Little Turkey in the middle of Europe
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Current Affairs
Forum Discription: Debates on topical, current World politics
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3617
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 07:35
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Topic: Little Turkey in the middle of Europe
Posted By: baracuda
Subject: Little Turkey in the middle of Europe
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 07:03
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Many countries in europe finance / support ideologies / and assist in obtaining and distribution and training the use of military equipment, for groups and peoples that they sypathize with.. this is common case and considered civilized to do so.. anyway...
Well instead of financing terrorists or some people that accept themselves as something other than that they are.. causing destruction,fear and unstability in the area.. it would be interesting to finance the turks and give them a new ideology to join-up and construct a new country in europe breaking off from the countries they are in.. 
Since by population they are situated in germany,france, netherlands.. it would be a nice location a bit of france, a bit off germany, belgium.. ) which area would you think would be more suitable ?
I really don't want this to be a political post..but instead to show a nice strategical argument that I have been having with my brother..against similar situations in my country (Turkey) as throughout history it has repeatedly been chopped up through financing of such groups by the west or the russians ..... interesting what people's reactions would be to it as its strategically pretty radical...
Anyway, just interested... has anyone thought of it before? what do you think? (I know its pretty fantastic and most probably not feasable.. but still interested in arguments of people.. )
Why, how? look below for some facts..
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Replies:
Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 07:21
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I doubt they have enough money to buy villas and properties in the rich and valuable area of France. If they want their commiesblock cities to split for independance, I'm gladly for, those area are poor, have a high crime rate, woman can be burned alive with alcohol if they refuse to wear a veil (it happened). Let's put bordeline and leave them in quarantine. ------------- Vae victis! |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 10:04
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Breaking up countires for the sake of minorities sounds rediculous. If I ran any of those european countries I would not give land for the sake of pacifying or granting lands to an isolated ethnic population. Each country should, and most do, allow all ethnic minorities to become citizens of the country they live in. All you need is to meet the necessary legal requirements. ------------- |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 10:13
What are you talking on about? did you read what I wrote at all?
I couldn't agree more but as one knows.. "Turkey,Iran,Syria - Kurds"," and after that it will be some other minority.. and so on..... and similarly in other countries of course, so why not do the same for europe?
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Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 10:16
Yes I did, it was about Turkish minorities taking control of an area in Europe. If you make stupid and meaningless threads like this, don't expect a smart answer. ------------- Vae victis! |
Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 10:25
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Ok, I'll make my point clearer. The Turkish minorities claim and independant country in Europe. But where? They live in poor commiesblock area. They'll never be able to claim Nice or Biarritz because there might be (not even sure) a couple of Turks there. There country will be poor, ugly and in chaos. It would be a huge commiesblock land, in the middle of nowhere and certainly without anything of interests or beautyfull around. The other european countries would certainly put borderlines around it to avoid problems. Which is why I say they'll be in quarantine. It's hard to follow a logical scenario since your sole idea of a mini Turkey in Europe is in essence plainly stupid. ------------- Vae victis! |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 13:57
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Could anybody explain to me in simple and clear language what the heck this is all about?
Thank you! ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 14:07
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I think the OP is confusing immigrant populations with national minorities. I don't think you can just move to another country and then claim you're a national minority. correct me if i'm wrong. |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 14:19
Where, well that was my question.. I don't know.. where.. they don't all live in the comunist blocks.. I for one have a house in St.Malo,and in the south of your country.. But most probable would be to the south or south of east of europe.
Yep agree with that also..
Its as stupid as any other minorities claims on other countries.. I said it at the begining also. But then again all the things you said are true for the middle east the present day, in asia also..but yet there are many supporters of such groups in many european countries its used as a tool for gain.. So it would be funny for the Turks, arabs, and other nations to start using ethnical groups for strategic and political gains also...
This is just about an idiotic idea of reversing the tables on politics and ethnic groups with EU countries..in a sense to show the idiotism behind it all, and of course what people think of such scenario's when its up their backyard.. will they be for, or agianst it..
Why not if you've lived there for a couple of generations ? |
Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 14:33
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Yeah, and your grandfather was also a pasha right? Not very
representative of the average Turks. Turks (who are a small minority in
France) are not a high class one. Far from this. ------------- Vae victis! |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 22:39
Yep and not only, my motherside is direct from an ottoman sultan meaning that we have papers on the ownership of land in greece,bulgaria,ex-yugoslavia,france so technically I can break havok in europe by just applying to get them back.. but there is no point.. maybe some places we shall see...
Here's another one for you soon I'll most probably be a french Marquis,as am buying a castle dirt cheap..dont understand why is property so cheap in france.. in istanbul to buy a house in a good place its well over a mil $
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Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 23:44
Yep,my fathers side is direct from Byzantine emperor meaning that we have papers of ownership is Turkey and thrace.. your papers would not do anything with current land and such....I guess its a good collectors thing though. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 00:14
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"strategos" papers aren't just from the ottoman period, they also include more modern times.. unlike the byzantine period
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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 03:13
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It assumes that Turks in Europe are always concentrated in certain
areas, which is not always the case, and ignores that many of them have
married locals (why would they want a seperate state?). In places where you do have high concentrations of Turks who keep to themselves, these are typicly poorer areas of the city, sometimes with higher unemployment. For those areas to break away would leave them functionaly disconected to the local economies upon which they depend, leaving them worse off economicly. In sort, the geography of Turks in Europe is not conductive to this sort of outcome. If on the other hand you had enire regions where Turks made up a significant poportion of most if not all economic niches, then you'd be in business. 5800 in the UK seems very low. Hmm, most Turks in the UK are Cypriots, and generaly arn't counted seperatly on the national level (usualy only local councils bother), so could it be that this figure is only for Turks who have moved from Turkey? Also there are roughly 300-350 thousand Turks in the Netherlands according to most recent Dutch statistics figures, but that tends to include people who are only half Turkish too (one parent born abroad makes you a forigner and you are labeled by the country that parent comes from on the census). So i guess i'm asking is what data is being used here? Hmm, maybe its citizenship, most Brit-Cypriot Turks are fully British citizens, and many Dutch ones are too. -------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 03:26
Or it could mean that they can move to a location which would be more strategically correct for them, means of gain in economics and political.. This is just the case with groups in nothern irak, syria, south of iran and east of turkey.. in some places.
I know the figures are not exactly accurate, just figures from 1996, to put into perspective the amount of population in europe.. (p.s. a single parent is enough.. if I wanted to count amount of relatives of people in turkey with ties accross the area. .you would be pretty suprised to see the results of such a population)
Anyway its just based on many assumtions and variables like you say, but in terms of strategy and defense its interesting
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Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 03:40
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Just for arguments sake, I'll take this idea serious, even if it isn't:
Has actually anybody asked the Turkish immigrants themselves if the want to swap the security of relatively decent and stable economic and social systems of Western Europe for the adventure of an own state? Or has anybody asked the many Turks that have become smoothly integrated into the societies of Western Europe and take a very active part in their political and cultural life, if they would like to live in an exclusively Turkish society? Or has anybody asked the many Turks, who do not want to root themselves in Western Europe but only regard their stay as temporary? However, to equal the situation of Turkish immigrants into Western Europe with the situation of Ethnic minorities in Turkey is, historical, social, cultural and political nonsense, and somebody alledgedly interested in history should know better. ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 04:45
We could just behead her, that's how we deal with "blue blood". ------------- Vae victis! |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 10:37
"Exarchus" actually.. bulgaria is not in europe but they've accepted to pay rent.. (as lands consitute to half of Sofia..)
There has never been any thought into it, nor has there been any type of activity, or any lobbying to do so... I really don't know what might happen.. Security of turks in Europe, that must be relative to who's looking in to it.. as I recall germany..a few years back.. Stability can easily be obtained by clearing out the creases of some islamic 'activists' that europe fails to surrender.. Temporary turks.. well if you bring a land that is turkish to them.. 'state' then I would think they would stay
" Minorities in a country call themselves minorities only because of another nations politics. " - remmember these words as a golden rule examples with Turkey ; 1. Ottoman empire period (x - 1923), War with Russia, and russians to divert the Ottoman forces in Europe to the East and cause havok.. started politics in sort of sympathizing with the armenians, and telling them that they are not free they are a minority, and they deserve better (in essence brainwashing in modern sense with various forms as simple people believe what they are told and don't question that much on its rightness) and also of course that they would support them against the Ottoman monster.. made agreements with them, provided weapons and finance.. But when the Ottomans turned on them the Russians faded away.. Which all resulted in the excecution of the heads and members of gangs that killed and ramsacked whole villages in the area's,(under treason against their own country in time of war) and the total exile of these people into an area that they wouldnt cause any more trouble.. These people were not a minority at all, in fact they considered themselves as turks of armenian origin, they lived in harmony mainly were in the high rich society, including places of command, control of treasury and advizories of the Emperor. Due to others of their origin they all suffered the consequences of another countries politics.. 2) Modern day Turkey, Turkish Republic (1923- xx) Turkish recovery from the fall of the empire, and for the turks never to regain a strenght many fantasies have been played out.. with minorities.. Latest is the Kurds so let me start with them. 1. Kurds like the armenians before them up till the past decade never considered themselves as anything other than turkish, they didnt even look at themselves as a minority at all, they lived in harmony like all other people in eastern and in west locations of Turkey, they are poor kurds and very rich ones also.. so take the general.., I think it was in the '80's when began politics of some European countries,(France,Italy,England I know for sure the rest don't know) they financed openly and supplied arms to various groups or families of people who could believe their politics in the East and Central Turkey.. so these people considering themselves formed an ideological army which was supposed to fight the Enemy, Turks (not differentiating between origin) but this interested other nations that also wanted to use them in some sense for support of their ideologies.. A powerfull Turkey is somehow not in the interest of other nations, so the arabs joined in by looking the other way, the greeks joined in by providing education of equipment and tactics to these people... Now, this is how to support a group then really f.. it up, this 'army' began terrorizing eastern Turkey, planting bombs, blowing up soldiers in garnisons, blowing up innocent people, killing any civilian in villages around that area.. This led to the instability of the area such that people in the area began to be afraid of each other.. would my neigbor be a terrorist? Then as things go on.. terrorist began using villagers for supplies.. what can a villager do if someone comes up to you with an automatic rifle and says give me food or I'll rape your daughter,wife.. and kill you all.. nothing.. but the turkish army didnt really consider these things (and this is the only mistakes they made..) they took in these villagers for providing support to terrorists.. and locked them up.. These actions caused the escalation of hatred in the area against the army, and the so called Kurdish National Army gained more supporters... The turkish army, declared war, and condition red in these regions.. and after a loss of 30 000 civilians and about 5000 or so troops to these 'Kurds' the army won.. Countries that hid the leader of this so called PKK- army was jogged him around.. causing mass rejection of trade with these countries at that time.. for they financed the death of over 35000 turkish civilians.. SO in the end.. now the same dilemma.. The kurds consider themselves a minority and Turks of different origins look at them as potential terrorists.. Now the latest news, is the re-placing and bringing in kurdish voters in irak to gain majority for an autonomous state in nothern irak, where technically they shouldn't be the absolute majority.. as saddam killed them off.. so.. you see the state was formed after all.. Turkish military head, declared that the formation of kurdistan in the area is reason of war, that was 2-4 years ago I think. Now the Americans joined in the party with the Jews, and they're providing the weapons and finance so that the kurds can kill of the turkmens, and the arabs in the area.. and again in Turkey we can hear exploding of bombs... So history repeated itself and only a century later.. 2.The next probable turkish people of different origin to become a minority is most probably Pontus-Rum, they're in the nothern central coast of turkey, they are a funny, good and nice people, with a medium income-levels ... I would have said the greeks, but our relations with them are growing well and thats good.. we shall see.. Another probabilty is in the south where there are a mixture of arabic origin turks.. maybe they can be financed
You see such things are just politics, and result in nothing but destruction and death of innocents.. yes its great to work for your countries beliefs and nationalizm, and pretend to be peacefull and democratic.. and keep your dirty hands in someone elses back garden... but such things lead to war. And in war everybody looses.. Want to hear another minority? the late Arafat's own words.. " We are paying for the crimes we committed against the ottomans.. " they sold us out to the english.. now the place where they were the majority has become Isreal and they are the minority....
Another advice, Don't believe anything I tell you here, look it all up... but with this method of looking.... let's say a war in a period.. 1. look at recitements of both sides of the conflict of the time. 2. look at 3rd countries reports news at the time. 3. look at history that has been writen of the event a time later by another x country thats not biased.. 4. then take the middle and similarities to be true.. throw the rest away..
SO now.. you see why not make the turks or any other variable European of different origin into a minority? and do similar things as the EU or the UN does in the middle east ? I dont need to look at history to see that reality is bendable to fit the situation.. |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 10:57
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I hear the trumpets of Germinal! ------------- |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:06
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:52
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These are quick links.. on Hellenic Assistance to the Kurds.. and involment.. take a look at all of the BBC one's then the 2. one but ignore it if you like only look at the references and media parts.. the third one.. is simialr to the BBC.. but from a kurd site..
1.BBC news.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/287232.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/287232.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/286849.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/286849.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/280817.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/280817.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/281322.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/281322.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/281815.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/281815.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/358115.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/358115.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/280690.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/280690.stm 2. This is a turkish source, so my advice would be to check the reference newspapers and source it gives you http://www.atmg.org/GrecoPKK.html - http://www.atmg.org/GrecoPKK.html 3. This I believe is a kurdish source.. but it talks only on the capture of the leader of PKK.. might be some other greek references apart from that.. http://www.kurdistanica.com/english/politics/analysis/analysis-105.html - http://www.kurdistanica.com/english/politics/analysis/analys is-105.html |
Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 13:07
Last time I've checked on a map, Bulgaria is in Europe. ------------- Vae victis! |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 13:17
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I meant EU
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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 13:58
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------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 14:00
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------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 14:07
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------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 15:22
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"spartakus" - Why 3 posts? no-one is blaming the greece or the greeks for anything, someone asked for reference and I put links to it from the BBC.. no need for panic you don't need to defend anything ( BTW the second link wasnt working fixed it now.) And cutting the news like that makes it seem something other than what the british media said.. so here it is for the interested..
first BBC link...
second BBC link...
BBC links 3 it about the capture, 4 pretty straight forward.. with the Cypriot Passport, the connection of some politicians, resignitions, and defining it stain on modern greece by some Pasok MP.. BBC link 5
BBC link 6
ok.. he might have been presured, but I doubt it, as I remember seing a picture of a greek officer in uniform teaching these people.. I'll post it if I can find it on the internet. BBC Link 7..
Well this is what the Kenyan's said... on sincerity and trustworthiness. the number 2. link is a more turkish approach to it, although the news is said to be from 'the Observer' the archives of the observer online go back to 98.. so I cant comment on the validity.. but here are some of the references it makes, they are from the hellenic resources network.. 94-U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT Patterns of Global Terrorism: http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/94/euro.html - http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/94/euro.html U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE 1996 APRIL: PATTERNS OF GLOBAL TERRORISM, 1995 http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/95/europe.html#Greece - http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/95/europe.html#Greece actaully go here.. and look through them all ... http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/ - http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/ read the 'introduction', 'Greece' and Turkey parts if you like.. Anyway I hope this is enough to show envolvement.. (p.s. those reports might also show involment of other european countries) |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 00:07
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Oh God here too.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 05:49
 ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: AyKurt
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 08:34
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Im an ethnic Turk in Europe. Born and bred in Eorupe. If
there was a "Little Turkey" created in the EU what incentive would i
have to move there? Also another question i have is what reason would there be to establish such a state? I would think it would only weaken our influence in Europe as we would be concentrated in one part rather than spread throughout the EU. How would it be of a benefit to Turkish Europeans to have such a state? I would rather see more organisation among European Turks than the creation of a state. It seems Turks here arent organised in a clear and progressive way. We should focus on being a part of Europe than being seperate from it. ------------- Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 09:35
Gain.. well desruption of european 'rest' and totality in the area.. and possibly the EU, as such a muslim state could be very influential, as it would be impossible for the EU to even touch such a state due to the support it would get from the muslim world.. As for your thoughts on organization I cant agree more, this post is to show some poeple whats really going on here in the middle east as some of them don't realize what their own countries are doing.... so this is just an example.. |
Posted By: AyKurt
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 14:49
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I dont think the "muslim world" would be as supportive as u think, and
why would this hypothetical state want such support based on
religion? History shows that perhaps as far as Turks are
concerned our musilm "brothers" arent as so supportive. Anyway i
wouldnt want to live in a religious state. Also i still dont think a Turkish state would be as influencial as you might think. Remember when Jorg Haiders Freedom party became part of the government in Austria. The EU can just ignore such a state and it would be powerless. The only obvious way such a state would be influential would be if there was economic reasons. If alot of Turkish businesses based themselves there. But you dont need a state to do that as any location can be used to create a Turkish business centre. Wouldnt Turks be more influential if they had such centres in a number of EU countries rather than in one state? Im glad you agree with me about organisation. How do you think Turks in the EU and Turks generally could be better organised? ------------- Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 15:20
That's a sure way to ask for trouble. Of course it depends on what type of organization you're talking about, but an ethnic minority "getting organized" is a sure thing to increase xenophobia and/or racism - people generally don't like such states in the state. If you want to be politically engaged, devote yourself to the state instead, try to make it better for everyone instead of a select few. As said, I have no idea what kind of organization you're talking about, so I might wrong. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 16:01
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Alevis in Germany are very organised, though some people in Turkey aren;t very happy with that from what i've heard.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 16:07
Well I know, I know.. but then again they just might.. as they could benefit from this state in some way.... I know that its less than 90 years back they sold us out to the highest bidder.. but who knows times change, they know what the word 'turk' means when it comes to war.
You see I can tell that you are a turk from these sentences haha
Yes, they can.. but think of it this way.. if the state has connection with outside of EU, grows economically to be a giant technological or financial center, then EU would be forced to notice the state for moneysake
Centers well.. you see there is a little problem with that of control, defence (in a sense that they are dependent of limitations and laws fair or unfair forced upon them, including different laws which pulsate as political parties change.. so It would be much better to have a state..
It wont help.. you see it comes from the saying " If a tree falls down in the middle of a forest with no one to hear, falls silently" - I think the greeks actually need the turks to some degree to keep the attention on themselves, and they do what they do best, they talk... there are more believers of some X story in EU than there is anywhere... and these stories are not fiction to them but fact and reality. Even when their own history dis-proves them, they just shrug and continue on to some other theme.. (history as in arhives,treaties...)Its very sad. These all have to be changed, either using their own arhives and series of politics, to put it to their heads that we wont let them play with toys any more... or through a series of very harsh strategic planning making intentions known.. Organizing to do something.. mmm Well, I dont know if thats possible.. its just not in the nature of a 'turk'.. we don't go to extremes, we dont whine, and we just dont stand up for ourselves until there is a war.. I mean.. organize.. ok.. it would be more of a club.. get together place than something else
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Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 16:10
I think he means something of the sort of lobbying that goes on in EU through sypathesizers, and greeks, and armenians, and so on.... in terms of politics and to be standing up all as one against dirty politics, claims, and racism.. |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 16:13
I dont think its because of the Alevi's, I would think that its because of their agenda's being vague or off to what they really are... (and not only alevi's there are some muslims organizations which I personally see as a threat to EU) |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 16:43
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IIRC, the Alevis first got organised when someone attacked some Alevi
conference in Turkey, the Turkish government wanted to arrest that
person but he fled to Germany. Germany offered asylum to this person,
but the Alevis got organised to opose this. I can't renember the final outcome, but the result is that they now use Germany as a base to influence politics in Turkey, which Turkey is unhappy with, but the Turkish government already does this in Germany, and it isn't the German government that is organising the Alevis but themselves. There are a few muslim orgainsations, the one with the most inflated sense of self importance is that European Arab leauge, relativly few of the North Africans voted for their political party in Belgium AFAIK, but they act like they are the most important mouth piece. Politicly muslims in Europe work together with the existing parties, some conservative muslims find perfect allies with communist parties, in Belgium there is (or was) a conservative religious family values party, made up of christians, muslims and jews, and in the Netherlands they alot vote for labour and many for Green Left from what i gather (judging by Turkish people i knew there, but they tended to be general more liberal than the Moroccans). It makes more sense this way, as they can get more influence, and work towards their ideological bent, as opposed to trying to form a generic tribal party that has to try and force a wide spectrum of political beliefs under one banner, which doesn't always work to well. Anyways, Alevis are wierd and intresting at the same time. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 17:32
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"Cywr" you know Im actually interested what will happen later.. there are so many such organizations and support for radicallist groups in and outside the EU that it will eventually be the headache of all EU countries..if it already isnt.
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Posted By: AyKurt
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 18:30
Well of course i think you may be a bit paranoid lol. Im not sure what type of "organising" your thinking about that would create such a reaction but i can assure you that my idea of getting organised will not instigate any trouble .In fact i agree that any political engagement should involve the state in general, im actually a member of a political party, but i would also want to be involved with a cultural and social organisation related to my ethnic origin that would have within its scope activity that may be considered political. I see no contradiction in this. ------------- Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
Posted By: AyKurt
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 18:48
maybe
lol is it so obvious 
To have connections outside the EU it would have to have agreements with EU nations it would border for the transportation of goods, movement of people etc
By creating such centres and supporting other Turks with finances and resources we would influence any laws forced upon us mre favourably. Dont forget the EU is primarily an Economic entity, therefore regardless of what political party is in power money talks .
"from the withered tree a flower blooms"
I think this would be best countered by Turkey and a strong organised Turkish community in Europe. Its all about what side of the mountain ur looking at. Turks are responsible for showing things from our perspective, whats sad is that we are too quiet.
Club, organisation, whatever how would be best to go about it and what would fall within its scope? ------------- Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
Posted By: AyKurt
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 18:55
All i know is that some so called nationalists the Grey Wolves attacked an Alevi conference in a hotel killing a number of Alevis. Bastards. Apparently because they are not Sunni, it seems like the nationalists are becoming more wahabi like. The Alevi folk traditions still retain many pre islamic customs as well as shamanic rituals, they are an important part of the Turkish heritage and identity. If they are better organised then good on them as they will be better placed to preserve and revive the Turkish identity than many of the so called patriots. ------------- Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 01:19
First of all people/groups with other agendas have to be brought together, alevis arent maniacs nor are the nationalists, nor the muslims... the problem is that there are activists with agendas in all of these groups financed by some people.. there has to be some other X group which they all should respect and be in.. as in essence a turk understands better the difference between black and white (right and wrong) Thats why I said there would be creases that need to be ironed out, people re-taught our culture and why we are turks. We are not inferior in anyway to any country or people's of any race we are and were superior both in strenght of adaptibility and in culture thats why we were feared througout the ages.. ex. Seljuks started out with a few men and with a dream of good pastures and ended with a population of thousands, art and a culture.. people respect us for many things.. but the only one's that are heard are the whinings...there has to be politics to swamp them out.. In a sense that we all have to stand against those that use us for their gain, they have to be shown through media, through walks, that we are "watching" I think culture is the turning point in such things, farther we go from our own culture and beliefs, we loose ourselves.. so a mass of various peacefull cultural organization is the starting point of such organizations.. In fact there are more things that should be done by the Turkish governments first to make the grounds for such movements('s due to other turkic countries as their population is in similar rape of de-culturization via religion..... to media) ( What angers me is the 'nationalists', they are anything but turkish nationalists.. they are exactly the same as some of the religious groups (as in fact they showed it politically.. they're using nationalism as a shield to lure people to their policy) |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 02:54
Thats nationalists throughout the ages, which why they are sometimes called populists. Appeal to some romantic notion of the nation to win people over, and then spoon fed them your policies. Never trust nationalists in politics, simple. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 13:02
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 14:10
I know your nation and people and not only from being to Greece many times, but also from periods before me have many friends, who were from ex yugoslavia from a period much before mine when times weren't so hostile, my great grandfather helped and gained respect of so many people that they still pay their respects and call even though they're ortodox or catholic. Actually the only problem I would ever have with your nation is the 'extremists', and 'politians' thats about 25% I would say.. And I belive that would be the same for my nation, with about 20-30% for you.. I didn't want to annoy or anything, but greeks are much better talkers than turks thats a fact..and your talks don't fall on deaf ears.. somethings get lost in politics and beliefs unfortunately.. and some of those I have mentioned in my first post here.. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 07:39
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You do not know Hellas,because if you did,you would not say such things.Hellas does not need the Turks to keep any kind of attention,they need their friendship as well as the friedship of all Balkanic states.Be caferull when you post,generalizations are not good.It does not matter whether you want to annoy or not.what it really matters is your posts.You can tell Hellen nationalists,yes,,but not generalizations again. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 10:08
| "spartakus" whatever, lets open a post on "foreign politics of Greece" someother place, and try to find out what I mean....it will be interesting for you if obejctivity is kept, there isn't any point in argueing it here.. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 12:59
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You do not have to ask objectivity from me.Open whatever topic you want,but next time just state WHO are those Hellens that want Turks for their attention etc. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 31-May-2005 at 07:01
I'm not paranoid: people generally are though
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Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 31-May-2005 at 12:27
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The attackers were not Grey Wolves, they were radical Islamists. There is not any connection between Turkish nationalism and vahabis like Islam. Where do you get that kind of informations? |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 00:42
Konu hakkinda pek bilgim yok, ama miliyetci parti ve milliyetci kesim, muslimanligi asiri derece kullaniyor.. neyin ne milliyetcisi olduklari belli degil.. Turk mu, yoksa turkum demeye calisan bir avuc hic mi.. zira turkum demekle dinlerin hic bir alakasi yok.. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 06:20
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English please or else PM. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 09:52
Here's the translation for you.."spartakus" Im feeling generous today
"I dont know much about the subject but the nationalist party and people (as in turkey), are using islam too much.. so I dont really understand of whats their nationalistism is about, is it 'Turks' or are they just a handfull of nobodies that try to call themselves 'Turk's. because saying that you're a Turk, has absolutely nothing to do with religion.." |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 12:07
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That's better... ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 13:06
Katılıyorum (I agree)... ------------- |