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Cultural Genocide in Azerbaijan

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7875
Printed Date: 09-Jun-2024 at 12:11
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Topic: Cultural Genocide in Azerbaijan
Posted By: Artaxiad
Subject: Cultural Genocide in Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 15:04

http://www.raa.am/Juga/MapJu.gif">

Ever since the Nagorno-Karabagh war, Azerbaijan adopted a policy of cultural genocide. The Armenian churches of Karabagh and Nakhichevan suddenly became "Albanian churches" to the eyes of the Azerbaijani government, even though Caucasian Albania was located in the north-east of Azerbaijan. Then, Azerbaijan continued by destroying traces of Armenian life in Nakhichevan (an autonomous Azerbaijani exclave). Recently, Azerbaijani troops proceeded by destroying the Armenian khachkars of Jugha/Julfa. They attempted doing this in 1998 and 2000, and now, in 2005.

The Armenians of Jugha were known as rich merchants who traded in India, Holland, and elsewhere. These khachkars were as rich as those Armenians. Some of the stone-crosses were 600 years old. Infortunately, most of them were destroyed last  week.

Here's a video: http://www.hairenik.com/Haireniktv/HA_TV_Clip04.htm - http://www.hairenik.com/Haireniktv/HA_TV_Clip04.htm

Here are some pictures: http://www.cathcil.org/v04/doc/Photos/Pictures109.htm - http://www.cathcil.org/v04/doc/Photos/Pictures109.htm

Note that it was carried out in an organized way. There were trucks, hammers, and other tools... It was also done during the day, and not during the night. They surely didn't intend to keep this a secret. 

They aren't able to take on the living, so they're disturbing the dead? 

Is this something that the world is supposed to ignore?




Replies:
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 16:41

I think its funny how people fault Armenians for rising up against a government that carries out such policies. Now that theres documented proof, its obvious to everyone what this government is trying to do.



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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 21:52
Artaxiad, i never knew that Nakhichevan was originally armenian, so it was enlightening in that respect. As for these policies, im not completely suprised, but still disgusted.


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 10:23

Artaxiad knows very well what they did to "cover" "hide" and "remove" permanently Turkish herritage in those area's. Like covering, hiding and destroying Turkish NAMES and GRAVES, BUILDINGs also covering Turkish writings on the walls with cement. So they has the right to say"Here hasnt any Turk lived before as you see..."

Guys f**k off whit those lies.



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Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 12:14

ArmenianSurvival,

The funny thing is that they still have claims over Karabagh and Syunik (which is the Armenian province seperating Nakhichevan from Azerbaijan proper). How could the inhabitants of Karabagh live under Azeri rule? It's obvious that the Azerbaijanis would gladly crush Armenians, instead of stone-crosses. 

DayI,

The major Muslim power in the Caucasus was the Safavid Empire, not the Ottoman Empire. Most of the Islamic buildings in Armenia were built by Iranians, not by Azeris (who had more of a tendency to destroy).

As you see in these pictures, Armenians preserve Islamic cultural monuments:

The mosque in Shushi, Karabagh:

http://www.armeniapedia.org/images/e/ed/Blue_mosque-yerevan-dcp1329.jpg">

Mosque in Yerevan:

But what we get in return is seen in that video.

More about Nakhichevan : http://www.armenianow.com/?action=viewArticle&AID=1045&IID=1040&lng=eng - http://www.armenianow.com/?action=viewArticle&AID=1045&a mp;IID=1040&lng=eng

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Posted By: Alborz
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 20:09

thats awful. much like how the greeks keep destroying old ottoman mosques in their tracian territories.

Originally posted by Artaxiad

The major Muslim power in the Caucasus was the Safavid Empire, not the Ottoman Empire. Most of the Islamic buildings in Armenia were built by Iranians, not by Azeris (who had more of a tendency to destroy).

Azeris are Iranian. so yes, they were built by azeris too. Let me just say, the today's republic of azerbaijan was called Arran same with its inhabitants before the 20th century. also Ottman empire had nothing to do with the present day karabakh and the republic.



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"Who so shall worship Ahura Mazda, divine blessing will be upon him, both while living and when dead" Darius The Great


Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 21:12
Originally posted by Alborz

thats awful. much like how the greeks keep destroying old ottoman mosques in their tracian territories.

Let's not hear any of this b/s ok? These "mosques" were nothing more than churches converted into mosques. What happened to all the churches in Turkish Thrace and Western turkey? Of course these are ripped down, just like mosques in Greece were.

Originally posted by Artaxiad

The major Muslim power in the Caucasus was the Safavid Empire, not the Ottoman Empire. Most of the Islamic buildings in Armenia were built by Iranians, not by Azeris (who had more of a tendency to destroy).

Azeris are Iranian. so yes, they were built by azeris too. Let me just say, the today's republic of azerbaijan was called Arran same with its inhabitants before the 20th century. also Ottman empire had nothing to do with the present day karabakh and the republic.



Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 21:48

Azeris are Iranian. so yes, they were built by azeris too. Let me just say, the today's republic of azerbaijan was called Arran same with its inhabitants before the 20th century. also Ottman empire had nothing to do with the present day karabakh and the republic.

I was trying to say that the Armenian Republic's Islamic monuments are Safavid Iranian, not Ottoman Turkish.



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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 03:11

Let's not hear any of this b/s ok? These "mosques" were nothing more than churches converted into mosques. What happened to all the churches in Turkish Thrace and Western turkey? Of course these are ripped down, just like mosques in Greece were.

Well Infact  half true,I am at Akdamadeni,Yozgat, and here I can see(with  eyes, didnt interest much with number of mosque or church) two mosque, and two church.

One of this church is converted to mosque, other one is a hospital.

They are not used as church, because there are not any christian here, but they are not ripped down too.(Infact I heard  some greeks come here, If can find some, you can ask them)

You can still find a lot church in Turkey, some of them  maintained and turned other building, like mosque, hospital. other notmaintened, but they are hunderds still here, after 100 year.There were not a systamatic destruction against churchs. I cannot say this for greece, how much mosque you have there?

Artaxiad safavids iranians were also turk, and  If looked safavid areas,  you can see most numerous ethnic at safavids are azeris.

I think as much as we own ottoman heritage,  azeris also have safavid heritage.

The Armenian churches of Karabagh and Nakhichevan suddenly became "Albanian churches" to the eyes of the Azerbaijani government,

Just  like azeris mosques becomed persian mosque

By the way, only two mosque? What azeris did is worse than what armenians did,  but armenians also destroyed a lot mosque.

 

 



Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 05:00
Originally posted by Mortaza

What azeris did is worse than what armenians did,  but armenians also destroyed a lot mosque.


     Mosques and churches were probably both blasted away during the war. There is no war now, the Azeri government is just carrying out rediculous policies.

     I have actually not even seen proof of mosques being destroyed in Karabagh. 25% of the population of Karabagh was Azeri, and they had a mosque which still stands today. Remember, the 25% of Azeris had only been in Karabagh for no more than 70 years (Karabagh became part of Azerbaijan from 1920-1988), while Armenians had been there far longer, hence the many churches. Also many churches in Karabagh either have bullet holes all over them (one from the 13th century), and the others had to be rebuilt after the war. Armenians also rebuilt the Azeri mosque in Shushi, which was where much blood was spilled (it was the decisive battle of the war). Also in Shushi, the Azeri military had their barracks set up inside an 18th-century Armenian church, so the Armenians wouldnt attack them.

Originally posted by Mortaza

By the way, only two mosque?


Yes, youre talking about lands that have had an Armenian majority since before the time of Christ. Not many permanent foreign communities were set up in mountainous Armenia, especially not in Karabagh, which is even more isolated.

Originally posted by Mortaza

Just  like azeris mosques becomed persian mosque


In Karabagh everyone refers to it as an Azeri mosque, because thats what it is. The one in Yerevan is a Persian mosque, not Azeri.


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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 05:46

ArmenianSurvival

IIRC 200.000 azeris was exiled from ROA, do you realy think, they had only  one mosque(and It looks like a persian mosque)?  or do you  realy think there were a war,  inside of ROA? so how do we know,  200.000 azeris  lived at ROA?

By the way,  when did that persian mosque built? I didnt know, there were persian people who lived ROA. is  it  new?

 

There is no war now, the Azeri government is just carrying out rediculous policies.

Yes, I agree  about this.  Attacking historical herritage is  complately a guilt.



Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 09:58

By the way,  when did that persian mosque built? I didnt know, there were persian people who lived ROA. is  it  new?

The Blue mosque of Yerevan was built in 1765 by Hossein Ali Khan. It was repaired with Iranian financial support.

http://www.iranembassy.am/relations.php?module=mosque.html - http://www.iranembassy.am/relations.php?module=mosque.html

Most Iranians in Armenia are students.

 

We forgot about the mosque of Aghdam, Karabagh.

Most of the town was destroyed during the war, except the mosque.



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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 02:26
Originally posted by Mortaza

ArmenianSurvival

IIRC 200.000 azeris was exiled from ROA, do you realy think, they had only  one mosque(and It looks like a persian mosque)?  or do you  realy think there were a war,  inside of ROA? so how do we know,  200.000 azeris  lived at ROA?


     As for mosques inside the Republic of Armenia, there are still mosques. Theres not that many, but if you look at modern churches, they are also very rare. It is hard to find a church in Armenia that has been built within the last 100 years. Most of them are ancient. So if you compare modern mosques with modern churches in Armenia, the Azeris probably had more mosques-per-person than Armenians had churches.

     Also, most of those Azeris were not in the Republic of Armenia, they were in Karabagh and mainly the surrounding regions. If you lived in eastern Turkey and Kurdish rebels militarily took the region, would you stay or fear that you would be killed? I dont think you would stay, I sure wouldnt. The Azeris werent exiled, they started leaving as the Azeri army was slowly being pushed further and further back into Azerbaijan by Armenian forces. Had they stayed, who knows what could have happened. But they chose to leave. Now, it might not have been much of a "choice", but given the circumstances of war, its better to leave than to stick around and find out what happens. If I was an Azeri, I would leave. Likewise if I was an Armenian and the Armenians lost, I would leave as well. Staying under foreign occupation is not a safe thing to do in that part of the world, I'm sure you know that as well as I do. That is why Armenians in Karabagh dont want to be under Azerbaijan, and its why Azeris left the occupied regions of Azerbaijan as their army was leaving, before the Armenians fully took over.

     Also as I said, those 200,000 or so Azeris had only been in the region for around 70 years, and they were still a minority in Karabagh (because most of them were in regions surrounding Karabagh, and not actually in the province). The reason they left is because Armenia also occupies parts of Azerbaijan outside of Karabagh, and im sure those Azeris didnt want to live under Armenian occupation. This is the sad reality of war. Those regions surrounding Karabagh are basically a military buffer, as well as a way of breaking and preventing the Azeri blockade of Armenia and Karabagh. Which Azeri (or human being for that matter) would want to live in a military buffer? Better things are waiting for them in Baku, which is where most of them went. Azeri nationalists accusing Armenians of genocide didnt help, either. Thats why many Azeris left. Although I'm sure there were soldiers who were irresponsible to say the LEAST, there is no evidence whatsoever of exiles or genocide. You can't take a couple of individual atrocities and call it 'genocide', because by that standard, we can say Azeris also committed genocide.

     Speaking of exiles, what do you think about the Azeri exile of Armenians from Nakhichevan? The reason Armenians didnt "leave out of fear" as I explained earlier, is because Nakhichevan was given to Azerbaijan by Stalin, and not through war. Thus, Armenians had no reason to be scared of Azeri rule at first. So what happened to these Armenians? No one ever talks about that.

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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:04
It's a typical armenian work; Thieving.




Trkn herşeyi gzeldir ve herşeyden gzeldir. (mehmet emin yurdakul)



Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:13

 now that's a funny non-recognized map I'd say, aren't you guys tired of spreading such lies, including the map by the way.

 



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:19

seems to me you guys are making ''genocide''  out of everything, and the next genocide will be the ''economical genocide''

 



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:48

this is no better than what the taleban did.

im sorry, but this action by the azeribaijani army is disgusting. and this goes to anyone who does such things.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:54
occupying 20% of Azerbaijan is very disgusting too and denying it even worse!

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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:55

Originally posted by Luv_ya_Azerbaijan

occupying 20% of Azerbaijan is very disgusting too and denying it even worse!

iran isnt occuping anything 

proove that we are occuping azerbaijan.

and what does that have to do with cultural genocide?



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:56
Originally posted by Mortaza

ArmenianSurvival

IIRC 200.000 azeris was exiled from ROA, do you realy think, they had only  one mosque(and It looks like a persian mosque)?  or do you  realy think there were a war,  inside of ROA? so how do we know,  200.000 azeris  lived at ROA?

By the way,  when did that persian mosque built? I didnt know, there were persian people who lived ROA. is  it  new?

 

There is no war now, the Azeri government is just carrying out rediculous policies.

Yes, I agree  about this.  Attacking historical herritage is  complately a guilt.

Of course the Azari mosques will be styles like Persian Mosques, Iran and Azarbaijan were part of the same territory up until 1821, since Achaemenids to Qajars. And both countries are Shie.



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Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:21
Originally posted by prsn41ife

Originally posted by Luv_ya_Azerbaijan

occupying 20% of Azerbaijan is very disgusting too and denying it even worse!

iran isnt occuping anything 

proove that we are occuping azerbaijan.

and what does that have to do with cultural genocide?

 not Iran you silly, Armenia, I'm talking about Nagorno karabakh + those other occupied zones



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: merced12
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:33
whats meaning of `karabagh`its armenian name?

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http://www.turks.org.uk/ - http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:33
Originally posted by Luv_ya_Azerbaijan

 not Iran you silly, Armenia, I'm talking about Nagorno karabakh + those other occupied zones


     Karabakh was an autonomous republic under Soviet rule, and after Soviet collapse, they voted to be part of Armenia. Azerbaijan illegally occupied the province with its military, and Armenians kicked them out. The only reason Armenians are holding part of Azerbaijan as a buffer zone is because if they don't, they will be landlocked within Azeri borders, and they will not be able to trade with anyone.

     So you're telling me that Azerbaijan was right by illegally occupying Karabakh? I would like to hear your opinion on this.


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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:38
Originally posted by merced12

whats meaning of `karabagh`its armenian name?


     Karabakh is the Turkish name for the province. Armenians have called the province "Artsakh" since ancient times (before Christ until today). I'm not sure what Artsakh means, I think it is just a name (since it is an ancient term, it is in the old Armenian language which isn't spoken anymore). Karabakh means "black garden", and it got that nickname after the 11th century Turkic invasions when the nomadic armies turned Karabakh into a "black garden", meaning that they destroyed much of the province.

     Nagorno is Russian for "mountainous". So Nagorno-Karabakh means "mountainous black garden".


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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

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Posted By: merced12
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:41
i think karabag means =land of vineyard or similar thing

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http://www.turks.org.uk/ - http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``


Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:42
 that was quite funny Armeniansurvival, no country in this world is recognizing your version of  Karabakh. It is well known that Nagorno-Karabakh  is recognized internationally as part of the Azerbaijan Republic, although since 1988 NK has been illegally occupied by Armenian military forces who are now seeking ways to legitimize their actions, but the world isn't buying that bull, thank God.



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:45

Originally posted by merced12

i think karabag means =land of vineyard or similar thing

kara=black  bag(bakh=the way you pronounce it in Russian)=garden, and Nagorno(russian)=mountanious

Mountanious blackgarden

and Artsakh is the Caucasian Albanian(our ancestors) name for Karabakh,



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:48
If you look at an ethnic map of Iran, you will see there are 700,000 Kermanji Kurds in Khorassan/Gorgan, a strange place for Kurds to be, right?   That is because Shah Abbas moved them there from Karabakh region after they refused to convert to Shiism and sided with Ottomans, they were replaced by Afshar Turkomen from eastern Iran.

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Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:50
dont you mean Karabakh Armenian military forces? you and some people here cant get over the fact that it was Nagorno-Karabakh, yes the same 150 thousand people republic that defeated you, not Armenia.

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Posted By: merced12
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:53

Originally posted by Zagros

If you look at an ethnic map of Iran, you will see there are 700,000 Kermanji Kurds in Khorassan/Gorgan, a strange place for Kurds to be, right?   That is because Shah Abbas moved them there from Karabakh region after they refused to convert to Shiism and sided with Ottomans, they were replaced by Afshar Turkomen from eastern Iran.

its very interesthing.

afshar=qaskay same thing??



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http://www.turks.org.uk/ - http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:54
Originally posted by Luv_ya_Azerbaijan

 that was quite funny Armeniansurvival, no country in this world is recognizing your version of  Karabakh. It is well known that Nagorno-Karabakh  is recognized internationally as part of the Azerbaijan Republic, although since 1988 NK has been illegally occupied by Armenian military forces who are now seeking ways to legitimize their actions, but the world isn't buying that bull, thank God.


     Northern Cyprus isn't recognized internationally, either, and thats not stopping Turkey, is it?

     I already said, Karabakh was an autonomous enclave within the Soviet Union, and it was LEGAL for them to vote to break away from Azerbaijan, and they did. It is Azerbaijan which broke international law by sending in its military to occupy the region AFTER the province decided it wanted to annex itself to Armenia. If you disagree, you can explain your version of events, instead of putting down my argument with no facts of your own.

Originally posted by merced12

i think karabag means =land of vineyard or similar thing


     The etymology of the term is more complicated than I thought. Here's what Wikipedia says:

In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language" title="Armenian language - Armenian it is called Լեռնային Ղարաբաղ, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration" title="Transliteration - translit. Lernayin Gharabagh). In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_language" title="Azerbaijani language - Azerbaijani , Dağlıq Qarabağ or Yuxarı Qarabağ, literally "mountainous black garden" or "upper black garden". In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language" title="Russian language - Russian : Нагорный Карабах, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration_of_Russian_into_English" title="Transliteration of Russian into English - translit. Nagornyy Karabakh). It is often referred to by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians" title="Armenians - Armenians as Artsakh ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language" title="Armenian language - Armenian : Արցախ). In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language" title="Persian language - Persian : قره باغ . The word "Karabakh" originated from Turkic "kara" (meaning "black") and Persian "bagh (باغ" (meaning "garden"), literally meaning "black garden." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh#endnote_bbc2005" class="external autonumber" title="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh#endnote_bbc2005 - [3] The name first appears in Georgian and Persian sources in 13 - 14th centuries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh#endnote_ASEv7" class="external autonumber" title="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh#endnote_ASEv7 - [4] . The related term Karabagh [krəba:] is described by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary" title="Oxford English Dictionary - Oxford English Dictionary as being used to denote a kind of patterned http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabakh_carpet" title="Karabakh carpet - rug originally produced in the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh

So the term "Karabagh" is half Turkish and half Persian in origin, according to this article.

Originally posted by Luv_ya_Azerbaijan

and Artsakh is the Caucasian Albanian(our ancestors) name for Karabakh


     It would be really interesting if you actually had proof of that they were your ancestors...not to mention the fact that it would go against any sober history of the region.


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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:55

to mamnikon:

 rightttt, so you're saying Armenia didn't fought with Azerbaijan??+ don't forget 1 billion USD millitairy budget from your beloved Russia, ahaa...

and besides that still doesn't change the fact of Armenia occupying 20% of Azerbaijan. face it, it can't be that hard



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:59
Originally posted by Luv_ya_Azerbaijan

 rightttt, so you're saying Armenia didn't fought with Azerbaijan??


     The Republic of Armenia was not involved in the conflict. Armenians in Karabakh fought Azerbaijan in order to stop their illegal occupation of the province.

Originally posted by Luv_ya_Azerbaijan

and besides that still doesn't change the fact of Armenia occupying 20% of Azerbaijan. face it, it can't be that hard


     The total of occupied land, including Karabagh (which legally was never part of an independent Azerbaijan), is only about 15%. And I already said, Armenians holding the buffer zone so they won't be land-locked within their enemies' borders.


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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:00
well, not until the fall of Lachin was Armenia reunited with Karabakh by land, after this, they could have helped  the Karabakh Armenians.

Armenia is not occupying anything, that land is ours and has always been, find some other place to burn...


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Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:07

Northern Cyprus isn't recognized internationally, either, and thats not stopping Turkey, is it?

     I already said, Karabakh was an autonomous enclave within the Soviet Union, and it was LEGAL for them to vote to break away from Azerbaijan, and they did. It is Azerbaijan which broke international law by sending in its military to occupy the region AFTER the province decided it wanted to annex itself to Armenia. If you disagree, you can explain your version of events, instead of putting down my argument with no facts of your own.
.

yes of course I can prove: read this from UNITED NATIONS

16. As a result of more than seven years of ongoing war, approximately 20 per cent of the entire territory of Azerbaijan, comprising Nagorny Karabakh and an area four times bigger than that region, has been occupied and held by the Armenian armed forces

20. Since the start of the aggression, more than 900 settlements have been looted and destroyed. Armenian aggression against Azerbaijan and the destruction of settlements goes hand in hand with barbaric looting and removal of property and material assets from occupied Azerbaijani areas to Armenia. The goods and material assets that are taken away are sold on to third countries and the proceeds are used to continue funding the war

here you go: http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/6deac92f7a29f4ed80256502005f498e?OpenDocument - http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/6deac92f7a29f4ed802565020 05f498e?OpenDocument


 



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:12

Originally posted by mamikon

well, not until the fall of Lachin was Armenia reunited with Karabakh by land, after this, they could have helped  the Karabakh Armenians.

Armenia is not occupying anything, that land is ours and has always been, find some other place to burn...

well, any proof perhaps??



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:12
hahaha, lol,

thats not "what the UN has said about it" its "Initial Reports of State Parties: Azerbaijan, 16/09/1996"

I. INTRODUCTION


1. The present report is the first report of the Government of Azerbaijan, presented in accordance with article 18, paragraph 1 of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women of 18 December 1979, to which Azerbaijan acceded on 10 July 1995. It deals with the legislative, judicial, administrative and other action undertaken by the Republic of Azerbaijan in order to comply with the provisions of the Convention.

nice try though, very nice


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Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:14
Originally posted by Luv_ya_Azerbaijan

Originally posted by mamikon

well, not until the fall of Lachin was Armenia reunited with Karabakh by land, after this, they could have helped  the Karabakh Armenians.

Armenia is not occupying anything, that land is ours and has always been, find some other place to burn...

well, any proof perhaps??



proof of what? I already said that Armenia could have helped Karabakh since they were connected after Azeries were evicted from Lachin


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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:24
Originally posted by mamikon

hahaha, lol,

thats not "what the UN has said about it" its "Initial Reports of State Parties: Azerbaijan, 16/09/1996"

I. INTRODUCTION



1. The present report is the first report of the Government of Azerbaijan, presented in accordance with article 18, paragraph 1 of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women of 18 December 1979, to which Azerbaijan acceded on 10 July 1995. It deals with the legislative, judicial, administrative and other action undertaken by the Republic of Azerbaijan in order to comply with the provisions of the Convention.

nice try though, very nice

yea i realised that also. its an azerbaijani report submitted to the UN, not by the UN.

lol, its just the Azeri point of view, nothing else, this isnt evidence.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:31

The dispute with Armenia over the Nagorno-Karabakh enclave remains unresolved. As a result, about 20% of Azerbaijan is occupied by Armenians and some 800,000 Azerbaijanis are refugees or internally displaced

http://www.usaid.gov/locations/europe_eurasia/countries/az/index.html - http://www.usaid.gov/locations/europe_eurasia/countries/az/i ndex.html

Between 1988 and 1994, Azerbaijan was engaged in a war with Armenian troops over the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh. A 1994 ceasefire ended the fighting, but left almost 20 percent of Azerbaijan's territory occupied by Armenian forces. The war produced over 800,000 internally displaced persons and refugees, currently over 10 percent of people living in Azerbaijan. The International Rescue Committee has provided relief and development assistance for internally displaced persons and war-affected communities in Azerbaijan since 1994

http://www.theirc.org/where/the_irc_in_azerbaijan.html - http://www.theirc.org/where/the_irc_in_azerbaijan.html

In an attempt to end the controversy, Moscow decided in January 1989 to take direct control over the disputed region. As the Soviet Union disintegrated in 1990-1991, the conflict turned into an all-out war, with Armenian forces (both from Karabakh and the Armenian Republic) taking Karabakh and a large portion of surrounding Azerbaijani land. As a result, by the time the last ceasefire was signed in 1994, 20 percent of Azerbaijan was occupied by Armenia and an estimated 750,000 Azeris had become refugees, in addition to the thousands of Armenian refugees.(5)

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue4/jv6n4a7.html - http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue4/jv6n4a7.html

In 1992, full-scale war between Azerbaijan and Armenia broke out. By the middle of the year, Armenia controlled the bulk of Nagorno-Karabakh and pushed further into Azerbaijani territory to establish the so-called Lachin Corridor, an umbilical cord linking the breakaway republic with Armenia proper. By 1993, Armenian forces had occupied nearly 20 percent of the Azerbaijani territory surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh and expelled hundreds of thousands of ethnic Azeris. That was followed up by a Russia-brokered ceasefire in 1994, which is how the situation has remained more than a decade later

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9148/nagornokarabakh.html - http://www.cfr.org/publication/9148/nagornokarabakh.html

 so, I provided international sources, how about you, will you do the same??



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:34

just wondering if you can show me a single country that is actually recognizing Karabakh as the territory of Armenia.....



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:35
the Azerbaijani Government's recollections of the war in Nagorno Karabakh constitutes as an international source?

why do I get the feelin you dont read the articles that you post...




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Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:38

I think you are actually the one who isnt reading very well, how many minutes did it actually take , 2, 3 .. so how about your sources, why isnt any country recognizing Karabakh as an Armenian territory..



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:42
sources for what?

I am not arguing with you I am pointing out your futile attempts at proving something (i dont know what you are trying to prove anyway either)

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Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:46
Jesus Christ, I just want you to show me a single country that recognizes  Karabakh, as an Armenian territory..

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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:50
I never said  a country recognized Karabakh as Armenian territory

but maybe you should go argue why Turkey is still holding part of Cyprus even though it is not recognized by any country...


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Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:52

 

 ahh so typical, what has Cyprus to do with all this in the first place

 



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:54
I am just pointing out your hypocrisy, nothing more

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Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:57

 thanks



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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:58
btw...welcome to AE

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Posted By: Luv_ya_Azerbaijan
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 19:59
 thank you!!!!!

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Turk milletlerinin birlik yoluna!!!!


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 20:06
Originally posted by merced12

Originally posted by Zagros

If you look at an ethnic map of Iran, you will see there are 700,000 Kermanji Kurds in Khorassan/Gorgan, a strange place for Kurds to be, right?   That is because Shah Abbas moved them there from Karabakh region after they refused to convert to Shiism and sided with Ottomans, they were replaced by Afshar Turkomen from eastern Iran.

its very interesthing.

afshar=qaskay same thing??

No, Qashqa'i are different, they are not Turkomen or Azari I THINK, I think they are a unique Turkic tribe, a large number of them are still nomads and they are very similar to Bakhtiari in everything except language. Afshars are originally a Turkomen tribe, but many of them became Azari after they were moved to that region, they changed from a nomadic lifestyle to sedentary.



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Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 02:46
Originally posted by Luv_ya_Azerbaijan

Jesus Christ, I just want you to show me a single country that recognizes  Karabakh, as an Armenian territory..


Where does it say that Armenia wants to include Karabakh within its borders?! Karabakh Armenians first voted democratically (back in 1988) to be separated from Azerbaijani SSR and join Armenian SSR, but that was then. The Karabakh government now demands its recognition as the legitimate authority of Karabakh and does wish to be an integrated part of Azerbaijan (which it has actually never been). Karabakh was an "autonomous republic" during the Soviet era, not an integral part or province of Azerbaijani SSR and was never a part of Azerbaijan when the country became independent.

Armenia has no official active part in the conflict and is acting only as negotiating part on behalf of the Karabakh Armenians since Azerbaijan refuses to negotiate with the "separatists". Armenia has not and does not demand an inclusion of Karabakh within its own borders, only the security of Karabakh Armenians. And that excludes the alternative of Karabakh being, in any way an integral part of Azerbaijan. As matter as fact, not even Armenia has officially recognised the Karabakh republic.

Claiming anything else is just Azeri propaganda accusing Armenia as "agressor" in order to win sympathy in international arena.


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Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 20:11

dont you mean Karabakh Armenian military forces? you and some people here cant get over the fact that it was Nagorno-Karabakh, yes the same 150 thousand people republic that defeated you, not Armenia.

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------

Stop your armenian propoganda here!!!!

yes 150 thousand people defeated Azerbaijan)))))))))...in your dream.

Armenians was preparing for this war during many decades. Republic of Armenia, armenian diaspora and of course Russia and it's military forces played a key role in recent occupation of Azerbaijani land.

Armenia is a Russian military forpost. It was said not by me, it was said by head of Russian Parlament. There are currntly 3 militarry russian base in Armenia.

Without russian help, they never could achieve any result in war with azerbaijani nation. And unfortunately not only russians but also iranians helped and continue helping armenians with their occupation of azerbaijani land.

The culutal and religion heritage of azerbaijani turks in our ancient land ( modern Republic of Armenia and occupied Karabagh) was continuesly destroyed by armenians and russians.

They also stollen the ancient name of Karabagh - Artsakh, which is ancient albanian name and nothing to do with armenia and armenians.

Armenia will be destroyed by azerbaijani army soon. Your country has not only moral but also legal obligations against Azerbaijan.



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 20:18

Armenian church in Baku, capital of Azerbaijan.

 



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 20:55
Originally posted by Qajar

Stop your armenian propoganda here!!!!

yes 150 thousand people defeated Azerbaijan)))))))))...in your dream.

Armenians was preparing for this war during many decades. Republic of Armenia, armenian diaspora and of course Russia and it's military forces played a key role in recent occupation of Azerbaijani land.


     Preparing for the war for many decades? How would Armenia do that while under the tight grip of the USSR...one of the 2 world superpowers during these "many decades"?

Originally posted by Qajar

Armenia is a Russian military forpost. It was said not by me, it was said by head of Russian Parlament. There are currntly 3 militarry russian base in Armenia.

     And theres plenty of U.S. military bases in Turkey. Whats your point?

     Btw, the only thing the Russians do is watch the closed border with Turkey and Azerbaijan. This is because Turkey almost sent its army into Armenia because of the uprising in Karabagh. Russia is our ally, and they protect us against nations that are much more powerful than us militarily speaking. We know they have their own motives for doing so. But should we turn down their protection just for this? Armenia can't afford to do so. Anyone who thinks they can is living a dream, much like yourself.

Originally posted by Qajar

The culutal and religion heritage of azerbaijani turks in our ancient land ( modern Republic of Armenia and occupied Karabagh) was continuesly destroyed by armenians and russians.

     It would be great if you had anything close to a fact to back this up...

     I know for a fact Azerbaijan destroys Armenia's cultural heritage within its lands. You know how I know? Its on tape! In this very thread! Just some of the discoveries you can make if you actually READ OTHERS' POSTS.

     And its very funny how you don't mention Azerbaijan's destruction of cultural heritage. Your bias is obvious to everyone.


Originally posted by Qajar

Armenia will be destroyed by azerbaijani army soon. Your country has not only moral but also legal obligations against Azerbaijan.

     So Azerbaijan is waiting for...a red carpet? Why don't they do it if they can? Because they know they can't...thats why they are destroying Armenian heritage to provoke Armenia to attack them, in order to make Armenia look bad in front of the whole world. Too bad we're not stupid, or else this might have actually worked.

     Your hatred for Armenians is evident in this last quote.



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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 21:02
Originally posted by Qajar

dont you mean Karabakh Armenian military forces? you and some people here cant get over the fact that it was Nagorno-Karabakh, yes the same 150 thousand people republic that defeated you, not Armenia.

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------

Stop your armenian propoganda here!!!!

yes 150 thousand people defeated Azerbaijan)))))))))...in your dream.

Armenians was preparing for this war during many decades. Republic of Armenia, armenian diaspora and of course Russia and it's military forces played a key role in recent occupation of Azerbaijani land.

Armenia is a Russian military forpost. It was said not by me, it was said by head of Russian Parlament. There are currntly 3 militarry russian base in Armenia.

Without russian help, they never could achieve any result in war with azerbaijani nation. And unfortunately not only russians but also iranians helped and continue helping armenians with their occupation of azerbaijani land.

The culutal and religion heritage of azerbaijani turks in our ancient land ( modern Republic of Armenia and occupied Karabagh) was continuesly destroyed by armenians and russians.

They also stollen the ancient name of Karabagh - Artsakh, which is ancient albanian name and nothing to do with armenia and armenians.

Armenia will be destroyed by azerbaijani army soon. Your country has not only moral but also legal obligations against Azerbaijan.



this is the first post I have seen where every phrase/sentence is completly wrong...

and btw, I dont see the picture of the Armenian Church, does anyone else?


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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 21:55

The culutal and religion heritage of azerbaijani turks in our ancient land ( modern Republic of Armenia and occupied Karabagh) was continuesly destroyed by armenians and russians.
Now I don't know much about this whole conflict, but there is a key word in this sentence. You said Turks and "our ancient land". Am I the only one who cought this little piece of propaganda? Maybe the Azerbaijani people that are ethnicly from the Caucusus, but aren't Turks from mid asia?

If anything the lands belong to Armenia if you want to talk about ancient seeing as they have been there since atleast 6000-4000 bc. They were the first people to be in the region. Now I maybe wrong, but I have greater doubt in Turks calling the Caucusus area their ancient lands.



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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:22
Now I don't know much about this whole conflict, but there is a key word in this sentence. You said Turks and "our ancient land". Am I the only one who cought this little piece of propaganda? Maybe the Azerbaijani people that are ethnicly from the Caucusus, but aren't Turks from mid asia?

If anything the lands belong to Armenia if you want to talk about ancient seeing as they have been there since atleast 6000-4000 bc. They were the first people to be in the region. Now I maybe wrong, but I have greater doubt in Turks calling the Caucusus area their ancient lands.

------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------

It was land of Caucusian Albania - ancient name of modern North Azerbaijan. Albanians were consist of 26 tribes, and 5 of them were turkic tribes. Armenians has nothing to do with albanian heritage which belong to azerbaijani people. They stolled and tried to destroyed every albanian church in this region and even tried to declared that Albania was a fake state. This is terrible.



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:26
Originally posted by Qajar

It was land of Caucusian Albania - ancient name of modern North Azerbaijan. Albanians were consist of 26 tribes, and 5 of them were turkic tribes. Armenians has nothing to do with albanian heritage which belong to azerbaijani people. They stolled and tried to destroyed every albanian church in this region and even tried to declared that Albania was a fake state. This is terrible.


     How can 5 Caucasian tribes be Turkish? That defies logic, since Turks aren't Caucasian. I'm not even calling into question your sources, which you don't even have (reliable ones at least).

     Also, Caucasian Albanians were Christians, and followed Armenian liturgical traditions (many Albanian churches have Armenian writing on them). Also, the Caucasian Albanians' alphabet was created by an Armenian, the same one who created the Armenian alphabet (Mesrob Mashdots). If you want to talk about cultural similiarities, Armenians are much closer to Caucasian Albanians than Turks.

     Plus, Karabakh wasn't part of Caucasian Albania. Albania was just east of Karabakh.


-------------
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:29

Preparing for the war for many decades? How would Armenia do that while under the tight grip of the USSR...one of the 2 world superpowers during these "many decades"?
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------

Armenia was closely tight with armenian spyurk-diaspora since 1960th. The armenian revolutionery party Dashnakcutyun trained thousands of armenian killers in Middle East milittary camps ( Livan, Siriya). These killers had a good practise by killing and meking terrorist attack over turkish diplomats across the world. In 1988 they started move to Erevan and then participate in a karabagh war. The armenian "hero" - terrorist Melkonyan who was centesed in Europe for terrorist attac on turkish diplomats, was fighting against azerbaijani people with his supporters. He was killed by azerbaijani armya and after he became e hero in Armenia. It is unbelievable, how terrorist can became a national hero in 21st century.



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:34
do you really think anyone here believes you...I am not sure if even the Turks do (some might)


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Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:44

How can 5 Caucasian tribes be Turkish? That defies logic, since Turks aren't Caucasian.

     Also, Caucasian Albanians were Christians, and followed Armenian liturgical traditions (many Albanian churches have Armenian writing on them). Also, the Caucasian Albanians' alphabet was created by an Armenian, the same one who created the Armenian alphabet (Mesrob Mashdots). If you want to talk about cultural similiarities, Armenians are much closer to Caucasian Albanians than Turks...

------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------


Caucasus - is a cradle of ancient civilisations, created by people inhabited this territory, which preserved rich material and cultural legacy of ancient state Albania. Azerbaijan is a heir of Caucasian Albania and subsequent formations at its territory, and Albanians are the ones of ancestors of Azerbaijan nation. The most ancient Christian church in Caucasus - is Albanian church Kish, established in 1 -2 century A.D by apostle Elysee in Sheki region, and also temples Gandzasar and Amaras in Karabagh are still remained uptoday at places where at present live descendants of gunns, gels, alpnas, legs and udins.

 

 

ON THE PROBLEM OF AUTOHTONITY OF THE TURKIC POPULATION OF GARABAG 
(or regarding falsification of the ethnic belongings of the Albanian population of the Caucasus by the Armenian scholars)
ALEKPER ALEKPEROV, doctor of philosophy Azerbaijan University

Some historians, especially Armenian ones, consider that Turkic people settled the Eastern Europe and Caucasus, including Azerbaijan not earlier the Christmas. Such statement of the question has given a ground for Armenian separatists as well as representatives of the "Sadval" nationalist movement to put forward to Azerbaijan some territorial claims. 
On the basis of the comparative analysis of written sources and onomastic material, the author disproves the idea on settlement of Albania by the Turkic people. 


Azerbaijan and Garabag as its integral parts are one of the ancient places of civi-lization. Concerning the territory of the present Armenia it is also the Azerbaijan land. By its geographical location the territory of Azerbaijan including that of the southern Azer-baijan is situated between the Asia and Europe. The roads of many peoples in the ancient and medieval times passed through this territory. 
One of the complicated and contradictory questions of the history of Azerbaijan is the problem of the ethnogenesis of the Azerbaijan people. This problem is urgent since the Armenian scholars try to prove that they are the autohtonic people of the Caucasus and the Turkic majority was settled this area during the Hun invasion of the Caucasus. Therefore, it is necessary to analyze all complicated ethnic problems of the ancient times, which had some relations to Azerbaijan. 
The polemics of the Azerbaijan scholars with their Armenian colleagues on this theme had very various literatures. We can not consider all literature on this problem in the given article. However in this article we did not aim to discuss some problems with the Armenian scholars. We tried to give the objective estimation of those complex ethnic problems which happened in those far times. We could enter into the polemics with the scholars of that level whose investigations are far from ambiguous and ideological ideas. Therefore, we do not want to be incorrect like some Armenian scholars. 
In the introduction into L. N. Gumilyov's "The Ancient Rus and the Great steppe" D. S. Likhachev wrote that the historical reality in the ancient time was richer than it is represented at the sources. [1]. It is known that the most part of the chronicles of the ancient and medieval history was written non-objective because of the influence of some rulers. Therefore, in order to study the ethnic processes of that time the onomastic material has very great significance alongside the written sources. Because of the influ-ences of the ideology, which is far from the reality, historical sciences accept the idea about settlement of the Turkic people to the Caucasus and Minor Asia only after the Hun invasion. We should show the ethnic map of the North coast of the Black Sea and the North Caucasus on the eve of this invasion. According to the historical chronicles, at the very beginning of our era the given area was inhabited by the Veneds [2]. To consider the Veneds as the Slav peoples is a false opinion because the notions "Sklavin" and "Slav" are different ones. (We will discuss this issue later). 
On the eve of the Hun invasion the ethnic map the North coast of the Black Sea was changed because of the settlement of the Got tribes from the Baltic area. The Got tribes settled the space on the low Dunay and Dnepr in the direction to the Black Sea. The movement of the different tribes in the Europe was activated in the second part of the IV century when between the Volga and Don rivers some tribal union came into existence called as the Hun. After defeated the Alan, the Hun included them into its union. The Hun union in 375 defeated the Got union of the North coast of the Black Sea. After this event the part of the Got (ost-Got) was included into the Hun union, the another part (the west got) moved to the West [3]. Analysis of the sources shows that when the Byzantine and Latin authors mentioned the Hun, they mean the Turkic people [4] which as its integral part had Bulgars [5]. After occupation of Pannoniya in 420 the Hun people created here the vast union which unified the other people and disappeared in 454 [6]. L. N. Gumilyov noted that after the collapse of the Magna Bulgaria in 670 the Turkic-Bulgarian people run "some to the Kama river, some to the Dunay, some to the Hungary, and some to It-aly" [7]. However, our analysis of the sources and the onomastics certifies that the fixa-tion the Turkic ethnoses in the Europe derives from more ancient times. 
The Byzantium, Latin, Armenian, and Arabic sources telling about the Turkic-Bulgar mention their under the different notions (onogur, kutrigur-kutigur, (k)utigur, barsel, ogur, v. n. n. dr/ e. t. c. [8]. But except the noted names there are in relation of Turkic- Bulgar are applied the notion "sklaboi/sklavin/as-sakaliba" [9]. 
The sources tell that in 633-668 to the time of rule of the king ofGrimuld one of the Bulgarian lords named Alceko or Alchik arrived to Italy and settled in the province of Benevet and the other part of Bulgars- Kutigurs (Gurt-Oguz or Wolf Oguz) 30 year be-fore found some hostage in Bavaria in the area ofDogoberd king [10]. It is possible using these facts the Muslim historian Al- Khorezmi wrote "the land of Germany- and it is land of as- Sakaliba (Bilad Irmaniya va hiya ard as-sakaliba)" [11]. I am sure that the Turkic -Bulgars kept their names in the name of the famous "Sen-Gotard" [12], where the tribal name kutrigur/kotrag. Our onomastic conclusions correspond to the written sources. 
The penetration of the Bulgars took place in the Velizariy troops in the Africa [13]. Especially in the large amount of the toponimics having the Bulgar names are traced in France and in the Perinea peninsula. 
As we noted early one of the famous Bulgar generation was Barsel [14]. J. Mar-quart tried to link the name of Barsel with the name of "bersitkon" with the fish genus caught in the Meotid District. He considered that Barsel received their names after this fish was caught [15]. Z. V. Togan considers that the name of Barsel is derived from the Turkic tribe of Bars. But P. Golden using both versions considers there is not any true etymology of the given ethnonims [17]. 
During the study of the history of some ethnos it is not enough to compare only some of manuscripts. Essential role in the investigation of the history of the definite peo-ple belongs also to the study of its world outlook and traditions. Therefore, it is to pay attention on the genealogical legend on the origin of the Turkic peoples. According to this tradition some Turkic peoples is descended from female wolf (gurd); other expla-nations of this legend belonging to other Turkic peoples are descended from female- lion. [18]. According to Mahmud Kashgari, the author of the dictionary of the Turkish dialects, Lion is "bars". [19]. 
The Muslim historian Ibn Khordadbekh mentions about the tribes of Burjan, as-Sakaliba, Abar settled on the North from Andalus [20]. "Burjan, Bulgar, b. r. g. r, b. 1. Kan" are the different types of the ethnonims of the Bulgar in the Arabic sources. The name of the Barsel is kept in the name of Barcelona city, which is on the North from An-dalus and also in the name of the (Marsel/Barsel- author) which is on the South of France. It is possible that the name of this tribe by the wordy translation was the base for the foundation of such toponims as Lion/ Leon denoting the lion's land. To same category we may relate the name of the district "IIe- de- France" - Paris. In the expression "IIe- de-France" the component "IIe" is synonyms to the concept of "iya" in the late of Frantsiya denoting the "placement". It derives to the Turkish word of "el"- "country". It is possible that the name of Burgundiya derives from the Turkish "boru (wolf)+ Gunn (the tribe's name) + d/t (the tribal ending of the plurality. For example: Saka-t, Bashkir-d). The early medieval sources tell in the Caucasus the bulgar- Burgundur.
Therefore, we consider that if the Arabic sources and the local names tell about penetration of the Turkic- Bulgar before "Andalus" then we can find some objective bases to assert that they came from the South, As we said that Ibn Khordadbekh in the North from Andalus deployed Saklabs. Some Muslim sources let to assert that as-Sakaliba ethnonims can be understood as Bulgar- Turks but not Slavs. It is interesting that by this name is linked to also Sakasene (Shakashena), where the Caucasian Albania was established. For example the anonymous Persian source Hudud al-ATam telling about Saklabs of the North of the Black Sea notes that they had 2 cities "Vabnit, the first city in the East from as-Sakaliba. . . Khurdab, the big city their king was sitting. [21]. Until recently there were given different etymologies of the Khurdab all weakness of these etymologies are that all investigators understood Saklabs as Slavs. [22]. But our analysis of the Khurdab tells that in the 1 -st part of this word the Turkish Gurd is prayed by the Turkic people as totem [23]. We consider that in the 2-nd part of the Khurdab is expressed "oba"- living area which is kept in the Turkic languages in the forms "iy. ey. oy. uy. lay. yuy. ev. oba;" [24]. In particular according to L. A. Gindin the component of "uwa" (in this case "oba/uba"- author) as the prefixes "-wa, -oa, va, -uo" is widely spread in the territory of the Minor Aasia and Greece in the ancient times [25], For example, the Urarty manuscript is called the country Manna (State in the territory of Azerbaijan in the IX b. c.) - as mannaani-ebani" [26], where ebani is the land" [27]. (Compare Gurd/ gird (wolf) + ab (av/ev) + ani" -Girdman/ Gardabani- is the integral part of the Caucasian Al-bania later Mehranidian property). Neverthels, comparison of the stories Ibn Khordadbeh and Hudud al-A'lem permits us to pay attention the next toponium of Andalus - Kordova. That's it in Arabian sources this toponium fixes as "Kurtuba". However, the mentioned comparisons let as to pay attention wordy tran part of which is present Spanish city "Bar-celona" - capital of a province Cathalonia. For the time title Cathalonia has appeared in the official documents of first half of XII century. The history of Cathalonia ascends to times of Roman government in Spain. About 470 Cathalonia was occupied by Gothians and Alanians and became a part of Westgothian monarchy. After a conquest of this terri-tory by the Arabs, Cathalonians were moved to the Pyrenus peninsula where the group had recognized its leader Odger Cathalone. It is considered that the name the province is derived from this name. There is another point of view that the word "Cataluna" was de-rived from the word "Gothalana" which was occupied by Gothians and Alanias [29]. However, taking into consideration unstably position of sound "r" in the Turkic lan-guages (for example, in the next Turkic words such as- torpak/toprak, arslan/aslan, kur-tigur/kurtigur, Volga/Bolga+ r [30], we are connecting an origin of ethnonim with the form ?Got?/r/ +el, which was interested to us i. e. "The wolf country". It is possible to notice, that the ethnonim "Got" also specifies the connection with Turkish field of spreading and we consider, that this word is derived from the Turkic "kut / soul, light, fire", i. e. our conclusions first of all are confirmed with the fact that the Gotha in the Byzantian sources are nothing but "Skifians". However, the noted term means as Bulgars - Oguz [31]. On the other hand our conclusion on connection of ethnonims "Got" with Turkish "fire / light" is substantiated also with other title, the German "aleman", where "al / light /compare, Germikhioni - red Huns [3la]/, and "german", as a synonym of a word "aleman". Taking into consideration above noted we can not agree with the opinion of those historians considering that Turkic peoples appeared in Europe and Minor Asia, only after Hun's invasion. For example, though a number of the historians uncondition-ally insist on the Iranolinguality of the ancestors of Skifians, nevertheless there are im-portant facts about presence among the Skifians of the great number of Turkic plasts [32]. Except it our researches of the Latin, Byzantine and Arabian sources have shown, that the name of Bulgar - Oguz (Ogur) as "sklaboi- sklavin- as- sakaliba" is derived from many number of ethnonim "sak", "sakala-r" [33]. So it is possible to speak, that toponims with a title "gurt / gord" were widely widespread (widely) in Europe. 
In the XIII b. c. in the northeast of Minor Asia the state ofFrigia was established. By the opinion of the experts, probably Frigians have moved in the Minor Asia from Ma-cedonia or Frakia. In the X- VIII centuries B. C. - period of the best power of this state the frigion capital "Gordiy" or "Gordon" called in honor of king Gordiy, glorified at this time. The non-Greek character of this toponim is proved early [34]. Our researches of a title of the Frigian capital, situated in south - west of Black Sea show that this title is similar to title of Saklab's capital- "Khurdab" - in the description of "Hudud al- Alem" situated by the source on the north of Black Sea, i. e "Gord (Wolf)+ iy (domestic region). That is designates a place, the settlement is provided by another Greek name of city-"Gordion" where Greek "on" - denotes a place, settlement. It is interesting also that some historians try to consider the Armenians with Frigians. I think, that the comparison of the historical people "Arm" with Hays is not absolutely right and (in order to prevent any misunderstanding) in relation to the contemporary Armenians we should use a term "hay". In Turkic languages names of the rivers are fixed as "sel, cay, say, su ,i. e. Aksu, Yenisay Keksay, Jansay etc. [35]. Ptolemei fixed on territory of the Caucasian Albania the river "Kaysiy", which is identified with Gek chay or Girdemanchay. The Roman his-torian-geografian of 1-st century Pliniy Higher mentions, that "Skifians named the river Tanais- Silis", or "the river oflaksart had named by Skifians Silis" [36a]. These two mes-sages of Pliniy allow to judge that already in times of Alexander Makedonsky Tanais and Yaksart had the identifications in language of Skifians which was origins from the Turkic "sel / the river". In "Illiada" of Homer describes such scene of period of the war of the Greeks with Troyans: "Pirkhem head . . .the Peonians, who lived far in the Amedonian country where the river of wide Aksiy is rolling. " [37] Historians mark, that "Aksiy" is a river in Makedonia [38]. We consider that in this case we do not need in comments. It would be desirable to pay attention to historians and to such an insignificant detail. Among Turks of the Minor Asia the musical structure of tones (lad) of the Shour is widespread. Garabag among people is considered "as a conservatory of Azerbaijan". Uzeir Hajibeyli, the founder of the Azerbaijan classical music was bom in Garabag. Az-erbaijanians consider the lad of "Shour" to be one of the seven main musical lads. So here sound structure of "Shour" by its order coincides with the sound structure of Frigian lad. Therefore, these facts reject the Frigian origin of Hays. [38 a] 
The legend about premather of Wolf-mother or Lion-mother has kept the deep traces in the mentality of Turkic people. Using this name Turkic people named the coun-try, cities, tribes, children. For example, Gurd / wolf: Country- Girdman / Gardabani (province of Caucasian Albania), Katalonia; City - Gordiy, Khurdab, Kordova / in arabian sourses Kurtuba - Kurt (wolf) + oba (area) Tribe - Kutigur / Kurtogur, (k) utigur. Personal names - Gord - king of Frigians;Gord / Groda - leader of Hunns ac-cording to the "Chronograph" by Feofan; Kort / Gurt - a name of Kubratkhan, father of Asparukh- chan, that was fixed in the "Imennik (the title of the Bulgarians khans)- the list of ancient Bulgarian kings [39]. In the Italian version Atilla is represented with the wolf head [40]. Bars / lion: Country - Barsel / Barsiliya (province ofCaucasion Albania) [41]. City - Barselona /Marsel,Paris, Barda (historical capital of Caucasian Albania-Partav / Barzaa / Bardaa: alternation p/b" and "s/z/d/t/"- a part/s+ av i. e Bars + oba): populated area ofBorcali (the part of historical Caucasian Albania) [42]. Tribe - barsel / barsil. Personal names - Bars-as - Saklabi (not Boris Slav, as A. P. Novoseltsev be-lieves [43])- a member of embassy of Bulgarian king Almish / Almush to a court yard of Bagdad Khalif[44]: Bars (Boris) - Bulgar khan (death 907), accepting a Christianity from the Mizianian Bulgars; Barsbek - Khazar kagan; one ofAtilla's uncles was called Aybars [45], The wide spread of titles of districts connected to the word of "lion / bars" (the dialect form for the transition of b/p/ - bars / pars) allows to introduce new approach to the etymology of titles Parsua / Parfiya [46,47]. Assumed by I. M. Dyakonov and devel-oped by A, A. Grantovsky the idea that "Parsu" ascend to ancient Iranian "parsuva / -side, edge", (avest. "prsu / parasu" side), was subjected to cruticism by R. Frau. He said "Parsa was ethnic name [48]. By the opinion of R. Fray, this people was speaking the Persian language [49], where as under the opinion of I. M, Dyakonov in IX- in the second half of VIII c. ofB. C. native population of Parsua was not Iranian languages [50]. Presumably first Indoiranians have appeared in the Near East in first half of II thousand years ofB. C. [51]. The last researches ofJ. B. Jusifov show, that tribes of III thousand years ofB. C. known under the name "su, turukki, lullubei". They had different names in country Aratta that was situated near Lake Urmia, and belonged to Turkic ethnic language group [52]. 

It is necessary to mark, that in Indo-E uropean language there is not a general ti-tle for tiger / lion [53]. G. M. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov mark, that in Indo-European language the term "bars" in a sense "bars", (het. Parsana, - where is selected the suffix "ana" and basis "pars"). The historians mark, that to the Iranian forms on "-s" (Iranian -pers / pars/ is new - Persian "Pars") are opposite to the doubled forms on "-d"ogdian "Pmk", Afganian - "Prang", Persian "Palang" (bars) with addition "r/1". 
By excluding any borrowings of these forms from one language into another, the mentioned scholars consider that this word was borrowed from some Minor Asian lan-guage. They call the name of "Bars" in the ancient Indo-European dialects (for Example, the Greek "Leo", the German "Lewe") [54]. Taking into account the presence in the Urmian area the Turkic element from an-cient time, we consider "Parsua/Parfiya/Partav"- are dialectical forms of the same name, which is concerned with the Turkic words "Bars-oba", i. e. the "Land of Lions". We need to clarify the toponiums of Shirvan, the area on the west of the Caspian Sea and in the East of the Kura river, which is a part of the Caucasian Albania or the early medieval Ar-ran. The toponium is met in the different districts of the East [55]. Sara Ashurbeyli sup-ports Minorsky's opinion connecting the Shirvan name with the "Shir/shar" tribe. M Seyyidov also supports this opinion. [57]. However, taking into consideration the analogy with the "Bars" name, we consider that the etymology of Shirvan as a "land of lions", i. e. "Shirvan" is an Iranian equivalent of the Turkic "Barsel". Notice that "Barsel/Berziliya" in the Medieval sources is situated in the North of Shirvan [58]; Shirvan is situated on the Eastern coast of the Kura river; "Parisos" - as a part of the Caucasian Albania is situated on the Right coast of Kura and "Borcali" as a part of the Caucasian Albania is situated on North- West from the pointed area. [59]. In the Medieval sources the toponium of "Var-san" which is noted also as "Varsak/ Varsaz". [60]. This toponium is applied to the city situated on Barseliya and also to the area having the same name situated on the Araz river [61]. Regarding this word Shamsaddin Sami notes: "Varsan is the name of Azerbaijan wholly or its part" [62]. To Ziya Bunyatov these data are taken the Arabian sources. [63]. 
It is necessary to notice that "dog" is domesticated "wolf. The symbol of dog takes too honorable place among the Turkic peoples. [64]. Turkic peoples named tribes in honor of dog (It bechene). The Slav Russian chronicles report on broad spreading among Turkic peoples personal names, rising to the dog (Mar, Itoglu, Kobyak, Konchak) [65]. To this categories it is necessary to refer Spaka -woman that was feeding the founder of Achemenid empire Kir and also the name of the Scythian king Ishpakay ("Spaka,/ Ispaka/ Ispakay"). There are many opinions about etymology of this word [66]. We must know and think that dog is domesticated wolf. So, coming from this, we consider, that both in the nature, and in mythologies both animals must save similarity, i. e. if "wolf/ gurt"- a symbol of fire /light /and this is confirmed by presence in the word gurt/ kurtcomponent "ku" - Ku (ar), ku (m)an, the Russian word Polovtsi - "Poloviy" which means from Slav a yellow or colour of straw), the "Dog" must also keep the same manifestation. In Turkic languages for marking "a light", except "Ku-" is used component "is" with the develop-ment in is / ish / us /oz / az /ut /od / (is- ti (warm), uld- uz (star), is-ig (light), az-ar (tem-perature). Saying about "Ispaka" we may notice that in this word first slab "is'it" a light factor. Considering sanctity of Wolf / Dogs we suppose that staying part of word "Is-paka"- "baka" means "God, Holy Ghost". The researches suppose that theorem "god / baga" has Turkic origin [67]. Thereby, coming from general symbologies of dog and wolf, we suppose that the word we are interested in can be denoted on the Turkic lan-guage origin as "burning god". Arabs in default of the consonant "p" transfer of name of city "Ispahan" is connected by means of the Persian "Isbaka (dog) + an (the prefix of the area" to Turkic concept of "Country of burning Godnes". The Image ofpremother - wolf in this instance "Kanjik" allows to change our opinion on some historic data. First, word "kanjik" refer to both of gods, male and female of wolf. This was connected with their physiological condition [68]. Bringing more archaic form of the given word as "kanic/ kanish" 0. Suleymenov has called attention and on such detail, as follows, on saved in the Latin language a word "canis" in the meaning bitch [69] that corresponds Turkic "names/ kanjik". On reporting Tit Liviy after falling of Troya outstanding men - Eney and Antenor - was rarefied to move from city. Antenor with the small numbers of "enet" or "venet" arrived to the gulf of the Adreatic Sea. Having exiled from there are landed for the first time is named Troya but the whole people - Venedians. May be the town on the Appenin peninsular - Venecia straightly refer to those veneds. Eney arrived to Makedoniya, after he moved to Lavrentian district of the Appe-nian peninsula.then he went to Sicily. In the thirteenth of generation of Eney senior brother Numitor, which male posterity of its brother. Reya Silviya, daughter of its brother under the honorable prefix has sent in Church, and so makes her it on eternal virgin. Soon, Reya gave birth two children. The king ordered to throw them to the river. But the Tibr was destroyed and those stayed their children on the coast of the river. By Tit Liviy the female volfreageted to the child cry and feed them. The Favstui founded the children. He brought them home and began to educate. (Some people consider that Larencia was called a female wolf. [7 0] According to Liviy this legend connects with Troya. There-fore, definition of ethnic belongings of Venedians will let us define how the Turkic Kan-ish entered to the Latin. Because some Azerbaijan toponiums are connected with Venedi-ans ('Vanad' in Nakhchivan, "Khodjavend,Sirkhavend" in Garabag, "Vanadzor" in daily Armenia (historical Azerbaijan) , Defining the ethnic belongings of the venedians sholars introduced some confusing. According to N. B. Bodansky, narrator I-V books of Tit Liviy, ethnonim "Enets / Venets / Veneds /" known in different areas of Europe. "From North Italian Venedians saved small quantity of short inscriptions. Their language,- how considers Bodanskaya is Italian. But some details can point to some relationships with Baltic languages (Veneds of North Europe is accepted to consider / Slavs [71]. Several earlier Tit Libiy about Veneds / Venets reports also Herodatus. But from its tale we will leam about the ritual ofVened's girls' marriage and on that veneds inhab-ited in to the north from Frakia, on the Adriatic Sea [72]. After Libiy Cornelius Tatsit tells about Veneds. This Roman historian does not know to whom, in particular, refer the Veneds. He writes: "To consider Pevkiyens, Veneds and Fennes to Germans or Sarmatians, / don't know (! - Alekper) [73]. In the comment to the 2-nd torn that the name of Illirian Veneds populated in the times of Tatsit if up and down Visia was confirmed by the neighbor- Slavs [74]. The Venedians are mentioned if the Peftingereian tables, the map was made in the 4-5 centuries. [75]. It is astonished that some scholars ignore notes of the Armenian historian M. Horenatsi. Tell-ing about settlement in the Basean he notes the settlement place of the Vekhendur Bul-garins Vends began to call by their names [76]. Despite on this announcement of Hore-natsi some investigators want the Illirian Vends to be Italians and Vends according to Tatsit and lordand are Slavs. To the Slavs of the Veneds came on the basis that they are together with Sklavians and Ants are derived from the origin. [77]. However, we noted that the Sklavians in the early Medieval sources are not Slavs in the late meaning iofthis ethnonium, and Bulgarians are Oguzians. This opinion corresponds to the Horenatsi where Bulgarians are Vends. Prokopius from Kesariya and lordan are supplementing each other, Prokopiy writes: ". . . S (k)lavians and Ants are not ruled by the same man. They lived in harmony since the ancient time. .... These Barbarian tribes have the same living and laws. They consider that the God -creator of the rain is the creator of the peo-ples. . . The mode of life like those to Massagetians. . . They are pursuing The Hunn moral values. Sometimes even the name by S (k)lavins and Ants were the same. "/ sic ! - Alekperov/ [78]. Comparing the stories about Veneds by Tatsit, lordan, M. Khorenatsiy and the Slavic crinkle "Povest vremennikh let" (PVL), we can notice some similarity: Tatsit: "/Veneds/. . . . inhabit in the forests and mountains to rob. . ." lordan: ". . , /Veneds/. . . are behaving themselves very crude because of our sins." Mosey Khorenatsiy: "Vaharshak convenes wild strangers /Veneds - an author / living on the north plain beside soles of Great Caucasian mountain . . . and orders them to abandon to rob and not to catch people. PVL: "If black Bulgars will come (in the grounds of above-mentioned sources we put an equal sign between Veneds and Bulgars - Alekperov / and will fight in Corsun country, we order a Rus prince not to let them, otherwise they will cause damage to its country". [79]. These comparisons from four different languages and time sources wit-ness that all of these give the same characteristics for Veneds. Name of Veneds is attested in Muslim and Jewish traditions again with reference to Bulgars / V. n. nd. r. (Hudud al-Alam) W. 1. n. dr. (al-Masudi), w. n. ntr. (Jewisch-khazar documents), N. n. d. r. (Gardizi) [80]. Resently, Norwegian scholars were interested in resemblance of mountainous ex-pressing of the monuments an Mezolitians culture in Azerbaijan - in Gobustan with ex-ponats of the Norwegian Contihi museum. Like the similarity with the "Country of Fire" - Azerbaijan and ancient Vikings? Penetration of Turkic element in the region of Baltic sea and Scandinavia began much early. Written sources and toponimiya of the region witnesses about this. As an ex-ample we can use the name of such cities as "Turku" and "Trakay". Or the Finnish name (country) Finland - "Country of lakes" - "Suomi" that derives from the Turkic words as "su (water) + "ami (b/m-oba / land)" The Icelandic historian Snorru Sturulson (XIII c.), wrote: "Odin and his wife was predicted that will be gone to the north part of the Universe and he will be respected more than another Konungsit. Therefore, he decided to go away and remainede the land of the Turks. . . And they did not stop unless they arrived to North, which is called the land of the Saks. Odin stayed there for a long time. Odin went to the North to the land, which is called now Sweden. The konung of Sweden was called Gulvi. And when he (Gulvi) had heard that these people were coming from Asia, which was called As, he met them and said that Odin may rule as soon as he wish. . . . Odin liked their lands. . . He appointed the rulers there , like that was in Troya. He had appointed twelve rulers to rule and founded such laws, which previously were in Troya and to which Turks were accustomed. The Ass married. . . . they settled on the whole lands of the Saks and from there on the all northern parts of the Earth and the languages of the peoples from Asia were accepted by the peoples of those lands" /! - Alekperov/. [81]. The notice of pub-lishers of the source in the Russian that Turks were connected with Troya because in the XIII century the Seljuks were dominated in the Minor Asia does not correspond to the reality. [82]. First, Sturulson when he told "now" knew his time. Second, the source mentions Troya, which to the XIII century did not exist for a long time. And the last, Sturulson told about pagan of the Turks-Ass who left Troya, but the Seljucs settled the Minor Asia were Muslims and they never annexed Sweden. We need to pay attention to the comparisons of the source of Ass with Turkic. It is necessary to notice that the name of the late Roman provinces "Asia" ascends to the name of the Minor Asian country "Assuva". [83]. The component "iya" in the word "Asia" ascends to the Turkic notion of "settling, country" and this let to judge that com-ponent "uva/oba" in the word "Assuva" is identical to "iya", i. e. the name "Assuva/Asia" is etymologized as "country of Ass". Iranists consider Ass / Alans as Iranian lingual [84] that looks bias. The idea of Sturulson about the Turkic angularity of the Ass/ Alans is confirmed by the following facts. This is an Old Russian translation of the "history of the Judaic War" by Joseph Flavius: "It is well known that the Ass ... language (or: "people") is descended from the Pechenegs who lived near Tanais and the Azov Sea". [85]. It is well known that Pechenegs are the Turkic people. The origin of the name of Azerbaijan is related to the Ass. The widespread Turkic toponimiya of Europe allows to etymologize the name of country that situated on Appennins and got the name "Italiya" [86]. Legend about mother - "wolf called as Turkic "kanish/canis" allows to conclude that name "Italy" ascend to the Italiyians words "calf (Latin "vitellus/ Vitlu) [87] does not justify itself. We suppose in the name "Italy" reflected "It (dog/canis) + el (country)" with the secondary ending "iya", corresponding to the word "el/country, "country of mother wolf (compare "Bars+el+iya/countryofelBars.) I think the English word "God" (according to metateza "dog") is the light origin,it has the relation with the same Veneds tribes, which were called as "as-turk" by the Icelandic historian. On the territory of Azerbaijan situated two cities which have the same sounds, the etymology of which is contradictory- "Gandsak/Gazaka/Gjanja". The most widespread is an idea that name "Gan/d/sak" derives from ancient Iranian, or more exactly of Midian "Ganza" - treasury [88]. The toponiums and ethnoniums descending to the above men-tioned words were widespread among the Turkic tribes. [89]. M. Seidov analyzing the word "Gandja" noted, that it was connected with the tribe association of Saks. The re-searcher correctly had noted that name "Gandsak was Turkic origin, but he was wrong when he noted that the word Ganja means "camp of Sak Khans [90]. However, using the above mentioned facts we consider that the word "Gandja" was connected with the notion ofmother-wolf(Ganjik). The modern Gandja is located also on land of history of Cauca-sian Albaniya. There were different opinions about the ethnic origin of the Albanians. [91]. Not considering the opinions of the Hays (Armenians), we should note that the following wrong idea on belongings of Albanians to the Nakh - Dagestan language group gave some bases for the representatives of the Sadval movement to assert that the left coast of the Kura river (the Caucasian Albaniya) is the territory ofLezgistan. [92]. The fact that Albanians are Turkics is confirmed in the complex by the above mentioned facts and first of all by comparing of opinions of the Albanian historian Mosey Kalankaytukskiy with the Greek historian of the V century b. c. Herodotus. We should note that when Kalankaytukskiy tells about the genealogy of the Albanians he mentioned Aran from the Sisaks origin. It is known that "Se/ Sak" - is the denotion of the Skifians in the different languages. There are two versions on the language origin of the Skifians -their Iranian or Turkic lingual. Therefore, the opinion of some scholars on the belongings of the albans to the Caucasian lingual areal is not justified. Taking into consideration of Kalankatuyskiy we can note some interesting analogies. First of all we need to remember that such names as Girdman, Barda, Gandja, Shirvan/ Barsel are etymologized from the Turkic language and corresponds to the Turkic world outlook. Kalankaytukskiy mentioned in his "History of Albanians" about the Trtu river [93]. This river is present "Ter-ter" river is situated in Azerbaijan. Considering that the Albanians as Bulgar- Oguz were the main part of the Skifians we can make some parallel. The city of Volga Bulgarian- "Bulgar" of the medieval authors was situated near the city of "Saksin" [94]. The historic Caucasian Albaniya was a part of the historic Sakasena/ Shakashena [95]. We above pointed that the carriers of the ethnonims of Sklavin/ as- Sakaliba were Bulgarins and not Slavs. But the Arabians historians and geographians called Volga (Bolga-r) [96] "nahr as- Sakaliba". Describing the Teymurlang's war against Tokhtamish khan Nizameddin Shami wrote: "Emir Teymurlang went to the travel and was ready to the persecution of Tokhtamish. Passing through Itil (Volga), called among the Turkic peoples as Turatur, achieved to the enemy" [97]. Thus, as we may see from the source one of the names of the Volga river Turatur is not only analogical to the Trtu of Ka-lankaytukskiy but as Trtu and Turatur are in the lands of the same people-the Skifians-Bulgar in the following sources. According to the Bible tradition Kalankaytunskiy is linking Albans to the Keturi-ans [98]. Herodotus notes that the grand son of Skif from Arpaksay was Katiar [99]. We can not consider these facts as accidental: The leader/ Basilefs of the Caucasian Albani-ans Zaber (this name is etymologized from the Turkic Chapar [100]- "messenger"), the leader of the Bulgar living near to the Black sea who is mentioned in relation with the 558 events - Zabergan. Al Bakuvi citating of Kazvini notes that one of the Saklab city (Bulgar- Alekperov) - was Shush*t [101], and one of the cities ofGarabag (on the historic territory of the Caucasian Albaniya) is Shusha. All these facts let us to judge that the Al-banians are the Turkic - Bulgarians, the representatives of the Sako - Oguz tribal unity. Concerning the name of Albaniya/Arran there are not the same opinion. By re-suming the above mentioned, I would like to stress the role of volf among Albanians/ Bulgars and how the Turkic people manifested it. According to the Turkic tradition "light" is preceded to the Oguz Khagan which is head by "gurd/ volf. In the Gurd word there is "ku/gu" which is meaning, "light", for example "Kuar" (the Khazarian God of rain), Kuman/Polovtsi (the tribal name). It means we need to take into consideration the ideas of the ancient author Gay Yuliy Solin: "The Albanians. . . are born having white hairs and their white hairs are considered to be the good sign; therefore, the color of the head gave the name for the people" (Alekperov) [102]. On the basis of the above said taking into consideration the synonimic nature of the concepts "ku (t)/ al (p)" as "light", we consider that the name Albaniya derives to the Turkic concept- "a land of fireous (light) men". The name Albaniya is identical to the name of Azerbaijan which does not derive the name ofAtropat (the rulers of Minor Midiya/Atropatena- the IV b. c.) but must be etymologized as a "Land of Fireous Men (Gods)". Finally, comparing the facts ofAl-Khorezmi that Germany is a land of Saklabs (Bulgars) with that Albanians are also the representatives of the Oguz/Bulgars community, we are doing some analogy ALBANIYA (AZERBAIJAN) - (when "b" is transformed into "m") ALMANIYA/GERMANY (103). Resuming the above mentioned we can conclude that the Turkic people are autohtonics not only of Caucasus but also of other places of the Asia and Europe. There-fore, the assortments of the Armenian (Hay) scholars regarding of the ethic origin of the Albanians do not correspond to the reality. It is wellknown that the history is repeated. It is possible that the modern Arme-nian ideologists do not make a conclusion from the history. The war, which was begun by Armenians against Azerbaijanis, caused very destructive consequences to both peoples. However, the Armenians were defeated more. They lost their rich economic status, which they had in Baku. Taking into consideration that historically the Turkic people did the growth of the Hay/Armenians, we can say that they say the essential cause for the popu-lation growth. And this is very lose for them. The historic past of the Hay/Armenian peo-ple say that they can not live in one given territory. Probably it is the base of their psy-chological character, because they can not live together with another people and the des-tiny is leading them all over the world. I consider, that "Garabag" is the last political ad-venture of the Hay/Armenians. 



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:46

Some aspects on "Appearance" of Armenians in Trans Caucasus.

 For the last time there are many confirmations about "autohenity" of Armenians and Armenian language on Armenian upland and actually on the territory of Trans Caucasus, There are written facts that Armenians speaking Armenian language and lived in Armenia, and spoke it "from time immemorial" There are articles printing about "Khayass hieroglyphic script", related ostensibly to XIV -XVII c B.C . It is confirmed that from "mezamor-giksoss-ancient Armenian" alphabet XVIII c B.C are originated all alphabets of the world, that cuneiform characters of Van is ostensibly Armenian cuneiform and it should be read in Armenian and so on, Such talks, as it is repeatedly was proved In scientific literature, have no any relation to science, and are real falsification with purpose to prove aboriginality of Armenian element on the territory of modern Armenia and its neighbor regions and to establish by this fantastic ideas about necessity of alien lands' capture. Now it is well known, that Armenia is not a native land of Armenian ethos Here it is an element absolutely alien Ancient Armenian nation was put together in the zone of upper Euphrates valley, somewhere in first half of 1 st century B.C. Still in times of Herodot Armenians inhabited only western part of such called Armenian Plato, Xenofot confirms Geotod (Aliyev I "Upper Karabagh - history, facts, events" - Baku, "Elm", 1989 History finds Armenian tribes not on the territory of Armenia or at least somewhere close but far away from it. As Armenian authors confirm themselves, "the most ancient kernel of Armenians was a population of north-eastern part of Maly Asia This country was called Armatana, and later (14-13 cc, B.C.) Khayasa, From there ancestors of Armenians in 12 c. B C. invaded into limits of Shupriya (to South-East from Van lake). In the middle of 8th c B.C. it was joined to Urartu state under name Urme or Arme. Population of these areas (Khayas and Arme) spoke indo-European protoarmenian language, which gradually was a language of tribes unification of western part of Armenian upland " The greater expert of these problems ( M Dyakonov considers, that as ancient Armenian language is not congener to languages of autokhtons of Armenian upland-.., it is clear, that it noted down here from outside", and that "initial bearers of Armenian language's ancestor came to Armenian upland as active catle-breeders with subsidiary agriculture, who didn't know about class society, and with nature of Upper Land and social conditions of early class society they acquainted from autokhtons, for that time still didn't change into Armenian language". The same source considers that ancient Armenian nation was put together in upper Euphrates approximately in first half of I thousand years. (AliyeV I "Upper Karabagh - history , facts, events" - Baku," Elm" 1989.). Penetration of Armenians in the area of Trans Caucasus is related, of course, to later period We shouldn't also forget that fortress Erebuni, name of which is identified with the name of Yerevan, was installed not by Armenians, and not on Armenian, and not even on Urart kings but on the territory of Trans Caucasus country of Aza tribe, country which is in Urart king's writings is called "enemy's land" and which was captured by urarts in process of their move in the area, where presently is located on the territory of Armenia (Aliyev I "Upper Karabagh - history, facts, events" - Baku, "Elm" 1969) More strengthened aggressive capturing actions of Armenians, who took during times of Herodot only western part of Armenian Plato, leaded even to possibility of state system's creation for short historical period. It is surprising, that in spite of evident aggressive character of this capturing process, marked even by such impartial observer, as Strabon, some Armenian scientists try to imagine this process as unification of lands. So, in 11-1 cc. B.C. was created so called "Great Armenia"' , but not simply Armenia, Armenian land, inhabited by Armenians, and lands, captured by Armenian rulers with the force of weapon from neighbors (Aliyev I. "Upper Karabagh - history, facts, events" - Baku, "Elm". 1989). This "empire of Tigran II", recreated in mind of part of Armenian scientists, as created artificially, owing to lands of neighbors (in Trans Caucasus this is mostly lands of historical Caucasian Albania), undoubtedly in significant degree is falsification, as in reality it existed only from 186 BC till 60s of A.D, and possibly, its conquests didn't touch Albanian (azerbaijanian) lands at all, as not all sources include right coast of Kura into territory of Armenia So, undoubtedly, that all lands, on which is located present Armenian Republic, and also those territories of Azerbaijan, which today illegally captured by Armenian extremists, were not and couldn't be "native", "age-old" , "integral" Armenian, as brief mentioned above observation of basic sources showed that Armenians on all these lands is an alien element. However also there is an interesting fact about history of later and more wide scale "percolation" into Trans Caucasus lands. In period of II russian-iranian war (1826-28), when victory of russian army was undoubted, colonel H.B, Lazarev presented to Russian government a project, leit-motif of which was an idea about "renovation of Armenian kingdom in the part of Russian Empire". This idea was for ruling part of Russian Power a base for creature of buffer Christian state on outskirts of empire Upon completion of Russian-Iranian war, in accordance with Order of Nikolay I from 21 of March 1828, were abolished Nakhichevan and Erivan khanates of Azerbaijan, which now were joined into one administrative unit under name "Armenian areas". Inspired by this arrangement of tsarist government, Lazarev and others misfortune - figures even offered to increase a territory of Armenian area at the expense of and others azerbaijanian lands Sheki and Shemakha khanates (Aliyev 1. "Upper Karabagh history, facts, events" - Baku, "Elm". 1989). By the way to counterbalance of slogans on autochthonity of Armenian nation on the lands of Karabakh we can present a fact, that Karabakh was joined to Russia not as Armenian land, and as "Moslem" property It was testified in official documents of that time (Aliyev I "Upper Karabagh - history, facts, events" -Baku, "Elm", 1989). Ethnic assimilation (and still partial) of Gregorianisation and significant Armeniasation of mountainous regions of Karabagh was in 19- th . century B.L, Velichko wrote: "An exception was wrong called by Armenians citizens of Karabagh .., confessing Armenian-grigorian belief and armenizied only three-four centuries before" (Vetlichko V.L Caucsus Russian concern and intertribal questions - Full collection of essays, t.1, S.- Petersburg - 1904 - Baku, "Elm", 1990). It is undoubtedly, in such a way, that Armenian speaking population of present Karabagh (except those who were resettled here in XIX c) " are ancestors of armemsied local population - different Albanian tribes (not other than author Moisey Khorenskiy, calls them ancestors of Aran - ruler of Albans) (Aliyev I. "Upper Karabagh - history, facts, events" - Baku, "Elm" 1989). Also an Armenian author B. Ishkahanyan also wrote about this fact "Armenians, lived in Upper Karabagh, are partly aborigines, ancestors of ancient albans.., and partly from Turkey and Iran, for whom azerbaijanian land was asylum from pursuit and persecution" (Ishkhanyan B. - Nations of Caucasus -Petrograd, 1916). Therefore, by the way there is a fact, that so called Armenians of Karabagh and properly azerbaijanians (who are ancestors of Albanian population) of North Azerbaijan are brothers. Those and others are undoubtedly albans. So called Armenians grigorianised and armenisied, and present azerbaijaniany accepted Islam and were turkicsied. After victorious completion of Russian-Turkish and Russian - Iranian wars in 20-30s XIX c to Trans Caucasus';; areas moved thousands of Armenians from Iran and Turkey, what was foreseen in Turkmenchay peace agreement, signed between Russia and Iran (Aliyev I. "Upper Karabagh - history, facts, events" -Baku, "Elm", 1989). As it is testified by official documents, more significant mass of Armenian population were settled precisely in Karabagh, for, when for example more than 5 thousand of Armenian families moved close to Arax. Armenian area administration, referring to shortage of bread, informed, that "they can not assist for arriving settlers", in consequence of what "great part of settlers, especially poor settlers" moved to Karabagh. whew they could be provided with everything" (Aliyev I, "Upper Karabagh history, facts, events" - Baku, "Elm", 1989). Only those years to areas of Trans Caucasus, particularly, to Karabagh, were resettled more than 200000 persons: "...during the period of two years, from 1828 till 1830, we resettled to Trans Caucasus more than 40000 of persian and 84600 turkish armenians and settled them to the best fiscal lands of Elizavetpol and Erivan provinces, where armenian population was trifling... Upper part of Elizavetpol) province (Upper Karabagh) and Gokchi (Sevan) lake's coasts were inhabited by these armenians. It is necessary to take into consideration that from 124000 armenians, official resettled, also here were resettled a lot of non official armenians, so total amount exceeds more than 200000 people... Widely have used false evidence, armenians captured a lot of fiscal lands" (Shavrov N. I. -New threat to russian concern in Trans Caucasus: forthcoming sale of Mugan to foreigners -1911, page 59-61). A.S, Griboyedov writes; "Colonel Lazarev thought about formation of regular armenian home guard, supposing even to include in his mind Karabagh itself and other areas.,, Armenians mostly are inhabited on landed moslem lands". (Griboyedov A.S. - Works in two volumes, v.2 Publication "Pravda", M, , 1971, page 339-341). He also writes, that resettles "...press moslems, who murmur and basicly", and so basicly, that there is a necessity for suggestion "which has to be directed to moslems in order to reconcile them with their present aggravation, which will not continue for a long time, and eradicate from them a fear about the fact that armenians capture the lands forever, where first they were allowed to enter". Unfortunately, great writer was mistaken. In such a way, karabagh, primordial azerbaijanian land, recently gave a refugee for thousands of armenians from abroad, for whom there was a threat physical extermination. Later Soviet power gave an autonomy to them Now azerbaijanian nation pays for its hospitality. It is also necessary to notice that Albania had its own catholicosat. As Velichko wrote V.L. , "....the question about Trans Caucasian Albania, or in armenian, Agvaniya is very interesting. This is a country, which included present Klizavetpol province, and parts of Tifliss. and Dagestan, was inhabited by nations of non armenian origin.,, Before beg in ing of XIX c there existed a separate agvan or gandzasar catholicos, competing with Echmyadzin and completely independent from the last one. At present time Christians?, which were flock of agvan calhoticosat, are considered armenians and, mixed with them, accepted their character" (Velichko V.L. - Caucasus, Russian concern and intertribes questions - Full collection of works, v.2, St. Petersburg 1904-Baku, "Elm", 1990). Stit! existed and activated albanian patriarch throne in Gandzasar. armenian Catholicosat activated on recently habited lands. But when in 1837 it was succeded for Echmizdeen to bribe Saint Sinod and with its help to liquidate albanian patriarch throne, albanian catholicosat immediately took in hands alt albanians parishes and developed activity on spreading o1 grigorian persuasion between ancestors of albans in Karabagh. Also it is interesting to notice, that in 1978 in Maraga settlement (presently Leninavan) It is interesting to note (hat in I978 in Maraga settlement (presently I.eninavan) of Mardakert region in Upper Karabagh was established a monument in honor of 150 -anniversary (or settlement of first 200 arnienians from Maraga city (South Azerbaijan) to the lands of Azerbaijan. There is also one more interesting fact that armenians in accordance with their old well-known habit to falsify historical facts, later scraped from the monument a digit 150. Nobody could imagine that to what kind of consequences it will bring in future, for the first sight, resettlement of insignificant number of armenians to the lands of Karabagh. However still then many scientists warned about consequences of such hasty resettlement. Vciichko V.I.. writes the following on this topic; ".... incalculable is economical and spiritual damage- caused by armenian leaders to Caucasus and russian national-state business, and armenian population itself', These leaders are terrible, - like corrupters like microbes of social decomposition, like parasites , Armenians need brave, selfless satirists, which would had have courage to tell them all the truth. If russian man will say it then purpose achieves only in insignificant measure; armenian politicians now start to cry out about "persecution on armenian nation" , careless people and venal publishers accept it, which fear of disclosure, - and the truth drived into dark corner,., Let armenian patriots (the word in its true sense) think about it calmly, without false self-respect and fear in front of their unbidden boss. Let them not to identify themselves with armenian nation those trouble-makers which do not spare its blood.." (Velichko V.L.. - Caucasus, Russian concert) and intertribal questions - Full collection of works, th 1, St.-Petersburg " 1904 - Baku, "Elm", 1990). Are these words, written in the beginning of our century, are an exact reflection of our today's reality, when thousands human lifes laid on altar pitiless in its nonsense delirious idea about revival of unfortunately famous " Mother Armenia"? What's a fault of simple people, whose minds are full of false -patriotically slogans ? When these leaders will be punished, shed its nation's blood? Until what time the nation whose primordial territories and rights are trampled by such immoral way, will have to respond to the acts of monstrous vandalism of aggressors. illegal territorial pretensions of which include not only culture and history, but the most saint tiling - human lifes? Today azerbaijaninn nation suffers of this injustice, but who can be entrust that big appetites of armenian false-patriots will not be directed for another territory, because as it is well-known appetite comes with eating?



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:48

History of the Nagorno-Karabakh Region of the Republic of Azerbaijan

 The history of Karabakh is rooted in antiquity, and it is one of the historic provinces of Azerbaijan, an important political, cultural, and spiritual center. 
Territorial claims of the Armenians against the Azerbaijani people and Azerbaijan are the main reasons for the so-called "Karabakh problem". 
Karabakh (Arsakh) was inalienable part to all the state formations that have existed on the territory of northern Azerbaijan. From 4th century B.C. to 8th century A.D. the territory of the current Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan was one of the provinces of Caucasian Albania, the most ancient state of Northern Azerbaijan. After the fall of the independent Albanian state, Arsakh being inseparable from Azerbaijan both geographically and politically, was a part to the Azerbaijani state of Sajids, in 10th century - to the state of Salarids, and in 11-12th centuries - to the state of Sheddadids. During 12-13th centuries Karabakh constituted part of the Atabey-Ildenizids state, in the second half of 13th century - beginning of 15th century, during the existence of the Mongolian Khulagouid state - part of the Jalairids' state. In the 15th century it existed within the states of Gharagouynlou and Aghgouynlou, and during 16th and 17th centuries Karabakh, as a part of the Karabakh beylerbeyyat (duchy), was within the Sefevi state. The latter consisted of 4 beylerbeyyats: Shirvani, Karabakhi (also known as Ganja), Chukhursaadi (or Erivan) and Azerbaijani (or Tebriz). Karabakh, being a part of the Karabakhi beylerbeyyat, was ruled by the representatives of the Turkic Zyiad-oglu tribe, subordinated to Kajars from 16th till 19th century. In the second half of the 18th century Karabakh belonged to the Karabakh khanate (principality) and along with the latter was incorporated into Russia. 
Thus, Karabakh has never been a part of the Armenian state, which was established in Asia, far from South Caucasus. 
In the antiquity the population of Karabakh consisted of Albans, and in the early medieval period - of Albans and Turkic-speaking tribes of Barsil, Savir, Hunn, Khazar, which lived on this territory. These tribes were joined by other Turkic-speaking tribes, in particular, Roumlou, Shoumlou, Bakharlou, Kangary and etc. Language of the Albans belonged to northeastern-Caucasian family. As it has been established as a result of most recent research, tribes of that family have inhabited the territory, at least, since the mesolithic period, no less than ten thousand years ago. 
Arabic conquest of the lowlands of Albania, as well as valleys of Kura and Araz in 7th century, resulted in islamization of the population of the plains and it merging with the Turkic-speaking population of the country. However, Albanian population, ruled by Albanian Mikhranid princes, remained in the mountainous Arsakh along with the Turkic tribes. Descendants of the Mikhranid clan restored the Albanian kingdom in Arsakh in the 9th century. This kingdom was ruled by the Jalalids, descendants of Hassan-Jalal, until 15th century. 
After losing political and secular power in the 15th century, representatives of the clan of Jalal became the spiritual leaders of the country. They became Patriarch-Catolicos of the Albanian autonomous church, until 1836, when independence of the Albanian church was abolished and subordinated to the Armenian church as a result of intrigues of the Armenian clergy. 
In the 15th century the Jalalids were granted the title of Melik (count) by Jahanshah. After that the clan broke up and five melikates (smaller autonomous county) appeared in Karabakh: Goulistan, Jraberd, Khachen, Varanda and Dizak. The title of Melik was conferred upon the ruling families of the Melikates. Meliks of Karabakh in their letters to the Russian czar call themselves "descendants of the Albanian Arshakids". The Albanian princes had a title of melik, differing from Armenian titles: ishkhan, tar etc. None of the Albanian Melik families was of Armenian descent. 
Thus, the historical Albanian province of Arsakh until 19th century had been an important political, cultural, spiritual center of the remaining Albanian Christian population which managed to preserve its territorial, political, confessional unity and, importantly, - its Albanian self-conscience. 
Appearance of the first ethnic Armenian on the territory of Azerbaijan, in particular, in Karabakh, should be viewed through the prism of the Armenian people's history. 
As it is known, Armenians are not aboriginal neither in the territory of Asia Minor (historical Turkey), nor in the Caucasus. According to Armenologists, the Armenians, who belonged to the Frigian tribes, originally inhabiting the Balkans, following the Cimmerian resettlement appeared in Asia Minor in the 7th century B.C. They have further spread to the east, reaching Euphrates. The latest edition of "The history of the Armenian people" states that in the 12th century B.C. groups of Hindo-European Armenian-speaking tribes penetrated territories of the Khurrites and Louvian Khetts in the upper reaches of the Euphrates. These tribes were called as "moushku" and "urumu" by Assirian cuneiform texts, "arims" by the Greek sources, and later "Armenians". 
The first Armenian state, established in Asia Minor in the 6th century B.C., lasted until 428 and was only nominally a state being de-facto a province of the Persian and Roman Empires. Attempts to restore the Armenian kingdom were made in 9th-11th centuries and in 12th-14th centuries. Thus, in 9th-11th centuries Armenian Bagratid state, with the capital of Ani, was established in the vicinity of Kars and Erzurum. Later, in 12th-14th centuries, an Armenian Kilikian kingdom was founded in a totally different location on the northeastern shore of the Mediterranean. 
Since the 15th century the Armenian history is closely linked to the Armenian church. Significance and influence of the church have especially grown after the Catolicos' seat was moved in 1441 from Kilikia to Echmiadzin, in the vicinity of Yerevan. Since that time Echmiadzin assumed both political and general leadership in the life of the Armenians. It became the consolidating and organizing force of the Armenian people scattered across many countries. 
Thus, Azerbaijani regions of Arsakh and Sounik, partly populated by Christian Albans, had preserved confessional unity with Armenians while maintaining territorial and political unity with Azerbaijan. 
With the emergence of the Ottoman Empire Armenians lost hope to create their state in Asia Minor. This is when the Armenians turned to the Caucasus and historical Azerbaijan with the idea of forcing Azerbaijanis out of the Caucasus. Authors of "The history of the Armenian people" introduce into scientific circles the term "Eastern Armenia", by which they from 16th to 20th century mean exclusively Azerbaijani lands: Karabakh, Erevan, Ganja, Sounik-Zangezur. Thus, "Eastern Armenia" shifts both in time and space from east of the Euphrates to the Caucasus. 
Beginning from the 18th century the Armenians penetrating Russia were trying to gain favor of the Russian court, first - of the Emperor Paul I, then - Empress Catherine II by all means. Attracting them by the necessity of liberating the so-called "Eastern Armenia" from Turkish and Persian "yoke", Armenians practically aimed at cleansing Karabakh and the lands of Zangezur from Azerbaijanis, who co-existed with the fragments of Albanian Christians. Another goal was the Russian conquest of these territories. Undoubtedly, Armenian intended, by separating these lands from Azerbaijan and joining them with Russia, to continue presenting them as "Eastern Armenia", this time within Russia. In 1805 by peace negotiations Azerbaijani khanates of Karabakh (founded by Azerbaijani Panakh Ali-khan, fortress of Shusha which he erected to make the capital of the khanate, was called Panakhabad), Sheki and Shirvan were forced to accept the Russian rule. During the period of 1806-1813 through embittered wars and campaigns by Tsitsianov, Goudovich and general Kotlyarovsky the rest of the Azerbaijani khanates - principalities of Talysh, Baki, Gouba, Ganja, Derbent were conquered. Later, in 1826, Russia annexed the khanates of Nakhchivan and Yerevan, populated mostly by Turkic Azerbaijanis. 
According to official documents, Kharabakh khanate had 90,000 residents, one town and more than 600 villages, only 150 of them were Armenian. There were 1048 Azerbaijani and 474 Armenian resident families in Shusha. In villages: 12,902 and 4,331 accordingly. However, already by the end of the 19th century Nagorny Karabakh had Armenian majority of 58%, while Azerbaijanis constituted 42% of population. Influx of Armenian population in Azerbaijan, especially into Karabakh, was significant during and after World War 1. 
Increase of Armenian population in the Caucasus and concentration of predominantly pro-Russian Christian Armenians in the areas bordering Turkey and Persia was dictated by interests of Russia. In addition, this way Russia won sympathies of Armenians in Turkey and secured support in Asia Minor. 
Both Turkmanchay and Adrianopol treaties included special clauses allowing for migration of Armenians into the Caucasus, into the lands of Azerbaijan and Georgia. This is when first compact Armenian settlements appeared in Zangezur and Karabakh. In the years 1828-1830 alone 130,000 Armenians migrated. Following signing of Turkmanchay treaty in 1828 Tsarist government created new, previously non-existent political entity - the Armenian oblast (district). This district consisted of Azerbaijani lands of Erivan, Nakhchivan and Ordubad districts and was governed by Czarist bureaucrats. This was the first attempt to create an Armenian political entity on the territory of Azerbaijan. In 1849 the Armenian district was abolished and Erivan governorship created instead. 
In 1836, in order to secure support of Armenians in Turkey and trying to subordinate them to pro-Russian oriented Armenian Patriarchy in Echmiadzin, Tzarist government made a number of concessions to the Armenian Echmiadzin Church. These concessions included abolition the Albanian Patriarchy, the independent Albanian church, and subordination of it to the Armenian Gregorian church. Later, in 1909-1910, the Armenian Gregorian church with permission of the Russian Sinod destroyed archives of the Albanian church and eliminated samples of the Albanian literature. Russian historian V.L.Velichko wrote that the Armenian clergy had used similar approach to Albanian Christian shrines, the same way the Georgian monuments were treated. After abolition of the Albanian Church Albans of Karabakh became Gregorianized and some of the Albans of Karabakh migrated to the left bank of the Kura river, preserved their identity and still live in the Azerbaijani village of Nij. 
The issue of so-called "Western Armenia" is related to the situation of Turkey's Armenian population and following 1878 talks held in Berlin and San-Stefano became "the Armenian question", which implied Turkey undertaking introduce reforms in the Armenian-populated vilayets (regions). In reality, only Tzarist Russia was pushing for realization "the Armenian question". Two political parties, "GNCHAK" (1887) and "DASHNAKTSUTYUN" (1890) were created for that purpose. These parties developed ideological justification for Armenian territorial claims in the Caucasus. "DASHNAKTSUTYUN" used terrorism and armed rebellion to achieve its goal of unifying territories with Armenian migrant population from Iran and Turkey. "DASHNAKTSUTYUN" party frequently changed its orientation from pro-Russian to pro-European and then from supporting Turkish revolutionary movement back to supporting Russia. 
During the Balkan war of 1912-1914 Russia proposed creation of an autonomous Armenian district in Turkey, so-called "Western Armenia" from vilayets of Erzurum, Van, Bitlis, Diyarbakir, Harput, Sivas. This proposal was not supported by the European states. The Armenian political parties mentioned above and authorities of the Russian Empire in an attempt to contain national-liberation movement in the Caucasus provoked first clashes between Armenians and Azerbaijanis. As a result, between 1907 and 1912 about 500,000 Armenians from Iran and Turkey migrated into Kars, Erivan and Yelizavetpol districts, most of population of which were Azerbaijanis. This took place with assistance of Russian authorities in order to make inter-ethnic situation even more tense and strengthen Russia's dominance in the region. 
February and October Revolutions of 1917 marked a new stage in "the Armenian question". In October 1917 Armenian Congress convened in Tiflis and demanded Russian annexation of East Turkey's territory occupied by the Russian Army during WW1. On December, 31 the Council of Commissars adopted a decree signed by Lenin and Stalin on free self-determination of "Turkish Armenia". 
Following collapse of the Transcaucasus Parliament the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR), the first democratic state in the Muslim world, was established on May, 28 1918. One of the first steps of the ADR's government was to yield on May, 29 1918 town of Erivan (Yerevan) to Republic of Armenia, which had declared independence but had no political center. Territory of Armenian Republic was limited to Erivan and Echmiadzin districts with 400,000 residents. Later, all means were employed to implement policies aimed at changing demography of Erivan and Zangezur in favor of Armenians. 
Azerbaijan's foreign policy objectives at that period included developing friendly and neighborly relationship with Armenia. Unfortunately, "DASHNAKTSUTYUN" government of Armenia had expansionist plans and laid claims on Nakhichevan, Zangezur and Karabakh, all of which were parts of Azerbaijan. This led to the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan in 1918-1920. According to available data, during summer of 1918 alone 115 Azerbaijani villages were destroyed, 7,000 people killed and 50,000 Azerbaijanis left Zangezur. 
US President Wilson accepted instructions from the League of Nations, which stated that Armenia "cannot exist without support" and that its borders must be defined. However, the Senate decided that "the Armenian question" is a European issue and rejected the "mandate on Armenia". 
The French Government acted similarly towards Armenians regarding Kilikia, which had been occupied by France in 1919. In 1921 France concluded peace treaty with Turkey, and gave up Kilikia. 
Thus, the Armenian issue concentrated in the South Caucasus. In March - July 1920 clashes with Dashnak forces took place in Karabakh, especially in Shusha, Nakhchivan, Ordoubad. Hostilities took place in Khankendy, Terter, Askeran, Zangezur, Jebrail, Nakhchivan, Ganja, and dozens of Azerbaijani villages were destroyed. 
Independence of Azerbaijan was crushed after the Bolshevik 11th Red Army had invaded the country and the Soviet Socialist Republic of Azerbaijan was proclaimed on April 28, 1920. Soviet Russia decided not to allow turning Armenian Republic into anti-Russian bridgehead. It became a mediator in settling the border disputes between Armenia and Azerbaijan. In July 1920 Dashnak government in Erivan gave a secret order to the Dashnak military forces to begin guerilla punitive activities in Karabakh, Nakhchivan, and Zangezur. The same summer the Bolsheviks have crushed the Dashnak troops that had invaded Karabakh, and established Soviet rule here. Later, in November 1920, the Dashnak regime was overthrown in Armenia. 
The letter written in 1920 by chairman of the Revolutionary Committee of Azerbaijan N.Narimanov, member of the Caucasus regional committee of the Communist Party B.Mdivani, member the Central Committee of the Communist Party (CCCP) of Azerbaijan A.Mikoyan and member of the CCCP of Armenia A.Nourijanian, the people's commissary (minister) of foreign affairs G.Chicherin and G.Orjonikidze stated: "As far as supposedly disputed territories of Zangezur and Karabakh, that have already joined Soviet Azerbaijan, are concerned, we categorically state, that there can be no dispute about these places and they must stay within Azerbaijan. The regions of Djulfa and Nakhchivan are populated solely by Moslems... and must join with Azerbaijan". G.Orjonikidze, who in his telegrams to V.Lenin, I.Stalin, G.Chicherin has been underlining economic bent of Karabakh and Zangezur for Baku and Azerbaijan, was of the same opinion. I.A.Mikoyan said that "agents of the Armenian government, the Dashnaks, are striving for joining Karabakh with Armenia, but for the population of Karabakh it would mean to be deprived of their life-line, which is Baku, and to be connected to Erivan, with which it hasn't ever been linked in any way. " 
Responding to the territorial claims of the Armenian SSR the Caucasus bureau of the Central Committee of the Russian Communist Party at its meeting dated July 5, 1921 decided: "Proceeding from the necessity to maintain ethnic peace between Moslems and Armenians, economic ties between Highland and Lowland Karabakh, its uninterrupted ties with Azerbaijan, Nagorny Karabakh is to be left within (underlined by the edit.) the Azerbaijan SSR and to be granted broad regional autonomy with the administrative center in Shusha, which is a part of the autonomous region." Establishment of the autonomous region was not artificial, though it contradicted historic right of Azerbaijan for its own lands. It was a result of complicated situation in Nagorny Karabakh and around it. 
In 1922 the Azerbaijan SSR was included into the USSR. Within the latter the attributes of republics' independence were a formality. On July 7, 1923 the Central Executive Committee of Azerbaijan issued a decree "On the establishment of Nagorno-Karabakh autonomous region". Thus, the government of the Azerbaijan SSR by the act of law created an autonomy on the territory of Azerbaijan in the interests of its Armenian citizens. At the same time, three hundred thousands of Azerbaijanis who have lived in compact settlements in Armenia were refused even cultural autonomy by the governments of both the USSR and the Armenian SSR. That violated their rights and had eventually led to multiple deportations in 1948-1950 and to more than one dramatic forced resettlement from Armenia, including more than 200, 000 in 1988-1989 alone. 
It is necessary to emphasize that after the establishment of Soviet rule all over the South Caucasus in 1921, the territories that had been captured and separated from the Republic of Azerbaijan weren't claimed by the government of the Azerbaijan SSR. On the contrary, the next, "peaceful" stage of separation started with the assistance of communist leadership of Russia and the Soviet Union. In 1921 "acquisition" of the province of Zangezur by Armenia was legalized, which led to complete isolation of Nakhchivan from Azerbaijan. In 1922 the Bolsheviks dealt with Azerbaijani territories of Dilijan and Geycha in a similar manner. In 1929 several villages were separated from Nakhchivan and transferred to Armenian SSR. In 1969 the Armenian SSR again extended its territory by acquiring Azerbaijani lands, this time - in the Kedabey district. In 1984 under the pressure from central authorities, as it had been in the previous years, Azerbaijan handed a number of villages in the district of Gazakh to Armenia. Taking into account the above, it's crucially important to underline that as of January 1, 1920 the territory of the Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan was 113,900 square km. Now the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan is 86,600 square km. According to the population census of 1989, the population of the Autonomous Region of Nagorny Karabakh (ARNK) was 186,100. 138,600 of them were Armenians (73,5%) and 47,500 Azerbaijanis (25,3%). The new stage of the Armenian-Azerbaijan confrontation at the end of the 1980s was caused not by the far-fetched suppositions about "discrimination of the Armenian minority" in Azerbaijan and economic hardships, but by the beginning of implementation of long-conceived plans of expansion. The most favorable conditions for that were created in the period of collapse. Beginning in February 1988, Armenia, with the connivance of the leadership of the USSR, instigated anti-constitutional activities by the administrative structures of the ARNK. Those steps became the prologue of the wide-scale armed aggression of Armenia against Azerbaijan. 


Memorial "Maraga - 150" mounted in 1978 on the occasion of 150 anniversary of arrival of Armenians from Persian region Maraga to Karabakh. In 1988 as the Armenians in Nagorny Karabakh began "realisation of right of the nation for self-determination" inscription on the memorial "Maraga - 150" immediately disappeared. 



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:53
Originally posted by Qajar

ALEKPER ALEKPEROV, doctor of philosophy Azerbaijan University


     Is this guy even an accredited historian? It says he's a doctor of philosophy...not history. Thats apparent, since he's trying to prove ancestry from the similarity of a few words and names. Playing word games is different from establishing a historical fact.

His introduction to the essay ends with:

On the basis of the comparative analysis of written sources and onomastic material, the author disproves the idea on settlement of Albania by the Turkic people.

     The author disproves the idea on settlement of Albania by the Turkic people? That kind of goes against your whole point doesn't it? 

     I won't bother reading the rest. Its rubbish.


-------------
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 22:57

I won't bother reading the rest. Its rubbish.
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------

You can read whatever you want

The Karabagh land is azerbaijani territory, recognised by whole world. If your goverment don't want to put armenian nation in trouble again, they should withdrow all occupation forces from there. If not,it is going to be a war.



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:01
Armenians are greatest falsificators in the world. You improved your falsification skills during last few centuries in order to make claim over azerbaijani, turkish, georgian and even iranian land. So we are only in our learning curve in order to destroy your fake history and nationalistics claims against our nation.

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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:03
Originally posted by Qajar

The Karabagh land is azerbaijani territory, recognised by whole world.


     I have said this about 10 times, and you still haven't addressed it, since you don't read anything anyone else writes. Karabagh was an autonomous enclave within the Soviet Union, and after its collapse, made its own decision (since it was AUTONOMOUS) to annex itself to Armenia (through a democratic vote). Azerbaijan did not acknowledge this, and sent in its military to occupy the province. Armenians of the province kicked them out (not the Republic of Armenia). So how was it legal for Azerbaijan to send its military into the province?

Originally posted by Qajar

If your goverment don't want to put armenian nation in trouble again, they should withdrow all occupation forces from there. If not,it is going to be a war.


     Azerbaijan lost the last war, incase you hadn't heard. And that was when they actually had soldiers stationed in Karabagh. I'd like to see them win a war fighting up a mountain, when they couldn't even do it on top of one


-------------
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:05
Originally posted by Qajar

Armenians are greatest falsificators in the world. You improved your falsification skills during last few centuries in order to make claim over azerbaijani, turkish, georgian and even iranian land. So we are only in our learning curve in order to destroy your fake history and nationalistics claims against our nation.


     Why do you generalize all Armenians in a negative light? If someone asked me, I'd say you're racist.


-------------
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:08

Qajar, you have to show the link to the article.

these articles are baseless unless we know where you got it from. post the links, and then i will read them.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:11
I wouldnt be surprised if its something like: www.karabakhisours.az/...


-------------


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:12

I have said this about 10 times, and you still haven't addressed it, since you don't read anything anyone else writes. Karabagh was an autonomous enclave within the Soviet Union, and after its collapse, made its own decision (since it was AUTONOMOUS) to annex itself to Armenia (through a democratic vote). Azerbaijan did not acknowledge this, and sent in its military to occupy the province. Armenians of the province kicked them out (not the Republic of Armenai). So how was it legal for Azerbaijan to send its military into the province?

------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------

What are you talking about??????

Nagorniy Karabagh was autonomous province within Azerbaijan SSR. It was entiry part of Azerbaijan Republic with delegated rights to the republican government. The constitution of Azerbaijan SSR was applied to Karabagh as a part of the republic. The consitution of Azerbaijan SSR says: " if any part of Azerbaijan SSR wants to separate from Azerbaijan SSR, it should be decided on republican referendum". ...so it's means, that if Karabagh wanted to separate from Azerbaijan SSR, there should be a referendum across all Azerbaijan's population.

Armenia was the key player in this process and in the war itself.

Karabagh was internationally recognised part of Azerbaijan Demokratik Republik, Azerbaijan SSR and Azerbaijan Republik. Before that Karabakh Khanat was part of azerbaijani etnic region and was ruled by azerbaijani dinasty od Panax xan Dzhevanshir. The treaty between Russian Empire and Karabakh khanat was signed by azerbaijani ruler of Karabakh khanat Panax khan Dzhevanshir.

It was never been part of Armenia, which was never exist in our region.

 



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:16

Qajar, you have to show the link to the article.

these articles are baseless unless we know where you got it from. post the links, and then i will read them.

------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------

With big pleasure. You can find a lot of interesting there about caucasion history and specially about caucasion Albania.

http://www.caucasianhistory.org - http://www.caucasianhistory.org

 



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:17
Originally posted by Qajar

so it's means, that if Karabagh wanted to separate from Azerbaijan SSR, there should be a referendum across all Azerbaijan's population.


     No, thats the whole point of being autonomous. Plus, why should Azerbaijan control lands where over 3 out of 4 people are Armenian?

     According to this logic, why should Uyghurs have the right to break away from China? Or Turkish Cypriots from Cyprus? You seem to support both groups, while condemning the Armenians for doing the same thing. Very hypocritical if you ask me...


-------------
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:20

Why do you generalize all Armenians in a negative light? If someone asked me, I'd say you're racist.
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------

I mean armenian nacionalists and shovinists. And before occupation armenian forces wouldn't be kicked off from my land, they are my anemies. And I think it's absolutely understandable feeling.



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:30

No, thats the whole point of being autonomous.

------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------

No, it seems tome that you don't know the soviet constitution

Karabagh was even not autonomous republic, it was autonoumos province. They even didn't have a local government. Their local ruler was at the same time a second deputy of Azerbaijani Head of Parlament.

The only legal rule of separating from Azerbaijan was national referendum. Like in whole Soviet Union. In 1990 it was a referendum, when all soviet population voted for transformation of USSR.

You don't know basic rules or you know them but not saying true..

 

Plus, why should Azerbaijan control lands where over 3 out of 4 people are Armenian?

------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------

Why Russia should contol Tatarstan, Bashkirstan, Chechnya, Dagestan, Yakutia and all the rest provinces. Why France should contol Corsika?..Why Spain should control bascs region??..Why Georgia should control Abxaziya, Osetia, Dzhavaxetiya, Marneuli and others????...Why Iran should control South Azerbaijan?????....Why Britain should control Scotland, Ireland, Wels???....and many other examples.



     According to this logic, why should Uyghurs have the right to break away from China? Or Turkish Cypriots from Cyprus? You seem to support both groups, while condemning the Armenians for doing the same thing. Very hypocritical if you ask me...

------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------

I don't know nothing about uygurs

Cyprus is different situation.



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:36
Originally posted by Qajar

Why Russia should contol Tatarstan, Bashkirstan, Chechnya, Dagestan, Yakutia and all the rest provinces. Why France should contol Corsika?..Why Spain should control bascs region??..Why Georgia should control Abxaziya, Osetia, Dzhavaxetiya, Marneuli and others????...Why Iran should control South Azerbaijan?????....Why Britain should control Scotland, Ireland, Wels???....and many other examples.


     Because those countries are strong enough to do so. Obviously Azerbaijan was not strong enough to control an Armenian province, so they don't deserve to do so.

Originally posted by Qajar

Cyprus is different situation.


     Of course its different. Turks are the occupiers, so its justified by your standards.


-------------
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:41
Should I think of Turks as my enemies since they are on my "land" then?

-------------


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:43

Because those countries are strong enough to do so. Obviously Azerbaijan was not strong enough to control an Armenian province, so they don't deserve to do so.

------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------

Of course we weren't strong against russian military forces and their armenian puppets.

But time is working for us my dear. Iran -your closest friend will be isolated soon with economic sanctions and may be more. Russian President Putin visiting Baku almoust every year now. He will not help you any more when war started. Georgia is a closest ally of Azerbaijan and Turkey. Azerbaijan militarry budget was $600 mlns this year and next year it will reach $1bln. Turkish officers are working very hard during last 10 years with our elite forces.

So, it means, that we are going to meet in the final battle. And believe me, occupants would be kicked off from my land for forever. And now Good Night my dear friend!!!



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:46

Should I think of Turks as my enemies since they are on my "land" then?
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------

Unfortunately for you my friend, but there is no such internationally recognised term as " armenian land in Turkey"

But of course you can have your own opinion about everyone. No doubts.



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:49
"But of course you can have your own opinion about everyone. No doubts."

just like you right?

haha, and if our best ally is a country run by Azeries, who is going to be your ally?

maybe you should change the name of the country to Turkmenistan...whoops taken...or maybe Islamistan? you know...garner some muslim support, but then again, you guys are atheist, so they will probably help Armenia too


-------------


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:49

Because those countries are strong enough to do so. Obviously Azerbaijan was not strong enough to control an Armenian province, so they don't deserve to do so.

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------

Oh my friend, one more thing. Base on your logic, the Ottoman Empire was great country, because they were strong enough to control armenians there



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:51

just like you right?

-----------------------

agreed



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:55
Originally posted by Qajar

Because those countries are strong enough to do so. Obviously Azerbaijan was not strong enough to control an Armenian province, so they don't deserve to do so.

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------

Oh my friend, one more thing. Base on your logic, the Ottoman Empire was great country, because they were strong enough to control armenians there



at a time? undoubtedly...


-------------


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:12

haha, and if our best ally is a country run by Azeries, who is going to be your ally?

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------

They are islamists. It's different story.



maybe you should change the name of the country to Turkmenistan...whoops taken...or maybe Islamistan? you know...garner some muslim support, but then again, you guys are atheist, so they will probably help Armenia too

------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------

My friend. Our hope is azerbaijani nation. We are great nation with superb future and I believe that our Victory would be gained by tramendous efforts of the whole azerbaijani nation.

Our ally????.......We have only one ally for forever - Turkey!!!

It is Mother Turkey for all turks in anatolia, iran and caucauses.

But we don't want Turkey participate in the future war. It is our land and we should do it for ourselves first. We should restore justice for ourselves and for our children and not for anyone else. It is our land and we will fight for it. I am waiting every day and every hour to hear this news from Baku to buy a ticket and fight for my soul and my nation. And I know that there are tens of thousands young and educated azerbaijanis who wants to back home and fight for the country.

There is nothing worse in the world than a war, but sometimes it's the only option. And all blood and deaths would be in armenian nacionalists hands, because they don't want piece and friendly life with their neighbours. 



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:18

Originally posted by Qajar

haha, and if our best ally is a country run by Azeries, who is going to be your ally?

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------

They are islamists. It's different story.

no, its not that they are islamists, its that they are iranian, and know that azerbaijan republic means nothing, its just another territory that was taken by russia from iran. but armenians and iran have had relations for thousands of years, eve before christianity.

Originally posted by Qajar

It is Mother Turkey for all turks in anatolia, iran and caucauses.

which turks in iran? the same turks that have stayed loyal to iran and have died for iran against the ottomans, the arabs, the russians, and the british?

Qajar, let me tell you something about armenians and iran.

during the clashes between turks and armenians in the ottoman empire, many many armenians went to iran for safety.  their population, mixed with the population of armenians already in iran (notably isfahan), caused friction between the iranians already living there and the armenians moving.

this caused an anti armenian riot, but unlike what happened in the ottoman empire, the government of iran stopped the anti armenian protests, imprisoned many of the rioters, and made sure that the armenians would be safe for the rest of their stay.

now, why would the iranian government help the armenians then, as well as now? its because iran has always had a good relationship with armenians, and they have helped iran a lot, and so its not surprising that iran supported armenia over azerbaijan republic, which denies that its iranian.

 



-------------
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:19
Originally posted by Qajar

Unfortunately for you my friend, but there is no such internationally recognised term as " armenian land in Turkey"


     For Turks to use "internationally recognized terms" as evidence, its funny that they also condemn the international community for accepting the Armenian Genocide. Very selective in your sources , aren't you?

     Also, you have some kind of wet-dream that Turkey, Georgia, Russia and Iran are going to help Azerbaijan destroy Armenia. This is funnier than most of the Pan-Turkic paranoias, such as "Armenians and Russians conspiring to destroy all Turks"


-------------
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:20

I thought Albanians were from the Balkans? From the Albanian I talked to, he said that they are direct decendants of Illyrians, and they got their name from a tribe in the Balkans, Albanoi.

Isn't that quite a distance for Illyrian tribes? I understand that there could have been a migration, but for them to be considered Albanian? I don't, seems alittle strange to me. 



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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey


Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:24

Originally posted by prsn41ife

Originally posted by Qajar

haha, and if our best ally is a country run by Azeries, who is going to be your ally?

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------

They are islamists. It's different story.

no, its not that they are islamists, its that they are iranian, and know that azerbaijan republic means nothing, its just another territory that was taken by russia from iran. but armenians and iran have had relations for thousands of years, eve before christianity.

Originally posted by Qajar

It is Mother Turkey for all turks in anatolia, iran and caucauses.

which turks in iran? the same turks that have stayed loyal to iran and have died for iran against the ottomans, the arabs, the russians, and the british?

Qajar, let me tell you something about armenians and iran.

during the clashes between turks and armenians in the ottoman empire, many many armenians went to iran for safety.  their population, mixed with the population of armenians already in iran (notably isfahan), caused friction between the iranians already living there and the armenians moving.

this caused an anti armenian riot, but unlike what happened in the ottoman empire, the government of iran stopped the anti armenian protests, imprisoned many of the rioters, and made sure that the armenians would be safe for the rest of their stay.

now, why would the iranian government help the armenians then, as well as now? its because iran has always had a good relationship with armenians, and they have helped iran a lot, and so its not surprising that iran supported armenia over azerbaijan republic, which denies that its iranian.

 

And the same Turks who denied to accept 10 milion of dollars to become turk, becouse they say they are Iranians and loyal to Iran?



-------------


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:24
S&D,

     There are 2 "Albania"s. One is the country in the Balkans that we know of today, and the other was an ancient kingdom in the Caucasus that we now know as Caucasian Albania. Caucasian Albania consisted of present-day Eastern Azerbaijan (the western part of today's Azerbaijan, e.i., Karabakh, was part of the old Armenian kingdoms for many eras of history). Many people don't know about Caucasian Albania, so its easy to get the 2 terms mixed up.

     Azeri propagandists claim that their ancestors are the Caucasian Albanians (in order to justify Karabakh as Azerbaijani land, even though the majority of the population has always been Armenian). This is not accepted by any sober historian. Caucasian Albanians (who were Christian, btw) cannot be Turkic Azeris (who are Muslim) and still claim the same land....you see where they are going with this, don't you?


-------------
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:26
Originally posted by Maziar

And the same Turks who denied to accept 10 milion of dollars to become turk, becouse they say they are Iranians and loyal to Iran?

Qajar, take a good look at this man. he would laugh in your face if he saw the things you were writing.

he is azeri, and he knows that he is IRANIAN.



-------------
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:27

no, its not that they are islamists, its that they are iranian, and know that azerbaijan republic means nothing, its just another territory that was taken by russia from iran. but armenians and iran have had relations for thousands of years, eve before christianity.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------

In Tehran yes of course. But I am talking about South Azerbaijan and it's people. They are azerbaijani turks and they are part of the turkish etnic world.

The greatest shah Ismail I of Sefevids as you know was azerbaijani turk and he was prokclaimed a Shah of Azerbaijan and after that he joined persian territory to Azerbaijan.  So, who was part of whom???????

 

I don't care about armenian-iranian relations now.Iran is a devil country and should be in isolation soon. After this happened, armenia would be blocked from Iran side as well. This is only what we need.

At the same time mister Chexragani is working hard in order to restore justice for azerbaijani turks in South Azerbaijan

 

 

which turks in iran? the same turks that have stayed loyal to iran and have died for iran against the ottomans, the arabs, the russians, and the british?

------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------

It was a war between two turkish empires - Ottomans ruled by sultan Selim and sefevids ruled by shah Islmail



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:29
Originally posted by Qajar

no, its not that they are islamists, its that they are iranian, and know that azerbaijan republic means nothing, its just another territory that was taken by russia from iran. but armenians and iran have had relations for thousands of years, eve before christianity.

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In Tehran yes of course. But I am talking about South Azerbaijan and it's people. They are azerbaijani turks and they are part of the turkish etnic world.

The greatest shah Ismail I of Sefevids as you know was azerbaijani turk and he was prokclaimed a Shah of Azerbaijan and after that he joined persian territory to Azerbaijan.  So, who was part of whom???????

 

I don't care about armenian-iranian relations now.Iran is a devil country and should be in isolation soon. After this happened, armenia would be blocked from Iran side as well. This is only what we need.

At the same time mister Chexragani is working hard in order to restore justice for azerbaijani turks in South Azerbaijan

 

 

which turks in iran? the same turks that have stayed loyal to iran and have died for iran against the ottomans, the arabs, the russians, and the british?

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It was a war between two turkish empires - Ottomans ruled by sultan Selim and sefevids ruled by shah Islmail

you dont know anything about iranian history.

if you knew, you would realise that everything you are taught is a lie. please, read into the history of iran from a non turkish source, read about the resistance of against the arabs, and the ideology of the qajar's and safavids.

i dont have time to explain this now, but you need to teach yourself the truth.

and are you sure the wars between the sfavids and ottomans was between to turkic empires?

its funny, because the Safavids called themselves iranians, called the land Iran, and referred to themselves and their country as Persia when they went abroad. now would you still say they considered themselves a turkish empire?



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:33

I thought Albanians were from the Balkans? From the Albanian I talked to, he said that they are direct decendants of Illyrians, and they got their name from a tribe in the Balkans, Albanoi.

Isn't that quite a distance for Illyrian tribes? I understand that there could have been a migration, but for them to be considered Albanian? I don't, seems alittle strange to me. 

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Caucasus - is a cradle of ancient civilisations, created by people inhabited this territory, which preserved rich material and cultural legacy of ancient state Albania. Azerbaijan is a heir of Caucasian Albania and subsequent formations at its territory, and Albanians are the ones of ancestors of Azerbaijan nation. The most ancient Christian church in Caucasus - is Albanian church Kish, established in 1 -2 century A.D by apostle Elysee in Sheki region, and also temples Gandzasar and Amaras in Karabagh are still remained uptoday at places where at present live descendants of gunns, gels, alpnas, legs and udins.

Azerbaijan Republic is a neir of Caucasian Albania and Karabgh is a historical part of ancient Albania and modern Azerbaijan.



-------------
Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:38

its funny, because the Safavids called themselves iranians, called the land Iran, and referred to themselves and their country as Persia when they went abroad. now would you still say they considered themselves a turkish empire?

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Of course my friend. Because the founder of Sefevids Empire was azerbaijani -turk Ismail. His dinasty was azerbaijani-turk dinasty and the home country was Azerbaijan. He was proclaimed as a Shah of Azerbaijan and only after he joint persian lands to Azerbaijan.

His elite millitary forces was consist of azerbaijan-turk traibs of kizilbashs. The all aristocrasy of his empire was azerbaijani-turk. He even speak and write in azerbaijani-turkish language. You can go and read his poetry which was written in azerbaijani-turkish language.

It was purely azerbaijani-turkish empire. With no doubts.



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:47

Qajar, take a good look at this man. he would laugh in your face if he saw the things you were writing.

he is azeri, and he knows that he is IRANIAN.

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look at these people and they are proud to be a azerbaijani-turks. they are all leaving in South Azerbaijan.

take and look on them my friend.



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:48


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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:48


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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.


Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 00:49

Azerbaijani people going to Babek-gala in South of Azerbaijan.



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Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.



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