Im sick of people claiming people and things that are Persian/Iranian.

Im new here, maybe a thread like this has already been done but i will make this one anyway.

Avicenna or Ibn Sina

wikipedia

Avicenna (Ibn Sina also known as al-Shaykh al-Rais (meaning the Leader among the wise men), in Persian and Arabic: شيخ الرئيس، ابوعلی حسين بن عبدالله بن سينا, (full name is Abu Ali Husain ebn-e Abdollah Ebn-e Sina-e Balkhi or Pur-Sina or Ebn-e Sina (980 - 1037)) was a Muslim Persian physician, philosopher, and scientist.

Rumi

Molana Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Balkhi or Celâladin Mehmet Rumi [1](Persian: مولانا جلال الدين محمد بلخى , Arabic: جلال الدين محمد رومي (September 30, 1207 – December 17, 1273 CE) (also known as Molana, Molavi, Mawlvi, Mawlana, meaning our guide or our master in Arabic and Persian, or Mevlana meaning our guide in Turkish) was a Sufi Persian poet, jurist, theologian and teacher of Sufism who was born in Balkh (then a city of the Greater Khorasan province of Persia, now part of Afghanistan)

List of Persian/Iranian scientists, physicians, etc...

A Abdol-Hamid, founder of Arabic prose along with the fellow Persian Ibn Muqaffa. Abdolrahman, Sheikh Muhammad, physician. Abhari, mathematician. Abu Nasr e Mansur, mathematician. Abu Wafa Buzjani, mathematician. Ahmad ibn Farrokh, physician. Ahmad Ibn Imad ul-din, physician and chemist. Ala'eddin, constructed the Counterweight Trebuchet for Kubilai. He was thus honoured in the official history of China's Yuan dynasty. (p119) Alavi Shirazi, royal physician to India. Al-Ghazali Alhazen, or Ebne Heisam in Persian. Amuli, Muhammad ibn Mahmud, physician. An Shihkao Aqa-Kermani, physician. Aqsara'i, physician. Arzani, Muqim, physician. Astarabadi, physician. Aufi, Muhammad, scientist and historian Avicenna (Ibn Sina), physician, philosopher Azophi, a.k.a. Abdorrahman Sufi, astronomer from Ray that invented the meridian ring. [edit] B Bahai, Sheikh Bal'ami, Samanid era scholar Balkhi, a.k.a. Albumasar, mathematician Balkhi, Ibn Sahl, geographer and mathematician Balkhi, Ibn, author of the 12th century book Fars Nama (فارس نامه Bani Musa, Hasan, astronomer Bani Musa, Ahmad, astronomer Bani Musa, Mohammad, astronomer Barmak, Khaled, Bhuddist from Khorasan in the court of al-Mansur, initiated the Greek translation movement of the Abbasid House of Wisdom Bukhtishu, Persian Christian physicians of Academy of Gundishapur Bukhtishu, Abdollah ibn, physician Bukhtishu, Gabriel ibn, physician Bukhtishu, Yuhanna, physician Burzoe, a.k.a. Borzouyeh-i Tabib, physician of Academy of Gundishapur Biruni, astronomer and mathematician [edit] E Esfarayeni, physician [edit] F Farabi, (Al-Farabi, Pharabius), chemist Farghani, a.k.a. Alfraganus, astronomer Farsi, mathematician Fazari, Ibrahim Fazari, Mohammad [edit] G Geber; Jaber ibn Hayan, chemist Gardizi, Abu Saeed, geographer and historian Ghazzali (Algazel), philosopher Gilani, Hakim, royal physician Gorgani, Zayn al-Din Isma‘il ibn, royal physician Gorgani, Abu Saeed, astronomer and mathematician Gorgani, Rustam, physician Gorgani e Masihi, see Masihi Gorgani, Avicenn'a master [edit] H Hajji Zayn al-Attar, physician Hakim Ghulam Imam, physician Hakim Muhammad Mehdi Naqi, physician Hakim Muhammad Sharif Khan, physician Hallaj, Mystic-philosopher Hamadani, Rashid al-Din, historian Hamadani, Ali, physician Harawi, Abolfadl, astronomer of Buyid dynasty Harawi, Muwaffak: See Al-Muwaffak, pharmacologist Harawi, Muhammad ibn Yusuf, physician Hasani, Qavameddin, physician [edit] I Ibn Abi Sadiq, "The Second Hippocrates", Avicenna's disciple Ibn Haytham, physicist Ibn Khaseb, physician Ilaqi, Yusef, Avicenna's pupil Ilyas, Yusef ibn, physician Isfahani Abol-fath, mathematician Ibn Sina, (Avicenna), Philosopher and Physician Isfahani, Jalaleddin, physician Isfahani, Husayn, physician Istakhri, geographer, gives the earliest known account of windmills [edit] J Jaghmini, physician Jaldaki, physician Jarrah vizier from Khorasan Juvayni, historian Juzjani, Abu Ubaid, physician [edit] K Karaji, mathematician Kashani (Kashi), mathematician Kazerouni, Masoud, physician Kermani, Iwad, physician Khazeni, Abu Jafar, mathematician Khazeni, Abolfath, physicist Khayyám, Omar, poet, mathematician, and astronomer Khorasani, Sultan Ali, physician Khujandi, mathematician and astronomer Khwarizmi (aka Al-Khwarazmi) creator of algorithm and algebra, mathematician and astronomer Kushyar ibn Labban, mathematician, Nasavi's master Kuhi, Rostam, mathematician Kubra, Najmeddin [edit] M Mahani, mathematician Majusi, Ibn Abbas, physician Marvazi, astronomer and mathematician Marvazi, Abu Taher, philosopher Masawaiyh or Masuya Mashallah, of Jewish origins, from Khorasan who designed the city of Baghdad based on Firouzabad Masihi Gorgani, Avicenna's master Mirza Ali Hakim, physician Miskawayh, philosopher Mostowfi Qazvini, geographer Mozaffar ibn Ismail of Herat, physicist and original author of Khazeni's Balance of Wisdom Mullasadra, philosopher Muqaffa, Ibn, founder of Arabic prose along with Abdol-Hamid. Muwaffaq, Abu mansur, pharmacologist [edit] N Nagawri, physician Nahavandi, Benjamin, Jewish scholar Nahavandi, Ahmad, astronomer Nakhshabi, physician Nasavi, mathematician Natili Tabari, physician Naubakht, Zoroastrian designer of the city of Baghdad Naubakht, Fadhl ibn Nayrizi, mathematician Neishaburi, physician Nurbakhshi, physician [edit] O Ostanes, physician [edit] Q Qazi Zadeh, Turkish born prominent mathematician Qazwini, mathematician Qazwini, Zakariya, physician. [edit] R Razi, Amin, geographer Razi, Fakhreddin, philosopher Razi, Zakariya (Rhazes), chemist and physicist which found Alkohol Razi, Najmeddin [edit] S Saghani Ostorlabi, astronomer. Sahl, Fadl ibn Sahl, Shapur ibn, physician. Samarqandi, Najibeddin, physician. Samarqandi, Ashraf, mathematician, astronomer. Sarakhsi, Ahmad tayyeb, Famous physician of Academy of Gundishapur d900. Shahrazuri, philosopher and physician. Shirazi, Imad al-Din Mas'ud, physician. Shirazi, Muhammad Hadi Khorasani, physician. Shirazi, Qutbeddin, astronomer. Shirazi, Mahmud ibn Ilyas, physician. Shirazi, Najm al-Din Mahmud ibn Ilyas, physician. Shirazi, Qurayshi, physician. Sijzi, mathematician. Sijzi, Mas'ud, physician. Soleiman ibn Hasan, physician. Sufi, Abdol-rahman: see Azophi. Sorevardi, Shahabeddin. d1234. Philosopher. [edit] T Tabari, prominent historian. Tabari, Natili: See Al-Natili Tabari, Abul Hasan, physician. Tabari, Ibn Sahl, Jewish convert physician. Master of Rhazes. Tabrizi, Maqsud Ali, physician. Tahir, Abdollah ibn. A medieval governor of Khorasan. Wrote Kitab al-Quniy, discussing irrigation techniques. Tāriq, Yaqub ibn Tunakabuni, physician. Tughra'i, physician. Tusi, Nizam ol-Molk, the great vizier. Tusi, Nasireddin, mathematician, philosopher. Tusi, Muhammad ibn Mahmud ibn Ahmad, author of the famous 12th century Ajayib al-Makhluqat (عجایب المخلوقا 78. Tusi, Sharafeddin, mathematician. [edit] U Ulugh Beg, Turkish-Persian astronomer. Urdi, Mo'ayyeduddin, astronomer who made modifications to Ptolemy's model to account for discrepancies in observations. [edit] V Vatvat, scholar and physician. [edit] Y Yazdad, Ibn was a learned Persian vizier from Merv, Khorasan, of the Abbasid dynasty. Yumn, Nazif ibn [edit] Z Zaiyat, Ibn was a learned Persian vizier from Gilan, of the Abbasid dynasty. Zamakhshari, scholar and geographer. Zarrin dast, oculist.

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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War

actually, afghanistan was irans till the mid 1800's and if the british had not taken it, then afghanistan would be a part of iran today.

and all the signgs point to rumi being persian/iranian, not pakistani, turkic, or indian.

and you are right, all these arabised names from the arab occupation of iran cause a lot of confusion, but luckily here in the USA they teach them to us as Persians when we talk about islamic history.

Persian/Iranian literaries

Poetry Firdausi Shahnama Rumi (Molana) Diwan-e Shams-e Tabriz-i Mathnavi Ma'navi Omar Khayyam Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam Attar The Conference of the Birds Hafiz Divan Hafez Sa'di Bostan Gulistan [edit] Essays Qabusnama (1082), A Mirror for Princes Jawami ul-Hikayat Siyasatnama [edit] Biography Lubab ul-Albab [edit] Satire Obeid Zakani Dehkhoda Kiumars Saberi Foumani Hadi Khorsandi [edit] Folklore Kelileh va Demneh (translated from an Indian folk tale) [edit] Contemporary Persian Literature Literature of the late 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. [edit] Poetry Notable poets include: Nima Yushij Ahmad Shamlou Mehdi Akhavan-Sales Fereydoon Moshiri Sohrab Sepehri Manouchehr Atashi Mohammad Reza Shafiei-Kadkani Forough Farrokhzad Simin Behbahani [edit] Novels Well-known novelists include: Simin Daneshvar [edit] Essays Houshang Golshiri, Fiction writer, critic and editor [edit] Satire Ebrahim Nabavi [edit] Literary criticism 19th century critics include: Mirza Fath `Ali Akhundzade Mirza Malkom Khan Mirza `Abd al-Rahim Talebof Zeyn al-`Abedin Maraghe`i Prominent 20th century critics include: Allameh Dehkhoda Badiozzaman Forouzanfar Mohammad Moin Saeed Nafisi Parviz Natel-Khanlari Sadeq Hedayat Ahmad Kasravi. Contemporary critics include: Abdolhossein Zarrinkoub Shahrokh Meskoob

 

Some of Afghanistan's prominent names in Persian literature are: Ustad Behtab Ustad Khalilullah Khalili [1] Wasef e Bakhteri Leila Sarahat Roshani Sayed Elan Bahar Parwin Pazwak

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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War

Balkh (BACTRIA) is where he was born, the people there have never been Persians, although Tajiks today definately identify with Persians - Afghanistan might have been part of Iran then, doesn't mean they were Persians, like I said they were [and still are] Tajiks, who are in teh Iranian group, like Kurds and Lors are.

I will quote Hafez Shirazi:

I will put it into simpler words: don't pay attention to the shi**y arguments of sects (hyper nationalists), the truth they don't like, so they invent it.

Well, not all Persian speakers are Persians, and not all those people on the Persian scientists list are Persians (or even Iranians) either. Although most learned Muslims were indeed Iranians (because Arabs and Turks were nomads, i.e. barbarians, until quite late, and only Egypt, Syria and Iran had high civilisation in the Muslim realm), one should not get carried away and call everyone who spoke Persian an Iranian.

I agree with this to a point, it makes no sense in today's world.

But I think the use of 'Islamic' in the context of Middle Ages does make sense, because it is obvious that Islam created a vast cultural sphere- a 'civilisation' if you will, which was clearly interconnected. That cultural entity produced many of these people, who defined themselves as 'Muslims', rather than Persians, or Arabs or whatever. Thus calling such people 'Islamic' is more accurate than calling them Persian if you ask me.

Islam actually gave people a chance to define themselves through what they can choose and change, rather than what they are born into. This is a superior attitude than claiming someone for an ethnicity, or even worse, for a nation. This is a sad result of the Western influence on the Middle East.

I only have a problem when they call it Arabic, I can accept Islamic in some contexts, but art and architecture is not one of them, because Iranian and its Turco-Iranian (Seljuq, Timurid, Moghul, Safavid) derivatives were quite apart from the non existent uniform "Islamic" architecture which has in part been employed to satisfy the Peninsula Arabs whose classical arhitecture is almost non existant.

Art can be Islamic to some degree, but I agree on architecture. In Turkish architecture the Seljuk and Ottoman periods are obviously different,, since the latter took on Greek forms rather than continuing the Turco-Iranian one.

Btw, 'Ismail Khan Rumi' means 'Ismail Khan of Turkey', so nothing to get worked up about it. He was a student of Sinan, AFAIK, a dome building expert. 

i believe that people such as arabs, turks, etc... take our people and make them their own because they dont want to admit that they are so heavily influenced by people of another race.

for example, ataturk went on a campaign of getting rid of all the words in the turkish language that werent turkish (like the persian and arabic ones) but when he realised that the turkish language was so dependent on some words from these two cultures, he drafted a resolution that said that the turkic language is the mother of all languages, therefore turkish isnt influenced by other languages at all.

other ethnicities should not be stealing people from others just to make up for what they lack.

Originally posted by Land of Aryan & Do you know what makes me crazy?? in today in history when I posted about Khawrazmi or Bironi. wikipedia wrote "Persian mathematician, astronomer, or .... " After post, it had been changed to honorofic title of Turkish mathematician or ... & same about Taj mahal, There was " for His Persian wife " now it's "for his wife " or in the carftsman of taj mahal: Ostad Isa shirazi is Deleted & Ostad Ismail Khan Rumi has been change to Ostad Ismail Khan of Turkey. I don't understand what they want to proof by fake History

perhaps they are ashamed of themselves?

Ok, let's compare your attitude to others;

So if someone could have had some Persian blood, and their grandfather could have had a Persian name, he is Persian, and people who say he isn't are trying to steal 'your' people. Even the American one-drop rule for the Blacks say that they should have one drop of Black blood before getting called Blacks, while for calling someone Persian, even the possibility of having Persian blood it is enough.

On the other hand, the list above calls people like, say, Farabi (from Kazakhstan, called ibn Tarkhan...) Persian, without batting an eyelid. 

Why the double standard, I wonder? Is it just typical racist/nationalist influence from the West (who once believed all civilisations on the planet were created by the 'Aryans'- which means 'Germans')? Or is it secular (and often exiled) Iranian's hatred of Islam showing its ugly face in an attempt at proving that Islam and Arabs (or Turks or all other Muslims except themselves) are worthless?

hey man, i just put that link up from wikipedia, you can click on the names to get more info... can you not comprehend that? i didnt go through the whole list one by one, i just copy pasted, but the link is there, go see for yourself... LOL

and rumi's fathers name was also an iranian name i believe, i will look it up.

and as far as i know, iranians give credit where its due.....there may be some that we claimm as our own which is wrong, but i dont believe its as much as the turks or arabs do.

and I REPEAT AGAIN, i just copied that list from wikipedia, some of them may be wrong, but you can click on the link and check it out.

and besides, rumi is thought of as persian by many historians that are not iranian. and you cannot draw modern borders on ancient maps. Persia was in afghanistan then and the makes it perfectly legitimate to say that there were persians where rumi was born and that he was persian himself.

and another funny thing, when most historians and encyclopedias refer to rumi as Persian, is it because they are making it up?

its funny, the only people i have seen call Rumi something else happen to only be turks, indians, or pakistani...  most historians and encyclopedia's seem to agree that Rumi was Persian.

that doesnt make any sense at all....

there are irish imigrants whose grand grand children are now american, but that doesnt change the fact that the grand grand father was irish.

the same with rumi, it doesnt matter if his grand grand children are turkish now, it doesnt change the fact that rumi was persian then.

lets say i live in china, and my great grand children are raised in china and consider themselves chinese, does that make me chinese, no that still makes me iranian.

and dont give me two turkish sources and expect me to believe it.

as i have said, most historians consider him persian. are they just making it up? i dont think so.

you believe that turkish people are always right and everyone else has to be wrong.

for instance, turks also believe that they won WW one. thats ridiculous, but nevertheless, many turks still believe that, even though all historians dont.

typical nationalist turk.

Molana Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Balkhi or Celâladin Mehmet Rumi ^[1](Persian: ãæáÇäÇ ÌáÇá ÇáÏíä ãÍãÏ ÈáÎì , Arabic: ÌáÇá ÇáÏíä ãÍãÏ Ñæãí) (September 30, 1207 – December 17, 1273 CE) (also known as Molana, Molavi, Mawlvi, Mawlana, meaning our guide or our master in Arabic and Persian, or Mevlana meaning our guide in Turkish) was a Sufi Persian poet, jurist, theologian and teacher of Sufism

the site says that because it says turks call him that. if you look closely, it also says what arabs call him.

for example, iranians call germany alman, germans call germany duetchland, and english speaking people call germany germany.

and enough with the turkish sources.  you still dont dont even seem to want to know that most historians call him persian.

does anybody know why he was called Rumi? Rumi in Arabic means "Roman"

Yes, because the Seljuqs conquered Rumi (Byzantine) territory and were thus regionally known (by Arabs, Iranians and themselves apparently) as Rumis because of the territory they governed.  I think this much more the case when teh empire split into three, it was called Rum to idenitfy it from the Seljuqs of Iran.

Molana was a naturlised Rumi, his father was invited to Konya from Balkh by a Seljuq Sultan.

Ibn Khaldun on Persians

…It is a remarkable fact that, with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars…in the intellectual sciences have been non-Arabs…thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent…they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar…great jurists were Persians… only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes apparent, 'If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it"…The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts…This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture."

The Muqaddimah, Translated by F. Rosenthal (III, pp. 311-15, 271-4 [Arabic]; R.N. Frye (p.91)

well ofcourse, the arabs werent exactly civilised when the conquered all that land, they were like the mongols, just knew how the kill and conquer. it was the Persians that did all the cultural work.

no wonder isfahan was named as the cultural capitol of the islamic world.

Not true. If Arabs were like Mongols, they would have been assimilated by other cultures by now. How many Mongols are there in the Middle East today? 

Also it is not true that Persians did all the cultural work. Semitic areas outside the Arab peninsula, such as the fertile crescent and of course Egypt, were as advanced as Persia. And Islamic culture at its height florished everywhere, from Iberia to India.

Isfahan was a cultural centre of course. But Damascus, Bagdad, Alexandria, Kurtuba, Samarkand, and later Istanbul were all at least as significant at various points in time.

przn41ife I love u. Everything u say is so true. All these Arabs have taken the claim for algebra and all the sciences which Iranians have pursued. They keep trying to call them Turks or Arabs.

It doesn't matter if u were born in Baghdad, Turkey, or Afghanistan. Whether ur a Kurd, a Tajik, a Persian. As long as you speak Iranian, and follow Iranian customs, you are an Iranian. Not an Arab. in fact many of their names are Arabized versions of Iranian names. Like Al-Khwarizmi comes from the Iranian place Khwarezm.

What is it in the Iranian psyche that they always see themselves as victims, they seem to be stuck in an eternal kerbala. They are forever cautious and suspecting.

My maternal and paternal grandfathers spoke Persian along with three other languages, Persian was especially used for composing poetry.  But that does not make them Persians. Why all this hatred for the turks, for many turks patronized the Persian language. They helped preserve skills of Persian artisans by keeping them in employment and appreciating their contribution. 

At the same time to incorporate anyone who speaks Persian as an ethnic Persian is incorrect. A geographical use of the term Iranian on incorporate non-Persian groups would be acceptable.

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Isfahan has never attained the same grandeur as Baghdad, Damascus, Samarkand, Cordoba and Grenada. Arabs gave YOU the Islamic culture YOU now practice!, YOU write in the Arabic script! YOU follow an Arab prophet! wake up and come to terms with it.

Man its the superiority complex issue with alot of internet kiddies (not exclusively iranians, i seen nationalist arabs and turks, and they make me sick).

http://muslimscience.8m.com/main.htm - http://muslimscience.8m.com/main.htm

Here is a website mentioning muslim scientists(in arabic), don't be afraid for you non-muslims, they don't steal your ethnicity or sodomize your scientists. Just to make a point, arabs or turks are not stealing anything, its you guys getting hyped on every minor issue related to your ethnicity.

This is only your opinion.

please define the so called "islamic" culture. The term islamic is false. What makes a mix of Roman, Persian, greec and even Indian architecture to "islamic" architecture? why schould Turks and Iranian scientists be "islamic"? Why should be Iranian poets like Ferdowsi and Omar Khayam be "islamic"? from them we know they were not religiuose at all. So what is Islamic culture? nothing but a big lie.

So what? When the arabs came and laid their swords on our throat and said "convert to islam, or die", so there is a font change not far away. Be proud at it! And the arabic font isn't arabic at all, arabs adopted it from Phonicier

I find the wording this section for wikipedia interesting

Molana Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Balkhi or Celâladin Mehmet Rumi ^[1](Persian: ãæáÇäÇ ÌáÇá ÇáÏíä ãÍãÏ ÈáÎì , Arabic: ÌáÇá ÇáÏíä ãÍãÏ Ñæãí) (September 30, 1207 – December 17, 1273 CE) (also known as Molana, Molavi, Mawlvi, Mawlana, meaning our guide or our master in Arabic and Persian, or Mevlana meaning our guide in Turkish) was a Persian Sufi poet, jurist, theologian and teacher of Sufism who was born in Balkh (then a city of the Greater Khorasan province of Persia, now part of Afghanistan) and died in Konya (in present-day Turkey). His birth place and native tongue point towards a Persian heritage. He also wrote his poetry in Persian and his works are widely read in Iran and Afghanistan where the language is spoken. Yet, he is adored to such a degree that citizens of Turkey, Pakistan, and India sometimes consider him one of their own.

Before Islam, Iran was greater, after, it wasn't - how do we see ourselves as victims? It was like going down a notch. Would you be happy?

What hatred for Turks?  Why do you hate Persians?  Many Pakistanis seem to claim that they are descended from Persians or Arabs.

I think miller covered this one pretty much.

Yes it had, before Teimur destroyed it, even the walls of the city, they were so wide that two horse drawn carriages could pass one another side by side (from Teimur's own memoirs).  Baghdad was a city founded by Persians, the name means god-given in Middle Persian, and if it wasn't for Abu Muslim's (Persian from Khorasan) army the Abassids would never have come to power he also selected Baghdad to be their capital.  They repayed him well, tricked him into entering their courts once all of their dirty work was done, then murdered him, in a typical betrayal. 

Arabs gave us nothing but Islam.

Who practises?  There is no such thing as an Islamic culture... tell me how Iranian culture is an Islamic culture? Iranian culture is Iranian and most of its citizens are muslims, big deal, there is no other culture like Iran's, therefore it is unique and Iranian.

Actually no...  the script is Phoenecian in base origin and more closely resembles Sassanid script than anything else, Arabic script was actually runic...

Has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard, only people who practise islam follow an Arab prophet, and let me get u in on how ignorant some of them can be...  My grandmother's friend, had been to haj and everything - she was surprised i told her Mohamad and Ali and Hossein were Arabs and not Iranian.  So maybe waking up will be that realisation and coming to terms with it will be sidelining it.

i believe baghdad was under the control of Persians   so that makes isfahan and baghdad, and egyptians werent arabs till arabised so that takes alexandria out, and turks were also not arab so that takes the turks out and neither was damascas till arabised.

so basically, what did arabs do? dont get me wrong, there were some arabs who did stuff but its a fact that turks and persians built islam.

i myself am not muslims, nor am i any other religion (i believe religion is man made, and has nothing to do with God), but i can look at the facts and see that all arab muslims brought was death and suffering.

they were no better than the mongols, they came, they killed, they destroyed, then they were out of history.

after the brief arabic entry into history (which was 700 years in spain but only a few hundred in the middle east) they were again conquered by turks and persians.

so what did arabs do? nothing. it was turks and persians who made islam, and the islamic empires so great.

Now here is a smart person, everything you say is true!

there is no ummah, i hate muslims who say "islamic" scientist bla bla bla

islamic isnt an ethnicity! we are Persian, not islamic, Turks are Turks, not islamic...

the only one who say "lets share everything since we are all muslims" are the ones who have no accomplishments of themselves, like arabs for instance, they have made no contribution to human society.  no offense to arabs, but its the truth.  and for those who think im picking on arabs, i'll say the same about native americans, they did not affect human society much...

so im not being one sided, i'm just speaking my mind.

you mean like how turks claim they won WWI, how turks claim their superiority over kurds and armenians, how turks attack Iranian history for their own nationalist puposes....

like i said before, you guys cannot put modern borders on countries that existed hundreds of years before, Rumi lived and died in Iranian terroritory at the time, and spoke and wrote Persian for his whole life, and learned a lot of his skill from other Persians.

The generalisations is appalling, i know you guys get in a tizzy when arabs or turks are mentioned, but wow.

Also Zagros, do tell how the Arabic Script was based from Phoenician?

Southern Arabian != Arabic, Southern Arabian could be runic, but the arabic script was derived from Nabatean Arabic which is derived from Aramaic.

Also guys saying the arabs did nothing, grow up.

oh what with the paranoia !! 

anyway about the scripts arab used , there are many and the latest one was developed in the 4th centruey AD, and it came from Aramatic script which came from the Phoenician one .

also the Greek scripts came from the Phonenician scripts.

the Phonenician were Semitic too, so they were  family

No one said here Arabs did nothing, Arabs did many things in fact. But i find it is offensive, if someone claims Iranians has nothing by their owns and they are due to Arabs their culture and civilization.

Man maziar, with all due respect, read the posts above mine.

The guy's point is still null, our Pahlavi script had the same origin, as did the Parthian and Cunieform before it...  Before Iranians became sedentary they had no writing system, history and religion was recorded mentally by the magi and passed down orally.

no one is saying that arabs did nothing, we are just saying they didnt do much.

and isnt it funny how all the so called "arab cities" were founded and prospering before the arab invasions, like alexandria, damascus, baghdad, etc... 

and one more piece of evidence that the arabs never did much of their own is the fact that none of the major cities were on the arabian peninsula.

If u went down a notch because of islam, how do u imagine u will go up a notch?

I am sorry if i came across as hating persians for i certainly dont. Let me make it clear<< I LOVE PERSIANS, with minor exceptions.I just got a bit sick of some of the winging and blame game.  Look on the positive side, it gave u a chance to get it all of ur chest.

A lot of non-muslim persians are in complete denial over the cultural impact of islam on persian life. I mean what r the ayatullahs about, if not religion. U can not deny that the clergy didnt shape society. Islam plays the dominant role in most moslem countries. For islam is not reduced to a theology, but is a way of life.

As for following the arab prophet( which most iranians have been doing for 1400 yrs) commands his followers: "If u love God and his prophet, then do as god and his prophet command u to". It is even called  Islamic Republic of Iran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_republic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_republic

    Please. Please tell us when was it that our lovely linguists found that Aramaic script came from Phoenician? just an approximately date is fine (if exists!) or you could just give us a link (u'll probably find one http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pgj/planetes/jupiter.jpg - here )

    or maybe you could even tell us when Arabic (as a language) was found.

the Phonenician were Semitic too, so they were  family

    do you even know what Semetic means? please don't look it up in google now! (btw, http://www.alltooflat.com/geeky/elgoog/m/index.cgi - google is here. Ah... what am i thinking? u're using it everytime )

    do you know what is the difference between 'language' and 'script' ? You know, I reallly hope you know this one, otherwise...... sorry but then you're in the wrong place!

Your information is based on ignorance, the Ayatollahs were not a creation of the Iranian people, at first they were Safavid tools, then they pretty much disappeared from political life until the 19/20th century when the Brits started rousing them - they were even funded by the Brits from the 40s through to the 70s. 

And their path to power in Iran was full of deceit, treachery and betrayal.  I encourage you to read:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/islamic_revolution/revolution_and_iran_after1979_1.php - http://www.iranchamber.com/history/islamic_revolution/revolu tion_and_iran_after1979_1.php

no offence to muslims, but mecca had no cultural or economic value and even today it does not.  today mecca is still underdeveloped compared to other saudi cities.  mecca is only important because of its religious significance and only because of that, nothing else.

you people still dont tell me if arabs are responsible for such great thing, then why were none of them in their own territory?

and yes, the arab islamic invasions were a disaster for iran.  by saying that the arab islamic invasions werent a disaster, we would also be saying that the mongol invasions werent a disaster.

the arab invasions were no different than the mongol invasions, just killing, fighting, and destruction.

another thing i hate, people talking about things they dont understand.

facts you need to know before making comments like the above:

1) Iranians were FORCED into islam.  many iranians were killed because they did not convert, many left iran to go to india to save their lives, and the reason we use the arabic script today is because the arabs, during their occupation BANNED the Persian language in an attempt to arabise us! but we survived, we maintained our culture, our language, we kicked the arabs out, the only thing we didnt do was kick islam out, if we had done that we wouldnt be in the situation we are today!

2) the islamic revolution in iran was based on a lie. take it from my parents who lived through it! the mullahs came to power by promisind democracy! they even had a democratic liberal minded person in power named bazargan! after the mullahs had enough control over the military and the country, they purged out all the liberal politicians including Bazargan, which they had previously supported, they purged many mullahs who were against mixing of religion and politics, and then they brought sharia law.  Khomeni was a lier!  Most of the people in iran at the time of the revolution, like my parents, supported the BAZARGAN GOVERNMENT believing that democracy would come but they were lied to!

3) the mullahs are corrupt! they kill, torture, and imprison! they steal money from the country, many of them have become rich since the revolution, and they are using the plain and simple muslims as a support base to stay in power.

4) islamic culture is basically Persian culture and turkish culture.  Islam in iran is iranian, the culture is iranian, even shia'ism was started by Iranians. so the islamic culture in iran has nothing to do with arab and turkish islamic culture, it is PURELY OUR OWN CREATION (the culture i mean).

you dont know anything about Iran. next time dont make comments like the above.

Or what?...just chill out, there is no need to get threatening. By the way the continuous moaning about how u were forced into this, hoodwinked into that, is a poor reflection on ur self.

Get over it, talk to someone about it, let it out.

U r indeed right to reason as above. But my point was that the name itself incorporates Islamic, that is how the country is identified. Some forumers believe that by ignoring some aspects of their history they can belong exclusively to the "Persian empire of bygone days".

I do understand the predicament of non-muslim Persians since they can not identify with that history, but they totally ignore the obvious ramifications of an enduring more recent past.

a major city is a city that is economically or culturally important.  religious cities are not important for those reasons. think of it this way, if there was no islam, mecca wouldnt even be on the map, but damascus, isfahan, cairo, etc... would still be on the map.

you are paranoid, there is not threat. i just said dont make stupid comments that you cannot back up with evidence.

and i let everything out, for example i am talking to you about

and you'd be surprised how many iranians have rejected islam since the mullahs took power, like most of my family. 

look at the facts, what has islam brought to iran except suffering?

I was not talking about muslim attitude of pre islamic history, but of non-muslim attitude of post islamic period. I dont by any means say that in absoloute terms, for i dont know how they feel eitherway. May be u can expand on it.

The kind of attitude that i am talking about is embodied in the event of 1971 presepolis prade where The shah had a lapse in history.

Ramin, it doesnt bother me if iranians r muslims or non-muslim, but some people develop an amnesia and start ranting on about artificial history, with militant zeal. They join the grand parade of the shah, who i think spent $70 or 170 million dollars on glorification of the past, when that money should have been used for a brighter futre.

Well we all remember what happened to him anyway.

@Malizai_, the parade at 1971 wasn't a very important reason for the islamic revolution. There were many reasons.

one of the important reason for the islamic revoution was in my opinion was the Shah's plan to modernizing Iran very fast and at any cost. He has missid to modernize the Iranians effectively, so, Iranians had a modern life but were still conservative and superstitiouse in heart. For example it is clear that a patriarchal society like Iran won't tolerate female police at the crossways. The shah hadn't tried a deep and groundly modernization, but dealt superficially.

Another reson was the Shah himself. He was weak and had a unstable character. And so comes that he wasn't able to choose the right decision as he saw people rised against him.

These was only two reasons of much more reasons for the revolution. The reason why Iranian revolted against Shah is very complex and need to be analyzed. So you can't claime people rised against Shah only becouse of the parade 1971.

please tell me, do you know how many other countries glorify their past.  COUNTRIES THAT HAVE PASTS, TEND TO GLORIFY THEM, countries that dont... well we all know what they do

and lets weigh the options, secular iran that has respect in the world, or islamic iran with no respect that gets humiliated every day. i think i'll go with the first choice, along with many other iranians who have realised their mistakes during the revolution.

When I was on my way to Persepolis a couple of years ago in a taxi, I criticised the event and the driver defended it and the Shah, relatvely the cost was nothing. It was just one ceremony and WHY not? Every other country can have them, why not Iran?  Why should we not celebrate our history, every other nation seems to do it...

This event was used as propaganda against the Shah's regime by the British through their BBC Persian service.  What's the saying in Iran? "Lift up a mullah's beard and you will see the Made in England mark"

Originally posted by ramin Paranoia indeed. (btw, I'm still waiting for your respond forum_posts.asp?TID=9112&PN=1">here ).

to what?

the insulting posts? go read that thread again from the begining.

no, its just a peice of information for people like you to learn something.

?

not sure what you are asking, i was talking about the script arab are using now. it came from Aramatic script which came from Phoenician.

want a link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arabic_alphabet - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arabic_alphabet

dont trust wikipedia? then do your own search and tell us the hidden facts.

Originally posted by ramin the Phonenician were Semitic too, so they were  family     do you even know what Semetic means? please don't look it up in google now! (btw, http://www.alltooflat.com/geeky/elgoog/m/index.cgi - google is here. Ah... what am i thinking? u're using it everytime )     do you know what is the difference between 'language' and 'script' ? You know, I reallly hope you know this one, otherwise...... sorry but then you're in the wrong place!

i do know the difference between the language and the script and dont see why you are asking that?

i didnt say anything that showing that i dont know the difference between the languge and the script.

the phonecian were semitic , they used a script which later was developed to become arabic and greek and many other scripts.

whats so hard to get?

lol

Good points well made.

Malizai,

Everybody knows that the Shah was decadent, but spending money on Cultural Preservation is always important.  You ofcourse are Pakistani, and Pakistan is only a country that is only 50+ years old, and even my grandmother is older than Pakistan.  Just because Pakistan as a nation does not have enough history to speak of does not mean you should ridicule the Cultural bias of other people who realize the potential of their nation. 

I think the more Iranians can culturally identify with their own, and know their history, the better they will be in protecting and preserving their future.

Thank you Afghanan, a very good point. I count Pakistan to the greater Iran and i think Iranians share their history with Pakistanis too. So he could speak about Iranian history as his own, but it depends on his attitude.

In any one country there are many people that have a different past, but they all have a past, everyone remember their best throw.

LOVL, just intrigued to now what they do.

I hold the view rightly or wrongly, that anyone who measure themselves by the others yardstick doesn't measure upto anything. People wont respect u for ur past but for what u r. Khwarizmi, is enough respected for he had something to offer. Anyhow, i wish u good look which ever route u take.

everyone has a past, but no all have a past they can glorify.  for example, what does a country like UAE have to glorify about their past? what does a nation like brunei have to glorify about their past?

so no, not everyone has a past they can glorify.  the nations that do, should glorify them and preserve them.

steal the history of others.

through out history, empires have been successful by ADAPTING! the romans had no problem adapting the technological and cultural advancements of the people they conquered.  the europeans had no problem adapting middle eastern advancements into their society to make themselves stronger. the japanese had no problem adapting western technology to make themselves stronger. 

you have to look at the strongest most advanced nation, then adapt their ways to become successful. every nation has done it at one point or other.  so its muslims like you (i assume you are muslim because someone said you were pakistani) that keep the muslim world behind, thinking that adapting is bad

you have to adapt to become successful! you cannot just stay backwards!  and dont think of it as westernization, think of it as MODERNIZATION!

Firstly, let me state I am not going to discuss beliefs or nationalities because it has no bearing on history percieved or actual. The assumption was made by afghanaan because i told him my great grandfather had fluency in four languages amongst which was persian and i made comments on the durand line which ran through his greater afghanistan.

If u must know my creed, then it may be sufficient to quote Thomas Paine:

"my country is the world my religion is to do good".

Now to the matter at hand. We will start by discussing effects of self glorification and its merits. I will cite u the example of a Shah Reza Pahelivi--------->

After all the shah did to bathe Iran in the glories of the past for the world to see it in a new light. Do u know what the western world thought of him and the Iranians as a whole. Well, the following might give u an idea. U r forewarned it wont make pleasant reading.

Before arrival:

"According to recently emerged documents released in October 2001 to the Public Records Office in London, Queen Elizabeth was urged by the Foreign Office not to go as they feared the celebrations were likely to be "undignified and insecure"."

What the media was talking about at the time of the event:

 "the foreign media seemed to have been more interested in Haile Selassie's little dog Chu Chu and her diamond collar."

After the shahs death:

"Tragically, Mohammed Reza Shah, the last of a long line of Persian monarchs, ended his days like a modern version of the Flying Dutchman. When the Shah left Iran on January 16th, 1979, he could find refuge in no port and seemed cursed to wander forever. He went to Egypt, to Morocco, to the Bahamas, to Mexico, America and Panama. But no one wanted him to stay; he was a reject, a pariah, a figure to whom very little world sympathy attached, and virtually no government wanted to risk the angering of the fanatical ayatollahs."

About ur comments about the new born. (implied lesser nations).----->>

If i was to take the antagonistic position, i may say Iran became independent 12 yrs before India and Pakistan, and they both got their Nukes 7 yrs ago, while iran is still trying to get theirs. If they r allowed. It should be for u a source of embarrassment.

If I was to further say, iranians have been around for more than 2500 yrs and P & I only 50 odd yrs, it makes the situation worse.

Afghanistan been around as a country for 250 odd yrs and doesnt even have a functioning airline.
With life expectancy at birth, a pathetic and depressing 43 yrs. So no more comments on that front are needed.

forty percent of the Iranian population live under the poverty line, although i know it is because of isolationist polices of the west and due to no fault of the iranians themselves. But that is the stark reality which u choose to ignore, at the same time demonstrating an arrogance beyond belief.

I will take the example of the UAE rather then Brunei just to keep matters brief. Just like u can relate to a past 2500 yrs ago while residing in america, the arabs can relate to two through Ishmael to the abrahmic inheritance and all the way back to Arabia Felix the aboriginal home of the arabs. Arabia Felix means Happy or flourishing Arabia in latin.

Here is a snippet of what Ptolemy had to say about them and ur countrymen:

"Part by part, again, Parthia, Media, and Persia are more closely familiar to Taurus and Venus; hence their inhabitants use embroidered clothing, which covers their entire body except the breast, and they are as a general thing luxurious and clean. Babylonia, Mesopotamia, and Assyria are familiar to Virgo and Mercury, and so the study of mathematics and the observation of the five planets are special traits of these peoples.

India, Ariana, and Gedrosia have familiarity with Capricorn and Saturn; therefore the inhabitants of these countries are ugly, unclean, and bestial.

The remaining parts of the quarter, situated about the center of the inhabited world, Idumaea, Coelé, Syria, Judaca, Phoenicia, Chaldaea, Orchinia, and Arabia Felix, which are situated toward the north-west of the whole quarter, have additional familiarity with the north-western triangle, Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius, and, furthermore, have as co-rulers Jupiter, Mars, and Mercury. Therefore these peoples are, in comparison with the others, more gifted in trade and exchange; they are more unscrupulous, despicable cowards, treacherous, servile, and in general fickle, on account of the aspect of the stars mentioned.

Of these, again, the inhabitants of Coelé, Syria, Idumaea, and Judaea are more closely familiar to Aries and Mars, and therefore these peoples are in general bold, godless, and scheming. The Phoenicians, Chaldaeans, and Orchinians have familiarity with Leo and the sun, so that they are simpler, kindly, addicted to astrology, and beyond all men worshippers of the sun.

The inhabitants of Arabia Felix are familiar to Sagittarius and Jupiter; this accounts for the fertility of the country, in accordance with its name, and its multitudes of spices, and the grace of its inhabitants and their free spirit in daily life, in exchange, and in business."

The sabean kingdom was an arabian kingdom and its past was more glorious than if not equal to the parsis.

U continually rant on about what should have been and not staying backwards. But u r a backward looking person i feel, who is clinging to past glories in face of a decrepit present. But so overwhelmed by past glories that he is failing to create new ones.

U need to be proactive, i would like to hear what u r doing to make ur country a better place.(of course u r not obliged to answer).

For the activist is not the person who says the river is dirty but the one that cleans it up.

your sources for these? and these were the only ones you could find? you obviously dont know how many other monarchs, and politicians were there.

Your own posts answers the question of why the shah wasnt harboured by anyone.

have you heard of the American Hostage situation? every country, even Israel, attempted to have good relations with the mullahs.

do you know how many times American presidents went to Iran, and how many times the shah went to the US? MANY TIMES

iran at that time was one of the most respected nations in the world at the time.  Iran was the US's main ally in the region, Iran was the west's main ally in the region.  The US had all its hopes for the region based on Iran, infact, even at the time of the revolution, the US proposed to Iranian generals that they would send their army in to help with a coup!

you boviously dont know anything about iranian history. Iranians have 7000 years of history.  and Iran has always been called Iran. Even Cyrus the Great called it Iran.

Persia is the western name for Iran, much like Germany is the name adopted by the english language, even though germans have always called it dutschland.

and pakistan is doing much better huh? pakistan has all the benefits: secularism, western support, good relations with the world, etc...

and yet pakistan is still poor, much poorer than Iran.

and you gave the reasons why Iran is poor in your own post so i dont have to explain anything there. 

No one is saying that arabs didnt exist. all im saying is that arabs dont have a "civilised" history.

and you do realise that the romans and Parthians were bitter enemies dont you? and no where in your post is it evident that he describes arabs as better than Persians. that is just the falacy you created for yourself.

infact, arabs as a nations were insignificant at the time period.

I know many monarchs were present including Haile Selassie's little dog Chu Chu.

I think that last post kind of like flew over or around ur head.

I did not ask u any questions except one which like i said u were not obliged to answer. The post was supposed to be an insight into the merits of self glorification and its uses. It did not help the shah and it wont help u.

Moral of the story is people are more interested in what u have to offer them. They respect the presence of oil more then the grand parade. Grand parade wont get the attention that oil will.

U keep bringing up pakistan, which is as about as much of a botheration  to me as is iran. Yes it is quite pathetic as well, but then it doesnt claim to be part of a "civilization" dating back to the last iceage.

"The sabean kingdom was an arabian kingdom and its past was more glorious than if not equal to the parsis."

It is an if not statement, i am not saying they were better i am saying that they could have been, but not less.

Maybe ptolemy was biased towards persians i am not fully sure, it could be because they just sacked presopolis and concquered the whole of persia.

http://portal.unesco.org/education/en/ev.php-URL_ID=15825&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html - http://portal.unesco.org/education/en/ev.php-URL_ID=15825&am p;URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

http://www.arab.net/yemen/yn_ancient.htm - http://www.arab.net/yemen/yn_ancient.htm

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/YEM/Yemen.html#AnnualReports - http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/YEM/Yemen.html#AnnualReports

Yes Indeed, the famous GREEK geographer  Claudius Ptolemy born in ALEXANDRIA and who came about 400 yrs after Ptolemy(alexanders companion). But it is not too old a history for a people brought up on the Legends of ALEXANDER, how can they forget they live in a place called alexandria. I was hypothesising that if u think u didint get an  adequeate review it could be because of a victor vanquished relationship. Y do u always think i hve something aginst persians, i dont.

I have personally believed that he was spurned on to become a geographer because of stories myths and legends of Alexander in far flung lands.

Now the point was that the arabs too had an ancient civilized history and it didnt spring out of the deserts with the expansion of islam. Although may be not as old when compared with the persians. So u shouldnt belittle a people because they live in the UNITED ARAB EMIRATES.

no, arab culture and arab civilisation has never come close to persian civilisation and culture.

and i am not saying this because i have a racist agenda, i am saying this because the facts speak for themselves! just like how russia never had the culture and civilisation that italy has.

besides islam and the arabic script (both by force) what did the give us? dont misconstrew my question, i dont know much about the arab influence on iran and i would like to enlighten me on its influence.

I am glad that u at least agree on arab civilisation. I wont bring culture into the equation for two reasons, one because i am ignorant of both cultures, and two because it is difficult enough to discuss civilisations.

well why dont you tell me about arab civilisation and culture. post some articles, stuff like that?

i obviously dont know about it, if you do, instead of not doing anything why dont you enlighten me?

ok darling, here goes.

Petra-------->

http://www.see-jordan.com/petra.html - http://www.see-jordan.com/petra.html