Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Discription: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32707
Printed Date: 23-Apr-2024 at 16:33
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty
Posted By: Ruslan
Subject: Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 06:32
|
i'm ethnically Manchurian,Manchurian Qing Empire is not a part of Chinese history,but Mongolian history. the name of the first Khan of Qing Empire,Nurhaci,the name came from a Mongolian word,means“destroyer”. his title "Sure Beile" and "Kundulen Han" are both Mongolian. "Aisingoiro" means "golden surname" in Mongolian language. the ancestor of Nurhaci is a Mongolian Darughachi named "Möngke Temür",literally means "Eternal Iron" in the Mongolian language. the name of Qing Empire came for the Mongolian word "Daichin",which means "warrior",in Chinese read as "Daiqing(代清)" or "Daqing(大清)", Qing Empire ,literally means "warrior empire". we are not the descendant of Jurchens, Jurchens were slaughtered by the Mongols in 13th century,we are Mongols Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty which ruled China. |
Replies:
Posted By: Ruslan
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 06:49
Manchu Empire, a Mongolian dynasty which ruled China. |
Posted By: Ruslan
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 06:52
Yuan Empire, a Mongolian dynasty which ruled China. |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 08:03
|
Perhaps the Mongols slaughtered the majority of the Jurchen and absorbed the survivors, like the Saxons did with the Britons?
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2012 at 08:30
|
Funny, I wonder if you're really Manchurian? Manchus will never say it's a Mongolian dynasty and most Mongolians will never say it's their dynasty either, you remind of this Vietnamese guy I had argument with, only he claimed it was Mongolian and I have a feeling you could be him but yes as always you're right that the Manchus were not Chinese but they were Tungustic people. Portrait of emperor Qilong  ------------- |
Posted By: heyamigos
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2012 at 07:43
|
Some of the original banner tribes that formed the Manchus were pure or mixed Mongols such as the "Yeha Nara" (the tribe that the Empress Cixi was born from). Aisinjioro is Jurchen. The name "golden" is just a continuation of their ancestors (Jin, Jurchen Tunguz tribe). Some Evenk Tunguz tribes today in Siberia still carry this gold (Nanai) as a tribal name. In actuality, Manchus core first was mostly Jurchen Jin and then later absorbed Mongols and some Chinese/Koreans after they conquered Liaoning. Culturally before they crossed the Great Wall, they were highly Sinicized and adopted similar court customs as the Ming Chinese and Koryo Koreans. Some of the Qing Manchu conquests were not just entirely the work of Manchus. For example, invasion of Xinjiang (East Turkestan), the Manchus were fighting Oirat Mongols and Kazakhs, while the Chinese foot soldiers were used to conquer the Uygur Turkic oasis/town people.
|
Posted By: Ruslan
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2013 at 21:29
| Chinese claim "Qing is a Chinese dynasty" just because they wanna claim "Manchuria, Tibet, Xinjiang were part of China" for political purpose. However in history,Qing was not a Chinese dynasty,but a Manchu-Mongol regime which ruled over China,Tibet and eastern Turkestan |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2013 at 22:35
|
A very interesting subject you have brought us to discuss, Ruslan, and one viewable in a number of ways. Yes it is well known how China tries to convince the world certain things are Chinese, when sometimes they are either not, or are able to be brought into the Chinese arena. Genghis Khan being a point in fact. In the case of the Qing dynasty, you have the lands of inner Manchuria being in China, and a kind of assimilation of a great deal of its population, which has happened a number of times, with Mongol and Han peoples. Was the Qing dynasty founded by the Chinese? No. But do the Chinese have a claim by saying a large part of the territory is Chinese now, and a substantial number of the people have Chinese ancestors? I guess it depends how you look at things. ------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 15:09
|
Considering that the Qing adopted Chinese language, customs, and civil adminstrative practices for the purpose of ruling China, and that their right to do was was based upon the right of conquest, I'd say that all the Qing lands now belong to China by that same right. I.e., they took over en empire, and eventually that empire took over them. Mongolia is a bit different in that after Ghengiz, different Mongol hordes ruled different parts. Had Manchukuo survived World War II intact, history might see a different Manchuria, but whose present boundaries would be subject what it had lost to Russia, China, and modern Mongolia. You can't can't base modern claims on some semi-mythical past, however nice the map may look. ------------- Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì |
Posted By: Ruslan
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 20:10
historian Benedetto Croce has a famous quote:”All history is contemporary history.” today a part of Manchuria belong to China,that's correct. however if Qing was China,then how Chinese gonna define those people who fought against the Manchu-Mongol invaders like Zheng Chenggong? were they heroes or traitors? if Qing was China,then they are definitely traitors because they fought against a "Chinese Dynasty",however today Chinese still define Zheng Chenggong as a NATIONAL HERO :) |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 20:42
------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Ruslan
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 21:16
today's official Chinese language is Mandarin, Chinese people call it “胡语” or "金鞑虏语",which means "foreign language". Mandarin is a mixture of Manchurian,Mongolian and northern Chinese language. the real Chinese language is similar to Cantonese,very different as Mandarin. most of Manchu customs originated from Mongols,including script,costumes and traditional sports such as Buku(wrestling). Mongol costume  Manchu costume  Chinese costume  |
Posted By: Ruslan
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 21:24
they were obviously Chinese national heroes,because they tried to defend China from a foreign country. untill 1912 while Chinese were struggling to gain their independance from the Manchus,"驅逐韃虜,恢復中華."(Expel the northern barbarian,revive China) was their slogan. |
Posted By: baydlag
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 02:39
|
Qing empire was Manchu Empire not a Mongolian or Chinese Empire. Manchus allied with eastern Mongolians against Mongolian great king Ligden because of Ligden's increasing power and his plan to control all eastern small tribes. Khorchin and Dahuri later Chahar men were Qing's one of core power in the time but Oirats and Khalkha were not welcomed to Manchus. Present day Mongolian and Chinese costumes both Manchu Costume. Manchus pushed the Mongolians and Chinese use their costumes and hair style. |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2014 at 21:12
|
Ruslan: I don't know if you're pursuing some nationalistic goal with this post, but there are some pretty glaring errors.
You say,"today's official Chinese language is Mandarin, Chinese people call it “胡语” or "金鞑虏语",which means "foreign language". Mandarin is a mixture of Manchurian, Mongolian and northern Chinese language. the real Chinese language is similar to Cantonese,very different as Mandarin. most of Manchu customs originated from Mongols, including script, costumes and traditional sports such as Buku(wrestling)." But history shows that Ogedei Khan was the first Mongol leader to embrace Chinese language and culture. It was he who took on the Chinese dress, education and the first script (Chinese), in fact he had an advisor who was Chinese and from whom he adopted the customs. He was the first Mongol to build a Mongol city, Karakorum, modelled on Chinese cities that he'd seen. References Amitai-Preiss, Reuven. 1998. The Mamluk-Ilkhanid War. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521462266. Chambers, James. 1979. The Devil's Horsemen: The Mongol Invasion of Europe. New York: Atheneum. ISBN 9780689109423. Hildinger, Eric. 1997. Warriors of the Steppe: A Military History of Central Asia, 500 B.C.E. to A.D. 1700. New York: Sarpedon. ISBN 9781885119438. Morgan, David. 1986. The Mongols. New York: Blackwell. ISBN 9780631135562. Nicolle, David. 1998. The Mongol Warlords. London: Brockhampton Press. ISBN 9781860194078. Reagan, Geoffry. 1992. The Guinness Book of Decisive Battles. New York: Canopy Books. ISBN 9781558594319. Saunders, John Joseph. 1971. The History of the Mongol Conquests. New York: Barnes and Noble. ISBN 9780389044512. Sicker, Martin. 2000. The Islamic World in Ascendancy: From the Arab Conquests to the Siege of Vienna. Westport, CT: Praeger Publishers. ISBN 9780313001116. Soucek, Svatopluk. 2000. A History of Inner Asia. New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521651691. ------------- |
Posted By: guo
Date Posted: 27-Mar-2014 at 23:05
|
it is interesting that ,i can see 'manchu' here. i am a 'hanzu' on my idcard. but,my grandma,she is manchu. and my face more like a manchu. i will tell u that , qing and manchu is not mongol. i dont know why you western gays always say 'mangol mangol' but you kwnow, the mangol lives in china,and the mangols had a dynasty in china ,that was only 70 years. but the mangols were a part of china like a Colonial ,that is how many years ////// more than 1000years manchu is a part of china. the manchus had a dynasty in china twice ,once only a littel times,and second more than 300years. \ we speak chinese .live like a chinese . because the manchus know if you want to live in china,you must speak chines live like a chinese, even manchus always thought manchus are chinese. whats the chinese. speak chinese and live like a chinese,that is a chinese. it s funny that,you western always say 'mangol mangol' the mangol only knows kill kill kill |
Posted By: guo
Date Posted: 27-Mar-2014 at 23:10
|
why manchus had a 300years dynasty in chian more than 300years. but the mongol only 70 and i will tell you mongol is a part of chinese / there have more than 6m chinese mongols live in china
|
Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2014 at 10:47
|
I assume Guo wanted to write "you western guys" instead of " you western gays".
PS: Welcome to AE, Guo.
 |
Posted By: honeybee
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2014 at 22:01
| http://auctionimg2.kongfz.cc/20121125/1807762/18077627jTd80_n.jpg |
Posted By: honeybee
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2014 at 22:04
| Anyone who thinks Mandarin is not a Sinitic language is a moron who has no knowledge of basic linguistics. The sentence structure is SVO, not SOV typical of Altaic languages, and it shares over 99% cognate with southern Chinese dialects. Only a handful of words in Mandarin has Manchu origin. |
Posted By: honeybee
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2014 at 22:12
| And where did Ruslan get the idea that Mandarin means Hu yu from? Mandarin is commonly known as Putonghua (common language), Guoyu (national language), or Guanhua (literally language of the mandarin), never Hu hua (foreign language). Mandarin might have been more different than middle Chinese, but that's naturally because Beijing was the political center of China for the past 7 centuries. This goes with any language where the least changes in any language always remain in the peripheral region where activities are limited. Khalkh Mongolian also adopts lots of Russian and English vocab, whereas Ordos Mongolian is closer to original Mongolian in both vocab and pronunciation. It doesn't mean Khalkh Mongolian is a foreign language. Study some linguistics before making a stupid comment like that. |
Posted By: Steppe
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2014 at 01:48
|
The Mongols don't consider that the Qing was a Mongolian dynasty. Qing Dynasty is Mongolian ? not Chinese? http://historum.com/general-history/40981-qing-dynasty-mongolian-not-chinese.html |
Posted By: kemes
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2015 at 14:44
I can verify that Ruslan is a liar and neither Mongol nor Manchu. Ruslan is a name used by Russians, and is not a Mongol or Manchu name. "Aisin Gioro" does not mean anything in Mongolian. In Mongolian, "Altan" means gold. "Aisin" only means gold in Manchu. Gioro does not mean anything in Mongolian at all. "Gioro" originated from a place name where the Aisin Gioro clan originated. "Hala" means surname in Manchu. Nurhaci's original name in Manchu is actually Nurgaci, similar to his brother's name Surgaci, Yarhaci, and Murhaci, it is written as Nurhaci because of the naming taboo for Emperors. "Beile" is a Manchu title, not a Mongolian title. Koreans and Vietnamese Emperors used to write their names in Chinese characters and used Chinese script to write their languages. Does that mean they are Chinese? So does non-Mongols using Mongol names and script mean they are Mongol? The Manchu originated from the Jianzhou Jurchen confederation in Jilin. They were sedentary farmers and not pastoral nomads like Mongols.
Another humongous lie. I'm starting to think that you aren't Manchu or Mongol at all, but someone who is trying to make Manchus and Mongols look stupid by impersonating them. Chinese call Mandarin as 官話 guanhua which means "the speech of officials", and Mandarin was spoken since the Ming dynasty before the Qing ever existed. Standard Mandarin is called Putonghua 普通話 (common language). Mandarin is a clearly Sinitic language related to Cantonese and sounds nothing like Mongolian or Manchu. Mandarin: 123456789 yi er san si wu liu qi ba jiu shi Cantonese: yat yih sam sei ng luk chat bat gau sap mandarin: ni hao, wo shi guangdong ren 你好、我是廣東人 cantonese: nei ho, ngoh si gwong dung yan. 你好、我係廣東人 Now repeat that in Mongol and Manchu and see if they sound anything remotely similar to each other as Cantonese and Mandarin do to each other. |
Posted By: kemes
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2015 at 14:54
Wrong, its westerners who deliberately try to confuse terminology to make it look as though Chinese say Genghis Khan is an ethnic Chinese. China NEVER said Genghis Khan is a Han Chinsese http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%BC%A2%E4%BA%BA - 漢人. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%BC%A2%E4%BA%BA - - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%BC%A2%E4%BA%BA - 漢人 ONLY refers to ethnic Chinese, not any other ethnicity. 中國人 Zhongguo ren (an inhabitant of the Middle Kingdom) is translated by China as "Chinese, while http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%BC%A2%E4%BA%BA - 漢人 (Han people) is translated by China as "Han". 中國人 refers to ANY ethnic group living within the Middle Kingdom 中國 (China). It has no ethnic connotations at all. Like British does not refer to a specific ethnicity, it can mean English, Scottish, OR Welsh. On the other hand, westerners like to obfuscate and translate both 中國人 and http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%BC%A2%E4%BA%BA - 漢人 as "Chinese" , and make no difference. When the Mongols established the Yuan dynasty in China, they declared that the Yuan dynasty was China (中國) Zhongguo, Middle Kingdom, and called their own state 中國. https://web.archive.org/web/20140325231543/https://webspace.utexas.edu/hl4958/perspectives/Zhao%20-%20reinventing%20china.pdf A Mongol official whose words are recorded in the Yuan shi (History of Yuan), even boasted about how powerful "China" 中國 was compared to Japan, clearly referring to the Yuan dynasty as China. ［元史］ 列傳第二十七 鐵木兒塔識 鐵木兒塔識曰：「刺探在敵國固有之，今六合一家，何以刺探為？設果有之，正可令睹中國之盛，歸告其主，使知向化。」 ［History of Yuan］ 鐵木兒塔識 (son of Toqto'a): "Such action of spying on your enemy state is no double expected, but since the world is now a united family, why would they even do such thing? Even if they are really spying on us, let them be. They will see how great China 中國 is and report it to their king and let him obey (us)." The Yuan dynasty Mongols identified their state as 中國. This is why the Yuan emperors are referred to as Mongols who are citizens of China in Inner Mongolia are referred to as 中國人 (Middle Kingdom people). |
Posted By: Babyboby
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2016 at 19:46
| If the manchurians can claim the Ming Palace as theirs then why can't China claim the Qing dynasty as part of Chinese history? Nevertheless, Qing dynasty has nothing to be proud of because the Chinese history has many great civilizations such as the Tang dynasty. Even manchurians never admit themselves as part of China there is nothing to lose. |
Posted By: Babyboby
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2016 at 20:02
| The reason why Chinese dislike manchurians because the Han people were forced to adapt the Qing culture and many Chinese were slaughtered defending their Han culture. The Chinese had been wearing Hanfu for 3000 years whereas Qipao only about 360 years in China. |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2016 at 22:27
|
Nothing new here...forced assimilation of an alien culture was the norm for this era. The west did it vis a vie the opium wars for trade purposes. Missionaries intent good or bad did the same...nothing new. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: bolat
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2016 at 02:03
small halkhasets still want to appropriate Manchurian history?
|
Posted By: bolat
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2016 at 02:06
| halkha-mongols descendants Munchurian |
Posted By: bolat
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2016 at 02:12
|
kemes
I don't know who he is such, but Ruslan not the Russian name Raslan from the Turkic word Arslan, on Turkic "lion" |
Posted By: bolat
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2016 at 02:13
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2016 at 09:08
|
When the Mongols or Qing conquered China and established a dynasty, it became part of Chinese history. Mongols are Mongols, Qing are Manchus, Hans are Chinese - but all three together are East Asians. |