each other, we should work together to make a better iran for all of us.

what is wrong with all these seperatist azeri's and kurds and the other ethnicities...

they seem to think that iran is under persian control and that persians are living great lives while they are being persecture against.

THE TRUTH IS THAT IRAN IS NOT UNDER PERSIAN RULE, ITS ALREADY RULED BY AN AZERI IRANIAN.  THE MULLAH'S OF IRAN PERSECUTE EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE MINORITIES. THEY HAVE KILLED THOUSANDS OF PERSIANS, THEY HAVE PERSECUTED THOUSANDS OF PERSIANS, AND THEY ATTEMPTED IN THE BEGINING OF THE REVOLUTION TO DESTROY IRAN'S PRE-ISLAMIC PERSIAN HISTORY!

WE ARE ALL SUFFERING, ITS NOT JUST YOU GUYS, SO STOP YOUR WHINING AND HELP BUILD A BETTER IRAN FOR ALL OF US!

well, the safavi's, qajari's, etc... considered themselves persians right?  especially the qajari's for sure, since all the maps during their time were labled as Persia, and all the news headlines of them coming to europe and other places called the king of persia, or the persian delegation and etc...

so i think they after all the years of cultural mixing actually believed themselves as persian even though they came from turkic origins. so thats probably why they didnt change the language.

it doesn't matter what they called themselves...  Turkists are proud of them and then they blame Persians for losing their language etc when it was these same Turkish dynastiesthat perpetuated the use of Persian.  There is nothing stopping Azaris who want to preserve their language setting up trusts to fund their efforts, same with anyone else. 

It is the duty of speakers of a particular language to ensure its survival, not the responsibility of people who supposedly constitute a majority in a country.

When we came abroad we set up "Farsi schools" to preserve our linguistic heritage.

OT: this is an autobiography by a Qajar princess, she calls herself "Daughter of Persia"

"Persian is the greek of middle east while arabic is the latin" -found it myself  

agree anyone?

no, the point i was trying to make was that to the safavid's and qajari's, it was just another persian empire. they didnt consider Iran to be a turkic empire, even under their rule. they still refered to it as Persia. so in efect, it was still persia (iran, or vis versa since iranians never used the term Persia, which is of greek origin) just under the rule of a dynasty that wasnt persian. like today, Iran is still iran, just ruled by an azerbaijani, thats the beauty of iran, its a mixing pot different ethnicities, and these seperatists should know more than anyone that Iran is not only the land of persians, it is the land of all iranic peoples and home to some non iranic peoples.

"The day Iran supported Armenia was the day AFTER Aliyev made propaganda against Iran."

Propaganda?????

You keeding me mate)))

How is comparable a few words of Aliyev with 15 years support to Armenia in her war with your muslim"brothers" azerbaijani people????

Do you know that if there is no iranian help and support, Armenia never ever could survive and keep azeri land uder occupation?

this choice made by pars chouvinists who don't even accept existence of Azerbaijani state.

This is your problem, not ours. 

actually, the regimein iran does recognise the indepedent azerbaijan. you said they dont?

the mullahs also support russia against chechnya.

there is no UMMAH! the regime in iran is doing what they think is best for them. they have no obligation to help you or to protect you, unless you join back with iran.

azerbaijan province will always be iranian, and the azeri's there want to stick with iran, heck, they rule the country right now.

and i think it is your problem. do you know whats keeping iran from blowing the hell outta you guys? nothing.  so before you think of trying to create a mess inside iran, just think about what iran can do to you guys in retaliation.

if anything, iran should reclaim azerbaijan, since it was territory taken by force by russia, and then made independent, when at no time in history was there a country called azerbaijan.  azerbaijan is iranian territory that is now independent.  azerbaijani history is iranian history simple as that.

i actually see azerbaijan a part of iran again in the future. not by force or anything but by economic and social unity. after the mullahs are gone, and iran is allowed to thrive again, this unification is inevitable, since azerbaijan is historical, religously, and culturally iranian.

Iran before Russian intervention (also includes afghanistan) compared to today's Iran:

I said, I'm very very very very weak in history

the fact here is that Qajar has no argument and therefore has stopped posting in here period.

azerbaijan shouldnt even be its own nation, let alone claim land that doesnt belong to them.

IRAN IS IRAN, AND WILL ALWAYS REMAIN IRAN. 

it seems as if the only ones who want to seperate from iran are those that arent even iranian in the first place

dont be jealous of our great nation....

"the fact here is that Qajar has no argument and therefore has stopped posting in here period."

You are not right my dear friend. Qajar just simply want go to bed. It is 2 morning now in london.))))

I have a lot of arguments,which I will post tommorow evening.

"azerbaijan shouldnt even be its own nation, let alone claim land that doesnt belong to them."

Of course in your pars chovinistics dream yes))))....But in reality azerbaijan nation has their own independent state and more over, they were  rulling nation in neighboring Iran for about 800 years))))

"IRAN IS IRAN, AND WILL ALWAYS REMAIN IRAN."

Never read name of Iran in ancient history. I know ancient country named Persia with persian nation whcih has nothing to do with modern iranians, they have different religion, culture, language, art, tradition. The great persian civilization was dead probably 1000 years ago.

"dont be jealous of our great nation...."

Which nation??????.....persian?, iranian?, modern pars?,kurds?, azeries?.........))))

jealous??))....to whom?...to fundamentalist state?....to exstremist ideology?....to most idiot head of state which any country has in all times????.....to one of the poorest economy in Asia?.....to millions uneducated people????.....to country with no common sence on it's development and future????...to millions of emigrants who struglle to find their identity????....country which was colony of England and Russia in 20th century and then became a puppit state in american hands?????

is this a nation I should be jealous to??????))))))))

remember my friend, turkish nations are always won the battle.

Happy dreams my pars brother))))

that is because azeri's are iranians. they are a part of iran and have always considered themselves iranian.

even the qajari's and safavid's kept the name Persia internationally and Iran internally. they considered themselves just another dynasty in the Persian empire, there was never an azerbaijan as an indepent state.

for your information, iranians have always called Persia (which is derived from the greek word Persis, which was derived from the Pars province in the achamenian empire where the capital perspolis was located).  Even cyrus the great refered to Persia as Iran.  Iran means "land of the aryans" and iranians have always called Iran, Iran.  Persia is the translation in english, just like germany is called germany in english, but actual germans have always called their land "dutshland".

and when has the Persian civilisation become dead? i believe the ottamon empire used persian as their cultural language.  and never has the persian empire been dead. infact, you azeri's have persian culture, persian religion, and persian history in you.  shia islam is an iranian religion seperate from sunni islam (some sunni's dont even recognise shia islam).  and every iranian dynasty has used the term Persia internationally and Iran within the borders, whether they be turkic, mongol, or persian.

things you are probably jealous of:

7000 years of iranian history, only 16 years of history for the independent azerbaijan.

irans cultural, scientific, and historical contributions to mankind,  independent azerbaijan has done nothing.

todays iran, with sanctions, with the political situation, with the lack of investment, with all the hardships, in in the top 20 of the worlds largest economies.

todays iran,  with sanctions, with the political situation, with the lack of investment, with all the hardships, and the lack of cooperation, makes its own planes, ships, satellites, missiles, cars, industrial equipment, military equipment, and commercial products.  Iran is has become self sufficient in food, iran has brought plumbing, electricity, and road (and soon even internet connection) to almost every village in the country! 

so you cannot claim Iran, Iranian land, nor Iranian history.  one day azerbaijan will be united, under irans flag.

turkish nations have always won?

turkmenistan was under iranian control for a long time, as well as afghanistan. and the mongols, after their conquest of iran, eventually became iranian themselves!

WIKIPEDIA:

also, a joint persian and british army defeated an turkish army during WWI.

and persia dominated the ottoman empire culturally while turkish influence in Iran was very low.

more iranian victores over turks, which you claim have always defeated iran:

1499-1508 White Sheep Turks (Ak Qoyunlu) defeated, overthrown by Safavid Persians

1602-1612 Ottoman-Persian War, loss of Azerbaijan, Caucasus area to Persians

1730-1736 Ottoman-Persian War; Azerbaijan lost to Persia

side note to the above: the Ottoman Empire conquered Azerbaijan from Persia, and then Persia reconquered it both times.

1776-1770 Ottoman-Persian War; temporary Persian occupation of Basra

Well whatever happened in history has happened, fact remains that Iran will never be split.  Iran is not Yugoslavia/balkans, we don't hate each other.  The first people to resist Azari secession will be Azaries themselves, I can guarantee that, fringe separatists will find etela'at on their ass in an instant and they will be shocked to see that most of them are also Azari.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Shah_Abbas_I_engraving_by_Dominicus_Custos_-_Antwerp_artist_printer_and_engraver.jpg">

"Shah Abbas King of Persians"

Persian refers to the whole state, why didn't he call it Azerbaijan? Because he saw himself as the heir to the Persian Imperial throne, he claimed descent from one side to Muhammad and from one side to Khosro Parviz.

When they wrote letters to the Ottomans they signed them "ShahanShah of Iran", the shadow of god on earth.

Posted: Yesterday at 9:20pm | IP Logged http://www.allempires.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=170466&TPN=3"> Qajar wrote: "azerbaijan shouldnt even be its own nation, let alone claim land that doesnt belong to them." Of course in your pars chovinistics dream yes))))....But in reality azerbaijan nation has their own independent state and more over, they were  rulling nation in neighboring Iran for about 800 years)))) that is because azeri's are iranians. they are a part of iran and have always considered themselves iranian. even the qajari's and safavid's kept the name Persia internationally and Iran internally. they considered themselves just another dynasty in the Persian empire, there was never an azerbaijan as an indepent state. Quote: "IRAN IS IRAN, AND WILL ALWAYS REMAIN IRAN." Never read name of Iran in ancient history. I know ancient country named Persia with persian nation whcih has nothing to do with modern iranians, they have different religion, culture, language, art, tradition. The great persian civilization was dead probably 1000 years ago. for your information, iranians have always called Persia (which is derived from the greek word Persis, which was derived from the Pars province in the achamenian empire where the capital perspolis was located).  Even cyrus the great refered to Persia as Iran.  Iran means "land of the aryans" and iranians have always called Iran, Iran.  Persia is the translation in english, just like germany is called germany in english, but actual germans have always called their land "dutshland". and when has the Persian civilisation become dead? i believe the ottamon empire used persian as their cultural language.  and never has the persian empire been dead. infact, you azeri's have persian culture, persian religion, and persian history in you.  shia islam is an iranian religion seperate from sunni islam (some sunni's dont even recognise shia islam).  and every iranian dynasty has used the term Persia internationally and Iran within the borders, whether they be turkic, mongol, or persian. Quote: "dont be jealous of our great nation...." Which nation??????.....persian?, iranian?, modern pars?,kurds?, azeries?.........)))) jealous??))....to whom?...to fundamentalist state?....to exstremist ideology?....to most idiot head of state which any country has in all times????.....to one of the poorest economy in Asia?.....to millions uneducated people????.....to country with no common sence on it's development and future????...to millions of emigrants who struglle to find their identity????....country which was colony of England and Russia in 20th century and then became a puppit state in american hands????? is this a nation I should be jealous to??????)))))))) remember my friend, turkish nations are always won the battle. Happy dreams my pars brother)))) things you are probably jealous of: 7000 years of iranian history, only 16 years of history for the independent azerbaijan. irans cultural, scientific, and historical contributions to mankind,  independent azerbaijan has done nothing. todays iran, with sanctions, with the political situation, with the lack of investment, with all the hardships, in in the top 20 of the worlds largest economies. todays iran,  with sanctions, with the political situation, with the lack of investment, with all the hardships, and the lack of cooperation, makes its own planes, ships, satellites, missiles, cars, industrial equipment, military equipment, and commercial products.  Iran is has become self sufficient in food, iran has brought plumbing, electricity, and road (and soon even internet connection) to almost every village in the country!    so you cannot claim Iran, Iranian land, nor Iranian history.  one day azerbaijan will be united, under irans flag. Quote: remember my friend, turkish nations are always won the battle. turkish nations have always won? turkmenistan was under iranian control for a long time, as well as afghanistan. and the mongols, after their conquest of iran, eventually became iranian themselves! WIKIPEDIA: Quote: Persian success at the Battle of Erzurum in 1821, where Abbas Mirza's army routed a superior Turkish force also, a joint persian and british army defeated an turkish army during WWI. and persia dominated the ottoman empire culturally while turkish influence in Iran was very low. more iranian victores over turks, which you claim have always defeated iran: 1499-1508 White Sheep Turks (Ak Qoyunlu) defeated, overthrown by Safavid Persians 1602-1612 Ottoman-Persian War, loss of Azerbaijan, Caucasus area to Persians 1730-1736 Ottoman-Persian War; Azerbaijan lost to Persia side note to the above: the Ottoman Empire conquered Azerbaijan from Persia, and then Persia reconquered it both times. 1776-1770 Ottoman-Persian War; temporary Persian occupation of Basra

yeah u forgot timur ,seljuk empires

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh yavuz sultan selim ,dont enter

The Ghaznavid Empire was ghost

Qajar dynasty another ghost

and

Shah Ismail was also a Sufi poet. He wrote his poems in Azeri-Turkic language and - to a lesser degree - in Persian. His divan, i.e., the collection of poems he has written with alias Khatâ'i, remains to this day. Here is a sample from his poetry, which is still popular today.

I regard my pir as the essence,

I'll sacrifice myself in his way,

I was born yesterday, I will die today,

Come, if you're willing to die, this is the arena

 

DayI, I believe they called themselves Padeshah (?) which is almost the same though - my point was that the operative word was Persia (Iran).

Basically what Qajar is trying to say is that Iran was part of a Azarbaijani Empire which is a complete historical fallacy.

Yes, Merced, we know shah Ismail was a Turk, but he was our Turk - that is Turk of Iran.

Did you guys also know that the Safavid Shahs gave Armenians special status and protection?

If Iran gets democratic, Azeris, Kurds and other ethnicities should VOTE, if they want to stay or not. That's the most democratic and sane solution.

If They want to separate then let them, it's their choice not yours to make.

Yes, and Assyrians, Arabs and Turkmens in Kurdistan should vote if they want separation, same with Talyshis and Tats of Azerbaijan. Infact the whole region should suddenly vote to become an array of useless competing ethnocentric cupcakes ready for the eating. And why stop there? 

It isn't going to happen. 

I think if 20 million Azeris wanted separation they would have at least a tiny guerilla movement.

If Azerbaijan did separate from Iran, their fascists from Baku would start to ethnically cleanse Kurds of the region out just like they have with Tats and Talysh, half of whom have completely lost their language. 

http://members3.boardhost.com/Taleshistan/msg/366.html - http://members3.boardhost.com/Taleshistan/msg/366.html

http://www.talish.tk/ - http://www.talish.tk/

http://www.factbites.com/topics/Talysh - http://www.factbites.com/topics/Talysh

These people need to be saved and liberated.

At least Iran broadcasts in Kurdish and Azari and does at least a little to help preserve the languages.

Another thing for Qajar, Pahlavi wasn't even a Fars, he was Gilaki.

I'll post the famoust letter (if i find it ofcourse) that whas written by Suleyman the magnificent to the French king He begon with "Me the khan of Turks, the emperor of the romans, the sultan of Bagdad, the king of Pontus, etc etc he had written more then 20 titles and finished with "and who are you, king of franks?"  

It reminds me funnily enough of when i was suddenly quite ill from numerous ailment after return from a trip abroad. After a prolonged episode i went to the doctor and complained, that i have suddenly got all these problems which i have never had before. I have never had a history of any medical problems.

He had replied with ac sarchastic smile: "Dont worry son we all have to start somewhere".

Moral of the story is: History has to start from somewhere.

U shouldnt rule things out.

Thanks for the info DayI.

Mal, so perhaps, they would have to get out of government rally their community together and get supplied arms from abroad; take down their lifestyle ten pegs.  Like I said, what many people overlook for propaganda reasons is the fact that Azaries are everywhere in Iranian society, from military to intelligence to the very height of government.  Infact, you know, often the governers of the Ostans are Azari, because central government feels it can trust them most.

Same with Arabs and Shia Kurds (in local government), our defense minister is an Arab.

Iran doesn't discriminate on ethnic grounds like I said, it discriminates on religious grounds, i.e. being Shia.  And of course there is the fact that it represses anything it deems unislamic, equally, be it Persian, Kurdish or Azari.

What about Baluchis and Pashtuns of Pakistan, I believe they have been waging an armed struggle for decades now.  They should be reunited with Afghanistan.

Poor Persians, they have not even run Iran for 1400 years and they take all this flak about being chauvinistic, etc.

KarimKhan Zand was a Lor and Pahlavis were Gilaki, Iranic but not Persian , just like me.

"Yes, and Assyrians, Arabs and Turkmens in Kurdistan should vote if they want separation, same with Talyshis and Tats of Azerbaijan. Infact the whole region should suddenly vote to become an array of useless competing ethnocentric cupcakes ready for the eating. And why stop there?"

How many arabnations are there? And Turkmen? Assyrians are to FEW, what are they going to do? I want them to have their country.

Kurds have wanted to separate for atleast 80 years, and how many lives haven't we lost in our tries to get free, huh? It PISSES ME OFF, when you compare us with groups who haven't DONE A sh*t, for freedom, when we Kurds have lost hundreds of thousands of lives to get free. DO NOT COMPARE US WITH AZERIS. OR ASSYRIANS WHO HELPED SADDAM. THEY WERE HAPPY TO BE "CHRISTIAN ARABS". And Saddam enjoyed to kill Kurds.

WE DON'T WANT OTHERS TO CONTROL US, THAT'S FACT. Give us one big opportunity and we'll take it, The Sunni Kurds in Iran won't blink for a second, and we'll separate from Iran, another fact.

Zagros

Hey..I am not saying that they should or they shouldn't. But where i differ from u is that i don't underestimate the destructive force of Nationalism(Not the exact term but one that probably best fits the sentiments i am referring to). Remember Lawrence of Arabia, young turks. Humans become very fickle when aroused with primitive instincts.

The number of pathans in Pakistan that have served it in important posts is too many, to mention. The first C&C in history of Pakistan was pathan. In Pakistan's history the only time that heads of all forces have been form the same ethnic background,have been pathan. The heads of ISI have been pathans. The architects of the nuclear program were pathans notably Abdul qadeer khan & Ishaq khan

Khan Abdul Wali Khan indeed had proposed the idea for a separate homeland. It initially gained strength from other emotional pathans, but then fizzled away.

Baloch, too are an indispensable part of the army and like other communities created Pakistan through their own efforts. The Prime minister jamali was a bloch. Read below.. 

http://www.storyofpakistan.com/person.asp?perid=P085&Pg=2 - chronology of events

http://www.humsafar.info/1947.htm - Also note that after partition, in the immediately ensuing war over Kashmir with India the tribes didn't take advantage and create pakhtoonistan, they marched with whatever at hand and freed all the land that is now Free Kashmir.(Azad KAshmir)

What is a serious concern is Musharrafs attitude and the upset it is causing in waziristan. He is spoiling the sanctity of the lands of the tribes that he should least mess with. In fact Jinnah went to great lengths to earn the confidence of the waziris, who's land were surrounded by garrisons of troops from the imperial age. One of Jinnah's acts was to remove these garrisons immediately.

There has been NO armed struggle for decades! Complete fallacy!. There has been minor trouble in Baluchistan periodically but the politics of that have totally different dynamics.

The calls for unity are usually by the bronze age afghans living in Afghanistan.

_____________________________________________++__________

Hence the communities in Pakistan created Pakistan and forged a common identity based on religion, similarities in culture and so forth.

Communities in Iran did not fight and sacrifice together to create the country of Iran as it exists today.

yes well, as you say don't under estimate the force of nationalism.

Cent, based on your argument, we can just send any Turks who want separation off to Rep Azerbaijan and any Kurds to Kurdistan ( Northern Iraq) since it is self governing.

KURDS are brave and should have their own homeland. Their seperate homeland is long over due. Chechens too.

There is a theory that they are still paying the price of Salladin, in the form of the deliberate dividion of their land amongst Four different countries by the colonialists.

I am glad u agree.

I am also a Kurd. but i dont see a future with a little ethnocentric (and increasingly racist) state.

Lol what are you talking about? Iranian Kurdistan wasn't divided up by anyone, you can see it as part of iran since the medes, the first iranian dynasty. The notion that Iranian Kurdistan was divided is as much a fact as the assertion that  Azarbaijan was divided.

When Stalin came to Iran he created these myths 60 years ago,  he set up Pishevaris puppet state and the puppet state of Mahabad, bboth communist and with no base of support.  they even had the communist Soviet uniforms to boot.

And the Kurds aren't even one people.  Turkish Kurds are different to Sorani Kurds of Iran and Iraq - Iranian Fayli Kurds are different,  Hawramani Kurds are different, Zaza and Dimli are different, none of the languages are mutually intelligible, if Kurdistan was divided by teh colonialists into four countries not 100 years ago, then you would thinkt hat at least all of them would be able to understand each other?

Zagros, what are you talking about? I talk to Kurmanji Kurds all days, even Fayli, and we understand eachother. There is no problem.

It is you who make them different.

"And the Kurds aren't even one people."

Thanks, good job man, your starting to sound like a facist Turk. Hope your happy... If a person feels his Kurd, then he is, its not you who will decide that.

I've lived in Sweden for 14 years now, and I know swedish perfect. And i can tell you that there are swedish dialects that nor I or other swedes UNDERSTAND. Still they are SWEDES. Living in the same country, having the same culture and history, and KURDS HAVE THAT TOO.

Nonsense. I am not stupid I am from that area and I know for a fact the languages are not mutually intelligible.  Soranis can't understand kermanshahis and we are the closest to them. And No one can understand Gorani. The difference between Sorani and Kermanji is the same as the difference between Farsi and Sorani.

I have been in the same room with kermanjis and Soranis and they spoke with each other in ENGLISH.

Fascist? That is a joke, I am just stating the facts.  Fascist would be calling all Iranian peoples the same, wanting to make a standard language for them all etc (this is what Kurdish nationalists want to do for all of the different branches of Kurd, to legitimise their claims of being one people because right now they aren't).  even if iran falls, you will neevr get your hands on my Kermanshah, not as long as there are Kermanshahis who know their roots and history.  And if it does fall into foreign hands, I will personally go back and fight for my land and people.

And I don't make up the differences, linguists do.

And I am sure if you sat a Kermansji and farsi down together they would be able to make each other understand eventually.  I can undertand a lot of sorani because my ears are trained to it.

That's because Iran is more likely a religious, theocratic society, not national. So a nation based state in Iran would definately fail. That's why most Azeris don't think as seperatists, because they think they are an ummat with other Shias. Religion is still the main combiner force between different ethnic groups in Iran, not nationalism. But if, nationalism spreads through Iran and rises to power, stronger than religionism (such as it became in the west, in late Ottoman period and Turkey), Iran would be Balkanised, just like Ottoman Empire was in Middle East when most population was Muslim.

It was from the reign of Abbas to Nadir Shah. Before Shah Abbas, Safavids definately had a Turkish identity.

I think you mean the Turko-Persian war of 1821-1823, concluded with the Treaty of Erzurum, when the previous borders were kept the same.

And I should say that Ottomans were dominant against Safavids since the battle of Chaldiran, both in cultural/religious way and power. If they weren't, most of Middle East and Turkey would have been Shia's and Alevis today. I am not comparing Turkis or Persian influences or dominiance as nations but as the backgrounds of the Ottoman and Safavid statas (Persia-Turkey to the west).

Azerbaijan in its history as a region, have never been part of the Anatolian statehood (Byzanthine Empire), but part of Iranian statehood (Sassanid Empire). So as Mesopotamia. If you compare Syrian or Lebanese culture, architecture etc. with Turkey, you'll find total similarity, inherited from Byzanthine Empire to Ottoman Empire, just like the Balkans or Egypt. But if you compare Iraqi, or Azeri culture, architecture etc. with Turkey, it is much more similar to Iran, inherited by Sassanids and so on.

Ottoman sultans used to call themselves sultan, khan, caesar, padishah, and so on. Same for Safavid shahs.

No. Iranian government is the one to decide that. And seperation brings nothing but failure. Power comes after unity, can you explain what has seperation brought to any Middle Eastern nation except poverty, conflicts and lack of power union? What did it bring to Balkans other than bloodshed and chaos?

Hi all.

The Sefevids are azeri-turkish dinasty and I don't think that any of you disagree with this fakt. In the later stage of Sefevids raine, they of began called themselvs persian shahs,because it was for their interests to show the continuation of 3,000 years of power. But the name of emperie was Sefevids Emperi - so the country was named after azeri-turk family name. As I said before, the Shah itself, royal family, royal forces, aristocracy and art all were consists of mostly azeries. If you talking about persian language, so yes it was an official language but not only in Persia, it was a language of aristocracy and literature in many eastern countires, like for example french was a language of aristocracy,royal family and literature in Russia in 18th and 19th centuries. If you ever read the great russian writer Tolstoy, you must know that his famous "War and Piece" was written in french and mojority of the letters in this book was also in french because it was a language of russian aristocracy at that time. Does it means that Russia was a french state???))....I don't think so.

But like it was mentioned before,Shah Ismal Hatai was a writer as well and all his poems he wrote in azeri-turk language.

As for religion aspect of Safavids emperi, I have my own thoughts on this issue. It was a purely political issue and especialy implemented by Shah Ismail in order to strength his position as a muslim world ruler in his competition with Ottoman Sultan. What's why he declared shias direction as a true faith. We can compare this situation with what happened here in England during Henry XIII reign. He also wanted to be independent of Pope and make his independant decisions in all areas, what's why he declared separation of England church from Pope.

In any way, the competition between Ottoman Sultan and Ismail Shah was a competition between two turkish leaders and not between turk and persian. The Sefevids armya elite was consist of kizilbash tribes and they were azeri-turks. So it was sad time for turks but at the same time it was great competition between turks.

"irans cultural, scientific, and historical contributions to mankind,  independent azerbaijan has done nothing."

As I mentioned before, we azeries had a very difficult history. Unfortunately during last 500 years we were split between Russia and Persia. But despite this, azerbaijani nation produced hundreads of famous writers, poets, composers, film makers and others. The first european style demokratik republic was announced in Azerbaijan in 1918 after Russian emperi collapsed- Azerbaijan Demokratic Republic  declared by Mammam Emin Razulzadeh. Azeri mugam culture is one of the best in the world. The first european style opera in muslim world "Leyla & Mejnun" was produced in Azerbaijan in 1908 by famous composer Uzeir Gadzhibekov, the first balley was produced in Azerbaijan and many others culturel/art pieces. Our carpets industry is one of the famous in the world, and in Iran almoust all carpets produced in Azerbaijan.

I am not even talking about azeri influence in Iran and what my nation contributed to glorify your state.

And how you can say that we done nothing????  It is selfish. I will never say that persians had do nothing during their history and I always try to be correct in my statements.

"todays iran,  with sanctions, with the political situation, with the lack of investment, with all the hardships, and the lack of cooperation, makes its own planes, ships, satellites, missiles, cars, industrial equipment, military equipment, and commercial products.  Iran is has become self sufficient in food, iran has brought plumbing, electricity, and road (and soon even internet connection) to almost every village in the country! "

In your dreams.))))....Todays Iran is a isolated country with wild President, and unfortunately it is became appear that your rejime is became more and more dangerous to the rest of the world. Your country provide support to islamic terrorists all over the world. You are not supporting palestains, you support Xamas which is one of the most terrible terrorist organisation in the world.  

"so you cannot claim Iran, Iranian land, nor Iranian history."

I never claimed Iran. I just said that at aleast 800 years of iranian history should be shared with azerbaijani nation, because azerbaijani not only played significant role there, but also build and ruled this country for  hundreads of years.

"one day azerbaijan will be united, under irans flag."

You wish)))))..I think nowdays you need more be concern regarding future of your own country,bare in mind the latest development in nuclear story))))

But I am sure it would be surpise for you, but I totaly against american attak on Iran. And you know why???..Not because I like mullahs, but because I think that ordinary iranians and deserved to be bombed and there are a hundred thousands of children, women and old people. All of them are good humans and they deserve much better treatment and life. And one more thing, for your information: Azerbaijan President offically declared that Azerbaijan WILL NOT give permission to americans for use it's land. He said, that people of Iran are our brothers and we will not compromise on this issue.

And all of this is after Iran continue helping Armenia to occupate azeri land. Shame on your government.

azerbaijan has never been a nation. azeri's have always considered themselves as iranian.

no, during WW one, a joint Persian and British army defeated a Turkish army which had invaded Iran.

you dont have a nation! your nation is Iran, and you will be a part of Iran again.

give me one piece of evidence in all of history in which there was ever an azerbaijan. you cannot provide this evidence because azerbaijan as a nation does not exist.

even russia recognised azerbaijan as Iranian.  Azerbaijan is Iranian, and will always be Iranian, and one day it will be reunified under the Iranian flag.

and Azerbaijan has always been a part of Iran until russia took it by force!

you do not have an argument. you provide no sources, no facts, you just talk and talk and talk.

(one day azerbaijan will be united, under irans flag)

u dream on

Azerbaijanis are a Turkic people numbering ca. 30 million worldwide. The majority, around 16-23 million (estimates vary) [3] [4], live in Iran. The rest, around 8 million, live in the Republic of Azerbaijan. There are also sizeable communities in Turkey, Georgia, Russia, USA, Canada, and Germany. The overwhelming majority are Shi'a Muslims

persians are tolerant people. like its been pointed out before, iran is not only the land for persians, infact, non persians have ruled for a thousand years and persian are ok with that. we are all iranians. there is no persian nationalism, there is only Iranian nationalism.

unlike turkey were turks think they are superior beings than the kurds and armenians, and have continually oppressed and killed them. Iranians are lilke you turks, we are all Iranian, unlike turkey, were only turks are turkish.

could you please tell me why the kurds of turkey fought for decades for independence from turkey, yet the kurds, azeri's, balouchi's, etc... of iran in the past 70 years have never raised arms against Iran. it is because Iran is a tolerant country of all nationalities and ethnicities. unlike turkic nations.

every iranian dynasty considered themselves iranian, no matter what ethnicity they were. they always kept the name Persia internationally, encouraged Persian culture, language, and religion, and always refered to themselves as Shah's of Iran.

(you dont have a nation! your nation is Iran, and you will be a part of Iran again.

give me one piece of evidence in all of history in which there was ever an azerbaijan. you cannot provide this evidence because azerbaijan as a nation does not exist.

even russia recognised azerbaijan as Iranian.  Azerbaijan is Iranian, and will always be Iranian, and one day it will be reunified under the Iranian flag.

and Azerbaijan has always been a part of Iran until russia took it by force!

you do not have an argument. you provide no sources, no facts, you just talk and talk and talk.)

dream on sweety dream

korkunun ecele faydasi yok

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you are funny

yeah very democratic iran

Action Memorandum 08

March 3, 1996

Repression and killings in Iranian Balouchistan

The Foundation for Democracy is preoccupied by reports emanating from Iranian Balouchistan of a wave of arrests and killings in recent weeks, that appear to be aimed at Sunni Moslem clerics and religious institutions in Eastern Iran.

On March 4, Molavi Abdul Malek Mollahzadeh, a Sunni cleric in Iran, was murdered as he was leaving his house in Pakistan, family members said. Molavi Abdul Malek's movements in Pakistan were being monitored by agents of the Islamic Republic because he was a well-known opponent of the regime involved in organizing the Balouchi community, family members alleged. The son of Molavi Abdulaziz, the most prominent Sunni cleric in Iran, Molavi Abdulmalek was killed along with an associate, Jamshid Zahi, by two gunmen in a taxi.

This is the fifth alleged killing of a Sunni Muslim cleric by Iranian government agents since 1994. The Foundation reported on some of the earlier killings on Feb. 15, 1996 [AM 007, "Disappearance and alleged execution of Molavi Ahmad Sayyad."]

These latest killings appear part of a systematic crackdown by the Iranian authorities against ethnic Balouchis and against the Sunni Muslim minority in Iran.

In Mashad, Iran's most prestigious religious center after Qom, government security agents broke into the Salehabad Sunni Muslim seminary in late February, arresting faculty members and sending many of the students to military service, family members of those arrested reported. Under the Islamic Republic's constitution, it is illegal for the state to oblige seminary students to do their military service. Among those arrested was the head of the school, Mr. Mosavi Mohialdin, who was forcibly defrocked by the authorities.

Another Sunni cleric and high school teacher, Molavi Abdulrahman Alahverdi, was arrested by the authorities in late February in the Balouchi town of Saravan, sources in the region reported. So far, his fate remains unknown. The Foundation for Democracy in Iran will publish additional details on these events as they become available.

Ethnic cleansing?

The Foundation is concerned by reports that the Iranian government has been forcibly relocating Balouchi citizens to remote desert areas, while systematically encouraging non-Balouchis to take their place by giving them incentives such as free land, cheap housing, no-interest loans, and government jobs. Such policies amount to ethnic cleansing by another name.

Over the past two years, the ethnic balances in major Balouchi cities such as Zahedan, Iranshahr, Chabahar, and Khash has become non-Balouchi because of these government policies. In the Iranshahr area, tens of thousands of Balouchis have been forcibly relocated from fertile farming areas to desert communities in Rashkoh, Naygon, Mnzran, and Daman. In the Sarbaz areas, Balouchis have been relocated to Gornagan, Hamnat, and Sarkor. In the region around Khash, the desert relocation site is known as Erandegan. When villagers refuse to comply with evacuation orders, they face armed attack. In May 1995, for instance, Iranian Revolutionary Guards troops attacked the village of Sovrdar of Zardkoh (40 kilometers outside Iranshahr) after villagers refused to evacuate their homes and relocate to a desert community.

This policy of forced relocation appears to have begun in 1994, after the February riots in Zahedan, the capital of Iranian Balouchistan, when local residents protested the destruction of a Sunni Muslim mosque in Mashad. At least fifty people were wounded when Revolutionary Guards troops fired into the crowd in Zahedan's Maki mosque. In another instance, Balouchi sources say that in December 1994 Iranian Army helicopters fired rockets into the village of Maraverti, killing 100 villagers. Another 200 villagers were either wounded or arrested in the attack. Those arrested were transferred to prisons in Kerman, Zahedan, and to Tehran's infamous Evin prison.

Many Balouchis who have protested the forced relocations have been arrested and accused as drug smugglers or foreign agents, Balouchi sources claim. Some have been executed under these false charges. As the Foundation has noted in previous communiqués, the Iranian authorities appear to be using ethnic differences, "banditry" and "smuggling" as pretexts for a brutal crackdown on potential opponents to the regime. Similarly, the Foundation is concerned that the authorities are seeking to excite ethnic violence between Sunnis and Shiite Muslims in the region.

The Foundation has written to the leader of the Islamic Republic, Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamene'i, President Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani, the Ministries of Justice, Interior, and Foreign Affairs, and has sent an inquiry to Iran's Permanent Mission to the United Nations in New York, requesting that the Government of Iran authorize a delegation from the Foundation and from other human rights organizations to visit Iranian Balouchistan to investigate these allegations.

The Foundation has also requested specific information on the alleged March 4, 1996 murders of Molavi Abdul Malek and Jamshid Zahi; the Feb. 2, 1996 disappearance and subsequent death of Molavi Ahmad Sayyad; the disappearance in Saravan village of Molavi Abdulrahman Alahverdi in early February; and the late February attack on the Salehabad Sunni Muslim seminary in Mashad.

The Foundation calls on the Hon. Maurice Copithorne, Special Representative for Iran of the United Nations Human Rights Commission, to investigate these allegations and, more generally, the human rights situation of Balouchi and Sunni Muslim citizens of Iran.

you dont have a nation! your nation is Iran, and you will be a part of Iran again.

give me one piece of evidence in all of history in which there was ever an azerbaijan. you cannot provide this evidence because azerbaijan as a nation does not exist.

even russia recognised azerbaijan as Iranian.  Azerbaijan is Iranian, and will always be Iranian, and one day it will be reunified under the Iranian flag.

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Your country will be destroyed. Your are insufficiant nation, you lost everything and if there were not azeri-turks in Sefevids, Qajars,kizilbashs your country probably finished it's existancy long time ago. And now days, you can compare level of development, culture, ecanomy, army between Iran and Turkey???))))))

Azerbaijan is small country, but we have Mother-Turkey, which is one of the greatest nation in the world. And all achievements of Turkey are also our achievements, because we are turks. For hundread years, russian and pars tried to disconnect azeri-turks from theri turkish roots, but finnaly we did it. Do you knwo that during Stalin's rejime about 120,000 azeries were sent to Siberia and died there, only because they said that relationships between Turkey and Azerbaijan should be more closer, because we-azeries want to be with our brothers in Anatolia.

But Iran is a dead country. And after Islamic rejime collapsed, the national movement will be much more stronger in your country and I can only guess what 20 million of azeries will do then)))

Well if Iranian nationalism is not a problem for people within Iran, then there is no problem.Look out for the Americans tthough!!

in new york tradinational turks walking day ceronomy.

yea very dead country indeed

you is going to destroy iran? the USA? i dont think so, i live in the US, i know whats going on in the news. infact, congress has giving an extra $75 million dollars to the fund for freeing Iran peacefully.

no one wants to attack iran, the only one that may is israel.

we will see my iranian friend.  i hope you give iran an excuse to send its army and take back what was stolen from it.

yes, the only persecution in iran is religous persecution. because of our islamic regime (hopefully one day the islamic occupation will end)

and the balouchi leaders are mostly drug lords, and this is recognised internationally and europe helps fund irans fight against them, so their drugs dont get to europe.

please provide facts...

i'll be happy to see some facts. no facts yet. only turkish supremacist talk, the same talk talk that propelled the kurdish and armenian genocides.

iran was democratic before turkey was

1950-1953, overthrown by the US and UK.

so dont give us iranians a lecture on democracy, because your country is just secular, still far from the standard democracy.

turkish democracy:

saying anything bad about turkey lands you a fine or jail sentence.

talking about the bad aspects of turkish past lands you in jail or with a fine.

religous people cannot drive, go to university, walk into government buildings, nor run for office.

last coup by the military in turkey was 1996.

that is turkish democracy, its better than what we have in iran right now, buts its no democracy in reality, just another secular state.

we will see my iranian friend.  i hope you give iran an excuse to send its army and take back what was stolen from it.

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Again chouvinistic bla bla bla ...my azeri-turk friend)))))

Iranian armya send to Azerbaijan?????))))....in few minutes after this happened, your army will face joint azeri-turkish soldiers. Knowing you and your chouvinistics instict, Azerbaijan signed a military agreement with Turkey.

Turkish army need a few hours to destroy your puppit country.

lol, yea the same turkish army that spent decades trying to crush a kurdish resistance movement is going to defeat iran in a few hours

have you heard of the Iran Iraq War?  iran and iraq were the richest and two most power nations in the region (including turkey).  during the revolution, the army was disolved, american help was cut off, basically iran had nothing.

iran not only defeated the iraqi forces in iran, that were getting weapons, money, naval, and satelite help from the west, but took the war into iraq for the next five years! iran had nothing, and still managed to survive.

now iran is one the strongest nations in the world (ofcourse no match for US or UK)! its shahab missiles will bring anakara and istanbul to the ground in a matter of minutes. even today, the world admits that a war between iran and israel (which is one of the strongest nations in the world) would destroy israel, and damage iran heavily.

and dont think that turkey will defend you against iran, turkey and iran have a lot of interests together, for example, turkey needs iranian oil and gas, and turkey and iran have an alliance incase of kurdish uprising. turkey is not will to rish that to fight for territory that belongs to iran.

and it is a well known fact, that every nation surrounding iran, benefited from the iranian revolution.

turkey, and UAE are the two nations that have benefitted most from the revolution in Iran. because Iran was the number one ally of the west in the region, and the most advance and rich, after the revolution, the west need other countries to fill iran's gap, so they went to turkey, and pakistan, and other countries.

still no evidence of an azerbaijani nation....

this is a historical forum, please enlighten me with some history!

and still, no one has even commented on the evidence i have provided. look at the truth and stop running from it.

you supremacists turks are funny, always playing the victim. atleast us iranians stand proud of our country, both at the good and bad times, while you guys just run from your past mistakes.

lol, yea the same turkish army that spent decades trying to crush a kurdish resistance movement is going to defeat iran in a few hours

have you heard of the Iran Iraq War?  iran and iraq were the richest and two most power nations in the region (including turkey).  during the revolution, the army was disolved, american help was cut off, basically iran had nothing.

iran not only defeated the iraqi forces in iran, that were getting weapons, money, naval, and satelite help from the west, but took the war into iraq for the next five years! iran had nothing, and still managed to survive.

now iran is one the strongest nations in the world (ofcourse no match for US or UK)! its shahab missiles will bring anakara and istanbul to the ground in a matter of minutes. even today, the world admits that a war between iran and israel (which is one of the strongest nations in the world) would destroy israel, and damage iran heavily.

and dont think that turkey will defend you against iran, turkey and iran have a lot of interests together, for example, turkey needs iranian oil and gas, and turkey and iran have an alliance incase of kurdish uprising. turkey is not will to rish that to fight for territory that belongs to iran.

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xixixixix))))))))))))

you are the funnist person I have ever heard))))))

you compare weak and outdated iranian armya which use old soviet equipment, with the stronger armya in region + second strongest army in NATO-Turkey??????)))

you keeding....

this a huge tolerance from turks against kurds, because kurds are equal citisens of Turkey and whay turk should fight kurds???...they only fight terrorists and fight very successfuly))))

For you information my azeri friend, in 1918 when Azerbaijan declared independance from Russia, next day joint russian-armenian forces crossed azeri border and started war. After few days, Turkey send their armya lead by Nuru-Pasha to help azeries and this armya reached Baku and destroyed armenian-russian forces. By the way, at that time Turkey was involved in ffight for their own independence, but they helped their brothers and we will never forget 18,000 turkish soldiers who died in our land for our indepedance.

the second strongest nation in NATO?

USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Canada, etc...

you are a moron! turkey just has the second largest, because they have 70 million people, that doesnt mean its strong!

o man, how old are you? just leave, you made a fool of yourself.

turkey, and UAE are the two nations that have benefitted most from the revolution in Iran. because Iran was the number one ally of the west in the region, and the most advance and rich, after the revolution, the west need other countries to fill iran's gap, so they went to turkey, and pakistan, and other countries.

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Turkey became ally of the west since Ataturk declared western direction for turks. It was in 1923, when Iran still lived in middeval time))))

Turkey became a member of NATO in 1957, which is 22 years before islamic revolution in Iran.

Turkey was one of the closest ally of west during cold war.

Turkey is only major muslim nation which was never ever colonised by europeans. More over, turks could buid one of the greatest Emperie in the wordl and took tens of europeans nations and their control.

And at the same time, Iran was apuppit state in british and russian hands.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

prsn41ife
 dream on, firstly you read turks history after talks

The only reason turkey became a member was because it was to poor and weak to defend its self from communist russia. and the US didnt want it to fall into soviet hands.

Iran was also never colonised, and defeated portugal, england, and russia many times.

QAJAR, YOU STILL DO NOT PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE, AND YOU DO NOT EVEN TRY TO COUNTER ANY OF THE EVIDENCE I PROVIDE. THIS PROVES THAT YOU DONT HAVE A CASE, AND THAT YOU ARE WRONG.  THIS IS A HISTORICAL DISCUSSION FORUM, IF YOU ARE NOT HERE FOR HISTORICAL REASONS, THEN YOU NEED TO TAKE YOUR PROPAGANDA SOME WHERE ELSE.

i know turkish history. the only muslim nation to commit genocide.

Originally posted by Land of Aryan TAKBIR ok, write protocol, I want assign Azarbaiejan to you, not enough?? all of their graves all over Iran for you. not enough?? well, MARTIAN REPUBLIC OF AZARBIEJAN with n years history in Mars for you

dont forget, we should also give them the USA since it was originally turkich. and i believe that eskimos were turkic too, along with japanese people.

everything is turkic to these turkic supremacists.