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Greatest Buddhist and Hindu Dynasties of India?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the South Asian subcontinent
Forum Discription: The Indian sub-continent and South Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31826
Printed Date: 09-Jun-2024 at 11:31
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Topic: Greatest Buddhist and Hindu Dynasties of India?
Posted By: Master1
Subject: Greatest Buddhist and Hindu Dynasties of India?
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2012 at 13:35
There were several great Buddhist, Hindu and Jain Dynasties in Indian history.
But which was the greatest in terms of cultural achievements or military success.

Magadha Dynasty: 6th - 4th century BC

Maurya Empire: 4th - 2nd century BC

Satavahana Dynasty: 230 BC - 3rd century

Kushan Empire: 2nd century

Gupta Empire: 4th - 6th century

Rashtrakuta Empire: 8th - 10th century

Pratihara Dynasty: 8th - 11th century

Pala Dynasty: 8th - 12th century

Western Chalukya Empire: 10th - 12th century

Chola Empire: 9th - 13th century

Vijayanagara Empire: 14th - 16th century

Maratha Empire: 17th - 19th century 





Replies:
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2012 at 20:14
The Mahrattas were pretty badass. They controlled most of south India and restored Hindu rule until they were defeated by the East India Co

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2012 at 19:03
History of the Mahrattas:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wLURAAAAYAAJ&dq=mahratta&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q&f=false%20 - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wLURAAAAYAAJ&dq=mahratta&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: oxydracae
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2012 at 07:29
Mahratta Empire was defeated badly by the Afghan Empire in 1761 at the third battle of Panipat. By the time East India Co arrived Mahratta Empire was like a loose confederation with very little co-ordination among the States.


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2012 at 19:37
What about Maurya emperor Ashoka who conquered Pakistan and Afghanistan in the name of Buddhism during the second century BC?

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: oxydracae
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2012 at 03:44
Actually as per some new researchs Mauryans were originally from modern Afghanistan. They started their empire from modern Pakistan and then started expanding eastwards. As per many resources (like Megasthenes) it was the first Mauryan Emperor Chandragupta (Greek: Sandrocottus), who established his suzerainity over the entire Sub-Continent.
Asoka is bit over-rated. As far as Buddhism is concerned he did a lot, but when it comes to the military expeditions, Battle of Kalinga was the only one that he carried out.


Posted By: Master1
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2012 at 14:40
This is very doubtful. At first Chandragupta defeated the Nanda Dynasty and established
the Maurya empire in Eastern India and then he started the conquests of Northwestern India.


Posted By: Master1
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2012 at 15:07
In terms of military achievements the Maratha Dynasty was one of the greatest in Indian history.
Their military successes against the Mughals and the Portuguese were incredible.


Posted By: oxydracae
Date Posted: 18-Jun-2012 at 02:40

Originally posted by Master1

This is very doubtful. At first Chandragupta defeated the Nanda Dynasty and established

the Maurya empire in Eastern India and then he started the conquests of Northwestern India.

in 321 BC: After the death of Taxiles (Alexander's Governor) in Taxila, with the help of King Porus, Chandragupta (or Sandrocottus) established his empire in modern Punjab (in North Pakistan).


in 320 BC: Chandragupta defeated Magadhan Empire under Nanda Dynasty and established himself as an Emperor of Magadha.


in 316 BC: Chandragupta captured modern Sindh (in South Pakistan) from Greek Governor Peithon.


in 305 BC: Chandragupta defeated Seleucus and got Arachosia and Paropamisadae (modern Southern and eastern Afghanistan).


Chandragupta's conquest in South India is highly doubtful.



Posted By: Master1
Date Posted: 18-Jun-2012 at 12:03
Originally posted by oxydracae

Originally posted by Master1

This is very doubtful. At first Chandragupta defeated the Nanda Dynasty and established

the Maurya empire in Eastern India and then he started the conquests of Northwestern India.

in 321 BC: After the death of Taxiles (Alexander's Governor) in Taxila, with the help of King Porus, Chandragupta (or Sandrocottus) established his empire in modern Punjab (in North Pakistan).


in 320 BC: Chandragupta defeated Magadhan Empire under Nanda Dynasty and established himself as an Emperor of Magadha.


in 316 BC: Chandragupta captured modern Sindh (in South Pakistan) from Greek Governor Peithon.


in 305 BC: Chandragupta defeated Seleucus and got Arachosia and Paropamisadae (modern Southern and eastern Afghanistan).


Chandragupta's conquest in South India is highly doubtful.

In 321 BC he conquered the Nanda Dynasty in North East India
then in 317 BC and 316 BC he defeated the Greek rulers of the Punjab and started
to reconquer the territories of North Western India. By the way the Punjab was ruled by
the Greek ruler Eudemus until 316 BC.


Posted By: Master1
Date Posted: 18-Jun-2012 at 12:15
Even in the records of Seleucus it is stated that Chandragupta ruled east from the Indus river
until the battle between Chandragupta and Seleucus in 305 BC


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2012 at 19:30
Does the "greatest Buddhist dynasty" include the Buddha himself? He was a prince before his quest for enlightenment, as was his son Rahula

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Master1
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2012 at 17:25
Originally posted by Nick1986

Does the "greatest Buddhist dynasty" include the Buddha himself? He was a prince before his quest for enlightenment, as was his son Rahula
Buddha had a son?


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2012 at 18:05
Yup. As Nick alludes to... Siddhartha Gautama did indeed have a son named Rahula.
Now whether you attribute that as a fact after he became the 'Buddha' is up to you. There will always be those of the aesthetic, purist or fanatic vein who will say that no.... as the Buddha he had no children. But I am not aware he ever denied his existence...perhaps with his transformation and new found convictions he felt that his calling was now above 'earthly' concerns to include familial association... tho it appears he was in contact with them. I can not adequately address that. Nor offer an opinion.
 
 
''At the age of 29, Siddhartha came to realize that he could not be happy living as he had been. He had discovered suffering, and wanted more than anything to discover how one might overcome suffering. After kissing his sleeping wife and newborn son Rahula goodbye, he snuck out of the palace with his squire Chandara and his favorite horse Kanthaka. He gave away his rich clothing, cut his long hair, and gave the horse to Chandara and told him to return to the palace. He studied for a while with two famous gurus of the day, but found their practices lacking.''
 
 
  http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/siddhartha.html - http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/siddhartha.html


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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2012 at 19:47
Buddha's son also became a monk: an inheritance his father saw as more precious than material wealth or kingship

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: oxydracae
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2012 at 06:13
Originally posted by Nick1986

Does the "greatest Buddhist dynasty" include the Buddha himself? He was a prince before his quest for enlightenment, as was his son Rahula
He was the prince of small tribal Republic, which was later absorbed by Kosala Mahajanapada. Then which 'Great Buddhist Dynasty' are we talking about ? 


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2012 at 08:56
Originally posted by oxydracae

He was the prince of small tribal Republic,  



Would you explain why an Urban society with metallurgical, literary, religious , cultural and philosophical sophistication is reduced to the status of a "Tribe"?????

The Mahajanapadas  were advanced Iron age states.

They were not tribes.

To quote Steve Muhlberge,

Long ago Jayaswal rightly protested against the use of these terms: "The evidence does not warrant our calling [republics] 'clans.' Indian republics of the seventh [sic] and sixth centuries B.C...had long passed the tribal stage of society. They were states, Ganas and Samghas, though many of them likely had a national or tribal basis, as every state, ancient or modern, must necessarily have."  He was equally correct when he pointed out that "Every state in ancient Rome and Greece was 'tribal' in the last analysis, but no constitutional historian would think of calling the republics of Rome and Greece mere tribal organizations." 

Yet the phrases "clan-" and "tribal-republic" are still routinely used today in the Indian context, and it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that they are being used perjoratively. In both common and scholarly usage, to label a people's institutions or culture as tribal is to dismiss them from serious consideration. "Tribespeople" are historical dead-ends, and their suppression or absorption by more advanced cultures (usually those ruled by centralizing governments) is taken for granted.The terminology of even Indian historians demonstrates the survival of an ancient but inappropriate prejudice in the general evaluation of Indian republicanism.

Once that prejudice is overcome, Indian republicanism gains a strong claim on the attention of historians, especially those with an interest in comparative or world history.

It is especially remarkable that, during the near-millenium between 500 B.C. and 400 A.D., we find republics almost anywhere in India that our sources allow us to examine society in any detail. Unless those sources, not least our Greek sources, are extremely deceptive, the republics of India were very likely more extensive and populous than the poleis of the Greeks. One cannot help wondering how in many other parts of Eurasia republican and democratic states may have co-existed with the royal dynasties that are a staple of both ancient and modern chronology and conceptualization. This may well be an unanswerable question, but so far no one has even tried to investigate it. If an investigation is made, we may discover things that are as surprising to us as the republics of India originally were.





Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2012 at 19:54
Originally posted by oxydracae

Originally posted by Nick1986

Does the "greatest Buddhist dynasty" include the Buddha himself? He was a prince before his quest for enlightenment, as was his son Rahula
He was the prince of small tribal Republic, which was later absorbed by Kosala Mahajanapada. Then which 'Great Buddhist Dynasty' are we talking about ? 

Greatness doesn't neccessarily have to be innovation, political reforms or military conquest. Buddha could have been a powerful warrior king like his father, but he gave it all up for the life of an ascetic


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2012 at 02:04
http://www.classicindiatours.com/image/ashok-pillar-vaishali.jpg

Ruins of Vaishali, capital of the Confederate Republic of  Videha, 600 BC -- 490 BC. It was a confederacy of 9 Republics who joined hands to fight Monarchies , especially Magadha.
The Pool, called Pushkarani, was a coronation tank for the ceremony.

A council of 7707 members who elected the president to Power.(BY Jain accounts).

Executive and Judiciary seperate

No Slavery. No segregation. A Buddhist society.

The Videhans almost wiped out Monarchy from North India. But Magadha defeated it in 491 BC, under Emperer Ajatashatru.

Ajatashatru had to invent the Schythed chariot , a catapult and  a covered http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot - chariot with swinging http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_%28club%29 - mace that has been compared to a Tank.  Ajatashatru defeated the 36 Republics around his kingdom after over a decade of Civili war. He attacked Vaishali with 5,70,000 troops.

The first war between Freedom and Monarchy was fought in India between 500 and 490 BC.Even after defeating the Republics, he had to permit them to have autonomy within his "Empire". The Republics survived until around 400 AD.

If Ajatashatru had lost, human political history would have been very different.




Oxydracae, Tribes dont built cities and maintain organized Armies and States..

I hope you have changed your mind, though I dont get a response.




Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2012 at 19:23
Those columns look Grecian, yet the civilisation existed over 300 years before Alexander. What were its origins?

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2012 at 23:20

The Particular column is an Ashoka Pillar built by Ashoka in around 300 BC. The ruins of other structures like the Pushkarani and the Ananda stupa (which perhaps contain Buddhas relics) are much older and built by the Videhans. They took control of the Buddhas relics after his death in 483 BC.

Ofcourse this does nor mean there were not columns before that.As I said, Republics maintained autonomy under their conquerors until they vanished in 400 AD.

There was a hundred pillared hall built before this particular pillar at Kumrahar, where the second Buddhist council was held.

The oldest columns in India are found in the bronze age city of Dholavira,(3000-1900 BC).

Corresponding to this,  the Vedas do talk of  Columns(4000--2000 BC being their era of composition)

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bji3558jvaCI/610x.jpg




Please tell me of the oldest columns in the middle east...


Posted By: oxydracae
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2012 at 10:02

Originally posted by SuryaVajra

Oxydracae, Tribes dont built cities and maintain organized Armies and States..

yupp, but I used the term "Tribal Republics" cause the basis of these Republics was laid down by Indo-Aryan tribes. And the word "Jana" in "Janapada" means 'tribal unit' and Earliest Buddhist Texts refer that these Janas or 'Tribal Unit' built cities and maintained armies.


Originally posted by Nick1986

Those columns look Grecian, yet the civilisation existed over 300 years before Alexander. What were its origins?

This column was built by Mauryan Emperor Ashoka, around 250 to 240 BC, 80 or 90 years after the death of Alexander, and no doubt Mauryan Columns were influenced from Persian and Greek Coulmns.
 
Originally posted by SuryaVajra

Please tell me of the oldest columns in the middle east...
I believe Göbekli Tepe built around 9500 BC ?


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2012 at 19:47
What would Buddha have thought of the veneration of his relics? He himself rejected the worship of deities as a distraction from the path to enlightenment

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2012 at 05:19
Originally posted by oxydracae


yupp, but I used the term "Tribal Republics" cause the basis of these Republics was laid down by Indo-Aryan tribes. And the word "Jana" in "Janapada" means 'tribal unit' and Earliest Buddhist Texts refer that these Janas or 'Tribal Unit' built cities and maintained armies.

and no doubt Mauryan Columns were influenced from Persian and Greek Coulmns.

The word Jana, by the time of the Janapadas atleast , meant simply "The people"

In all Indian languages today, the word means the Citizens or the people.


Yes, some scholars suggest the idea of an capital of an animal was adapted from the Persians. But you will not note that the Persian Columns had semi Mythical  or Mythical Capitals . Mauryans had only Lions.

But I cant find any predating Greek column that identifies with the polished circular Mauryan pillars. 


Originally posted by oxydracae



I believe Göbekli Tepe built around 9500 BC ?


That Turkish site was impressive but they are neolithic Megaliths, not pillars. Megaliths cannot be simply referred to as Columns. They are found all over the planet in all shapes and sizes.

The most famous megaliths are at the Stonehenge in UK.

India has a pretty large collection however

Dont quote me on the dates....I am still working on it. As far as my search went, it seems Turkey has the oldest--as you would say.


If you ask me, the first Proper Columns were built in  Bronze age cities of Egypt and India .
Egyptians were unrivaled in their expertise  . Indian Columns took time to blossom but it did blossom .


This one is in Pakistan.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zEnj6bHHuFk/Tv1qKn_2RvI/AAAAAAAAAIo/yi2faPdNYrE/s1600/A%2Bsection%2Bof%2BAsota%2BStone%2BCircle%252C%2BPakistan..jpg

An Example in India




Plenty more from where that came from

http://www.megalithindia.in/


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2012 at 19:26
Perhaps Gobekli Tepe's megaliths were actually the columns of wooden palaces and temples that have long-since rotted away?

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 02:35
Originally posted by Nick1986

Perhaps Gobekli Tepe's megaliths were actually the columns of wooden palaces and temples that have long-since rotted away?



That is a very painful thing to accept , considering the primitive nature of the Neolithic   man.

It is as disturbing as the possibility that there is a submerged civilization off the coast of Dwarka  and modern geologists insist that the western coast of India got submerged around 17,000 BC.

The Turkish site and the underwater Dwarka are two sites that can destroy our modern chronology of Civilization.

But some scholars agree with you , that the Turkish site is precocious . I took 10 minutes to swallow the dating of 9500 BC.

I know what some Cowards might say......


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4e2kb2Jc71qzeoj9o1_1280.jpg


Posted By: oxydracae
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 14:42
we can't compare Göbekli Tepe with underwater Dwarka, because the archaeology of Göbekli Tepe is well established whereas regarding underwater Dwarka there are many archaeological controversies, and some archaeologist even call it pseudo-archaeology.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 15:56
Explain us more about Dwarka?Smile


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 16:27
Originally posted by oxy drake

we can't compare Göbeklitepe with underwater Dwarka, because the archaeology of Göbeklitepe is well established whereas regarding underwater Dwarka there are many archaeological controversies, and some archaeologist even call it pseudo-archaeology.
 
 
Quite correct and thanks for pointing that out versus the norm which is feigned intellectual obfuscation learned movement by moment to merely substantiate a pet cause. And as far as I am concerned any future reference belongs in the thread dealing with the same that is already here. There is science and pseudo...you couple that with nationalistic or unwarranted scientific reductionism or theological hyperbole counter revisionist fervor and covert bigotry; that would attempt revisionism viz raw speculative not objective analysis. Your skating on no ice not thin.
 
Iow. Any theorem is welcome but until you bring forward mainstream opposition in an objective analysis....as much as that which would support...your losing. You don't spam on my watch with an attempt at unsubstantiated references or sources that are challenegable that belong elsewhere.
 
Period.
 
Don't like it.... leave.
 
 
 
Dispute my authority to control it and I will ban the offender for a Coc violation.
 
 
 
Period.


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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2012 at 20:13
Originally posted by SuryaVajra

Originally posted by Nick1986

Perhaps Gobekli Tepe's megaliths were actually the columns of wooden palaces and temples that have long-since rotted away?



That is a very painful thing to accept , considering the primitive nature of the Neolithic   man.

It is as disturbing as the possibility that there is a submerged civilization off the coast of Dwarka  and modern geologists insist that the western coast of India got submerged around 17,000 BC.

The Turkish site and the underwater Dwarka are two sites that can destroy our modern chronology of Civilization.

But some scholars agree with you , that the Turkish site is precocious . I took 10 minutes to swallow the dating of 9500 BC.

I know what some Cowards might say......


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4e2kb2Jc71qzeoj9o1_1280.jpg

Who says neolithic man was primitive? The Egyptians and Aztecs built their cities using only stone tools and only adopted iron and bronze when they came into contact with foreigners


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2012 at 08:16
Originally posted by Nick1986


Who says neolithic man was primitive? The Egyptians and Aztecs built their cities using only stone tools and only adopted iron and bronze when they came into contact with foreigners



I didn't disagree with you. I said I took time to accept it.


Originally posted by medenaywe

Explain us more about Dwarka?Smile


Sir,

Please watch this video . Its a five video series on Dwarka.  The city has been submerged 5 times in history, the first being right after the ice age.

Pre-harappan ancient city found part 1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVhgsLPUVu0

I would insist that you guys patiently watch the five videos for a full picture.

If you guys feel too lazy to watch them all, atleast watch Part 5. Its absolutely essential

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPLjnBetTZ0

Close to the coast, just a few feet below is the ruins of a medieval date.

Below is the runs of  a walled city dating back to 1500 BC---just after the Indus valley cities collapsed
http://www.arianuova.org/img/dwaraka3.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TahXQ2WiF0s/Sx0vAyF84YI/AAAAAAAAZlg/C3y99E31Y4E/s400/Most+Fascinating+Underwater+Ruins+03.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------xxxx----------------------------------------------------------

But miles off the shore is the real deal, 120 feet below .Here below  is a recreation of the underwater structures dated back to the end of the last ice age.

An object recovered has been carbon dated to 7500 BC. So the mature phase of the city is estimated at 12,000 BC.


http://www.desivartha.com/images/Others/192.jpg




Notable features

1. Twin walled cities too big to be called villages

2. A remarkable series of stairs, leading to what appears to a pushkarani or pool seen in the Indus Saraswathy cities and most Indian temples

3. A citadel

4. Advanced geometrical patterns .

You see, the area of this site 25 miles off shore,  120 feet below, has not seen the sun for the past 12,000--10,000 - years
--Unlike the later sites including a Harappan city  wall which was destroyed in 1500 BC.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mp/2002/11/20/images/2002112000450202.jpg




This might overturn everything mordern textbooks tech about the origins of Civilization

Some of the manmade artefacts recovered

http://blondesearch.ru/img/2b/2b5/Dwarka_India_12000_Year_Old_City_of_Lord_Krishna_Found_1_of_5.jpg





The mordern Dwarka

http://www.tripdealsadvisor.com/wp-content/uploads/Dwarka-Temple.jpg

Originally posted by oxydracae

we can't compare Göbekli Tepe with underwater Dwarka, because the archaeology of Göbekli Tepe is well established whereas regarding underwater Dwarka there are many archaeological controversies, and some archaeologist even call it pseudo-archaeology.



Its painful to accept it. But in the end, if verification approves, all the established dogmas should be shattered.


It is also painful to see more of that wonted "nationalist card" being pulled on me . The Dwarka phenomenon has its greatest proponents in the West.It is an eminent western university that has conducted Geological studies and presented the water level rise charts that proved a huge loss of Land in the west coast of India at the end of the last ice age(21,000 BP)

Oxydraceae,

You are correct in that Dwarka is lagging behind in archaeology. It has not been funded properly .

Quite contrary to your claims , Dwarka is well attested in Vedic literature, in Geological studies and resonance imagery.

Underwater archaeology has lagged behind as there are technical difficulties  in studying a site 120 feet below the sea.

But the sea bed imagery and the artifacts collected have validated the presence of man made structures .

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SUfDYimr5nQ/TuHDSMpBEeI/AAAAAAAACcA/YohjDE2S_zI/s1600/Dravida+2.png












Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2012 at 08:34

This post ignores procedure for the moment and looks at mythology. The Veda site is biased but it has offered its own bibliography.


Dwarka is one of the most important cities in Vedic Literature. Much like the city of Troy, Dwarka only confirms thousands of years of literature.

It was the Capital of the Yadavas, ruled by Krishna.

http://veda.wdfiles.com/local--files/dwaraka/krishna-in-dwaraka.jpg


On the comparability of archaeology and lore I found the following article.

Historicity of Dwarka



In the early eighties an important archaeological site was found in http://veda.wikidot.com/bharat - Bharat , at Dwaraka, the site of the legendary city of http://veda.wikidot.com/krishna - Shri Krishna . Dwaraka was submerged by the sea right after the death of Shri Krishna. This inscription refers to Dwaraka as the capital of the western coast of Saurashtra and still more important, states that Shri Krishna lived here. The discovery of the legendary city of Dwaraka which is said to have been founded by Shri Krishna, is an important landmark in the history of Bharat. It has set to rest the doubts expressed by historians about the historicity of Mahabharata and the very existence of Dwaraka city. It has greatly narrowed the gap in Indian history by establishing the continuity of the Indian civilization from the Vedic Age to the present day.

Now fresh archeological evidence has surfaced proving beyond reasonable doubt the existence of the historic city of Dwaraka, and throwing light on the lives of people who inhabited the "City of Gold". 

Excavations at Dwaraka that began in 1981 helped add credence to the legend of Krishna and the Mahabharat war as well as provide ample evidence of the advanced societies that lived in these areas-the Harappan settlements that represent some of the world’s greatest civilization. One of the first outposts to be excavated, soon after independence was in the Ahmedabad district. Evidence suggests that these settlers brought with them a highly developed culture that was rich not just in the arts but in the sciences as well. The emphasis was on a well-organised society based on trade that was conducted through their ports.

Dwaraka, for example was a well-planned township, its harbour consisted of a rocky ridge modified into an anchorage for berthing vessels, a unique feature in harbour technology that was in use even before the Phoenicians attempted this in the Mediterranean sea much later. The man-made holes in the ridge and the large stone anchors lying there suggest that large ships used to be anchored there while smaller boats carried men and cargo up the river.

The foundation of boulders on which the city's walls were erected proves that the land was reclaimed from the sea about 3,600 years ago. The Mahabharata has references to such reclamation activity at Dwaraka. Seven islands mentioned in it have also been discovered submerged in the Arabian Sea. Pottery, which has been established by thermoluminiscence tests to be 3,528 years old and carrying inscriptions in late Indus Valley civilization script; iron stakes and triangular three-holed anchors discovered here find mention in the Mahabharata. Among the many objects unearthed that further prove Dwaraka's connection with the epic is a seal engraved with the image of a three-headed animal. The epic mentions that such a seal was given to the citizens of Dwaraka as a proof of identity when the city was threatened by King Jarasandha of the powerful Magadh kingdom. Dr Rao, of the National Institute of Oceanography that was instrumental in conducting much of the underwater excavations


These evidences prove beyond doubt that Kusasthali, a pre-Dwaraka settlement did exist in Bet, Dwaraka. Archeologists have concluded that this early settlement of Kusasthali was first occupied and fortified during the Mahabharata period and was named Dwaraka. After realizing that the narrow terraces were not sufficient for the increasing population, a new town was built a few years later at the mouth of the river Gomati. This planned port city was also called Dwaraka, further adding credence to the fact that the Mahabharata was not a myth but an important source of history.


Interesting descriptions about its construction are found in Puranas:

Fearing attack from Jarasangh and Kaalayvan on Mathura, Shri Krishna and Yadavas left Mathura and arrived at the coast of Saurashtra. They decided to build their capital in the coastal region and invoke the Vishwakarma the deity of construction. However, Vishwakarma says that the task can be completed only if Samudradev, the Lord of the sea provided some land. Shri Krishna worshipped Samudradev, who was pleased and gave them land measuring 12 yojans and the Lord vishwakarma build Dwaraka, a "city in gold".


  http://veda.wikidot.com/arjuna - Arjuna went to Dwarka to bring Krishna's grandsons and the Yadava wives to http://veda.wikidot.com/hastinapur - Hastinapur . After Arjun left Dwaraka, it was submerged in the sea. This is the account given by Arjuna, in Mahabharat:

"The sea, which had been beating against the shores, suddenly broke the boundary that was imposed on it by nature. The sea rushed into the city. It coursed through the streets of the beautiful city. The sea covered up everything in the city. I saw the beautiful buildings becoming submerged one by one. In a matter of a few moments it was all over. The sea had now become as placid as a lake. There was no trace of the city. Dwaraka was just a name; just a memory."

                                                                                      ----Mahabharata.


http://blondesearch.ru/img/46/464/The_lost_city_of_Dwarka_Krishnas_Capital_Greek_Atlantis.jpg

"If we suppose that Dwarka submerged due to a tsunami, the gradual movement of the sea can't be explained".

Director of the state archaeology department YS Rawat, too, believes that a tsunami could well have done to ancient Dwarka what it did to Aceh. "It is just that in the ancient times such sea activity was not known as tsunami.

It is possible that large waves like that of a tsunami struck Dwarka and drowned it," he says. "In fact, near the sea of today's Dwarka, one can find remnants of Harappan culture during low tide."

But here are three texts including the Harivamsa, the Matsya Purana and the Bhagavat-gita, which state that it took seven days to vacate Dwaraka before it was submerged by the sea. If we suppose that Dwaraka submerged due to a tsunami, the gradual movement of the sea can't be explained.

Swami Sadanand Saraswati, the secretary of the Shardapith Dwarka says, "Yes, Dwarka was devastated by the sea. According to the Bhagvat Gita, the Ekadash Skand mentions Krishna sending a message to the people of Dwarka. He told them that once he leaves , there would be no one on this earth to save Dwarka. The sea would finish Dwarka and hence he asks the 56 crore Yaduvanshis to leave Dwarka".

http://veda.wikidot.com/dwaraka


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2012 at 19:18
Interesting. It seems Atlantis wasn't the only ancient city lost to the sea.

-------------
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2012 at 23:47

Like Oxydraceae said, some cowardly individuals call it as "Pseudo Archaeology' . They have not gotten over the shock of the prospect .

They find it easier to ignore Dwarka than to confront it and hope that it will vanish off their nightmares .

Dwarka does  not get the attention it deserves. It is slowly , once again, falling into Oblivion.



I would make a bold assertion here.

My Induction is thus.......

Greeks ==Bharathas ===Common Y chromosomal lineage (Halogroup R1a1 ) not earlier than 18,000 BC.

Greek ==Sanskrit ==Indo European

Greek Pantheon==Vedic Pantheon

Zeus Pater === Rig Vedic Dyaus Pitar

Iliad ===Mahabharatha (In many ways you never had a clue of)

Odyssey ==Ramayana ( Parallels not as impressive as between Iliad and Bharatha , but the Archery contest for the suitor is an exact version like many others)

Greek  Philosophy & Vedanta have unbelievable parallels with a monist tending.

Greek Heracles == Vedic Krishna


Then we have two sunken cities ---Dwarka & Atlantis. Atlantis had not been found, but Dwaraka has .Added to this, Greeks are mentioned in the Mahabharata as a participant in the Kurukshetra war( November 22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31st_century_BC - 3067 BCE ) .


I know my conclusion.



Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 10:12
Considering there is 20 million sq. miles of land that was once above the sea, I believe Dwaraka is only the first to be found.  And only the first to be found in that area.  The area that was inundated is vast.
If you go to Google Earth, there are many instances of roadways and other features that exist underwater.  Some are certainly natural formations, but there are many that are not.
 
In the UK there is the Lost Land of Lyonesse.  In sat. photos one can see roads that seemingly end at the waters edge, continue out for some miles.
On the Pacific coast,  there is the lost land of Mu.  There are legends in other places that haven't been examined yet.
 
The best known of the sunken citys is Atlantis.  The location of the city itself is unknown.  But the City of Atlantis is only a tiny fraction of what was.  Plato's account has the "10 Kingdoms of Atlantis" and had a "Plain" that was several hundred miles across.  He also states that the "Capitol" city had buildings made of red and black stone. 
All of these things are to be found on the East coast of S. America.  The "city" of Atlantis was very likely a trading outpost for the main population centers of that time, much like the Island of Thera was to the Minoan Civ.  But don't confuse the 2 sites as some folks have.
 
There are many people who feel very comfortable with the idea that we are the first Civ. to have evolved on this planet.  Any ideas contrary to this threatens their "comfort level".  And any suggestion that these folks had advanced technologies, is met with skeptisim.  These folks then feel that it's perfectly logical that ET's brought this technology.  ????Confused
 


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 11:16


I think a new topic on this would be nice.

What do you think Clay?.

I appreciate the effort to locate Atlantis based on the mention of building materials . But how valid is a very very young description by Plato, thousands of years after the alleged event? In the case of Dwarka, we dont have such a huge time gap and literary record directly overlaps with an archaeological location. We have no real evidence to close in on Atlantis.You cant build history on myths.

But if you consider the circumstantial evidence that Bharatas and Greeks had a common past, civilization, culture and ancestors, Dwarka is the best candidate for Atlantis.



Atlantis

Dwarka

Atlantis was relatively advanced, well-organized and prosperous civilization.

“…island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvelous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent.”

Dwarka was built by Vishwakarma on request of Lord Krishna. It had six well-organized sectors, residential and commercial zones, wide roads, plazas, palaces and many public utilities. A hall called “Sudharma Sabha” was built to hold public meetings. The city also boasted having the possession of a good sea harbor. The city had palaces made of gold, silver and other precious stones. – Wikipedia
Atlantis flourished and submerged to sea approximately 11000 BP, as claimed by Plato
Old Dwarka was lost to sea in 7500 BP, 36 years after the war of Mahabharata.
Its destruction was the result of global cataclysm – The island of Atlantis was swallowed up by the sea in a single dreadful day and a night…

“But at a later time there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and one grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished; wherefore also the ocean at that spot has now become impassable and unsearchable, being blocked up by the shoal mud which the island created as it settled down.”

Following is the account given by Arjuna, found in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata - Mahabharata :

…imposed on it by nature. The sea rushed into the city. It coursed through the streets of the beautiful city. The sea covered up everything in the city. I saw the beautiful buildings becoming submerged one by one. In a matter of a few moments it was all over. The sea had now become as placid as a lake. There was no trace of the city. Dwarka was just a name; just a memory.

Location not found, different people have given different location of Atlantis over the years with the possibility that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Location_hypotheses_of_Atlantis - Atlantis can exist anywhere on earth… Found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Cambay - Gulf Of Cambay . The old Dwarka is located near the site of the current city of Dwarka in Gujarat, India, few kilometers from shore in the sea.
Atlantis has always been a myth and a topic of debate for scholars and researchers for its existence. The only known account of Atlantis mention is in Plato’s conversation with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermocrates - Hermocrates , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates - Socrates , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timaeus_of_Locri - Timaeus of Locri & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critias - Critias in 360 BC.Dwarka on the other hand is mentioned in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata - Mahabharata , the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavata_Purana - Bhagavata Purana , the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu_Purana - Vishnu Purana , and many other Hindu literature.
 
http://thealienworld.com/2010/07/31/atlantis-vs-dwarka/




Nah........This is way off the topic ........The topic is on Hindu Buddhist Kingdoms.


I quit



Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 13:46
And the subject fell to submerged citys.  I was simply trying to support your claims for Dwaraka.  What?, you can't handle the idea that there are other Civs. not connected to India or Hinduism.  I bring up the possibility and likelyhood that Atlantis, as an ancient Civ. did exist and roughly where, and you try to claim it as part of some lost hindu empire.  I would suggest that you do a lot of reading before you lock that idea in.
 
I actually hate the "A" word, as it brings in decades of bad Archeaology and strange agendas.  I prefer to refer to "The Lost Civilization" instead.
 
Atlantis is reffd. to in many other ancient sources besides Plato.  You can say what you wish about Plato's description, but everything that he wrote about can be found in S. America.
What your going to run into is that there were many other Civilizations, existing at the same time as Dawarka.
 
You quit, why?  Because I don't happen to agree that the Hindu culture was the only one existing at the time?  If you were a little more open minded, you'd see that I wasn't trying to hijack your thread but providing support for the existence of unknown submerged Civs.  But your Hinducentrism gets in the way.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 14:07
The seismic event that destroyed Atlantis was an earthquake of incredible destructive power.  It occurred at roughly the same time as the destruction of Atlantis.  The quake actually caused an uplifting of the lower half of S. America of several thousand feet.  Tiauanaco had a waterfront on Lake Titticaca.  Studies on the soil have showed this.  The lake's shoreline is now 60 miles north.  This event would have produced a tsunami of incredible size and destructive power.
 
The timeline you give for the inundation of Dwaraka is about the same as the inundation of the Mediteranean, and the Black Sea.  Gobekli Tepe would have already been abandoned and the "Osirian" Civilization would have been wiped out by the same event.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 14:27
I was just reading the older posts.  The columns at Gobekli are not Megaliths.  They have been carved and cut specifically for their use, to hold up the roof of the structure.  And the latest dating on the earliest levels at Gobekli places it at about 12,000 to 15,000 ybp.


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 19:46
Originally posted by red clay

The seismic event that destroyed Atlantis was an earthquake of incredible destructive power.  It occurred at roughly the same time as the destruction of Atlantis.  The quake actually caused an uplifting of the lower half of S. America of several thousand feet.  Tiauanaco had a waterfront on Lake Titticaca.  Studies on the soil have showed this.  The lake's shoreline is now 60 miles north.  This event would have produced a tsunami of incredible size and destructive power.
 
The timeline you give for the inundation of Dwaraka is about the same as the inundation of the Mediteranean, and the Black Sea.  Gobekli Tepe would have already been abandoned and the "Osirian" Civilization would have been wiped out by the same event.
 
 
 
 

What caused an earthquake of this scale? A volcanic eruption or meteor? Perhaps the destruction of Sodom and Noah's flood were also the result of this disaster


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 31-Jul-2012 at 00:01
Originally posted by red clay

And the subject fell to submerged citys.  I was simply trying to support your claims for Dwaraka. 




Well you have a queer way implying things without giving a clue. The only Idea I got from you is that "Dwarka is little in comparison to what remains to come", which is a little beyond the reasonable. Neolithic structures(huts ) have been found in the Mediterranean sea dating back to 5000 BC at a max. Discovery channel had a show on that hut and a well .

How would you define a "Civilization". Can every brick, every hut, every Megalith qualify for that throne?

Gone ! Apparently for such said trivialities. The pomp of organized nationhood, of mans intellectual addictions, of great urbanisation wonders , of uttered,recorded speech,of star gazing ,of decoding the sky and encoding it again upon your posterity, of Philosophy , of  reason..........of Civilization

For if bigger and older sites lay ravaged by the sea, we should invariably see the re sprouting of that culture from Square one, if indeed inhabitants survived such a cataclysm. For Example , after Dwarka was submerged , the next settlement was the neolithic Mehrgarh (7000-5500 BC). From the red stone used at Dwarka , at Mehrgarh they used baked mud bricks.

Originally posted by red clay


What?, you can't handle the idea that there are other Civs. not connected to India or Hinduism.  


I have never implied such a thing . I tried to simplify things . It seems you dont believe in Proto Indo Europeans . Thats okay actually.


Agreed that I am biased towards the Vedic Civilization, which is basically a consequence of my knowledge not surmounting any further, I will also admit that I believe the Vedic Civilization to be the Alpha male.

That belief comes from the fact that Astronomy,Geometry , mythology, trade, the Hittites and Mittani, the Bos Indicus and so on have flowed from Saptha Sindhu westwards into Mesopotamia, and little back into India. Aryavarta gave more than it took.

 Just give me my time....the above assertions wont go without backing. I promise.



Originally posted by red clay

What your going to run into is that there were many other Civilizations, existing at the same time as Dawarka.
 

I am like St Thomas. I believe what I see.


Red, you of all people, know what Textbooks teach little children all over the world.

They teach that Sumer is the undisputed cradle of Civilization.

Must we not remove this dirt ?

Remove Dwarka from the scene and the truth is ---"Sumer, Egypt and Aryavarta are the three mother civilizations".

Consider the three WMD 's below and the above statement needs revision


Not only do I disagree , I also find it important to enlighten people about the Astronomical, literary and Philosophical contents of the Vedas.

I have three WMD's which can potentially devastate

1. The Saraswathy river which dried up around 2000 BC. This shatters all the lies about India.
2. The Site of Dwarka, the oldest yet discovered.
3. The Astronomical code of the Rig Veda.

Originally posted by red clay


You quit, why?  Because I don't happen to agree that the Hindu culture was the only one existing at the time? 
 


I needed to see how you take disagreement. You have taken it in style.

Also because I have a scheme of procedure to follow, based on Chronology. Dwarka comes in last.

The first is "The Identity of the Vedic and Saraswathy Civilization".  There was no "Aryan Invasion"


Btw, please stop using the words "Hindu" and "Hinducentric". Dont mix up ideology and history.

These words are as big a fallacy as "Islamophobia"


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 31-Jul-2012 at 00:15
Originally posted by red clay

I was just reading the older posts.  The columns at Gobekli are not Megaliths.  They have been carved and cut specifically for their use, to hold up the roof of the structure.  And the latest dating on the earliest levels at Gobekli places it at about 12,000 to 15,000 ybp.


I take your word for it. 


But off the record......would you say the same of the Stone henge if its creators didn't take the pains to put those slabs on top ?


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 31-Jul-2012 at 19:52
Originally posted by SuryaVajra

Originally posted by red clay

I was just reading the older posts.  The columns at Gobekli are not Megaliths.  They have been carved and cut specifically for their use, to hold up the roof of the structure.  And the latest dating on the earliest levels at Gobekli places it at about 12,000 to 15,000 ybp.


I take your word for it. 


But off the record......would you say the same of the Stone henge if its creators didn't take the pains to put those slabs on top ?

For centuries it was thought Stonehenge was the remains of Trojan king Brutus' palace. According to legend, only those of royal blood could accurately count the standing stones


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2012 at 04:43
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by red clay

The seismic event that destroyed Atlantis was an earthquake of incredible destructive power.  It occurred at roughly the same time as the destruction of Atlantis.  The quake actually caused an uplifting of the lower half of S. America of several thousand feet.  Tiauanaco had a waterfront on Lake Titticaca.  Studies on the soil have showed this.  The lake's shoreline is now 60 miles north.  This event would have produced a tsunami of incredible size and destructive power.
 
The timeline you give for the inundation of Dwaraka is about the same as the inundation of the Mediteranean, and the Black Sea.  Gobekli Tepe would have already been abandoned and the "Osirian" Civilization would have been wiped out by the same event.
 
 
 
 

What caused an earthquake of this scale? A volcanic eruption or meteor? Perhaps the destruction of Sodom and Noah's flood were also the result of this disaster
 
 
See the Links:
 
http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/content/33/8/685.abstract - http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/content/33/8/685.abstract
 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guano/472552606/ - http://www.flickr.com/photos/guano/472552606/
 
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2005/07/22-01.html - http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2005/07/22-01.html
 
http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/atlantis_no_way_no_how_no_where/ - http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/atlantis_no_way_no_how_no_where/
 
The net is full of such...take your pick.


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: oxydracae
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2012 at 04:26
Star The first thing I am not able to understand is why the Holy Hindu Pilgrimage Dwarka is associated with the finding at Gulf of Cambay... they are too far apart (I have encircled both the regions)
 
Star Secondly, this is a 9500 years old piece of wood, on the basis of whom they are claiming 9500 years old Civilization.. Note: this piece of wood was found by Environment Engineers not archaeologists by dredging the sea-floor...
 
 
Dr. D.P. Agrawal, Chairman of the Paleoclimate Group, said "To date a city on the basis of a dredged sample of wood is irresponsible and ridiculous. I have worked with the Paleoclimate Group on the changes in climate over the ages. It is a known fact that during the Ice Age, about 20,000 years ago, the Arabian Sea was 100 metres lower (than its present level). Entire forests are buried beneath the sea in this area. It is not extraordinary to find a piece of wood going back to 7500 B.C. or 5000 B.C. There is no way it can be used as evidence to date this so-called city. The two laboratories that dated the wood gave different dates, one said it was 7,500 years old and the other 5,500. The variation is far too much and adds to the confusion.
They are dating this as pre-Harappan because then it is easy for them to establish something that is very close to their hearts. They want to say that the Aryans were from India. They want to establish that India was the cradle of civilisation."
 
Jaya Menon, a lecturer in the Department of Archaeology and Ancient History, MS University, Baroda, said "There are two interconnected ideas here. First, the age of the artefact cannot be correlated to the antiquity of the site. Secondly, the material you are dating should be from a secure context. Only then can you consider the information to be reliable. An underwater site is definitely not a secure context unlike an archaeological mound on land."
 
Professor K.V. Raman, former head of the Department of Archaeology, University of Madras, and former Superintending Archaeologist with the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), said "cultures do not exist in isolation. There has to be some interconnectedness. If this is pre-Harappan, then there should be some evidence here of what was to come later. I am really sick of the politicisation of matters like this. It destroys the integrity of my profession."
 
 
 
 


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2012 at 10:34
The above is an excellant example of why Indian history is in the state that it's in.


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2012 at 13:22
Professor K.V. Raman, former head of the Department of Archaeology, University of Madras, and former Superintending Archaeologist with the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), said "cultures do not exist in isolation. There has to be some interconnectedness. If this is pre-Harappan, then there should be some evidence here of what was to come later. I am really sick of the politicisation of matters like this. It destroys the integrity of my profession."
 
 
 
Spoken as a true social scientist and not the subjective agitator for nationalist fervor and revisionist history based on the vaguest of evidences and distortion and rejection-ism. Another good example remains with the controversy dating the Vedic culture in toto. Indian nationalist/types wish it to be the oldest no matter the counter..... or defining parameters.....or even when it's rejected by multi-disciplinary examination.... by others who do not support the theorem. But wishing does not make it so.
 
 


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2012 at 00:18
Originally posted by oxydracae

Star The first thing I am not able to understand is why the Holy Hindu Pilgrimage Dwarka is associated with the finding at Gulf of Cambay... they are too far apart (I have encircled both the regions)


That does not question the historicity of the Vedic Dwarka . Old Dwarka was lost to the sea. The  medieval builders of the new Dwarka might not have had a clue.

 
Originally posted by oxydracae

Star Secondly, this is a 9500 years old piece of wood, on the basis of whom they are claiming 9500 years old Civilization.. Note: this piece of wood was found by Environment Engineers not archaeologists by dredging the sea-floor...



Guess who found the Gospel of Thomas. Guess who robbed graves ere the geeks?

How hard you try to reject solid evidence recovered from from a habitation from where hundreds of manmade objects were dredged out !

But your efforts are to to avail. Engineers cant and have not dated anything anywhere at any time.

Samples obtained were sent to laboratories in Oxford, UK and Hannover, Germany, as well as several institutions within India, to be dated.

If you have watched to video, you might have  had  a better view of things than such an unwillingness to appreciate. 

Originally posted by oxydracae

 
Dr. D.P. Agrawal, Chairman of the Paleoclimate Group, said "To date a city on the basis of a dredged sample of wood is irresponsible and ridiculous. I have worked with the Paleoclimate Group on the changes in climate over the ages. It is a known fact that during the Ice Age, about 20,000 years ago, the Arabian Sea was 100 metres lower (than its present level). Entire forests are buried beneath the sea in this area. It is not extraordinary to find a piece of wood going back to 7500 B.C. or 5000 B.C. There is no way it can be used as evidence to date this so-called city. The two laboratories that dated the wood gave different dates, one said it was 7,500 years old and the other 5,500. The variation is far too much and adds to the confusion.


Nice guy you got here Oxy. Mr DP Agrawal.

I like Mr Vishal Agrawal. They seem not to like each other.

Look at this wonderful paper for instance.
http://vishalagarwal.voiceofdharma.com/articles/indhistory/amt/index.htm

Coming back to Dwarka, I think I must give you a more rigorous treatment as regards archaeology.

By ADRINARYAN BADRINARYAN, chief geologist with the scientific team from the National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) responsible for the underwater surveys in the Gulf of Cambay.

Link is provided at the end.

It was generally believed that a well organized civilization could not have existed prior to 5500 BP. Many were reluctant to accept that the flood myths mentioned in many ancient religious writings held some grains of truth. The recent discovery made in the Gulf of Cambay, India shocked many, and made some sit up and watch with interest. It clearly established the existence of an ancient civilization that was submerged in the sea. The methodologies adopted to study this find, were novel and different, wherein advanced marine technologies and the most modern scientific applications of various disciplines were put to use. The traditional but conservative archaeologists found it hard to accept that a major discovery could have been made by hitherto unapplied, unheard of techniques. Some observed and understood the importance of the discovery and came out in open support. Initially when the sidescan sonar images of underwater structures were shown, some called it a magic of computer software. When hundreds of artifacts were collected and shown, they opined that the ancient river could have transported it! Again detailed scientific studies were undertaken to prove that the artifacts are insitu.

The criticism has driven us to adopt the most modern technologies and scientific methodologies available in the world, which have completely substantiated our findings, and the results have been published as research papers in reputed international journals. Now several authors are quoting the Gulf of Cambay work as a standard and a bench mark methodology for modern marine archaeological surveys and investigations. The discovery has clearly established the possibility of ancient civilizations that were submerged due to flooding by rising sea waters after the last ice age.


The National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT), a Govt. of India undertaking, has been carrying out several multi-disciplinary marine surveys along the Indian coastal areas for various purposes. During the course of a few geological surveys in Gujarat (Fig.1) in the Gulf of Cambay, (Fig.2), NIOT came across palaeo river channels in the sea. These were seen to be the extension of the present day major rivers of the area.

In a similar marine survey, in a Coastal Research Ship during 1999-2000 when the author was the Chief Scientist, several unusual frames of Side Scan Sonar images were encountered. These had square and rectangular features in an arranged geometric fashion, which are not expected, in the marine domain. Such features are unlikely to be due to natural marine geological processes. This made the author suspect that human workmanship must have been involved here. The surveys were followed up by the author in the following years and a couple of palaeo channels of old rivers were discovered (Fig. 3 &4) in the middle of the Cambay area under 20-40m water depths, at a distance of about 20 kms from the present day coast.

In a similar marine survey, in a Coastal Research Ship during 1999-2000 when the author was the Chief Scientist, several unusual frames of Side Scan Sonar images were encountered. These had square and rectangular features in an arranged geometric fashion, which are not expected, in the marine domain. Such features are unlikely to be due to natural marine geological processes. This made the author suspect that human workmanship must have been involved here. The surveys were followed up by the author in the following years and a couple of palaeo channels of old rivers were discovered (Fig. 3 &4) in the middle of the Cambay area under 20-40m water depths, at a distance of about 20 kms from the present day coast.

The Gulf of Cambay forms a funnel shaped entrant of the Arabian Sea, sandwiched between the mainland Gujarat and Saurashtra Penninsula in the west. This gulf is 135 km long in a N-S direction and is more than 100km at its widest part. It is one of the roughest and most complicated seas in the world and covers an area of about 3000 sq.km. Several major rivers including the Narmada, Tapi, Sabarmathi, Mahi, Chathranji, etc. drain into it. It has a macro tidal range of 12m and the currents are up to 8 knots. The sea is often subjected to severe winds resulting in very rough conditions. These types of turbulence churn the seabed and produce enormous quantities of silt, making the seawater brownish and turbid, with the result that is that it is impervious to light rays. The combined effect of these conditions makes this part of the country unfit for diving and underwater operations and operating underwater videography is impossible. Hence, only instruments operated on the principle of sound, like sonar equipments and magnetic equipments can work here. This includes the Side Scan Sonar, Sub-bottom Profiler, and Multibeam ecosounder, apart from marine magnetometer.

The hard areas reflect more energy and are seen as dark shades, whereas softer areas do not reflect energy as well and are represented by lighter shades. This “Backscatter” is absent behind objects or features that rise above the seafloor, and are represented as white shadows in the sonar image. The dimensions of shadows are used to infer the size of the objects. The system used was a digital one, which provides high-resolution sonar images of the seafloor through advanced digital technology in 100 and 400 kHz frequency. The unit is connected to a Differencial Global Positioning System (DGPS) for the accurate position of the survey vessel and in turn that of the objects.

In these surveys it was the SideScan Sonar that gave excellent results supported by other systems. Initially two major palaeo channels of rivers were recognized. One was over a length of 9.2km and another over 9.0km. When these were sampled, it was seen that just below a thin marine sediment cover of few centimeters, river alluvium and pebbles typical of terrestrial river sediments, below which typical river conglomerates were observed at depth. Such evidence clearly indicated that the area presently under the sea was originally dry land over which rivers were flowing. Due to different factors they became submerged and now lie under water. The sonar images showed regular geometric patterns in one palaeo channel over a length of 9km in the sea about 20km west of Hazira coastal area. Associated with this on either side of the palaeo channel, basement like features in a grid pattern were observed at a water depth of 20-40m. These resemble an urban habitation site where, the basement now at the bottom of the sea, pit like structures are seen. Another palaeo channel over 9.2km was detected off the Suvali coastal area. Here also similar features were observed.

In general the basement like features were located in a linear east-west direction on either side of the palaeo channel. It is seen that these features are 5x4m size on the eastern side whereas the westernmost part had dimensions of 16 x 15m. The habitation sites are all seen to be laid in a strict grid like pattern (Fig.5) indicating a good sense of town planning by the ancients.


There were also evidences of water conducting systems like canals, etc. All these point to a properly planned township, with a high level of knowledge and practice by the ancients. The area in general is covered by sand waves that occur above the seabed. Often these cover the dwelling but even then the shapes could be made out (Fig.6). Apart from the regular sites of habitation, the Side Scan Sonar picked up images of several big structures. Some of these structures are as follows:

There is a rectangular (41m x25m) shaped depression, wherein one can see steps gradually going down to reach a depth of about 7m (Fig.7). Surrounding this depression there is a wall like projection on all sides. One could observe an inlet and outlet and also a separate enclosure. This looks like a tank or bathing facility now occurring below 40m of seawater. It occurs near the western periphery of the town. It resembles the “Great Bath” that is found in the ruins of “Mohenjodaro” and “Harappa”, where these structures also occur on the western side of the township. There are two divisions in the tank, which may represent separate enclosures for men and women or for socially higher and lower categories of people. There are two openings probably for an inlet and exit of water to keep the water in the tank fresh and clean.

In Fig.8 one could observe a prominent and well-made long linear basement of a major structure measuring 200m x 45m. It nestles on high ground and one can see steps on the right corner approaching the structure. Inside the structure there is many 18m and above square shaped room like features with fortifications surrounding it. This type of huge structure resembles the “Citadel” found in Mohenjodaro, Harrappa, and Dholavira where these again occur at the western extremity on the high ground. Probably it is an administrative building supervising the entire civic activities of the township or could be a place of worship. Some pieces of fossilized human bones, natural teeth and some fossilized animal bones were recovered during sampling on the eastern side of the citadel

Sonar image in Fig.9 picked up a major dilapidated structure measuring 190m x 85m with spaces separated by what looks like collapsed walls. In front of it, on the bottom side there are several basements of rectangular shaped 2.5 to 3.5m x 6m structures, resembling minor dwellings. It could be an ancient granary for the township probably with dwelling place nearby, for the workers. In the nearby areas some fossilized food grains have been collected. In many of the Harappan sites the granary is a regular feature.

A buried structural basement is depicted in Fig.11. The main structure measures 40m x 19m with wall-like dark features rising to 2-3m above the seabed. A series of step-like features are seen approaching the structure from the right side. To one corner of the main structure an 11m x 7m rectangular depression looking like a small tank or pond is observed.

A sub-bottom profiler survey, instead of reflecting sound waves from the seabed like side scan sonar, penetrate the seabed. The waves travel beneath the seabed in different formations in different speeds and the instrument collects the reflection data over selected frequencies. It provides good depth information on geological features apart from delineating any suspected buried anthropogenic structures.

The sub-bottom profiler image in Fig.12 is below the 200m x 45m Citadel like structure. The standout features were picked up at regular intervals and appear to be the basement and foundations of the structure. It is observed that the foundations have been dug up to 5-6m in the soil over which broad column like features have been constructed, probably to take the load off the huge structure above.

The sub-bottom profiler image in Fig.13 is below the buried settlement of a 74 x 48m structure. Here also man made foundations like columns can be clearly seen emerging from below the seabed and occur as standout features. Here the foundations have been dug up to 3-4 m deep in the soil. These types of planning and methods of construction by the ancients clearly reveal that they had a very good knowledge of civil and structural engineering, wherein broader and deeper foundations were provided for bigger and heavier structures and thinner and shallower foundations for comparatively smaller structures. Likewise almost all the structures including the dwelling sites indicate a good amount of planning and design, taking into consideration the structural aspects.

Magnetic surveys were carried out by deploying a high-resolution Marine Ceisium vapour Magnetometer. The survey was for observing magnetic signatures occurring as anamolies of subsurface magnetic bodies of the area. The instrument was capable of sensing upto 0.001 nT at 1 sample rate. The values here were corrected for diurnal variation so as to remove the temporal variation in the earth’s magnetic field. The corrected magnetic field value is a result of the marine magnetic components: - regional geological features are very deep seated in origin and have depth persistence whereas one should look for very shallow and near seabed anaomolies that do not extend in depth. Several shallow near surface anomalies were picked up ranging in depth from 1m below surface to as much as 50m.

 The deep seated anomalies are atleast below 400m from the seabed surface. The near surface anomalies in general are covered by top sediments and are likely to be archaeological sites, which are to be examined and explored later. Due to these surveys a vast area has now acquired importance for archaeological purposes – including areas that were earlier not picked up by sidescan images. As such these surveys enhance the area of archaeological interest. Obviously this was an extensive civilization, the remains and ruins of which have since been covered by shifting shoals, sandwaves, tectonism etc., which are very common features in the Gulf of Cambay.

Even though a variety of objects and artifacts were collected in settlements, some persons expressed doubts whether these could have been transported by paleochannel and may not be insitu. To clear such doubts detailed geochemical analysis were carried out. Ten geological soil samples and ten artifacts were chosen from the Gulf of Cambay area. Since trace elements like Ti, Hf, Th, etc and Rare Earth Elements (REE) are immobile they preserve their signature without alteration and hence reflect primary petrogenic character. These 20 selected representative samples were analysed using ICP-Mass spectrometer. The rare earth element pattern normalized with shale is given in figure 14 & 15. The results of the analysis clearly reveal that there is one to one match between the archaeological material and Cambay bed sediments. This is characterized by leaching of light rare earth elements and a prominent Europeam anamoly .The ternary and Binary plots of both the materials show clustering of all samples in one place indicating the samples are of same host chemistry and are insitu i.e. that the archaeological material are not transported but are made from locally available material only.

Sampling: In order to substantiate the findings detailed sampling was carried out. Since the sea condition was very rough and the water turbid and brown, sampling was carried out in areas where side scan images show excellent results. The samples were collected by utilizing a grab sampler, dredger, gravity corer and vibro corer. Large numbers of samples were carefully collected, systematically numbered and properly preserved. The artifacts collected included a variety of pottery pieces, Mesolithic stone tools, a few Paleolithic macro stone tools, beads made of semiprecious stones, brick pieces, hearth material, wattle and daub structure materials, corals, perfectly holed stones, fossilized human remains and human teeth. Fig.16 has three potsherd pieces. These are unfired and normally sun-dried, made of clay and of great antiquity. On the other side of the figure a cross like object and some figurines are seen. Fig.17 shows the shape of deer’s head and to the right a well turned ornamental piece with a straight hole in the center. How the ancients were able to make them in stone is still an enigma.

In Fig.18 there are four very important objects. First, one can observe a fossilized jawbone (mandible) with a natural tooth kept in front. Next to it is a part of the carbonized wooden log. This was obtained from the top stratigraphic colomn at a depth about 30 to 40cm below the seabed and it was sent for dating. In the left corner there are rolled objects and long linear beads which when strung together forms a necklace. In the right hand bottom of the figure linear beads made of stone are there with holes in the middle.

Gulf of Cambay Cradle of Ancient Civilization (cont.)
By Badrinaryan Badrinaryan

A series of microlithic tools were collected at various locations. Generally microlithic tools are characteristic of the Mesolithic period and are found between Paleolithic and Neolithic Stone Age periods. The characteristic features of Mesolithic tools are that unlike the earlier Paleolithic stone tools these are much smaller, normally between 5cm to 1cm in length and are made of finely crafted semi-precious stones. These include quartz, chert, jasper, flint, chalcedony, agate, corundum, etc. Sampling collected about 248 such tools. The tools included a baked blade with a serrated edge, point, and point on flakes, lunate, scraper, cores with negative chipping and a borer. The tools have both geometric and non-geometric forms.

The Mesolithic period of Western India revealed the existence of their cultural phases, namely aceramic and ceramic. In general the Mesolithic sites confirmed the existence of a ceramic phase in its later part, containing other than potteries and microlithic tools, materials like wattle and clay shreds for house construction, flooring of the houses, etc. The Mesolithic sites are comparatively larger. Here the hunting and gathering way of life was replaced by organised food production. Holed stones which appeared in the late paleolithic became prominent in the Mesolithic. These holed stones appear to have been used as weights in digging sticks and as net sinkers by the fishing folks. In general a sedentary form of living heralded the beginning of other associated cultural artifacts like pottery, living in well-built houses like wattle and clay, or of sun dried and fired bricks.

Even though most of the artifacts are of Mesolithic period, there were some Paleolithic tools that were much older. It shows that people have been living in the Cambay area for quite some time. One example is the bifacial scrapper, made of chert and a very characteristic upper Paleolithic stone tool (Fig.36). Similar stone tools were also present but many of them due to long submergence and rolling in the seabed appear to have their edges smoothened out and the sharpness of the edges is rather less.

A thorough examination of the macro and micro levels of soils in Gulf of Cambay brought to light a wealth of plant material typical of the land domain. Extensive studies are being carried out by a botany Professor and the studies may initiate a new branch in Marine Archaeology that may be called Marine Archaeobotony. So far prominent plant species identified include palm, coconut, bamboo, areca plant, etc. Many of them are fossilized. Some of the species identified and photographed are as follows (Fig.35). The top left show fossilized food grains; in top right one could observe the inner portion of a bamboo plant. In the bottom left, plant fiber material could be clearly seen and at bottom right one could see palm leaf with typical ridges. All these were recognized under the microscope. The major wooden log a part of which is shown in Fig.18, when taken out of the seabed was very fresh, dark, hard and showing growth rings, etc. Within a couple of days of exposure to the atmosphere the wooden log completely shrunk and developed cracks. It has given important date for the area. This species has been tentatively identified as belonging to hard wood like rosewood. All of these point to well grown trees and foliage with a lot of good fresh water and somewhat warm climate, at the time of their growth in the area.


DATING OF THE SAMPLES

Dating of samples: Most of the structures that were discovered in the Gulf of Cambay had many similarities to the Citadel, Great Bath and grid-iron pattern habitation sites grannery, etc. of the Harappan civilization. But many of the artifacts and typology were very different and distinctive and with the presence of so many micro tools appeared to be much older than the Harappan. In order to establish the credibility and age of the civilization it was essential to date different objects and artifacts to establish the period of the Cambay civilization. There are many types of dating of archaeological artifacts like carbon dating, Thermoluminesence, OSL, AMS, Dendrochronoly archaeomagnetism, Electron Spin Resonence dating, Pottasium-Argon dating, Cation Ratio dating, etc. In all about 23 numbers datable objects were selected covering both the palaeochannels. From the samples obtained from the marine archaeological sites it was clear that the following methods will be most suitable and a fairly accurate age determination can be obtained from them. These are 14C radiocarbon dating, radio carbon dating by Accelerator Mass Spectrometer, Thermoluminescence and Optically stimulated luminescence.

Radio carbon dating is a method for obtaining age estimates on organic material and is effective from the present back to a maximum of 50,000 BP. Radio active carbon 14C produced in atmosphere is absorbed by plants and the radio active carbon enters the human and animal cycle when the plants are eaten by animal and human beings. The absorbing of 14C is stopped when a living organism dies and 14C starts to disintegrate. How much 14C is disintegrated and how much is left out can be measured and the rate at which it disintegrates is known. From this the age of organic objects like trees, corals, human remains, and shells etc.can be determined. For age determination tests about 50-100 gms of organic material is necessary. In the AMS, an organic sample much smaller of the order of 1 to 2 mgs is enough to calculate the age. This has several advantages over the regular 14C method. The TL method is mainly used for rocks, soil materials, pottery, etc. that were fired. It is based on the principle that almost all natural minerals are thermoluminescnt. Energy absorbed from ionizing radiation frees electrons that are trapped. Later heating releases the trapped electrons producing light. Measurement of the intensity of the light can be used to determine how much time has passed since the last time the object was heated. Natural radioactivity causes TL to build up so that older an object more light is produced. Since a certain amount of heating, generally up to 350 deg. C, is required TL works best for ceramics, cooking hearths, fired bricks, fire cracked rocks or fire treated minerals such as flint or chert.

The OSL is similar to Thermal dating. The minerals in the sediment grains are sensitive to light and when exposed to light the electrons vacate the sediment grains. This process is called recombination or clock setting event. To detect the age the comparision must be made between sediment grain with a known amount of added radiation and sediment grains that are acted upon naturally. This method is suitable for a variety of unheated sediments not older than 500,000 years. This includes silty and sandy sediments that are deposited by water.

The selected samples for various types of dating were sent to some reputed institutes in India, Oxford University, England and to Hannover Germany. Some samples were repeated in different institutes to get confirmation of the age. The results tallied very well. The datable objects were selected to represent both the palaeo channels. However comparitively fewer datable samples were obtained from the southern palaeo channel. In the northern palaeo channel alluvial samples were collected at different depths to have an idea about the age of alluvium as well as the river. Of the total 23 samples that were dated 14C method was followed in 4 samples, TL method in 6 samples and OSL in 13 samples ages were determined.

The alluvium samples of northern palaeochannel were tested at the behest of NIOT by Manipur University. The top alluvium collected just below marine sediment was dated to be around 3000 BP and a slightly lower alluvium gave an age of about 5000 BP. A black alluvium which was somewhat semi consolidated and collected above the river conglomerate gave an age of 19000 BP. Obviously the river has been flowing at least between 19000 years BP, prior to Glacial Maxima and up to 3000 BP. This shows that the palaeo channel in the north was active and a riverine regime existed at least from about 19000 BP. As the area and the palaeo channel to the south was proven to be a hydrocarbon rich zone, several oil and gas producing wells and platforms have been put along with Xmas trees and several oil and gas pipeline are crisscrossing the area. Due to these factors no further sampling than the preliminary one could be undertaken in view of the safety and restrictions in the oil production areas. The water depths of the alluvial samples collected in the northern palaeo channel varied from 20 to 32m.

In the southern township or palaeochannel area six samples suitable for dating were identified. Of these 3 are carbonized wooden samples, one was a sediment sample, one was a fired pottery piece and one was a hearth material. Sample from the same carbonized wood was sent to National Geophysical Research Institute, Hyderabad, India and Geowissenschaftlicte Gemeinschaftsaulguben, Hannover, Germany for Carbon dating. This was the first sample (Location 21o 03.08’ N; 72 o30.83 E) from near the southern palaeochannel. This first gave a clue to the age and environment of the civilization. The calibrated age as per NGRI was 9580-9190 BP and as per Hannover Institute it was 9545-9490 BP. It means the age is about 9500 BP and this takes the age by more than 4000 years older than the oldest city civilization of Mesopotomia and a forerunner to ‘Harappan’ civilization. But this occurred near the top of the stratigraphic column. Because of this it was expected that at the lower levels the age would be much older and make the civilization really an ancient one. The wooden piece tested at Birpal Sani Institute at Lucknow, U.P. state gave a calibrated age of 8450 BP. However, two important artifacts were obtained in the near by area at lower levels. These were a nice, thin, pottery and a brownish to red hearth material. Along with it local clay sediment was also chosen. All the three samples were analysed in the Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmadabad, Gujarat State, using standard Thermoluminescence based pottery dating techniques. As expected the one of the pottery piece whose figure is given, gave a date of 13000 ± 1950 BP. It is an important date. Another pottery piece, which was ill fired, on OSL dating (Location 21 o12.54’ N; 72 o 30.370’ E) by Oxford University gave an age of 16840 ± 2620 BP. These are the oldest fired pottery pieces obtained so far in the world. Till the results were out it was from Japan where the oldest potteries were known. The “Jomon” Pottery from the Fukui cave in Kyushu gave 12000 BP uncalibrated age. The pottery findings from Odai Yamamoto gave uncalibrated age of 13500-13800 BP. In the Gulf of Cambay civilization attempts already appear to have been made in experimental pottery making. These are seen from effects of fired clays (for making pottery), which gave ages of 20130 ± 2170 BP (Location 21 o 13.720’ N; 72 o 26.190’ E) and 16600 ± 1150 BP (Location 21 o13.80 ‘N; 72 o 26.10 E), by OSL as determined by the Oxford University dating lab. The well fired 3 potteries in the northern palaeochannel gave ages of 7506 ± 785 BP, 6097 ± 611 BP (both by Manipur University) and 4330 ± 1330 BP by Oxford University.

Apart from this sun-dried pottery pieces were collected in these areas. Three of the specimens were dated by OSL facility in Oxford. The results obtained are (1) 31270±2050 BP, (2) 25700±2790 BP and (3) 24590±2390 BP. A black slipped dish which was also sun dried was dated in Oxford by OSL. This gave an age of 26710 ± 1950 BP.

The hearth material from the southern township (Location 21o03.04 N 72o30.70 E) by TL dating from PRL, Ahmedabad gave an age of 10000 ± 1500 BP whereas the hearth material near the top in the northern township gave an age of 3530 ± 330 BP by OSL, Oxford University. One of the charcoal pieces obtained on the northern side was tested by 14C dating in BSIP, Lucknow. It gave calibrated age of 3000 BP. It tallies very well with the age of upper most alluvium in northern Palaeochannel.

The wattle and daub materials that were originally of wood and clay were seen to be burnt, but the structure of the wood was well preserved at places (being fossilized). These were tested by OSL at Oxford and by TL at Manipur from the same locations. OSL dating found it to be 5860 ± 720 BP and TL dating determined it to be 5530 ±550 BP. They appear to be a comparatively good match and they reflect the proper ages. They may represent the period at which these structures caught fire.

From the above it is quite clear that the human activity is very evident from about 31000 BP in what is now in the Gulf of Cambay much before the Glacial Maxima at 18000 BP. The ancients were making potteries and were getting them dried initially in the sun. From about 20000 years, it is clear that the ancients are firing the clay to produce pottery. That means they knew how to make, maintain and manage fire. They appear to have succeeded in making fired pottery from about 16800 BP. They knew the art of construction of towns and houses in neat straight line, row after row as picked up by Side Scan Sonar image and wattle and daub structure and from rammed floor. Both the northern and southern townships have continuous habitational sites interspersed with big structures in between. But good quality fired pottery makes it appearance from about 13000 BP. In the southern township (we can call them metropolis) there appears to be organized activity in the form of a community living, a granary (where fossilized food grains were collected), etc., from about 13000 BP. To the south of this township in the Gulf of Cambay, sidescan Sonar picked up a drowned dead coral colony of 400m long and about 200m wide in a water depths of about 40m substantiated later by sampling. It is a well known fact that these corals live in hardly 2 to 3m water depth very near coastal areas. They require clean environment and good sunlight. Obviously the southern metropolis appears to have been near a sea coast at a particular point of time, when the metropolis itself stood on dry land with a good free flowing river and was a major bustling city. The dating of coral colony like other places by drill core will provide the date of beginning of coral build up in the area and the top sample of coral will reveal the age at which it was drowned giving a direct clue to the drowning of southern metropolis. It is worthwhile noting that the datable objects are found has only up to 8450 BP based on the date of the carbonized wood.

The northern metropolis has well made pottery pieces, wattle daub etc. from about 7506 BP onwards. It indicates well organized city living. Hence it is possible that this metropolis came up after 8450 but much before 7506 BP, may be after the submergence of the southern metropolis. The ancients appear to have shifted and founded the northern metropolis. However the various earlier dates from sun-dried pots etc. indicate that it was under constant habitation.

Evidence from Microlithic tools:

Apart from palaeolithic macro tools several pieces of micro tools have been collected. Usage of such tools has been reported in America, Europe and other places. In South America especially from Brazil presence of human beings are reported from 14000 BP, coinciding with big Pleistocene mammals. The study there indicated that between 17000 and 7000 BP most coastal plains have been lost due to sea level rise. Several microlithic tools that were recovered are seen to occur from 10970 BP. But the lagoa santa people occupying these areas in Brazil suddenly disappeared between 8000 and 7000 BP. In Europe in France, Germany, Belgium etc. the microlithic tool period started from 11800 BP taking back the age of the Mesolithic period. The microlithic period spread to several areas and lasted up to the seventh millennium BP.

In the Gulf of Cambay a variety of microlithic tools have been obtained in continuation of late palaeolithic tools. The presence of highly evolved experimental pottery from 13000 BP, organized living, sedentary well planned habitation, advanced sanitary and town planning activities in the southern metropolis indicates that it had developed to be a established civilization from about 13000 BP. Already there were evidences for control of fire, making pottery etc. from about 16840 BP. The southern metropolis so far has provided datable objects up to 8500 BP. The well developed northern metropolis has dates of civilization from about 7506 BP. In this one should take into consideration the ideas given by Graham Hancock who also postulated that several cultures in near coastal areas have been flooded and submerged by rising sea level caused by melting of icecap subsequent to the last iceage. The inundation maps prepared by Dr.Glen Milne of Durham University, England clearly shows that the Gulf of Cambay area prior to 7600 BP was mostly land and after 6900 BP it is mostly submerged. This type of rise in sea level is very much supported by the work of Dr.P.K.Banerjee pertaining to southeast coast of Indi, work of Sahidul Islam and Tooly in the Bay of Bengal in Bangladesh and Sen and Banerji’s work near Calcutta.

The area is highly prone to severe seismicity. In the past 500 years several earthquakes have shaken area, including the major +8 magnitude Richter scale event on 26.1.2001. On 16.1.1819 an 8.3 magnitude event devastated several areas nearby. It is seen that these quakes cause lot of subsidence at places and elevation at other places.

In the Gulf of Cambay itself various surveys have picked up fault zones and earthquake affected areas with throws upto as much as 30m (elevation and depression). The Gulf of Cambay was formed by a major rift. In order to understand the phenomenon and paleo-seismic activity, NIOT, commissioned Dr.Rajendran of CESS, Trivandram to carry out Paleo-seismic studies in the area surrounding Gulf of Cambay. His path-breaking work of identifying paleo-seismic events and dating them with OSL and also dating nearby Organic material has given excellent evidence to support the findings. He could detect the presence of sand blow layers caused due to old earthquakes as well as new ones. His work in peripheral land areas of the Gulf of Cambay like Kathana, Lotal and Motibaur gave evidences of major earthquakes in the Cambay areas in the following period (1) 2780 ± 150 years BP, (2) 3983 ± 150 BP and (3) 7540 ± 130 BP. Herein lies the evidence of the end of the Gulf of Cambay civilization. In the old major event about 7600 or near about the southern metropolis appear to have been thrown down by faulting and the nearby sea appear to have inundated it. Because of this the people appear to have proceeded north in the elevation higher than the sea level and established the 2nd or northern metropolis. This also got affected by faulting due to earth quakes around 4000 BP and destroyed by the 2780 ± 150 BP EQ, by down throwing the metropolis and sea transgressed the area to completely submerge it.

In this connection it is worthwhile pointing it out three important aspects:

The folk songs in local Kachchi dialogue, mention about 4 major towns of ancient past. Three of these have been identified as Mohenjadaro, Harappa and Dholavira. Obviously the fourth one and the biggest of them all and oldest is the Gulf of Cambay metropolis. )

The 2nd aspect is work by other agencies describing small-scale stone ruins near the Gulf of Kuutch, at the present-day town of Dwarka, as the remains of the ancient, fabled city of Dwarka – so well described as the abode of Lord Krishna of Mahabarata fame. The city is said to have been completely transgressed by the sea and this is vividly described by Arjuna, Krishna’s main disciple in the “Mahabaratha Epic”. The puzzling aspect, which is incoherent, is the location of city of Dwaraka. The temple we see today is hardly 900 years old. The area all around is dry, void of vegetation, and with brackish water. Krishna is supposed to have maintained a huge army of men, animals like Elephants, Horses, etc. There are absolutely there are no trees or foliage or fresh water for a big army. So it strikes a discordant note about the location. But the submerged metropolis of the Gulf of Cambay has strong, powerful flowing rivers, lots of trees and foliage and huge township of truly ancient times. So probably the metropolis in the Gulf of Cambay could be the “Dwaraka City” of Mahabarata fame.

The third aspect is to consider what happened when the first and second metropolis got submerged. It is interesting to note that there are about 500 Harappan and pre-harappan settlements in Gujarat of which about 258 are on the peripheral areas of Gulf of Cambay. All of them are younger than the Gulf of Cambay metropolis (southern). To the immediate west of the Gulf of Cambay on the Saurashtra coast is the well known pre-Harappan and Harappan archaeological site of Padri. It has been established by the Deccan College researchers, that the river Chatranji that is now flowing east into the Gulf of Cambay, originally flowed west but was tilted towards the east by large-scale structural changes. By connecting it to the southern palaeo channel and extending it, it is seen that it goes to Prabhaspatten in the Arabian Sea, and Prabhaspatten is a well known pre-harappan archaeological site mentioned in the Mahabharata epic. To the east the Palaeochannel is seen to be an extension of the present day river Tapi. Obviously the river Tapi was flowing right up to Prabhaspattan on the Arabian Sea prior to the drifting and formation of the Gulf of Cambay. It now falls into the Gulf of Cambay instead of the Arabian Sea. The ancients after the catastrophe and submergence in the Gulf of Cambay appear to have spread out all over Gujarat and then to the surrounding areas to establish a continuing and evolving civilization of Harappan type.

So, from the foregoing it is very evident the prehistoric civilization that matured and developed in the present day Gulf of Cambay was the forerunner and model to the subsequent advanced Harrapan civilization known to history. This wonderful twin prehistoric metropolis of Cambay lasted from about 13000 BP to about 3000 BP making it the most ancient and largest city civilization not only in Asia but also in the entire world. It is seen to be at least 7500 years older than the oldest Mesopotamian city civilization. However strong evidence supports the presence of humans from at least 31000 BP who were evolving and developing and formed a great hitherto unknown civilization that were submerged by the flood, giving credence to local and global flood myths.


Bi-Facial Scraper-Upper Palaeolithic

The palaeo channel below the alluvium has hard dark alluvium and then typical river conglomerate (Fig.34). It clearly indicated fresh waters alluvial environment. Several insitu pieces of alluvium and conglomorate have been collected. All these factors clearly establish that the palaeochannels were originally well-flowing rivers in the land, which were subsequently submerged by the sea.

Since some persons have expressed doubts about the pottery pieces, a thorough scientific study was made involving the pottery pieces to establish their authenticity. To determine the properties of various materials including pottery, many samples were subjected to X-Ray diffraction (XRD) analysis. Since the materials that constitute pottery etc are clays and heterogeneous mixures of a variety of materials, these were accordingly analysed. Every area has a special fingerprint pattern in the clay, which can be recognized in X-Ray diffraction (XRD). The above analysis was carried out in Deccan College, Pune Maharashtra state, India, by using an advanced instrument that gave excellent results. The conclusions are that the pattern of pottery pieces corresponds very well with the locally available clay of Gulf of Cambay. The mineral patterns of habitational floor, wattle and daub and land materials (alluvial deposit) are comparable. The patterns of fired clay, floor birck piece, vitrified clay, compare very well. All these indicate that they are genuine artifacts, made from locally available material and are insitu. It fully confirms the presence of archaeological sites. The findings indicate that the pottery was produced locally with levigated clay, fired uniformly at about 700oC. From the presence of calcite in clays and pottery arid to semi-arid environmental conditions prior to the submergence of the site could be deduced. Calcritised alluvial deposits indicate the existence of ancient rivers which once flowed in the submerged regions of Gulf of Camba

http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/cambay.html

Originally posted by Raman


"There has to be some interconnectedness. If this is pre-Harappan"

This demand has already been met as I have explained in  my reply.



Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2012 at 00:30
Originally posted by oxydracae

 
They are dating this as pre-Harappan because then it is easy for them to establish something that is very close to their hearts. They want to say that the Aryans were from India. They want to establish that India was the cradle of civilisation."
 


"From the Himalayas in the north to the Vindhyachala mountains in the south.From the western to the eastern oceans. This is Aryavarta, The Abode of the Arya"
Code of Manu 2.22

I shout out aloud for all to hear.
I speak out what sprouts from my heart and head.
I forcefully assert what the vedas tell me(of tribes expelled from Aryavarta)
I draw the conclusion from literary, geological, genetic, archaeological and astronomical evidence

I say that Aryavarta is the Urmheit .

But Oxy,I keep an open mind. I would gladly renounce this faith of mine if you or anyone else give me any evidence of any entry of any people anywhere into South Asia anytime between 2000 and 1000 BC.

Btw, please note that the word "Arya" is purely sanskrit and was used only in India. Even in Persia , they used a corrupted term " Arrian" . The Mittani Indo Aryans used an even more corrupted term "Hurrian"

Originally posted by oxydracae

 
Jaya Menon, a lecturer in the Department of Archaeology and Ancient History, MS University, Baroda, said "There are two interconnected ideas here. First, the age of the artefact cannot be correlated to the antiquity of the site. Secondly, the material you are dating should be from a secure context. Only then can you consider the information to be reliable. An underwater site is definitely not a secure context unlike an archaeological mound on land."
 



As I once pointed out earlier, some cowards find it easier to reject the site than to confront it like a man.

This is clear evidence of the double standards of proof used for India and the rest favored by you-know-who.

Of this serious loss of scholarship due to double standards, I will rather talk to Red Clay.

http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/bravo619/ThisThread.jpg



Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2012 at 00:45
Originally posted by red clay

The above is an excellant example of why Indian history is in the state that it's in.



Awh come on Clay.....a wonder underwater site aint all that notorious .


Indian civilization is under cultural attack from all sides. I wonder why they hate this mild, peaceful, highly mature and philosophical civilization to have inflicted so much harm on her. Why oh why?


Added to that is the double standards.

To worsen things, look at the atrocious COMPLETE HORSEcrap  taught to millions of innocent Bharatha children

To quote the paper "Distortions in Indian History ".......

  • Distortion of ancient history through the ‘Aryan invasion’ and the Aryan-Dravidian divide, presenting the Vedic Age as an ‘age of conflict’

  • Distortion through portraying the great Saraswathy Civilization as Non Aryan

  • Distortion through the theory that "Islam ruled India for a thousand years".

  • Distortion of the Medieval history, by whitewashing the Islamic record and presenting it as the 'age of synthesis'.

  • Distortion of the period of the Freedom Struggle attributing it to nonviolent struggle , by whitewashing Congress blunders and suppressing the contribution of the revolutionaries, Sardar Patel and Subhas Bose.

  • Double standards of proof, as seen in every page of Indian history.

  • As Swami Vivekananda pointed out more than a century ago:

    "The histories of our country written by English [and other Western] writers cannot but be weakening to our minds, for they talk only of our downfall. How can foreigners, who understand very little of our manners and customs, or religion and philosophy, write faithful and unbiased histories of India? Naturally, many false notions and wrong inferences have found their way into them.

    "Nevertheless they have shown us how to proceed making researches into our ancient history. Now it is for us to strike out an independent path of historical research for ourselves, to study the Vedas and the Puranas, and the ancient annals of India, and from them make it your life's sadhana to write accurate and soul-inspiring history of the land. It is for Indians to write Indian history."

    As Swami Vivekananda pointed out, the goal of the British was to weaken the Indian spirit, particularly the Hindu spirit, because the nationalist movement in India was mainly a Hindu movement. The nationalist movement, which rose to great heights during the Swadeshi Movement following the Partition of Bengal, lost its direction and focus in 1920 when Mahatma Gandhi sacrificed Swaraj for the sake of the Khilafat. This in turn led to the anti-Hindu orientation of the Congress under Jawaharlal Nehru. This was soon joined by the Communists, who worked hand-in-glove with the Congress. The Communists now are little more than camp followers of Sonia Gandhi and her party.

    So it is in the interests of these anti-national forces to keep alive the colonial version of Indian history. Thanks to the domination of the Indian political scene by the Congress, Communist intellectuals and fellow travelers were able to dominate the intellectual scene also. As a result, the colonial version of history continues to be taught in Indian schools and colleges. This has led to gross distortions in the history being taught in Indian schools and colleges.




    Posted By: SuryaVajra
    Date Posted: 06-Aug-2012 at 02:10
    Originally posted by oxydracae


     
    Professor K.V. Raman, former head of the Department of Archaeology, University of Madras, and former Superintending Archaeologist with the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), said "cultures do not exist in isolation. There has to be some interconnectedness. If this is pre-Harappan, then there should be some evidence here of what was to come later. I am really sick of the politicisation of matters like this. It destroys the integrity of my profession."
     



    Oh so he's sick.

    Well, millions of people are beginning to feel sick of a colonial version of history which has already been smashed by hundreds of unbiased scholars both Indian and western, which was written by uneducated, inept, religiously motivated frauds like William Jones and Max Mueller( which I have extensively explained in an earlier post)----serious errors whose hold upon institutions is so strong that it refuses to die despite having been thoroughly disproved from all sides.

    I am sick of such empty aspersions cast by his Ilk.

    I mean how much of a claim upon superiority can the likes of Michael Witzel and K.V Raman make when they dont even dare respond to the great challenging papers by Kazanas and Talageri and answer the questionnaire drawn up by the same, when they all invariably trace their dynasty back to the said Fraud Jones and Mueller?

    What do guys like this offer us but their emotional outbursts like " destroys the integrity of my profession"?? Cry


    They are not worth my time.They dont raise valid evidences to defend their position. THEY JUST MAKE SUCH BOLD DEROGATORY AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.


    The paper "
    Petty Professorial Politicking
    in The Indo-Aryan Controversy" By Koenrald elst
    is a good read on the issue

    Nowadays, some self respecting scholars have started paying back in the same affronting tones wonted by Witzel and his disciples

    "I have never accused Prof. Witzel of deceit or fraud. I prefer to live by Napoleon's dictum: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained through incompetence",-- or in this case, through over-enthusiasm for a long-hoped-for "discovery". When people are very very thirsty, they start to see an oasis on the horizon; no malice intended, just self-delusion. Only, after his innocent mistake had been highlighted, Witzel's reaction was rather unsportsmanlike. He claimed that it was all due to a printing error. That sounds a bit random for such a precise and sensational reading. As if you can put monkeys at a typewriter and let them produce an AIT-friendly translation by coincidence. "--Elst



    "If it is asserted without evidence, we may reject it without evidence"

    Yet, many scholars are willing to fight the mordern version of Indian history ----THOUGH THEY  DONT HAVE TO( considering the fact that the AIT has never been proved in the first place).

    Yet what do they get?....They get insulted and branded as "Hindutva Nationalists". An easy way out for the Witzelian gang.



    Some individuals even here find it helping their cause to accuse me of "Nationalistic fervor"


    I have only one thing to tell such people........

    Whether I am a nationalist or not, whether I am biased or not, whether I eat tooth paste or not , DOES NOT HELP their  CAUSE OF DISPROVING ME.

    Only valid proofs can do that.


    I am really tired of this accusation. So I hereby take to nationalism.  Lets see how it helps my opponents .....lets see how it becomes my undoing....(Though I sincerely dont know what exactly nationalism involves)

    Long live Aryavarta (I hope this is nationalist)
    LOL


    Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
    Date Posted: 06-Aug-2012 at 04:04
    Yup it is.
     
    And you have undoubtedly planned it as such. Once again all you have done is demonstrate your unwillingness to objectively render the courtesy to other posters and the opinions they have rendered you. It is obvious from your tone and your written comments which include the innuendo of 
     
     
    ''As I once pointed out earlier, some cowards find it easier to reject the site than to confront it like a man. This is clear evidence of the double standards of proof used for India and the rest favored by you-know-who. Of this serious loss of scholarship due to double standards, I will rather talk to Red Clay.'' 

     

    ''Some individuals even here find it helping their cause to accuse me of "Nationalistic fervor''.

     
    Consequently your doing nothing more then advancing your personalized Vedic version. Which still remains challenged by numerous SMEs that you personally can't agree with. And that is fine. What isn't is you have now and for the last time... been elucidating in nothing more then an undue fanatic exuberance. (Demonstrated by your excessive posting of dialogue found in your sources when all that was required was to make a link without the unnecessary verbiage....which incidentally is trolling) All of which has passed the bench mark for excessive proselytization and nationalism.
     
    Especially when you vocalize such a dismissive attitude reference the Coc as evidenced by...
     
    I have only one thing to tell such people........

    Whether I am a nationalist or not, whether I am biased or not, whether I eat tooth paste or not , DOES NOT HELP their CAUSE OF DISPROVING ME.

    Only valid proofs can do that.

     
     
     
    You had been warned in house by staff and in open forum reference this. You were given sufficient time to adjust your rhetoric...you did not. Iow. You failed to heed it and now you will reap the consequences.
     
    Hence your on the bench. 
     
    Suspended.
     
     


    -------------
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

    S. T. Friedman


    Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'




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