Yes from me as well. A Turkish entrance in the EU will greatly benefit Greek commerce in the area.

Not to mention that Turkey will be forced to close all pending bilateral issues before that happens

belive me mixcoatl,we will definatlu solve human rights,and cyprus(look at Ionian,me and alparslan)but the armenian genocide will never be solved,turkey will never accept it

On the other hand,we CAN open the border and lift the ambargo if armenia recognises lausanne treaty,then maybe ignoring the "genocide" we'll be set

No, Turkey shouldnt be in EU, it is better for both us and Europeans...

Dont get me wrong, I am not just considering the social and cultural background of this issue, but mostly our benefits and European benefits. To me, it is EU who needs us much more than we will need it in future. And I dont think EU will last forever, because it's weakness of unification can be realized even in the issue of Iraq and NATO. France and Germany are way improved and powerful countries than the American allies of England and Spain, and there is no real union btw those countries...

Spain is not a US ally any more. Zapatero won, remember?

In anycase, all countries are allies to the US when they fight for common good. But potentially we're all enemies when they fight for the selfish interests of the Military/Industrial regime and lie to their allies in the most shameless way.

If Turkey's entrance in EU means that it's ideology will change,then yes.If not,then they should stay were they are.

what ideology

and to those no saying turksih members

"KINIYORUM"

NOOOOOOOOOO it WON'T,we should join,EU!EU!EU!EU!EU!EU!EU!EU!EU!

Akinci dont act like a child, grow up and you will see how dangerous it is to join to EU...

Turkey should unify the Turkic states around him, beginning wit Azerbaycan and so on so on...

so ill vote for NON !

Will the question about Turkey accesion to EU break the Paris-Berlin axis?

Typical french or european posts here i see...

Wy do you worrying abou us? Who said we gonna join EU or who said we want it?

But for you it has another meaning if Turkey joins Eu. You will say "Hey mam Turks are coming HIDE HIDE HIDE" Because you sir are SCARED OF US...

exharcus now i see why you are complaining,we are not jumping on france,we are jumping on you

ankara may be the capital but our european part is the heart of turkey,econimically and in lots of other ways.So if you are saying that we have very little land on europe,then why did the EU ask switzerland to join?Isn't it "small"?

We do have land in europe,we have been in europe for 600 years,and our land in europe is small,but an importrant part.

If istanbul is an important part for turkey but not europe,you wouldn't mind us closing the boðaz would you?we'll see how little damage could come from such %5 land?

 No you do not.

Until then we shall see.

NO!! Turkey is not in Europe. We are different. We can be good neigbours but nothing more.....

Thanks for your "no" but Turkey has been accepted by European Union to start the negotiations on 3 of October 2005. EU has accepted that Turkey has fulfilled the Copenhagen criteria including human right issues. Abusing human rights issues to say No to Turkey's entrence is not fair.

For Cyprus, Turkish side voted in referandum YES for United Nation's Annan Plan which was also supported by EU. But Greek side has rejected it. So the problem should be solved by Greek side not by Turkey.

So called Armenian genocide issue will never be accepted by Turkish people and the Turkish state. Forget about it. 

yeah we are in africa.

if everything was left to you we'd be the small turan state with bows and arrows,now i really understand what beylerbeyi meant....

Yannis wrote :

### Yes from me as well. A Turkish entrance in the EU will greatly benefit Greek commerce in the area.

Not to mention that Turkey will be forced to close all pending bilateral issues before that happens ###

I am sorry Yannis , but it seems u r not well informed....Up to now the commerce balance between Turkey and Greece , is in favor of Turkey .... and NOT Greece ... So it is at least not in the near future any change in favor of Greece will happen ...So this is out of the question.

IF and this is a great IF Turkey is serious about solving in good faith all the issues between her and Greece , why should she do this be done on the way to a full membership ?? The picture shows more that Turkey is blackmailing EU , than a good will to solve problems ... And what r these problems ??? According to Greece , there is only ONE problem .... The acceptance from Turkey , of the International Maritime Law , the Law of the Seas and nothing else...Of course we dont discuss here the Cyprus problem ...

Yannis wrote :

### Spain is not a US ally any more. Zapatero won, remember? ###

So , what Yannis ?? And Blair is considered to be a socialist , but he accepted the bombing of Serbia , as it was accepted by the Spamish prime minister back then...

Exarhus wrote :

### When I look at a map I see 95% (at least) of Turkey is in Asia. You don't need to be a genius in geography to see it. The Bosphorus is the limit, only a small part of Turkey is in Europe, the largest (euphemism) part of it is in asia, the largest part of its population is in asia. That should settle it. ###

Correct Exarhus ... The land that Turks are occupying in the Balkans , is just 5 or 6% of their total land mass...But even that is not important... The most important is the mentality that these people have . It is totally unEuropean....No democracy , or respect of it ... no free speech , no respect in their own signatures as a nation...no respect to any international law... All in all Turkey is a terroristic country inside as well as outside too...

So , lets have an analysis....

Commerse..... Turkeys position and Turkey's relations with the Arab countries show that her closest market to buy and sell products is Europe...This can be done , without Turkey being a member of EU ....

Cheap labor ... IF Europe solves first her own problems with the unemployment and the social security problems , then IF she is in need of cheap labor , she can invite , a selective number of Turks to work for certai periods of time to Europe. Turks are incapable to mix with the Europeans and this is evident in all countries of Europe where they are present . They form ghettoe's and live by their own , isolated ... even from their co-muslim "brothers" the Arabs...It is more than evident the hate Arabs have towards Turks and Europe is not ready to have these toubles inside her.

The attempt to force Turkey as a member of EU , starts from USA and her main ally in Europe ( her poodle ) England. USA have decided that for too many years have been giving hard dollars to the economical black hole that represents Turkey's economy. They simply cannot afford her anymore.Her military value in our modern age have touched bottom line , so why keep feeding her ?? Let Europe handle her , feed her ....Another evident issue is that in this way USA , keeps Europe distracted and away from a possible United States Of Europe , a political organization equal to her in economy , even better than her ...Of course Europe has no Army ....but by European standards this can be solved easily if Europe signs a military agreement with Russia .... The combined power that Europe+Russia will present in economy and military fields will be enormous , posing a threat to American interests in the oil fields ( energy control ) as USA is far away from the area and have to spend a lot of money keeping troops so far away from home.But Europe is NEAR...

So Turkey's possible , even future membership will help USA to keep Europe under control ...England and Turkey , with the opportunistic help of any other country will give USA the tools to keep Europe divided and a simple commercial organisation.

It is against ANY European interest to accept Turkey as a member of EU...all in all it will be a total disaster economically and politicaly.

The NO of the French , and Holland , is a good sign ...At least it has postponned Turkeys membeship for at least another ten years..

Until then .... we will see...It will sure be another world..

Isk..

Correct Exarhus ... The land that Turks are occupying in the Balkans , is just 5 or 6% of their total land mass...But even that is not important... The most important is the mentality that these people have . It is totally unEuropean....No democracy , ar respecy of it ... no free speech , no respect in their own signatures as a nation...no respect to any international law... All in all Turkey is a terroristic country inside as well as outside too...

Ýgnorant fool!how dare you say that!such hatred must burn you inside out to be such racist!you told me that you were an engineer,had frinds in "ISTANBUL" but that i don't belive.An electrical engineer with turkish friends cannot say that

Maybe you graduated from a third call,even a non class university and have addicts as turkish freinds,i don't know about that then

I bet that you incompetence in discussions are as the same as your level of fake diploma

Your mind is filled with prejudice.Until you get over that do not post in such disussions.Usually it's only junk tha piss people off

Yep...and a very bad show too...

Isk..

NO from me.

I love to irritiate Greeks. if Turkey enter EU I can not irritiate them

I think price of entering EU is more than its benefit.

why?

what can we gain?

Exactly .... This is what is proposed by Germany's next chansellor Angela Merckel... and it is the best proposal so far..

Not a semi-membership , but a special status , let's say as the most favored country for commerce..

U see Spain having a foothole in Africa it might as well become a member of NAF ( North Africa Federation ) which will mean that Morocco will ask to be a member of the EU , and so on...

If EU wants to prosper , she has to take the route of becoming the United States of Europe . And this means only European countries..not Asiatic , or African..

Isk..

iskenderani wrote:

"IF and this is a great IF Turkey is serious about solving in good faith all the issues between her and Greece , why should she do this be done on the way to a full membership ?? The picture shows more that Turkey is blackmailing EU , than a good will to solve problems ... And what r these problems ??? According to Greece , there is only ONE problem .... The acceptance from Turkey , of the International Maritime Law , the Law of the Seas and nothing else...Of course we dont discuss here the Cyprus problem ..."

My dear friend.

Firstly what I saw is, It is Greece and cyprus who blackmailing us with EU.So help us with your tiny vote power. I dont realy care much about EU.

The other think, What you said about the International Maritime Law is against the agrement we made with greece,Treaty of Lausanne signed in 1923. So I see, Greece is have not enough honour to apply treaty they signed.

iskenderani wrote: "All in all Turkey is a terroristic country inside as well as outside too..."

My friend I think you have Forgetfulness problem, so I will try to help you, As a good Turk.

All world accept Abdullah Ocalan as a bloody terrorist. And It was greeks who helped him much. So I think If we search for a terroristic country, we can find easily Greece as a terroristic country.

I dont care about EU.

But pls my Greek friend dont lie people.

Please,everybody, retain a good lvl to the discussion.It is ridiculous to discuss with bul******.

Spartakus my friend,

tell this to our greek friend iskenderani.

I dont want to say Greece " dishonoured and terorist country" but he just dont give other alternatives to us. So we will belittle each other and Neither  Greece nor Turkey will benefit from it. It is iskenderani's choice to be agresive or not, but It would not give any benefit us. So please stop him. I dont like this type of argument.

Yes That is true. Turkey need EU. But we should make cost-benefit analysis. When we began to try for entering EU, Benefit of EU is more than cost of EU . at now while cost is increasing, benefits are decreasing.  I dont think anymore to enter EU is a rational decision. We already have a trade union with EU. So our economic wont be that much bad. Yes It would be worse but I am sure we can survive.

How does a country, with a landmass in europe, become non-european? Answer:  When that country is Turkey.

Note to all naysayers that ever used the above mentioned reasoning:  Toss out the niceties and come out with it. Don't use this excuse anymore. Get creative will ya.

Right, maybe we shall impose WW1, WW2 and other agreements on the Turkish straights, Agean, and the Greek Islands.. If any island contains any military object, then sort of force majore.. of contract.. then I would like to sea greece sail a boat in the area..
And maybe you have no clue on the International Maritime Law, nor the International Aerospace laws you might look it up it will do you good..

## First of all , u must be informed that the treaty Turkey has signed clarifies that the Dardanelles Straights , will be called by this name and any renaming it is a violation of the treaty. So the naming of the straights as "Turkish" is illegal.
But...it is typical for your country NOT to honor her signature...
As for the Int. Mar. Law , it will be good to read it , although ur country have not signed it.As for the Aerospace laws u keep on violating them too , resulting in some cases that ur pilots , exercise in swimming into the Aegean...As for the Greek islands , as u have accepted their status , u have also printed ur maps accordingly...
But u can keep on dreaming ...its cheap ..##

Actually, maybe thats what you would like, Turkey to be a terroristic country?  In such a case I would love to see a greek politician blabber on about the agean, or anything against Turkey for that matter..  right.. we need a dictator a maniac over here just to bomb greece for the sake of argument.. I wonder who would be able to stop us..  hahahaha a greek tradegy.. or should I say oops.. they attacked for once.. (the same goes for the french)

## No , actually it is not good to have a terroristic country as a neighbor. As for Greek politicians they have nothing to say about the Aegean... Whatever was needed , it has been said.As for ur need of maniacs or dictators , its easy to find them ...ur country is full of them , so full that u cant even speak free...##

First of all, arabs are not our muslim-brothers, they are the back-stabbers that sold out the ottoman empire to your European mentality.. so they should be closer to your understanding of European ideal. Not us, we dont backstab.. Apart from that there is just mutual respect and a sort of understanding.. Turks living in Europe are to my knowledge mainly of rural areas of turkey, and are not used to being in such cities. EU, well cheap labour.. actually we are in a loss due to one sided trade agreements with the EU.. if not in europe then why not reconsider these, or help other countries be in the market through turkey.. so either way it works for us..

## I really dont care about ur feelings towards Arabs. Anyway , for one , they honor their signatures unlike u.As for the markets , according to me , it is better to open the North African market . Cheap labour too and no commitments and of course a much wider market ##

You dont seem to have a clue on the Turkish economy, and who sponsors the economy..

## USA through the International Bank..., recently u got 8 million US $ "aide" straight from USA..everybody knows these..##

Think of it this way, europe will not be able to take any more Black see countries because simply Russia or Surrounding countries wont let it.. nor will EU be able to continue with Cyprus.. once it shoves away Turkey as it would mean that Turkey will persue other political and strategical issues.. which will in the end be Greek Nightmare v1.0

## Dreaming again ?? And do not worry. In 2007 , Bulgaria and Rumania , will be members of EU and they r both Black sea countries...So , i dont worry at all. As for Cyprus , u r free to pursue any political or strategical issue u will see best for ur interests.As for nightmares , stop looking too many late shows..##

Technically speaking EU will never be able to match the US ever in politics.. as the saying goes "Too many cooks, spoil the broth". For that to happen EU has to take a more non democratical politics.

## This is ur opinion , but it remains to be seen . ##

Europe has an army, the problem is that not all of EU is in NATO, and that EU wants to use NATO resources and equipment to power such an army which in essence it will use to protect itself.. (which I see as b....t)

## No , EU has no organised army controlled by her alone.And as u probably dont know NATO resourses do belong to European countries as well , not omly USA.By using the bases in her soil , she can do very well without the Americans or the Canadians , or the Turks. But all these are just thoughts that their value will have to be proven ##

Actually you're about a decade late with this idea.. it was an italian ministers proposal to take in "Turkey, Russia, Belarus" to make EU a military superpower.

## Well , Italians...what u expect ?? Turkey and Belarus , military powers...An Italian joke , but well what the hell , they have nice music..In military , they are way behind even from Greece. ##

Russia is not dependant of EU nor will it ever fantasize in doing so, nor will it make an agreement with such an unstable organization whos values change with the breeze and who contains NATO countries.

## For ur info Russia IS dependant in EU... All her commerce goes through EU. Actually , Russia is begging for such an agreement , as it will open her all the routes she does NOT have ##

Why open your market to a hungry EU mob?.. nothing to gain.

## Is it possible that in here u wrote something different of what u were actually thinking ?? HUNGRY EU MOB ??? It is in my understanding that Russia does have hungry mobs , but definitely NOT EU...##

Actually thanks to Greek,Italian and french politicians support and financing of terrorist organizations, and making agreements in the ME.. Turkey played some nice cards making, Black Sea economic union type treaty, and due to NATO backstabing some hefty military agreements with Russia (strategical, war, terrorism...related)
About the Oil fields ..  haha Russia has equal or more amount of contracts in the region than EU, has.. why share? again.. not logical at all..

## Well i really hope u r not under any medication. How did u arrived in the conclusion that Greece Italy and France have anything to do with terrorism , is beyond anybody's understanding.As for the Black Sea Forum , Greece is also a member...or dont u know it ?? As for the Russian agreements , Russia does them with all countries , no exception of u.
For the oil fields .... yes Russia has lots of it , but with a poor quality much poorer than the Arab oil. Nevertheless , she also needs to tranfer it and this is why the Burgass-Alexandropolis pipe line was built and why another pipe line is scheduled to start from Bulgaria to the Adriatic sea...She will share for sure...gaining in technolgy and know-how. ##

Turkey, is not under US control at all, nor is there many US symphatisers especially after 'Bush'. We seem closer due to simple fact of EU pushing us away constantly, and due to us maintaing about a million soldiers in NATO. Actually most probably the EU axis will be turned in case of Turkey joining... it will hurt first but its neccasary.

## Ohh yes , anybody knows that USA controls u completely . And dont mumble a thing about the Iraq war. It was all a sharade from ur part to get more money from them..Well this time , they didnt needeed u that nuch and they didnt pay...It had nothing at all to do with ur fake denial of the war..This is why also there are no sympathizers , now... It will take some million dollars for the sympathizers to appear again..And as for the joke to turn the axis of EU , try first to have an economy ....For the moment u owe all Turks , plus ur next generation..and maybe , even that is not enough to repay ur debts. ##

This is your view. And mine is that I wouldn't like to join the EU at all, I've lived in England/Kent and France/Central-South most part of my life, and I wouldn't like my people to join as it will cause degradation of turkish culture and beliefs.

## So , why bother at all ?? ##

And why be in a union where countries are directly responsable for deaths of over 35 K turkish citizens? (it hasnt even been 15 years). For Turkey the EU will last only until people see what the real EU is about.. and thats it.. its a strategical mistake on the turkish behalf..

## I dont know what u r talking about , but i will take ur word for it..And for ur own good , i wish that u will be enlightened and see ur strategical mistake and u will stop doing it ..##

So I suppose you read before you vote.. take a look maybe you might not find anything to do with Turkey..

## Ohh , yes it has . This treaty is already dead ...So the treaty that is in force , is the treaty of Nice, And this treaty , clearly says for 25 members , or at least 27 , which means the 25 that are today , plus , in 2007 Bulgaria , and Rumania ...Turkey ?? Is not even mentioned...So , yes ..It has a lot to do with Turkey. ##
 
All Turkey needs is 10 years..

## Turtkey needed 10 years to achieve her goals and become a member IF all were well by then..Now , its 10 years more...##

as people aren't idiots apearing to want to be in EU is an economical bonus, and a strategical move, as it will force some countries to lay low with tools of terrorism.. after the economy is self dependant, and strong..and if growth rate of the population continues (we will be near the 100 mil mark)    Why the hell does Turkey need Europe for? to feed and protect EU pensioners?  hahahaha

## So actually by saying no to Turkey , we really helped u. Good . Does that mean we will have the chance to get rid of u ?? We will be more than happy ...For this , we may throw a couple of million Euros to show how happy we are.##

Isk..

Mr iskenderani

I am not sure you are suitable for this post.

As u have started with being civilised and gentle , i will answer to u accordingly .

My dear friend.

Firstly what I saw is, It is Greece and cyprus who blackmailing us with EU.So help us with your tiny vote power. I dont realy care much about EU.

## U have to understand some things . Cyprus has in favor all the UN resolutions since August of 1974 ..She has in her favor too , all the resolutions issued from the UN Organisation of Human Rights ...All she asks is that these resolutions to be applied to Turkey BEFORE Turkey tries to become a member of EU .... Do u think this as a blackmail ?? ##

The other think, What you said about the International Maritime Law is against the agrement we made with greece,Treaty of Lausanne signed in 1923. So I see, Greece is have not enough honour to apply treaty they signed.

## So IF you know so well the Treaty of Lausanne , be so kind and enlighten us with the article of the treaty , that clearly says : No country has the right to expand her territorial waters in 12 miles...
Greece has signed the Int. Mar. Law ..... Turkey NOT....Greece is threatened with war by Turkey if she expands their territorial waters in the IONIAN sea...On the other side Turkey even not signing the Int. Mar. Law , has expanded her territorial waters in 12 miles in the Black sea region...Breacking the Int. Law one more time..

So , i am waiting for this article ...##

iskenderani wrote: "All in all Turkey is a terroristic country inside as well as outside too..."

My friend I think you have Forgetfulness problem, so I will try to help you, As a good Turk.

All world accept Abdullah Ocalan as a bloody terrorist. And It was greeks who helped him much. So I think If we search for a terroristic country, we can find easily Greece as a terroristic country.

## I will try to refresh ur memory too...About Abd. Otc. USA and England ONLY considered him as a terrorist ...Russia , Greece , Italy , and most of Europe did NOT consider him as a terrorist..But at USA's request it was Greece who arrested him and took him to Kenya where exists the biggest military base of USA , in Africa , litterally handling him to Americans i.e to Turkey..##

I dont care about EU.

## How nice from u... Thank u ##

But pls my Greek friend dont lie people.

## First , be absolutely sure that U DONT LIE and then ask from the others to do the same..##

Isk..

The good thing is that u are NOT sure for my suitability...Good..Thank u for ur opinion...but i am sorry .

Until some one responsible for this forum and post decides differently , i will keep on posting , as it is my right ...

And it will be better for u if u keep ur personal opinions for ur fellow forumers to urself.

Isk..

It is entirely up to u if u will answer to my posts , or not. Sorry but i do not care for the excuses u present for ur decision . What we will see in the next years , we will see it then. For now we keep on what we know..

So u work with NATO as a strategist / officer ...So what ?? Up to now u have not presented here any analysis , backed up with hard evidence , to be discussed... U also are aware that NATO is a USA organisation , serving US interests ... Again , then.... So what ??

Isk..

So Seko , my number one jester.... Spain having Theuta in North African soil is considered an African nation ???

What a joke... what a jester..

Isk..

Isk. I see that your intentions of verbal abuse cannot be harnessed by your foul mouth. Keep trying! You need to do better. I know that petty name calling makes you feel good when all else fails. Now be a good student and try harder. I won't give up on you just yet.

Ceuta is in Africa. Turkey is in Europe. Any questions? Lets see if you can accept this correct answer. No twists, no lies, a simple yes or no would do.

Come on Isk. Do you seriously consider you could have an decent conversation with these people?

Just check one quote and you will understand perfectly with what people you are trying to discuss #Ceuta is in Africa. Turkey is in Europe#

The very next thing they will claim is 1+1=4!!

Once a jester , always a jester...Is Ceuta Spanish ? or not ? IF she is a part of Spain , then what do we have Seko ?? A big land mass of a nation in Europe , and a small persentage in Africa...., But the Nation is considerent European , not African correct ??

The contrary is with u ....Turkey's large lamd mass is in Asia , and a small pecentage in Europe...This makes u an Asiatic country ...

Got it ?? Nice...Any other joke from u ??

Isk..

From Seko , mainly , i can expect even that ... He is great in inventig whatever joke to excuse the unexcusable..

But its not only Seko , here appeared another "star"....the "Observer"...Laughing will increase...I love it particularly when he finishes shouting "peace" , while in all the post he wrote he talks about war..Lovely.

Isk..

Baracuda says:

Let me state to you the meaning of the word Turkish straits as you seem so eager with it, it means "Strait of the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmora and the Bosphorus" But I was talking about other treaties like this one on the 'islands' and their coverage..

## Look , u r entitled to fight with Seko , in who is the greatest jester , but dont mix me in that.

Read what the treatie says :

2. SPECIAL PROVISIONS.
ARTICLE 23.

The High Contracting Parties are agreed to recognise and declare the principle of freedom of transit and of navigation, by sea and by air, in time of peace as in time of war, in the strait of the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmora and the Bosphorus, as prescribed in the separate Convention signed this day, regarding the regime of the Straits. This Convention will have the same force and effect in so far as the present High Contracting Parties are concerned as if it formed part of the present Treaty.

Do u see ANY MENTION OF TURKISH straits ??? So shall we call this Violation No 1 ??

U know very well that by renaming the straits u are puting under question the whole treaty... But , buddy , dont count on this ...##

http://www.hri.org/docs/lausanne/part1.html - http://www.hri.org/docs/lausanne/part1.html

## Now for the treaties and the articles that u write above . With them as i understand u acuse Greece for militarising certain Islands , violating the treaty ... is this correct ?? ( Right, so the treaty is above.. clearly stating that we are not violating side of anything.. on the contrary, your country is, and sea, and land, and military contingency, and flight paths...    dream on..  )
Ok, lets see then what is ur part in it..and lets start from article 14.
-ARTICLE 14.

The islands of Imbros and Tenedos, remaining under Turkish sovereignty, shall enjoy a special administrative organisation composed of local elements and furnishing every guarantee for the native non-Moslem population in so far as concerns local administration and the protection of persons and property. The maintenance of order will be assured therein by a police force recruited from amongst the local population by the local administration above provided for and placed under its orders.

The agreements which have been, or may be, concluded between Greece and Turkey relating to the exchange of the Greek and Turkish populations will not be applied to the inhabitants of the islands of Imbros and Tenedos.

Well what is the status of the Greek population in Imbos and Tenedos ?? Do they have this "special administrative organisation" ?? Have ur country provided EVERY guarantee to protect these Non-Muslim population ?? Violation No 2

But lets go on..

-ARTICLE 39.

Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities will enjoy the same civil and political rights as Moslems.

U can read the rest of urself...So where are the Greek minorities of Konstantinopolis ?? and where are the remains of the Greek minority in Smyrnae ( after the massacre of 1922 ) ?? I will tell u were they are . They were FORCED out of Turkey in 1955 and 1964. So , this is violation No 3...

And after these terroristic violations of ur signature , as a country , u have the nerve to acuse us because we have militarised our territory ??? WE HAD to do it ...

But...it is typical for your country NOT to honor her signature...As for the Int. Mar. Law , it will be good to read it , although ur country have not signed it.As for the Aerospace laws u keep on violating them too , resulting in some cases that ur pilots , exercise in swimming into the Aegean...As for the Greek islands , as u have accepted their status , u have also printed ur maps accordingly...
 
please post a link, as I have no clue on what you are talking about.. if this is the 8mil$ from the Iraki war, then you must also know that it wasnt used, and was liquidated by the bush administration.

## Ok..Although economy is not something i am keen on it ( i just use it as information ) , i will try to find a link. ##

Yes, but that isnt the problem if EU doesn't use any NATO bases, equipment, personel and funding.. If NATO is to be dismantled then it should be done accordingly.. Although uniting military forces in EU in essence will lower costs of upkeep of individual forces per country.. and perhaps joint research/development.. I am not certain in the unity of EU for such an endevour.

## Agreed. This was exactly what i meant . NATO has no reason to exist , other to pursue USA interests in Europe and the underbelly of Russia. So , it is not in the interest of EU. IF and WHEN EU decides that she will have to act as a Union , then she will HAVE to have her own army , controlled by her alone. And i am sure that they will consider the cost accordibgly . After all EU has the economical power and the technology to sustain an army. What she doesnt have up to NOW , is the WILL to have it. And IF Turkey joins as a member , she will never have this will. About the field of research and development were u r correct , this problem may be solved easily with a military treatie with Russia.##

Belarus.. well I agree with you.. thats funny.. but Turkey no I dont agree.. and no not only because Im turkish.. here are some numbers for you..

Currently (2005 estimate);

   Russia Male's Fit for military service = 21 Million
   Turkey Male's Fit for military service = 19 Million
   
   Russia Number of active troops : 980,900
   Turkey Number of active troops : 679,734

here's a link for you with figures that differ a bit but good enough..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of _ active_troops

## I do not doubt ur numbers....Which is even funny too. Russia with a population of almost 200 millions , have almost equal army personnel with Turkey of 50 millions. Kind of strange , but i believe that it is due to the different organisation of each army ##
 
Well, Russia is more dependant on the US and other places than the EU..actually its EU's rival take a look at some facts.. maybe you'll learn a few things..

## Of course she is.But if u take the time and look at a map , then u will see what i mean. Russia needs EU , even only as a route of her merchandises. The sea routes from Vladivostok , Baltic sea , and the North Sea , are very difficult routes specialy in winter , which means 6 months. Her geography , dictates her needs.

Thanks for the links , although as i already said economy is not my main interest. What i did see is the following :

Exports $162.5 billion (2004 est.)
Main partners Germany 8.4%, Italy 6.2%, China 5.8%, Ukraine 5.7%, Belarus 5.7%, Netherlands 5.6%, Switzerland 5%, US 4.6% (2003)
Imports $92.91 billion (2004 est.)
Main Partners Germany 15.4%, Belarus 7.7%, China 7.4%, Ukraine 6.6%, Italy 4.9%, US 4.6%, France 4.5%, Kazakhstan 4.1%, Finland 4.1% (2003)

80% of Russia's exports are mainly to Europe , the rest 20% is with China and USA...
70% of Russia's imports are from Europe , the rest 30% is with China , USA and Kazakhstan..

All in all it seems that Russia has more conomic ties with Europe and this is quite understandable , for many reasons.##

## Thanks for the links about terrorism . What is comming out of them , is that these countries are SUFFERING from terrorists and NOT harboring terrorists , or acting as terrorist countries. This is what Turkey does , threatening with war Greece , and occupying illegaly a part of a country , member of EU and UN. ##

Quote:
## I will try to refresh ur memory too...About Abd. Otc. USA and England ONLY considered him as a terrorist ...Russia , Greece , Italy , and most of Europe did NOT consider him as a terrorist..But at USA's request it was Greece who arrested him and took him to Kenya where exists the biggest military base of USA , in Africa , litterally handling him to Americans i.e to Turkey..##
 
 

Nice twisting of facts.. greece arrested him and took him to Kenya..   

Here are some BBC news reports for your information, on what really happened..

## Twist of facts ??? Lets see from ur links ...facts.

-The two women and another female bodyguard with a Belgian passport were removed from the Greek diplomatic compound in Nairobi, Kenya, in an operation personally led by the secretary-general of the Greek Foreign Service.-
-Robert Fox, an expert on diplomatic affairs, says it would be highly unlikely for Washington not to have known about Mr Ocalan's refuge, as one of the CIA's main stations is in Nairobi.

I think those 2 paragraph's are enough...
One other thing.
The arresting and hadling to Turkey AB.OT. has angered all Greeks .The explanation is easy . Greece has practically invented "filoxenia" .They even had a god for it "Xenios Zeus"...this means that a starnger seeking refuge into ur land was , and is considered a kind of special person. It was considered to be a great sin in killing , robbing or doing any harm to a visitor , or a person passing by. On the other hand , the orthodox church , if someone seeks refuge in a monastery , is obliged by her dogma as a religion of love , to harbor and give sanctuary , even to Hitler himself , or Stalin , or even a non-christian..even a Turk , or for that matter a Kurd.
I do not expect u , or any Turk to understand what i say .Either way , it is our traditions and we respect them.This is why Greeks were angered with their politicians in this case. ##

Yes I know, I prefer it to the EU, although at its infancy, it does have potential.. for the greeks and for us.

## Well the Bl.Sea For. will have to prove its existence, in the future ...we will see..##
 
No, I am not meaning standard treties, agrements. These are more sensitive in nature.

## If the Russian treaties are more sensitive or not , this is ur estimation and it remains to be seen too. ##
 
I meant russian firms in the ME and russian deals on arab oil (like you put it.)

## Yes , but u have to keep in mind that by now USA is controlling almost 80% of the Arab oil and with the "peacefull" revolutions in Georgia and Kirgistan , they establish a control , on all the underbelly of Russia , extending their influece almost into China.Which means they are boxing Russia again , as it was in the times of cold war. ##

Quote:
## Ohh yes , anybody knows that USA controls u completely . And dont mumble a thing about the Iraq war. It was all a sharade from ur part to get more money from them..Well this time , they didnt needeed u that nuch and they didnt pay...It had nothing at all to do with ur fake denial of the war..This is why also there are no sympathizers , now... It will take some million dollars for the sympathizers to appear again..And as for the joke to turn the axis of EU , try first to have an economy ....For the moment u owe all Turks , plus ur next generation..and maybe , even that is not enough to repay ur debts. ##
 
this is a big laugh.. cut the medication its getting to your head..

## I let my quote as it was , and ur answer too....If this is , or will be a big laugh remains to be seen in the next bargain with USA , for the base of Insirlik. Dont be so in a rush to make estimations...Ohhh and i am not yet , on medication.This is why i dont buy ur peopaganda. ##

In essence yes.. with saying no EU is forcing Turkey to take other paths.

## Perfect... I wish u all the best to those new paths of urs..##

Isk..

Isk

http://www.turkishembassy.org/governmentpolitics/issuesaegean.htm#waters - http://www.turkishembassy.org/governmentpolitics/issuesaegea n.htm#waters

Anyone who want to curious about Turkey claims about Aegan can learn it form here.

But I am realy thinking about half of the greece have a problem in their mind. When ever I enter a post, A Greek comes and show how he hate Turkey and Turks.

I dont think no one asked you if Turkey is a terorist state or not? I dont understand you greeks enemity agains the Turkey. When ever a Greek saw a Turk, he began to blame him or his politics. I dont understand why greeks are so agresive.This is politics. This is the a debate between to Country, Not two people. But You greeks love to make it war between Turks and Greeks. And This is a post for fun. But I am sure isk... You are destroying people's fun. I dont understand your aim.

What is your aim Isk...? When blameing Turkey and Turks, what is your aim?

I am realy thinking, You(Greeks) want a war. Because of your agresiveness(Hate) is realy not a good way to peace. I am not against much war, It is a side of human being. But please dont make your stupid war in posts.

Hello Komnenos..

Just a few corrections , on ur random thoughts on the question where Turkey belongs to ; Asia or Europe.

## They came, settled and changed their way of live from a nomadic people, and took over the existing socio-economic structure of both an agricultural and an urban European society, assimilated with the existing population, expanded further into Europe…….##

The key word here is "assimilation". U see Komnenos , Turks never assimilated with any of the conquered societies.If Germans considered themselves the Aryan Nation , the pure blooded Nation of Europe and Christianity , Turks were the same , for the Islamic nations.
Tanner Aksam , a Turkish scholar , who is banned from his country , because he is against its propaganda , explains it very well in the following 2 paragraphs.

## Another factor which created an image of hostile Christians was the role Islam played in this connection. On the basis of Islamic culture and its system of laws, the Moslems have always considered the Christians as an inferior minority group and have never viewed them as being equal to themselves. Thus the Christians did not enjoy equality in the Ottoman Empire. But during the stages marking the disintegration of the Empire, the reforms and economic privileges led to a change in the position of the Christians. The Turks gradually lost their social status as a superior class. They could not reconcile themselves to the idea of equality with the Christians by way of reforms, or that a Christian minority should attain a better economic position than they. This loss of status led to the rise of hate-revenge sentiments against those who were seen as responsible. The Moslems did not "peacefully" accept their steadily weakening position. This awareness of loss of status played a significant role in the enactment of the massacre against Christians, and the history of the nineteenth century provides much evidence for this.

Two essential factors are responsible for the difficulty of the Turks in coping with this sentiment of collapse and worthlessness. First, there was the deeply rooted belief in the superiority of the Turks over other peoples and the right of Turks to dominate them. There is still talk today of erecting a world empire and of dominating other nations as signposts of Turkish superiority and historical uniqueness. The most important reason for this attitude lies in the fact that the Turks, as a ruling stratum, (even though they themselves were not conscious of their Turkishness), and under the influence of Islamic thought, identified themselves with Islam and felt superior to the empire's other religious groups. The idea of the " ruling nation" (Millet-I Hakime) dominated the thinking of the Ottoman-Turkish ruling elite. At the same time, the Ottoman-Turkish ruling elite was overwhelmed by the greatness of its own past. There was really an enormous gap between the sense of belonging to an empire that ruled over three continents and the current situation, in which national honor was being dragged through the mud. The conflict between these past and present realities intensified the need to 1) reject the present, 2) return to the old days of imperial glory, and 3) punish those who were accused of being responsible for the current malaise. ##

U see , Komnenos , i have often asked our Turks co-forumers , who claim that they inherrited the civilizations they conquered , to tell us what they have inherrited from the Greek civilisation. I asked them to produce any paper discussing Aristoteles , or Plato , or any greek philosopher...U know the result...a perfect circle..zero.And this is expected . Turks have introduced the word "reaya" which was used by them for all the conquered populatios. Reaya meant that these populations , regardless of religion , belonged to a level just above the level of the flocks of sheep they had.A Turk had the right to kill a "reaya" and not be procecuted...If there was a dispute between a Turk and a reaya ..it would always be solved by a Turk judge..And guess who was justified each time..

So Komnenos...there was no assimilation.And because there was no assimilation of either cultures or humans whatever secularism was done in Turkey was just on secondary issues. Turkey was never able to establish a Democracy as a political system . Even today that the goverment they have is considered more "democratic" ( for their tastes ) , any voice against goverment policy is supressed and procecuted...and even jailed.

Another "correction" is on what u say : ## Turkey is also,part of European cultural traditions ## .Can u define these traditions ?? Can u define what is the "cultural" tradition ?? If u mean certain songs or dishes of food , then sorry , but i cant even imagine that Europe will risk her future because of baklava

Another and last "correction" is on the subject of religion.Either we like it or not religion still plays an important role to a lot of people and to politics too. Albania and Bosnia , are not totally Islamic , and Europe has already a good number of Islamic population , Arabs mainly. But an Islamic country of 70 millions and a 100 millions , of tottaly unassimilated population , with a huge differemce in culture and values , in a few years , is definitely NOT what Europe , needs , or wants.Another proof that the Turks do not mix with the rest of the people where they are , is the ghettoes that they create around them , in all European countries.

And sorry for the "corrections"...

Isk..

 "A Turk had the right to kill a "reaya" and not be procecuted"

lol this one is mad.

Hehehehe..

How poor a duo .... dont even know what their ancestors were...

As usual ....jokes

Isk.

Below is an answer form Isk to a simple question. Notice how longwinded and skewed it is! He will have another chance at the bottom of this post to come up with the correct answer.

Wrong Answer!!!

Now you will have another chance at finding the correct answer. So be patient. My question to you wasn't multiple choice nor in essay form. Only a Yes or No response is possible. In fact, the answer was already in the question. Not to hard to figure. The answer you give will have an impact on all of your future arguements, if anyone is to take you seriously.

In order to clarify this topic (and any other participation from you) then we need to set up a basic rule of engagement as evident by rules of logic. Once a premise is agreed upon can we then pursue the details of this and other arguements. As you know Aeolus mokingly thinks that 1+1=4. We all know that that is false. Now onto the question below! Good luck.

___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___

Is Ceuta in Africa?   Yes  or  No  

Is Turkey in Europe?   Yes  or  No

___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___   ___

To clear any further confusion, the example for this quiz came from you. And half of the question you already answered. So if you swallow your pride and choose the correct answer to the second question then you have proven that you are fit for logical arguements. If you don't answer correctly then you know what we all should think. 

iskenderani

So you know my history better than me.

Can you tell me why ottoman empire is lost  almost all war against to russia? I would be very happy for your help.

My number one jester...Seko...

Have u ever thought that a so naive trick , will have me fall in ?? If u ever thought , even for a moment , this way ..... then ur place is in a park , with kids between 3-5 , and not in AE.

Before answering ur question , lets clarify some things ....What is Ceuta ?? A city , an area , a mountain , a river , or what ....and to whom belongs this Ceuta ?? Italy perhaps ?? France ?? Norway ??

When u feel up to clarify the properties of Ceuta ...Then i will answer ur question...( the answer is already given , but u seem in no position to understand it .... so , after ur explanations ...i will answer again..)

Remember Seko :

1) What is Ceuta ??

2) To whom belongs Ceuta ??

Good luck..

Isk..

No it hasnt .... So what this has to do with Turkey in EU ??

Isk..

well

so what your hatred for turks has to do with Turkey in EU?

Arent you greece citizen? Choose your leader wisely. But dont become pain in our ass. Use your veto or whatever. I am sure Greece is more important than Turkey. So yes or no, Noone asked you what he did in past and I am sure , If someone want to learn Turkish history, they prefer to ask it a Turk.How old are you? I meet to greek boy who is 14-15, and they are talking like you. Maybe your education system is a little weird. What do you learn in history class? Real History or dramas?

Yeah, really mad. This sentence shows his ignorance. Reaya was consisted of all ruled society, Turks, Armenians, Rums etc. In fact, in the late Ottoman period with Tanzimat and Islahat, The reaya was mostly consisted of Turks while the ruling class was consisted of non-Turkish people, mostly Armenians and Rums.

But I wish there was a right for a Turk to kill a rebelious non-Turkish member of reaya. So we could have a cleaner society...

Hmm, how nice. I see we have a real moderate amongst us. I can recall of some others who manifested the need for a "clean society". They did not end up well!

ISk you failed the test and have proven your irrationality by your illogical conclusions. (Your doctors note for being late to class is not accepted.)

You see this question, and everything else, as being a joke. But the joke has been on you every time you decieve and avoid. What I presented to you is for a way to create a basic premise to build our arguements on. Since you failed to accepted the challenge and call it a naive trick then all we are left to assume is that you are illogical or that you chickened out.  

Yiannis what about isk? I want to hear your comments about him too.

He blamed all nation with lies. And I am sure you know he is lying. what is your comment? Or your comments are just for turks?

guys i think u lost the point

its not  a geografic question , its a political question

I hope Exarhus , that u dont take seriously , Seko and his childish games..After all he likes to joke  , being a natural jester..

Hiw trick is to say "something"...whatever this maybe , even the most ridiculous , or extreme  opinion... He and his fellows follow exactly what their propaganda says .... "try to write something ... even if its a complete b.s , some of it will remain..." .Does this ring a bell ?? i will give u a hint....Josef Gebels.

So , what was his little game here ??

Is Ceuta in Africa ? the obvious answer is Yes...Is Turkey in Europe ? again the obvious answer is yes ....and the triuphant conclusion of Seko : Therefore Turkey is a European country....complete b.s

What he tried to avoid , by writing whatever excuse he could think of is the real issue.

Ceuta is in Africa > Ceuta is Spanish teritorry > Spain is an African country , which is completely false as we all know that Spain is a European country ...and its greater portion of land mass is in Europe..

Exactly the same goes for Turkey..

East Thrace is in Europe > East Thrace is Turkish territory > Turkey is a European country , which of course is also completely false , as we all know that the greater portion of Turkish land mass is in Asia Minor , making therefore  Turkey an Asiatic country.

All the other "bravado" from Seko's part was just air-bubbles...

Isk..

Isk..

No Ionian , its a combined question . Of course Seko tried ....but failed again .

Isk..

And because some people dont know their own .....lets see what others have to say :

###  Wherever one looks below the surface of Ottoman life one encounters an extraordinary picture of richness and diversity as well as the misery and brutality that also existed. To try to generalize about Ottoman life when one is writing of 600 years and a vast and varied area is hazardous in the extreme. In one way the Ottoman empire was a model of religious toleration, a state in which people could enjoy their own religion. On the other hand, non-Muslims were undoubtedly second-class citizens, subject to persistent discrimination and occasional popular attacks. ###

From MSN Encarta..

Isk..

Ah this one wont stop.

My little friend Isk.

You are free to express your opinion. But you are not free to tell  lies about to Turks. Oh but I am sure You dont care about Turks. And I am sure you said 1423121 "you dont hate Turks". We have a word, "Ayinesi iþtir kiþinin  lafa bakýlmaz" means basiclly, What you said is not show who you are, But what you did shows who you are. So you hate from Turks.

"This is obviously NOT of ur business..."

why ? I dont ever think history of Turk is your  business. But It looks like this wont stop you  my little friend.

We will ....IF we have to...This is our business...not urs..

If you become a pain this is completly our business. Use your veto, Not your lie-lover mouth.

Sorry again...u r wrong. History is a series of FACTS ...nobody has to ask anybody . All can read and see what happened .There are only few mysteries in History...So i dont have to ask U for Turkey's history , because u will try to sell me the propaganda of ur country ...I prefer to read History from serious organizations like the UN..or EU

It looks like you didnt prefer to read history from UN or EU. By The way, This two organization is not related with history, But politics. know difference?

Really ?? So it seems boys in Greece are very mature .... as i am old enough to be maybe ur grandfather...IF u are 14-15 urself , like ur "friends"..

lol so nothing changed at greek side. Your grandfathers and childs are same. It looks like you teached your lies to your children. Shame on you! And no you dont look veryyy mature. In fact all of greeks who post here is more mature then you.

Drama's belong to philology .....History belongs to historians .If u dont know the difference by now , it seems that ur educational system is a lot weird.So , be at ease....dont worry ..we learn History..

So you think you learn history. You dont even aware what you learned.

You have none relation with  antic Greeks , but just a silly greek.You cannot improve any culture like your ancestors improved. You are  a disgrace to your ancestors.