illegals
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Current Affairs
Forum Discription: Debates on topical, current World politics
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2737
Printed Date: 29-Apr-2024 at 17:07
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: illegals
Posted By: Le Renard
Subject: illegals
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 13:31
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I don't have a problem with legal immigration but when it comes to illegals it I really don't like it. Here in America I feel that for the Mexican/American Border we need to put up a border like the Koreas, tall chain link fence with barbed wire across the top, and guards patroling the fence. But without the guards shooting someone if they get to near. The road issue, only people with valid US picture IDs or a immigration permit are allowed to pas through, after their car has been searched. I personally think that all of the illegal aliens need to be rounded up and taken back to their home land because they are taking advantage of our tax dollers. What is you view on this topic? I am curious. How does your country or you reeact to illegals in your country? I realize this is like the "America's Borders" topic, but i wanted it to be more focused on this topic. ------------- "History repeats itself because nobody listened the first time." |
Replies:
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 14:02
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I raised the issue in the other thread, and I am raising it again:
The U.S. needs slave-labor to function. The closest thing to slave labor is illegal labor. Without illegal labor, many farmers would go out of business and you will be paying seven dollars for each tomato you buy. The government is not going to close the border until there is an alternative source of slave-like labor. Of course we live in a free society, so why not a group of anti-illegal immigrants volunteer to work for 1.50 and hour picking lettuce from sunrise to sunset? This is the salary the market can bear, and your work will do more to stop illegal immigration than any other action. Or you can call your congressperson and annoy them to death about this issue. Enforcement will come from Washington, not from the border. You should have a better chance of doing it now than before: The Republican White House and Congress are on your side, aren't it? ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 18:33
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I thought I covered this on America's borders but here are some good links to support strong borders. I do support legal immigration from Canada and Mexico but all illegals should be deported, with a few exceptions. I do not care if they are from Germany, Greece or Japan. In the 1990's there was a number of illegal immigrants from Ireland and this made me upset, I have Irish ancestry. At the time I felt they should be deported but I hear things are much better in Ireland now, they have their own illegal alien problem now. Maybe someday Americans will be sneaking into Mexico for jobs, fate can change in strange ways.
http://www.therothshow.com/ You can listen to her archive for past guests on this topic. http://www.fairus.org/ http://www.numbersusa.com/ Robert Vasquez - http://www.pan2004.com http://frostywooldridge.com/ http://www.sharethetruth.info/ see recent article today on www.jihadwatch.org 03/28/05 |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 20:58
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illegal immigrants pour into New England from Europe to this day yet they dont care. SO either the US is racist against only Mexican immigrants or New Englanders are just more tolerant people. Either way Im for whatever is good for the economy, and that is to have illegals coming in and working at jobs. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 05:14
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We already have a topic on this subject: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2373&PN=1&TPN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2373& ;PN=1&TPN=1 ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 19:21
Does this include these aliens!! 
planet X 
multi tasked!! |
Posted By: white dragon
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 20:06
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------------- Pray as if everything depended upon God and work as if everything depended upon man. -Francis Cardinal Spellman |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2005 at 03:29
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America is not the only country being flooded with illegal immigrants!! It is also a real probelem in Japan, Malayasia and Europe. It will only get worse and I strongly believe any of these nations have the right to protect their borders, langauge and culture by deporting illegal immigrants. Forgot Australia to!!!
Greece would be doing the right thing by deporting them. http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurdistanobserve/7-11-01-reu-g reece-may-deports-illegal-refugees.html Greece considers deporting 1,000 illegal refugees ATHENS, Nov 6 (Reuters) - Greece on Tuesday was considering deporting about 1,000 mostly Kurdish would-be immigrants whose ship was found drifting near the Ionian islands on Monday. "We are considering the issue of their reintegration into their country of origin," government spokesman Christos Protopappas told reporters. "I don't think they are political refugees." On Monday the Greek coastguard towed the 50-metre (160-ft) Turkish-flagged vessel to the port of Zakynthos after fire damaged its engines during a storm. Authorities said it was probably on its way to Italy. A number of the women and children from the vessel were treated for minor injuries, exhaustion and dehydration at health centres at the port and elsewhere on the island. "Some of them are very exhausted. They don't seem to have eaten in the past four or five days," a local doctor said. The other immigrants remained on board. Local authorities were considering temporarily housing some or all of the group in a sports hall. Merchant Marine Minister Giorgos Anomeritis arrived in Zakynthos on Tuesday to assess the situation. This year Greece has detained over 5,000 illegal immigrants, more than 100 suspected people-smugglers and 83 vessels involved in ferrying illegal immigrants. 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2005 at 11:05
Australia has no borders  unless you count naval ones ------------- |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 11:27
How does my country react to illegal alliens ? Let's see, we granted land to them, we asked them to be catholics, do not continue with the slavery, pay taxes, become mexican citizens and learn spanish. In exchange, they revolted agaisnt the country that gave them an opportunity. Opportunity that they did not had at their country. Yes, let's deport all the illegal alliens starting with Austin, Houston and the others who took advantage of the the empresario program. Let's deport all the illegal alliens starting 1492. How's that ? |
Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 11:48
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LoL Jalisco, u hit it right there!
------------- "I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon" 
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 14:44
You have a valid point but remember the Apache Indians saw the Spanish and Mexican also as invaders. If you know anything about the Apaches they were a constant war with the Spanish and Mexicans. At first they wanted the Americans as allies but eventually realized that the Anglos were also coming to occupy their land and rightfully made war on Americans. Now, the Pueblo and Hopi claim they were here before the Apache, Navajo or Mexicans. I can say the Greeks were in Anatolia before the Turks but like America Turkey is a sovereign nation so the borders should be respected and America has the right to deport illegal immigrants. I strongly support legal immigration but Mexico, maybe Canada to-lol When I lived in Walla Walla I had several Mexican friends who worked up from the feilds to a career or their own buisness. They originally came here legally and I respected their success. I have known Mexican Americans who feel the same way I do about illegal immigration that I do. I wish we lived in a perfect world! I think Mexico should give us oil to help pay for the costs of illegal immigrants. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 15:12
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I don't understand the "I'm not against immigrant as long as they're
legal" argument. If illegals are illegal, that's just because we call
them illegal. If you simply loosen the laws there will be less illegal
immigration, since it's easier to immigrate legally
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Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 16:17
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I think Mexico should give us oil to help pay for the costs of illegal immigrants. [/QUOTE] You wish.
There are more benefits than cost associated. Who do you think supports the California's economy ? Do you really believe that movies are the real profit for the 5th largest world economy ? History is cyclic. You should know it. Anyways, the immigration ( legal or not ) to the USA will continue like it or not. Get real. Everything is about economy. Otherwise, what do you really think that stops to the White House from seal the borders ?  
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Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 16:40
yep yep yep
------------- "I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 20:57
You wish.
There are more benefits than cost associated. Who do you think supports the California's economy ? Do you really believe that movies are the real profit for the 5th largest world economy ?[/QUOTE] numberusa has all the stats about the cost of illegal immigrants. True agriculture is the #1 industry in California and even Washington State. I realize we benefit from migrant workers. It is also true that it cannot be totally stopped but it can be curtailed a lot by enforcing the laws on the books and going after the employers with heavy fines and jail time. But, it will not happen because big business has Bush in their pocket. Bush is a good man but does he really call the shots, no!! Like I said America is not the only country with illegal immigrants. When I was in Greece I saw illegals from all over the world. Made me upset to be honest and the Greeks or any European nation has the right to protect their borders, language and culture by deporting them. Greece is doing well economically but still they have few resources and cannot keep absorbing illegal immigrants from all over; borders, language and culture. The problem is that Greece has caved in from pressure by so-called left-wing human rights groups and they have given the illegals amnesty two or three times. The more they grant amnesty the more illegals will pour into Greece or Europe. History is cyclic. You should know it. Anyways, the immigration ( legal or not ) to the USA will continue like it or not. Get real. Everything is about economy. I do not oppose immigration but speaking of history remember what the Germanic invasion into the Roman Empire eventually did to the west half of the Roman Empire! Otherwise, what do you really think that stops to the White House from seal the borders? They won't but we can pressure them to. They are suppose to represent us but if Jeb Bush runs for President this will be an issue. I think the lack of effort by George Bush and the Terry Shivao incident will cost Jeb the Chance to win the primary. I am a cynic when it comes to politicians!! lol
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Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 22:20
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Breaking news.... Jeff Bush is governor of an hispanic state as Florida. Plus, he's married with a Mexican woman....
you see why our constitution forbiden someone married with a foreigner to occupy important posts 
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Posted By: Vamun Tianshu
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 02:20
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Yes,I have to have Goerge Bush as President of the country I live in,and I have his brother as governor of the state I live in.Pft,but he aint as bad as George.In the terms of Illegals,I heard from a friend in Arizona that the Spanish Population,regardless of illegal Mexican or legal other Spanish,,is being treated kinda badly.My friend is Spanish and the doctors refused medical treatment,and she had all the proper things to get medical attention.It was because she was Spanish. Now,Americans on the borders will do almost anything to trespassers,maybe even kill.That is not right. ------------- 
In Honor |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 10:11
Why did the country elect such a pushover, then? The country elects a weak-minded, easily corruptible president, and these are the consequences. Leaky borders everywhere. As I said before, get patriots to pick oranges, lettuce, and garlic in he fields of California for $2.15 an hour. That will surely close the borders. ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2005 at 19:41
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Kerry is no better but I am starting to believe it is whoever the elite want in office, maybe I listen to coast to coast too much!!
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Posted By: RED GUARD
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2005 at 20:20
Whoa, slow down a minute. A broder defense like the treacherous DMZ in the Korean broders would be way to costly. Plus, aren't Mexico and the US economic allies? ------------- Quotes by your's turly: "I came, I saw, and I conquered... but only for the weekend" "This is my tank, this is my weapon, and this is my pride." "Power comes from a barrel of a gun." |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 08:50
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yes, but the USA appear to think that a free trade area is in fact a
"Don't let Mexicans into our counties because they should work in
factories we built just over the border because of the cheap labor and
relaxed laws" area
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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 10:44
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I don't think many U.S. businessmen have a problem with cheap labor in the U.S. It is a sector of the conservative population that is obsessed with this problem. As far as I know, there are two main kinds of anti-illegal alien activist:
a) The ones bothered by the costs of illegal aliens b) The ones afraid of a cultural/ethnic “conquest” The ones who are bothered by the costs believe that someone is taking away their tax money. They believe that the nation is spending more money on welfare, medical, and educational services than it is benefiting from their labor. This is simply not true. Illegal aliens are not eligible for welfare, there is minimal health care benefits for them, usually just pre-natal care, and they contribute to local taxes through sale’s tax and rent payments to pay for school services. Most Mexicans go back to Mexico for medical care anyway, legal or illegal. Also, these people never take into account how much more expensive the cost of living would be without these workers. Every sector that uses illegal aliens would pass the higher costs of business to customers. Meat, fruit, and vegetables would be much more expensive for certain. And I mean a lot. If a farmer is currently paying 2.50 an hour for picking fruit, how much would you pay for strawberries if they had to pay workers 6.25 an hour? The one’s afraid of cultural “conquest” are xenophobes/racists who have learned to veil their bigotry by talking about “illegal aliens.” Recently, they are hiding behind the threat of terrorism. Notice how they are so focused on the Mexican border. They are not fretting about the more porous Canadian one. They barely care about seaports. They are not as worried about airport security. Notice how they are not demonstrating at airports or at harbors. Instead, they form posses of vigilantes to “protect” the Mexican border. I will remind these people that the 9-11 hijackers came to the country with legal visas in airplanes. If you listen to the xenophobic/racists long enough, their true fears come up quickly. They complain that the “illegal aliens” do not learn English, do not want to assimilate, and that they may want to “re-conquer” the Southwest for Mexico. Anyone who knows anything about Mexican illegal alien life knows that none of these are true. Illegal aliens tend to learn English faster and push their children to assimilate quickly. Some of them forbid them to speak in Spanish. The goal is to pass as a legal resident or American-born person to avoid being identified and deported. The re-conquest claim is so funny. They are escaping from Mexico. They didn’t risk their lives and live under constant anxiety so that they can live under the same government they were trying to run away from. It is obvious that these xenophobes/racists are projecting their generational guilt onto Mexicans. Because all of the accusations against “illegal aliens” were what their Americans forefathers did to take over the whole West. They would illegal swarm a territory, refuse to learn the local language to assimilate to the native population, be it French-speaking, Native-American, or Mexican, and then turn around and declare the land theirs. In other words, they are afraid that Mexicans are doing the same slimy trick that they pulled on everyone else. ------------- |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 10:54
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Hugo: have you ever seen the Frijolero clip from Molotov ? Warning: the clip contains lyrics. http://www.phrozenflame.com/flashclip/82 |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 14:55
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So, the first incident and these vigilantes are already Abu-Ghraibing. Nothing like humilliating photos of an illegally restrained human being to lighten up a family dinner. Bush and Rumsfeld must be proud: regular Americans are following their footsteps! Did they also go to the "Ronald Rumself" School for Human Rights and Civil Liberties?
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 20:25
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This was on coast to coast am - late night radio with George Noorey. www.coasttocoastam.com
They are not vigilantes but just average Americans but they were carefully screened. Only one in five had firearms. If you consider the gangs and drug runners that is not many. I hate the way President Bush and the media had tried to demonize them. I support them and I would join them if I could. The Arizona militia wanted to join up with the minute men but they refused the offer. http://www.minutemanproject.com/ The MinuteMan Project is actively monitoring our border! Stay tuned to this website for current information, photos, and media information. Due to the success of our project, we are swamped with media calls - one every few minutes. It is important that we respond to these queries - we are making every attempt to respond to all media requests. We are also updating the website with limited internet access. Therefore, updates will be somewhat terse. We apologize for this, but we are doing the best we can. April 4th. Border monitoring officially began. Hundreds of volunteers are now monitoring the border. A number of illegal aliens already have been reported to the Border Patrol. A group of 18 were encountered and reported to the border patrol. Earlier this weekend, an illegal alien from Guatemala stumbled into the bible camp where the MMP is operating. He inadvertently wandered into the hornets' nest, but it turned out to be his lucky day. He was tired and dehydrated and MMP volunteers gave him medical attention, food and drink before the Border Patrol was able to arrive. April 2nd and 3rd. Massive rallys were held at the Naco and Douglas Border Patrol stations, Arizona, in support of our Border Patrol agents. Hundreds and hundreds showed up at these rallys to support our hard working Border Patrol agents and to show extreme dissatisfaction with our government's open borders policy. Practically every state in the Union was represented by activists who travelled thousands of miles to participate in the rallys and MinuteMan Project. View photos of the rallys. April 1, 2005. Volunteer orientation and a major news conference were held in Tombstone, Arizona. Introductory remarks were given by Chris Simcox and Jim Gilchrest (MMP organizer), Congressman Tom Tancredo (R-CO, Chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus), Bay Buchanan (TeamAmerica PAC), Frosty Wooldridge (author), and Mark Edwards (KDWN-AM 720, Las Vegas, NV). The hall was filled to capacity - several orientation sessions had to be held to accommodate all of the volunteers, which continued to arrive throughout the day. The news conference was attended by a large number of the media. You can view photos of the day's events, and listen to an mp3 audio recording of Congressman Tom Tancredo's hard-hitting and moving keynote speech. "If the politicians can't read the polls, maybe they can read our lips: SECURE OUR BORDERS NOW!" |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 22:47
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The definition of a vigilante is an schmoe that decides to "police" without actually belonging to any legitimate police force.
The minute-vigilante posse fit the definition perfectly. They are adults who want to play "cops" with their guns. They have total contempt for the law, no matter how much they claim to support it. If they really back the Border Patrol, why can't they pack their stuff and go, as the Border Patrol has requested? Of course, they won't get to patrol the desert and threaten already scared human beings. If they leave, the power trip for these bigoted vigilantes would be over. Just like the Abu-Ghraib sadists, these people are a caricature of Americans. Their values run counter to those of the country. They attempt to hide their sins by wrapping themselves around the flag. They should be ashame of themselves. Eaglecap, you really don't belong with this crowd. ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 00:22
Yes! I do!! If I was not in this certification program I would be down there but I would leave my guns home. The majority of the country agrees with them and I know even some liberals who support their actions. I respect your views but I do not think you would like Spokane because it is well over 60% conservative. Abu-Ghraib sadists- no comparison and speaking of Abu Ghraib!! What happened there pales compared to what they terrorist do to their victims. Look at the savage nation web site and see graphic examples. I heard on the news they put a shirt on a half-naked immigrant and gave him $20- oh how shameful!!! go, as the Border Patrol has requested? The average border patrol man or woman is very thankful and they support the minute man, they are thankful for the help. It is the Bush controlled Border Patrol administration who opposes the minute men. They are not breaking the law and they are operating within their constitutional rights. If Bush would enforce our existing laws and protect our borders then there would be no need for the minutemen. Only one in five have guns and it is their second amendment right!! With the drug runners and gangs who have threatened the Minute Men, I cannot blame them. This is mostly a protest against Bush because it is the government’s constitutional duty to protect our borders. You have seen the statistics about the cost of illegal immigration and the disease threat they pose. These are only my opinions and I respect yours!! |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 10:02
Eaglecap, you don’t belong with this crowd because you have interest and respect for other cultures. As far as I know, you are not a psycho wanting to power trip other people. If my having a good impression of you is offended you, I am sorry. I hold Americans to a high standard. You know why? Because I believe we are the good guys. No matter how atrocious our enemies are, we will never stoop to their level. Those who do, betray American principals. Telling me that terrorist do worse things does not impress me. The terrorists are the bad guys. They are not going to respect any principal or law. They are morally bankrupted. Trying to explain away the horrible acts of torture and abuse that Pentagon encouraged on the basis that terrorists do worse things is morally abhorrent. Aren’t they the bad guys because they do these horrible things? Aren’t we the good guys because we don’t? Defenders of the Abu-Ghraib practices show as much contempt for the law as the minute-vigilante posse. They both believe is fine to violate the civil and human rights of their perceived enemies. As far as I understand it, ignoring the law is not an American value. You claim that this group is protesting Bush. Bush lives in Washington, not at the border. The minute-vigilante posse illegally arrested a person. While under their power, they forced him to wear a t-shirt with a humiliating sign and pose for “funny” photos. This man probably feared for his life. He had no option but to comply with their demands. This is no different from having an American kidnapped person being forced to give anti-American speeches. But somehow it is fine because the vigilante posse let him keep the t-shirt and give him $20. How generous! I want to see how happy you are if a group of private citizens with guns did the same to you. P.S. I respect your opinions. As far as I know, I never said that you are not entitled to hold or express them. But the fact that you can hold and say an opinion doesn’t mean that you won’t have to live to the consequences and reaction from your opinions. You should be familiar with the sentiment above. It is often expressed in right-wing radio show. ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 15:16
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Eaglecap, you don’t belong with this crowd because you have interest and respect for other cultures. As far as I know, you are not a psycho wanting to power trip other people. If my having a good impression of you is offended you, I am sorry.
No you have not offended me at all and I highly respect your free thought I hold Americans to a high standard. You know why? Because I believe we are the good guys[\b]. No matter how atrocious our enemies are, we will never stoop to their level. Those who do, betray American principals. Telling me that terrorist do worse things does not impress me. The terrorists are the bad guys[\b]. They are not going to respect any principal or law. They are morally bankrupted. Trying to explain away the horrible acts of torture and abuse that Pentagon encouraged on the basis that terrorists do worse things is morally abhorrent. Aren’t they the bad guys because they do[\b] these horrible things? Aren’t we the good guys because we don’t? I agree with this and they should have gotten jail time but I thought 15 years was extreme. They always shaft the little guy. Defenders of the Abu-Ghraib practices show as much contempt for the law as the minute-vigilante posse. They both believe is fine to violate the civil and human rights of their perceived enemies. As far as I understand it, ignoring the law is not an American value. You claim that this group is protesting Bush. Bush lives in Washington, not at the border. But he has the authority to do something about it but I think we all know he is bought out by Corp interests. The government has sent an additional 500 border guard so it is having some effect. The minute-vigilante posse illegally arrested a person. While under their power, they forced him to wear a t-shirt with a humiliating sign and pose for “funny” photos. This man probably feared for his life. He had no option but to comply with their demands. I agree with you because they are not suppose to encounter the illegals in any way but only act as support to the border patrol. They should not have not this but are you sure it was the Minute Men or another group claiming to be part of the project. This is no different from having an American kidnapped person being forced to give anti-American speeches. But somehow it is fine because the vigilante posse let him keep the t-shirt and give him $20. How generous! I want to see how happy you are if a group of private citizens with guns did the same to you. I am not entering a country illegally but with the incident over the t-shirt I know how the liberal media blows things out of proportion. I have worked as a reporter. If this was the minute men then it would upset me because they are not supposed to encounter illegals. If they on purpose humiliated the man then they are in the wrong but this is only one incident. If I returned to Greece and worked illegally, even though I'm half Greek, I should be deported. P.S. I respect your opinions. As far as I know, I never said that you are not entitled to hold or express them. But the fact that you can hold and say an opinion doesn’t mean that you won’t have to live to the consequences and reaction from your opinions. I never thought that and I try to be open minded to your thoughts, but if we do not do something about this border situation then we and are children will pay the price. You should be familiar with the sentiment above. It is often expressed in right-wing radio show. PS you are right I am a strong supporter of immigration and I do not care were someone is from or what there culture is. America is the great melting pot and I enjoy the contributions other cultures make. This has nothing to do with race or culture but anyone who enters the U.S. illegally should be deported unless they can prove their life truly is in peril. I know I live in an area that is 90% white but the college has more diversity and I really enjoy it. Like I have posted before, I have been upset when I heard about illegals from Ireland. I also remember being upset when I met a German and heard about an Australian and Russian who had stayed past their visa. I wanted to turn them in but I was not sure who to call so I let it go. The Aussie lived next to my friend and he had a job, illegally!! I do not support any abuse of anyone though but time will tell. If things turn out that way then they will lose my support. |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 16:09
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Sections in your latest post confirms my high opinion of you. Believe me, these people are not nice people.
As I said before, there is nothing wrong with wanting to enforce immigration laws. My main problem is with the methods of these vigilantes. ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 02:33
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It has never been about race but the need to regluate immigration and part of it is enviromental. I have deep conserns about the enviroment and wildlife habitat destruction. If I was a racist towards Mexicans I would be betraying my little friends who think highly of me; Brittany 11 and Jacob 7, they are both half Mexican. I am far from perfect but I am accepting of others. Those kids don't have dads and I visit them once in a while when I am in Spokane. I will keep an eye on the minute men and if they mistreat people in anyway they will lose my support. As a ex reporter I know how wth media can exaggerate things but they are not always wrong.
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Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 11:54
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Here's our experience with the immigration: Source: http://www.oas.org/juridico/english/ortize.html GUATEMALAN REFUGEES IN MEXICO: A HAPPY ENDING by Luis Ortiz Monasterio The case of Mexico may be of special interest when studying the issues of asylum and sanctuary, as this country has practised the different forms of these humanitarian procedures in both a universal and a regional context. For diverse historical reasons, and especially in the present century, successive Mexican governments have had the custom of offering sanctuary, or asylum as it is known internationally - an eminently Latin American procedure. In the strict sense of the word - protection of the rights of those who, fleeing intolerance, take refuge in our territory - this first occurred during the dark days of the war between Mexico and the United States, exactly 150 years ago. During the difficult peace treaty negotiations, the Mexican delegation had indisputable instructions: they should not sign the treaty unless there was a guarantee that slavery would not be imposed on the recently conquered territories. This explains Article 2 of the Mexican constitution that says textually: "Slavery is forbidden in the United States of Mexico. Foreign slaves who enter national territory will automatically obtain their freedom and be protected by the laws of the land." Although, to an uninformed reader, this article might seem to be an archaism, it is not. With regard to diplomatic asylum, Mexico not only took part in the codification of the three inter-American conventions presently in force (La Havana 1928, Montevideo 1933 and Caracas 1954), but has applied these instruments, in the context of both individual and mass asylum. During the decades of political instability in Latin America, the procedure of diplomatic asylum successfully achieved its goal by saving the lives and liberty of a considerable number of activists who approached our diplomatic missions. The Mexican Embassy in La Havana in the 1960s witnessed the most notable cases of massive diplomatic asylum as a result of the suspension of relations between all the countries of the Americas and the island of Cuba. The Mexican government inherited almost one thousand people who had sought asylum in the embassies of other countries. In the history of Mexico, there have been five cases of asylum being granted on a massive scale: 1. As a result of the Spanish civil war: 76,000. Middle and end of the 1930s. 2. Following the exodus caused by McCarthyism in the United States. End of the 1940s. 3. Chile. Beginning of the 1970s. 4. Originated by the civil war in El Salvador: 180,000. End of the 1970s. 5. Resulting from the counter-insurgency war in Guatemala: 80,000. Beginning of the 1980s. This paper is devoted to the case of the Guatemalan refugees who arrived in Mexico in the 1980s, because of the high degree of vulnerability of the groups, mainly composed of Indians, because of their topographical location in the jungles of Chiapas and because of their geographical proximity to the zone of conflict. The presence and the treatment of the Guatemalan refugees in Mexico put to the test not only the deep-rooted tradition of non-devolution but also, at least in the case of Mexico, allowed the accumulation of a vast experience of innovations in the successful treatment of this complex phenomenon. The aim of this paper is to document an exemplary case. Even under extremely adverse conditions, it is possible to endeavour, with relative success, not only to receive refugees but also to prepare them for eventual repatriation. There is no exile without an eventual return. When the first Guatemalan refugees arrived in Mexico on May 11, 1981, at the Ejido Arroyo Negro in Campeche, a process was unleashed that continues to this day. The arrival of the first 470 refugees from La Caoba was a clear symptom of the beginning of a new strategy in the Guatemalan counter-insurgency war: destruction of the land. Most countries do not feel totally secure when one of their borders adjoins a civil war. Least of all when groups tend to cross that border as part of the military strategy. Although Mexico had experienced its own revolution, the geographical remoteness of its southern border had resulted in a sharp dichotomy: the revolution had never reached Chiapas. It was evident that federal and state authorities were apprehensive about the contagious nature of Central American civil wars. The Mexican armed forces, knowing full well the border situation, looked with misgiving on the possibility of becoming involved with either the Guatemalan rebels or their adversaries, the Guatemalan army and its elite troops, the "Kaibiles". The case under analysis precisely illustrates the saying that, if anything bad is going to happen, it will happen at the worst moment. The main body of the groups of Quiche Indians arrived at the Puerto Rico Camp at the very same time as the 1982 devaluation and the now legendary debt crisis. Evidently, this was not the optimum moment to win the support of public opinion. Moreover, the Mexican media, with honorable exceptions, expressed great reluctance to involve Mexico in a war that was felt to be far away and completely alien. Seventy thousand Guatemalan Indians, most of them women and children, divided the opinions of the Mexican authorities. After prolonged negotiations, a consensus was reached and common sense reigned: the refugees would be received, not in camps, but in settlements that they themselves could choose. In traumatic sessions, headed by the Minister of the Interior, policies were designed that ended up being enormously beneficial, not only to the refugees, but also to Mexican indian populations of the same ethnic origin. I would like to underline one of these policies, in particular: respect for the integrity of the community. Promotion of the establishment of settlements by village of origin ensured that the unit of traditional authority within a community was preserved; thus the refugees were given a basis for self-government. These directives were very effective in avoiding bureaucratization of the operations of medical, food and educational assistance. The meagre budget of the Mexican Commission for Refugees would not have allowed them to have a presence in each of the settlements. A system of self-regulation of food and assistance was allowed, reposing on the traditional organization of the indian communities, according to which the authority of the elders is supreme. In the same sessions, it was agreed to accept the presence of the United Nations in the conflict zone. In 1981, the government of Mexico and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) signed the Agreement allowing the UNHCR to set up its offices (el Convenio de Sede). The Organization's presence and accumulated experience were an essential part of the effort to understand the phenomenon and systematize aid. The UNHCR was a first-hand witness to the way in which the refugee problem was brought under control, triggering a new human rights culture. The consequences within the non-governmental organizations (NGOs), which emerged in the heat of the conflict, remain to be studied. Relations between the UNHCR and the Mexican authorities were exceedingly complex. Although an understanding was reached with the Mexican Commission for Refugees (COMAR), natural differences stemmed from a different perception of very delicate issues relating to sovereignty. The dispute centered on the level of presence of the United Nations. The last thing that the COMAR wanted was a Blue Berets scenario. If the truth be told, the humanitarian organization, which has twice been awarded the Nobel Prize, showed en enormous amount of flexibility and understanding with regard to Mexico's particularities in this area. A directive which contradicted its usual norms was the key to the success of the programmes with Mexico: to accept the establishment of projects, even though the refugees were not classified as such, because the figure of refugee did not exist under Mexican legislation. The UNHCR's acceptance that resources for the refugees could also be used for the attention of Mexican populations neighbouring on the settlements, is evidence of an international bureaucracy that is able to adapt to the most diverse challenges in the field. An anonymous admirer of the United Nations put it this way: "Tape at the United Nations is blue rather than red." Nonetheless, an evident point of friction between the UNHCR and the Mexican Government was the issue of temporality. In this case, the Mexican administration were concerned that the principle of "there is nothing more definitive than that which is temporal" would take effect; while, from the point of view of the United Nations, a mechanism was necessary that guaranteed a certain degree of integration. In the long run, and with the passage of time, this complex phenomenon has without doubt had a happy ending. Voluntary repatriation has permitted about 35,200 Guatemalans to return home. This represents nearly 50% of the refugee population that entered Mexico 15 years ago. During the next 12 months, 14,000 more are expected to return to Guatemala. The Guatemalan Government has established an office to facilitate repatriation, attached to its Consulate in Comitan, Chiapas. Fifty-two per cent of the refugee population remaining in the camps were born in Mexico and are thus Mexican by right of birth and Guatemalan by jus saguinis (right of blood). In recognition of the interests of families that wish to remain in Mexico, our Government has offered those Guatemalan refugees who married Mexican nationals, or who have children born in Mexico, the option of applying for naturalization, on a preferential basis. Some refugees have preferred to remain in Mexico as immigrants - or non-immigrants, in the case of those who hope to return to Guatemala eventually. While the process to resolve the refugee phenomenon is being completed through both repatriation and assimilation, the work of assistance will continue with the invaluable support of the UNHCR. Educational coverage is provided to the whole school-age population. Refugees enjoy the same level of welfare as their Mexican neighbours. The arrival of the Guatemalan refugees not only enriched Mexico with the contribution of outstanding descendants of the Mayas. Their sudden advent also triggered permanent dynamics in the context of the emergence of a robust civil society in contemporary Mexico. As public opinion learned about this at-risk group, a remarkable current of solidarity arose. International and national agencies started to materialize, some born in the heat of the refugee problem. The phenomenon attained such dimensions that the COMAR authorities devoted more time to attending the NGOs than the refugees themselves. In the long term, these events resulted in the blossoming of a strong and welcome NGO movement that today forms the backbone of the movement for civilian monitoring of human rights. Civilian personalities such as Adolfo Aguilar Zinzer, Sergio Aguayo and Oscar Gonzalez, President of the Mexican Academy of Human Rights, emerged from those times. During the time of confusion, coordination between NGOs, sympathetic journalists and public officials committed to the principle of asylum resulted in the establishment of a network of solidarity in favour of the refugees. Following arduous negotiations and numerous congressional audiences, this same combination of forces obtained the reform of the Ley General de Población in order to recognize the figure of the refugee. The result was a very clear message - for the first time in the history of Mexico's Congress, an initiative originating from the NGO community was approved by all parties and all members. This event, which might appear symbolic, convincingly demonstrated that Mexicans may be divided on many issues, but not on that of asylum. Another of the elements that turn the sanctuary offered to the Guatemalan Indians into a source of lasting lessons is the promotion of the self-esteem of the refugees. Without doubt, no one on the face of the earth is as dispossessed as a refugee, especially if he is an indian on foreign soil. Thanks to a fortunate convergence of resolve and resources, recovery of the archeological ruins at Edzna was implemented with the refugees in the state of Campeche. The underlying principle was simple: recover Mayan ruins with Mayan hands. The physical result is there to be seen. A small but magnificent plaza of the Classical period together with a majestic pyramid that were buried for centuries have been recovered and will enhance the patrimony of both Mexico and the world. But the spiritual result was even greater. Nothing has remained of the timid refugee, humiliated and displaced from his ancestral community. Following the handing over of the first stage of the recovery work, the refugees recovered their pride and their sense of belonging to a robust culture of builders and astronomers. The motor force generated by this return to their roots could well explain their successful exile on Mexican soil and their surprising re-insertion in today's Guatemala. Depending on how it is handled, an event such as the one we have described can be either a social catastrophe or a controlled phenomenon. In the case of refugees, all governments, and especially security forces, imagine they are faced with a Lebanon in their own backyard. The key to the judicious handling of a socio-political conflict of these dimensions consists in information. Common sense recommends that, from the outset, the event should be de-dramatized. Exaggerated terminology should be avoided and the conflict should be reduced to a simple occurrence. Despite internal economic problems, public opinion in Mexico was very open to the analogy between the country's northern and southern borders. A growing interest in Mexican migrations to the United Stated can be perceived in Mexico. These began 150 years ago when the first Mexicans settled there, following the loss of over 2 million square kilometers of Mexican territory. By underlining the moral force which was acquired by accepting and helping refugees from the south, the Government gained, if not overwhelming enthusiasm, at least acquiescent tolerance, and so the issue of the Guatemalan refugees did not divide the country. A low informational profile allowed almost 200,000 urban Salvadorean refugees, installed in the Valley of Mexico, to remain unnoticed by the major organs of the press and to be accepted by the more modest communities of Mexico City. They have been in Mexico for almost ten years and, during all this time, there has never been a case of a Mexican reporting a Salvadorean for questions relating to immigration. CONCLUSIONS 1. Migrations are the circulatory system of history. Migration is not a pathology. Any static conception of demography is condemned to failure. Barriers, swift-flowing rivers, ramparts and walls have failed. The last of these fell in Brandenburg, chipped away stone by stone. 2. Although Mexico has never had a policy of attracting new immigrants, its historical experience has persuaded it not to shut its doors to those persecuted by intolerance, whether they be Leon Trotsky, Jose Marti or Hollywood filmmakers persecuted by McCarthy. Spaniards, Levantines and Latin Americans have all received the protection not only of the Mexican State but especially of its citizens. 3. Mexico does not consider that granting asylum is a burden. In the long term, it has been extremely beneficial for its institutions. The Spanish migration left a lasting impression in the fields of business and the academy. The North American asylum-seekers, mainly filmmakers, are closely linked to the cinematography boom known as the Golden Age. The modest Quiche Guatemalans have left us the recovered ruins of Edzna in Campeche as a heritage. Moreover, Guatemalan refugees contributed 12% of the total harvest during the 1996 agricultural cycle in that state. 4. In order to deal successfully with the massive arrival of refugees, it is most important to work towards achieving a favourable Government consensus. 5. The presence of a highly specialized international organization should be nuanced by the cultural, historical and political characteristics of the host territory. Guatemalan refugees cannot be treated in the same way as Ugandan refugees. The United Nations process should always be subordinate to local sensitivities. 6. It is advisable not to locate refugee settlements in the proximity of border zones where there is a conflict. Military temptations that could attract hostile consequences and that denaturalize asylum are avoided by removing settlements from the scene of operation. 7. One of the requirements of a really successful refugee policy is that, at no time, should the phenomenon be used for political or propaganda purposes. The use and abuse of human rights throughout the world has denaturalized their humanitarian essence. 8. Today, there is an urgent need to give greater importance to those countries that receive refugees. Some of us feel that humanitarian organizations are more inclined to highlight the work of donor countries than that of the countries who are faced with the real problem in their own territory; very often in dangerously tense border zones. Countries that receive refugees know that one day they will receive the visit of the High Commissioner. 9. A format that not only permits preservation of the principle of non-intervention but which also facilitates and depressurizes the refugee phenomenon is the principle that the state which receives refugees should not judge the causes of the phenomenon in the country of origin. 10. The venerable institution of asylum works the miracle of converting those who are persecuted into citizens. |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 18:12
It is not about ethnicity with you, but I bet that it is for them. That is my conclusion that I have drawn from hearing right-wing radio. One time I heard them talk about seeing "illegal aliens" speaking Spanish on the streets of their cities. They went on and one about how much they disliked them because they refused to assimilate. Well, there is no way to tell if someone is an illegal alien or not. These were Mexicans. They were upset because they were speaking Spanish. That is the bottom line. You know that these kind of conversations on right-wing radio are common since you listen to them more than I do. These bigots learned that they can hide their ethnic hatred by calling people "illegal aliens," but for most of them it is all about not wanting Mexicans around. That is why I feel that you don't belong among these people. You respect other cultures, and you care about really care immigration laws, unlike these other people. ------------- |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 01:08
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it is based on race for most people, if it wasnt we would be doing more about illegal immigration into New England, but its not an issue, so either New Englanders are more tolerant if its not about race or if it is people only care about illegal immigrants if they are Hispanic.
Its a shame that this at least somewhat questionable group the Minute Men is named after the revolutionary Massachusettes heroes who started our indipendace movement. I really doubt some hick in the Arizona dessert could really appreciate what a true minute man is. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 01:34
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It is because these hispanics come into the United States Not respecting the culture or the language. They come in and treat it as a "little Mexico", and live how they would in Mexico, many not even taking the time to learn english. English should be made the official language of the United States, and the only language. Many immigrants from Europe HAd to learn english, many by night school, and then these hispanic immigrants come in and don't even bother. This angers the American people. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 01:57
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thats true, I think culture should be mobile and changing so I dont mind retaining their culture, but they should at least make an effort to speak english, after all, our whole government is run in english. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 02:44
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Many immigrants from Mexico learn English and I use to support English as the official language but if you do that then what about the Native Americans. Many of them want to retain their native language and culture. English as the official language would cut funding to Native American tribe to learn their native language. They can speak English but their native language is part of their identity, like Greek is for many Greek Americans.
Immigrants need to learn English to survive and take advantage of the land of oppurunity. |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 20:45
|
well they should keep their native language then, just like Mexicans can keep Spanish, but they still have to know Engliish, you cant be a good senator if you adress the senate floor in Navaho! ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 23:21
|
It seems that some people do not understand what an "official" language means. It means that all business when dealing with the government will be done in that given language. English as an "official" language does not mean that one cannot speak any other language but English.
As Eaglecap and Tobodai have pointed out, it is in the best advantage of the immigrant to learn English. And there is a strong cultural force among Spanish speaking immigrants for people to learn English. If you randomly watch Spanish speaking T.V., there are good chances that you will end up seeing a commercial for an English course. Furthermore, no European immigrant had to learn English. There was no immigration office chasing immigrants into night classes. It was in their best interest to learn English, and that is what they did; many Mexicans are doing the same thing for the same reasons. Strategos, you have really gotten the cultural behavior of Mexicans in the U.S. wrong. No one from Mexico will ever mistake an immigrant neighborhood as life in a Mexican town or city. They have a unique culture that clashes with Mexican life. Nowhere in the U.S. is there such a thing as a "little Mexico" that actually feels like it. It clashes so much that Mexicans do not consider people raised in the U.S. as one of their own, to the heartbreak of second or third generation Mexican-Americans. I would like you to explain what you mean by "not respecting the culture." I don't want to comment on it without knowing exactly what you have in mind. Also, are you an American living in the U.S., Strategos? ------------- |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 23:49
Strategos, we are not Hispanics. Let me culture you a little bit. Hispanic is a person born on the Hispanic Peninsula ( Spain and Portugal ). We are not Latinos. A Latino is a person born in Italy Peninsula. We are MEXICANS !! We are not central America or South America. Central America starts below the Usumacinta river, got it, bud ? |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 02:18
| I think it is a general term sort of like Anglo. The same can be said about the term Anglo Saxon. Not every white person in American or Canada is Anglo Saxon; Slavic, Mediterranean, Baltic, Turkic and Basque. Now the term Latin, not Latino, would fit someone with Roman or Mediterranean ancestry, including many Spaniards, Greeks and Italians. Since many Mexican have Spanish ancestry wouldn't that make them Hispanic, only the ones with that ancestry. I have spent time in Mazatlan and I saw a lot of diversity amongst the Mexicans; from pure Indian, to various blends of Spanish and other nationalities, to pure Spanish. Our host was half Mexican and half Chinese, great cook!!! |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 02:26
|
general terms like Hispanic arent that bad, after all int he US a white person is usually just refered to as "white" irrigardless of ethnic/national background. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 09:20
|
Jalisco Lancer is seeing the issue from the perspective of a person living in Latin America. There is no great "Latin-American" feeling throughout the continent. Every person from every country identifies with his or her own nationality. And if you pay attention, you will see that these feelings survive in the U.S.
The "Hispanic" or "Latino" identity exists only the U.S., and it is not that strong within the community. The term "Anglo" is use contrastively with "Mexican," meaning "white American," at least among Mexican immigrants. More popular than "Anglo" is calling white people "Americans." Change the context, and the terms that Mexicans use changes as well. For example, talk about different group of white people, and they will start using words like "Irish," "Italian," and for people who came from England, "Anglo-Saxon." But this is the way with every ethnic group. After all, Irish and Italians are still given a hard time in the U.S. Most people won’t say outright anti-Irish or Italian slurs, but they hide these under the name “Catholic.” Interestingly, Mexicans, who are overwhelmingly Catholic, do not fall under this category. ------------- |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 12:35
There are a lot of Chinese descendant in Sinaloa. My Grand grand mother came from Guang Dong and moved from Mexicali to Michoacan. I know some people from Sinaloa with Chinese roots and they are awesome cookers. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 12:49
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She cooked up this six course shrimp dinner that was out of this world!!!!
I like the car license plates- Estate de Sin or state of sin-
My favorite breakfast is a mexican one with refried beans. by the way Soon I will be back in Greece- hurray!!!
|
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 13:02
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the abbreviation of Sinaloa ( Sin ).
Have a safe trip to Hellas. Regards |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 18:24
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I really think we should protect our borders. One thing that boils my blood though is a illegal alien or even a foreigners can get away with life saving treatments from hospitals. And the money comes out of American pockets. In one recent example a women from Peru had a stroke in a mall, she was treated. The hospital tracked her and gave her the bill, it was alittle over 6000 dollars, she refused to pay and threatened to sue. Now her husband is very rich and own a good company so shes not even poor. Even if they can't afford it its still not fair to Americans, a pregnant women can come in and have a baby without paying any bills. Its just not fair at all. There were a few more cases, a few from Europe they showed that were in the thousands that weren't paid also, so its not only from the Americas. But alot of illegals do take advantage... |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 18:31
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Please, I do not need your "schooling." Come to the U.S. for a month or so and you will learn all you need. In America, people from Mexico, Central and South America can be indentified as Hispanic or Latino, and MANY DO recognize themselves as such. I have Hispanic friends, and this is no way offensive to them, and if it was all offensive to you, then that was not intended. And please, none of this bud sarcasm stuff again.. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 18:36
|
Yes, not DIRECTLY they had to learn english, but to surive, it was a neccesity back then. AN immigrant from Germany had no help to learn english. Many Hispanics now a days have ESL programs in schools, more night classes, and many signs and such things are written in Both english and Spanish. Because there is such a help With the hispanic population, they is not as great a need learn english. As they say, you can't learn language A speaking in language B. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 19:03
Is that the fault of the fault of politics or the fault of the immigrants? ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 19:20
|
Its both if you ask me. Unfortunatly I don't write the laws... But they do take advantage of it and its known. Just the like that woman from Peru, and she was rich and refused to pay anything. There would also have to be laws for the major problem of sueing others for the dumbest reasons, or just like the woman from peru she'd just have to sue the hospital and cause more lose on the hospital. Theres a whole lot of laws that would have to be passed through politics, and until then our system will continue to be taken advantage of. I don't mind legal immigrants coming because they are here to make a living, and the illegals or visitors are just stealing from all the Americans whether it be White, black, or hispanic, they lose there money to pay for someone who has no right to do what they did. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 19:34
I agree 100% with you so go to www.congress.org and write your reprentative. I have sent several emails and even one to Bush. I know Bush will never read it but by theory if he recieves enough maybe he will change his policy, I doubt it though. I catch the Roth show once in a while and she covers the problems of illegal immigration on her radio show. type in the Roth show She broadcasts out of little Spokane, WA
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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 22:49
You are incorrect. There were night schools for European immigrants. My wife's grandparents learned English that way. They came to the country in the 1910s. It was such an institution that there is even a radio comedy show in the 1930s or 1940s about immigrants learning English at night school. You really don't know anything about Mexican immigrants' life in the U.S. All what you have is the viewpoint of a biased outsider looking at these people. So, do you live in the Midwest, Southwest, or the South, Strategos? ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:01
|
I think the whole idea of using the term Hispanic probably came from the fact that most white Americans cannot tell a Mexican apart from other groups in Latin America. Maybe some groups from other Latin American countries were offended because they were confused with Mexicans.
It is sort of like the Ukranian who was upset at me for calling them a Russian. I can't tell they all look the same and besides they are both Slavic. We have around 23,000 recent immigrants from Russian and Ukraine. |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:01
| edited by double posting |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:01
I have been in the States already, bud. I already learned all what I have to learn. C'mon, southern US is the 32 state of Mexico, bud
Believe me, you need more than teaching and or schooling. You should understand by now the historical ties with the southern and western US and Mexico. Las Vegas, California, Nuevo Mexico, Tejas, Colorado , El pueblo de Nuestra Senora de Los Angeles, Arizona, Santa Fe, San Francisco, San Diego, San Leandro, San Luis Obispo, Monterey are spanish names. Despites how much you or anybody else hates to recognize it, the Treaty of Hidalgo did not ended our ties on those lands. The border doesn't end at Rio Brvo ( not Grande River ). Even after more then 150 years of the war, the influence and our heritage will not be cut by decrees or walls. We survived to Polk, Tafft , Wilson and many other anti mexican presidents. So, get use to it, amigo. |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:03
|
I have plently of Mexican friends, whose familys moved from Mexico, so do not go about telling me what I know and what I do not know.. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:09
| do you really have mexican friends ? uh oh... |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:23
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Are you trying to provoke me? I expected better from a moderator as yourself.. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:30
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Pal, you are not nothing than a trouble maker. Let's put on that way. I'm ust responding you in a way that you can understand. Have I insult you ? no ? Can you take part of a discussion ? if no, do not start it. Simple as that. And I state that you are troublemaker, since your avatar raised complaints already among our turkish members. Throwing a stone with one hand and hidding it is what I call to be a troublemaker. I have been hanging around for 2 years already. I have seen guys like you messing around. Provoke you ? any profit for me on that ? I do not think so. Just enlightme with any worth post from you ? any essay ? I'm impatient to see from you a propositive post, a post worthly to read. Hopefully you get tired to post inflammatory topics and posts, |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:35
|
You can PM me if you want to write this off topic complaint about me, or respond to my comments in this topic.
------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:37
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I do not like to hide a discussion. whatever you want to tell me, I invite you do it on public. How's that ? |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 00:02
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I have nothing to tell you. You started called me a trouble maker. If you have anything else to say on that note, I invite to to PM me of your troubles. It is what the rest of the moderators would like as well.. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 00:08
| then do not tell me nothing. |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 00:10
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I can post my views on these topics all I like, and if you do not agree with my views, then more power to you, but do not stop the flow of the topic, post within the topic. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 00:14
We are a sovereign nation and while I support legal immigration from Mexico I take a stand against illegal immigration. It is true Spain and then Mexico had a claim on these lands first but if you talk to an Apache, Pueblo, Hopi, Navajo or a California Indian they would dispute that. I enjoy Mexican culture and I try to encourage little Brittany (11) to learn about her Mexican heritage and her Irish and German side as well. Even Mexico has its share of racism. when I was in Mazatlan there was a lot of discrimination against the pure natives Indians from the Spanish mixed Mexicans. Mexicans are not the only ones to have faced discrimination. My Greek relatives also faced it from Anglo Americans. It does not happen anymore but I heard of the story of a Greek being denied entry into a Greek society on a college campus-ironic. Also, the story of a Greek who was severely beat up for dating an Anglo girl. We should not take these disputes personal though- I give my point of view and respect other views. I have tried to point out that illegal immigration is a world-wide problem. I was upset about some Americans who were working in Greece illegally.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 08:08
For the 10th or so time: Why do you think they immigrate illegaly? Because they like it better that way? Of course not, it's because they can't migrate legaly. So if you really have no problems with immigration you should support measurements that make legal immigration easier. ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 09:20
I am judging your knowledge on what you have displayed during this thread. . Here, let me remind you:
Now you claim that you have plenty of Mexican friends. Let’s assume it is true. In what language do you speak with them? How do your Mexican friends show no respect for American culture? Does it offend you to see people with strong, living ethnic identity? Does it offend you hear people speaking a different langauge? P.S. I am surprise that you wanted to take this public discussion to pm with Jalisco Lancer. As the second greatest 20th century U.S. President said, "If you can't stand the heat, don't go into the kitchen." ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 09:38
The argument that Mexican claim to the U.S. Southwest is void because the native-American tribes lived here before is bogus. English-speaking immigrants to Texas considered it Mexican enough to requests permission to the Mexican government to settle there. It was Mexican when they declared their independence from Mexico. The U.S. considered the land to Mexican enough to fight a war over it. They took claim over it after they signed a treaty with the Mexican government. The U.S considered Mexico the legitimate owner of the land. Now, if we want to discuss how the U.S. government treated Native Americans and their land, we can begin with the Cherokee Nation being expelled from their nation. The U.S. expansion to the West is one of the most shameful, crooked episodes of U.S. history. Maybe only slavery tops its immorality. Let’s not forget that the Pilgrims were the ultimate illegal aliens. Not only they did not ask permission to the native and rightful owners, they stole their land and kill their nation. On another note, I am very happy for you to get to go to Greece! I wish I could go there myself. Please eat their delicious food, listen to their beautiful music, and do a few circle dances for me while you are there. ------------- |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 12:22
BRAVO MATADOR, TORERO, TORERO.... |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 14:36
It is not bogus if you are an Apache who saw both the Mexicans and Americans as invaders. If fact, they hated the Mexicans so much they, sadly, tortured them to death, as they did to all of their enemies. Even if America had not taken the territory originally claimed by Spain (Europeans) the Mexicans would have had to subdue tribes like the Apaches. The borders are as they are and we have to right to protect them from anyone who would enter this nation illegally- anyone. Anatolia use to belong to the Greeks but Turkey is a sovereign nation and any idea of the Greeks getting Constantinople back is silly, same with the American SW. Now about language- I wish we spoke three languages; primary language English and then Spanish and French. I enjoy hearing other languages but English for unity should be the primary language. Spanish should be encouraged and taught as a second language. It is sad what happened to the Indians and your are right the Pilgrims could be seen as illegal or invaders but so were the Spanish. It is still up in the air but Greek food sounds good to me now- lunchtime!! 
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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 17:06
I lost my post 
Short version: Mexico was the legitimate owner of the Southwest at the time of the conquest. The U.S. is the legitimate owner of the its terretories today. Just as it is ridiculous to say that Russia can invade the U.S. and take away half of its land because the U.S. had taken it away from its rightful owners, it is ridiculous to claim that the U.S. has done no wrong by taking the land of Mexico away. No one is asking for the U.S. to return the land back. I have said this several times. The Spaniards were terrible too. No doubt about it. That dish looks soooo good! ------------- |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 19:17
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Well, if you know anything of the forum, it is ENCOURAged by the mods to take personal problems with a PM. I will continue to talk about this topic, so don;t worry abouyt me going in to "kitchen" ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 21:51
I agree it was wrong what we did, as most conquest are. There are some radical groups such as La Raza (the race) who want to take back California and the SW. The President of this group stated that if they have to they would kill the white man to get their way. But, I do not believe the majority of Mexicans or other Hispanics would agree with them. Walla Walla has a number of Mexicans and I had the honor of knowing many. For me freindship is not based on race, I am a mutt anyway-lol. Mexican are tough but generally, from my experience, they tend to be peace loving people and just want to enjoy life. I really enjoyed my time in Mexico with the common people, avoid tourists! I do the same in Greece! We have few Mexican or Greeks in Spokane but I look forward to the Greek festival at the Orthodox Church in the Fall. I miss the great Mexican resturants in Walla Walla. I was suppose to have a gyro for lunch but forgot. The Egyptian man who owns the stand reminded me as I walked by. All I could think of was the school's Japanese stir fry-yummmm!! One of my major concerns about out of control immigration is the enviroment. I am an enviromentalist and it saddens me to see our forest and wildlife habitat destroyed to make room of more people, mostly Californians. I cannot stop it but I try to get active in saving wildlife habitat with the Sierra Club and National Wildlife Federation. Our cold winters keep people away but lately it has been getting milder. I like seasons though!! |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 23:34
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A bill is going throuhg the house that is going ot make it impossible
for Illegals to gain a driver's license in the US. It puts forth a few
Federal laws making it extremely hard fo illegals to even get jobs in
the US. And it fixes the border fence and patches the holes that
illegals have been coming through. It basically creates a national
drivers license. Looks like a step in the right direction. If we make it alot harder to get a license here, they will have a hard time getting a job and have access to everyhting US citizens do. Hopefully this will stop some fo the flow of illegal immigration over the US/Mexican border. ------------- |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 00:27
yes, take your personal issues directly to the kitchen. |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 09:20
In the right direction indeed; that is, if you want thousands of drivers with no license and no insurance. Enjoy your self-created anarchy.  ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 09:32
This forum is the kitchen, Strategos. The heat is the response that your post have generated. If you can't deal with the natural response from your comments, don't make them in the first place. Also, we are discussing your great knowledge of Mexican immigrant culture, which you implicitly claimed to be an expert about. I know that when people are losing a debate they tend to change the topic, but I am not going to let you off easy. Back to the discussion. Is someone dodging questions here? I will ask you again: 1. In what language do you speak with your Mexican friends? 2. How do your Mexican friends show no respect for American culture? 3. Does it offend you to see people with a strong, living ethnic identity? 4. Does it offend you hear people speaking a different langauge? Also, what generation Greek-American are you? That is, if you really have Greek ancestors. ------------- |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 10:52
Do you ahve any idea what you are talking about??? Obviously you don't. you can't do anything in this country without a govt. issued ID card. If you don't have a drivers license then you go to the DMV and get a State ID. Its the same exact thing except it doesn't allow ou to drive. This bill makes it so that illegals cannot get their hands on NY FORM OF GIVT ISSUED ID. It is not about driving a car its about obtaining a valid govt. issued ID. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 11:02
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In the county where I'm at , most of those arrested for moving violations do not carry a drivers license. The reason I heard is that they were suspended due to DUI's. Lots of drunks roaming the streets with no license. Now if such individuals have the nerve to drive "illegally" what do you suppose would be a proper deterrant for an illegal alien from driving also? ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 11:37
You are wrong. I do know what I am talking about. I lived in California for six years, arriving there at the time when they passed a law to deny drivers licenses to illegal aliens. And no, you couldn't get a state I.D. either if you did not provide documentation of nationality or legal residency. I know this because I had to do so to get a CA state I.D. What I described was what happened. They just drive without a license. Some police departments in CA actually dislike the law because of they cannot see arrests warrants tagged on driver’s licenses of illegal alien criminals as they did in the past. The bill will violates state sovereignty on top of it. Has the number of illegal aliens to California been reduced since the law passed? I doubt it. So, if you want a useless measure that won’t stop illegal immigration, increase the number of people driving without a license, takes away a crime fighting tool from the police, and violates the federalist principals of the U.S., be my guest. To achieve the same results that this silly bill wants, you may want to use another tool. Leave driver’s license to the states, void them federally as a legal I.D. for a number of things, and issue a Federal Identity I.D. card to citizens and legal residents. This is what the bill is actually creating anyway. Of course, many conservatives don’t like the idea of a federal I.D., but we should be willing to take sacrifices to protect our country, shouldn’t we? P.S. When I use the expression "You don't know what you are talking about," I have evidence to back it. If I don't have evidence, saying such a thing makes me look silly
Edit reason: I just can't get the quotes in correctly  ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 11:58
|
Oops! Somehow the quotes above did not post with my comments. I hope that you didn't believe that I was talking a to you, Seko
While reading over the post, I noticed this gem:
One has to show a single trusted document or several weaker documents to prove that one is a citizen or legal resident already to be able to work. I don't remember how highly they consider a state driver's license or I.D. Maybe you can come up with a copy of the form and post a link to it, Illuminati? I predict that after they pass this bill, which I am pretty confident that they will, there will be more inforcement for a year, the next year it will lose funding and, within three years everthing will be just like it is right now. This is what happened in the 1980s when they passed another "super tough" law against illegal immigrants. I want to state this before I get accused of "not knowing what I am talking about" again ------------- |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 13:27
|
state sovereignty means nothing here. This is a federal law. Cities in California do not allow their officers to even ask a suspect about their immigration status. thats how it is in LA. that is wrong, and thus the state is wrong. the police can only find out their immigration status if the suspedct is arrested for another crime. that is a retarded policy. I am from California. I lived there for over 10 years. A state ID in california means much much more than it does in other states because of the liberal city governments and poor immigration policy in california. A state ID is the same exact thing as a drivers license. It is issued by the DMV, and is just as valid in terms of identifcation. this new bill makes it harder for illegals to obtain an ID like this. i ahd a state ID before I got a drivers license. its completley valid government issued ID. They can now obtain them because of the retards running the states that border. medical care is another big thing. We are required to treat illegal immigrants if they get hurt. If they weren't here in the first place and kept out, then we wouldn't be spending tons money on giving them medical care. the same goes with educating the children of illegal immigrants. the state of california especially cannot be trusted to make decent and educated decisions on its own. Therefore, the federal govt. is forcing the state to abide by new federal laws. all that needs to happen is that for the idiotic city governments in california to stop violating federal immigration laws. But since they won't do that they are losing control and rightfully so. you claim this will cause illegal drivers without insurance, but you can't drive with only a state ID. So I don't see your point here at all. ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 14:49
|
Illuminati,
Driver’s licenses given by states through their Department of Motor Vehicles(DMV) is a state right which this bill wants to take away. In this day, the federal government has limited, if any, jurisdiction on issuing driver’s licenses. You are for a bill that further destroys federalism. I am amazed how you believe that it is fine to chip away state’s rights because you disagree with that state’s law. Not only is your position anti-federalist, it is anti-democratic as well. You missed my point about the California state I.D.. Californian I.D.s are accepted as a legal I.D. because they have been requesting legal status/citizen documents at least since 1994. They took my birth certificate and mailed it back to me a few weeks later. The federal bill requires, according to your description, a procedure similar to that of the California. Is it a federal law for the police to ask about the immigration status of a suspect? It was not in the past, but that may have changed. If it is, please send me the reference to look it up. Maybe in the passion of writing a response you didn’t read what I wrote. I said that illegal aliens are driving without licenses. This creates many problems. Read my post again, and you will get the details of my argument. You forgot to tell me your opinion on the Federal I.D. cards. Please do on your next post. ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:06
|
The thing is that even if they are granted license the vast majority will not drive with car insurance. Even here, 90% white Anglo American; about 35% of the population does not have car insurance. I had a friend get a ticket for driving without insurance, so he got the insurance to greatly reduce the fine and then dropped it shortly afterwards. I wish they had a way to enforce this.
Driving without insurance is a topic in itself-
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Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:11
|
It is federal law that permits police officers to question people about immigration status. Cities in California are barring their officers from asking suspected illegals about their immigration status. that is wrong. California is also refusing to fix the border fence. that is wrong. they are claiming that the border fence is damaging endangered plants. its a joke. Therefore the Federal govt. is forcing California to fix the border wall. how exactly does this bill violate state's rights?? This bill forces the states to verify information with the federal govt before issuing the ID. thats all it does. I could care less about what California thinks. They obviously have completely failed in terms of issuing IDs, because many get into the hands of illegals. this makes it so they can't continue to screw up. This is not a major violation of State's rights. State's are still teh ones that issue ID's. they just have to verify the recipients data with the Federal govt. "The act would prohibit anyone without a federally recognized state-issued ID from boarding an airplane or accessing federal programs that require federally recognized identification." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152328,00.html - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152328,00.html I see nothing wrong with that. I dont care if its considered a National ID. its not an invasion of privacy. Your social security number is how the govt tracks you and knows where u work and live. A national ID makes no difference. as far as illegals driving without licenses.......how does this matter? This has nothing to do with this bill. this bill makes it harder for them to obtain jobs. thats what matters. Illegals will drive illegally whether this bill passes or not. ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:13
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Wow. I did not know that many Americans drive without car insurance. I will drop that as part of my argument then. Thanks eaglecap ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:14
| This is in Spokane, WA and may not represent the whole country. Spokane is not a real rich city but it is beautiful here. |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 18:17
|
I speak English with my Mexican friends, because They are American born, but there parents are immigrants from Mexico. My Mexican friends do not disrespect the culture, because they are legal citizens., You seem to confuse the fact. I Does it offend me to see people with a strong, living ethnic identify? Absolutley not! There is a proud Greek American community in the States, and I have no problem with that. Does it offend me that other people speak a different language? absolutley not, I myself speak greek as well. The problem is when people do Not put worth REAL, and i mean a real effort to learn the language, so the government provides many signs and such in both english and spanish to accomidate for them. The government should not accomidate for such people. ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 19:31
So you do know about Mexican immigrant culture. You know that the immigrants do learn English and do respect American culture. They do it to the extent of encouraging their children, all of your friends, to speak in English and follow U.S. culture. So you are stating that they do integrate to U.S. society.
I am glad that you agreed with my description of what Mexican immigrants do about langauge and culture. How can you tell that people are not putting real effort to learn English? Many illegal immigrants are semi-literate or illerate in Spanish, which may explain their problems learning English. So those signs are not too much help; in many cases, like traffic signs, they may be useful to prevent accidents. I am sure that you believe that the state should not dictate how you should exercise your cultural heritage. So why wish it for other people? At the end, the biggest punishment to people who won't or can't learn English is to themselves. ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 19:49
I will state it one more time, in all capitals. CALIFORNIA DOES NOT ISSUE AN I.D. OR LICENCE TO ILLEGAL ALIENS. They have not done so in about 11 years. So your claim that they have done a terrible job by giving I.D.s and licences is false. If federal law permits asking for immigration status, it means that the local authorities decide if they want to do so or not. So these Californian cities are within the law. This bill takes away state right's because the states can no longer decide how and to whom to issue these licenses. They are, in fact, doing a Federal job but at the state's expense. This is anti-federalist by definition. Just admit that you don't care about federalism. Illegal aliens are already working in the worst jobs job getting paid next to nothing. As long as Americans want cheap food and cheap menial services, these people are going to be hired. Address this issue and the whole problem gets solve. In the mean time, this new bill can create greater problems. I already state them, so please refer back and address them. ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 21:15
|
This is a major concern with illegal immigrants! I found it in Newsmax.com
Breaking News from NewsMax.com Illegals Blocking Marine Training Marines getting ready for combat in Iraq or Afghanistan are having their training time shortened because hordes of illegal aliens from Mexico are wandering onto their firing ranges in Arizona while crossing the border illegally. According to the Boston Globe, the commanding officers of the Marine Corps Air Station in Yuma, Arizona explained that virtually every Marine squadron headed to Iraq or Afghanistan receives combat training at the station, which for nearly 40 miles touches the U.S.-Mexico border in the southwestern corner of Arizona. Colonel James J. Cooney, the base's commanding officer, told the Globe that since July 2004, the training range has been shut down more than 500 times because of immigrants spotted on the range, causing a loss of more than 1,100 training hours. "We're getting overrun here. Any moment we take away from a Marine's experience base could cost him his life in combat," Cooney said. He added that his Marines intercepted more than 1,500 undocumented immigrants on the training range last year and, in the first three months of this year, more than 1,100. He said that base personnel detain the immigrants and call in Border Patrol agents to pick them up. "I have to use Marines that aren't trained in that to do that, which puts me at a liability," Cooney said. "It's completely counterproductive to our whole training operation. "We just don't want them to come here, because we're firing lasers, we're shooting machine guns, we're shooting 209-millimeter cannons, and we're dropping practice bombs." The Globe reported that last summer a Marine pilot dropped a practice bomb on a target and seconds later, a few feet away, a small group of illegal immigrants scrambled from underneath a bush and ran down the range. The near miss was caught on a training tape that Cooney has reviewed. So far the Marines said there have been no deaths of immigrants in the training exercises. "My overall concern is that we'd have an unfortunate incident out there where we'd inadvertently harm an illegal entrant that we did not spot or see, and that in turn would cause a moratorium on training until we sorted out what exactly happened," said Cooney. And it's not just the Marines having the problem. According to the Globe one Army base and another the Air Force base, have experienced similar problems. At the Army Yuma Proving Ground, near the Marine Corps Air Station but about 30 miles north of the border, an increasing number of undocumented immigrants have invaded military space and disrupted training. "The smugglers just drive them up the highway and dump them off, and these illegal immigrants stumble right onto our testing range," said Chuck Wullenjohn, spokesman for the Yuma Proving Ground, one of the largest military installations in the Western world which constantly conducts tests for ground forces on artillery and ammunition, including tank rounds, mines, mortars, and helicopter guns. "Having anyone on this range that doesn't belong here is extremely dangerous," Wullenjohn told the Globe. "The illegal immigrant issue is becoming a bigger problem all the time." The Air Force told the Globe it has had to interrupt exercises with F-16 pilots after undocumented immigrants were spotted on a bombing range east of Gila Bend, north of the border. "In 2004 we suspended range operations 55 times for a net loss of 122 hours," said Jim Uken, director of the 56th Fighter Wing range management office. There is the additional concern that foreign terrorists could cross the Mexican border and infiltrate the Arizona bases to conduct intelligence gathering or commit acts of sabotage. "The potential exists, and that is a key reason we are vigilant about securing our training ranges," Col. Cooney told the Globe. Please Note: Free Instant Health Alerts via e-mail -- Go Here Now. www.newsmax.com |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 21:29
| Alright, now it seems things are getting worse, we should really take more control of our borders and create penalties or something that can warn off all these aliens. I understand that we need them from farming but I heard on the news today, CNN, that the US wants to open farming areas in Central America that will attract them. I didn't catch the full story but I'll try to find it or look out for it. |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 01:19
|
If california does not issue state ID's to illegals, then how is it illegals are getting them?? They aren't all fake ID's. So.....how is it illegal immigrants get fake ID's in a liberal state??? And federal law permits any law enforcement officer to ask anyone about immigration status, NO CITY CAN OVERRIDE THAT LAW. but yet they are doing so, and the federal govt. is really powerless to punish them (hence why the cities do it). You are wrong that this is a decision that is up to the cities. This bill is not an invasion of privacy and it does not impede on civil liberties like the patrio Act does, so I am not against it. If you want to say my position is anti-federalist then okay. I personally would like to see a stronger federal govt. with some more socialistic programs such as universal healthcare for example. ------------- |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 09:50
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If illegal aliens are getting legal California I.D.s, it is through illegal means. They have not been able to get them legally for the last 10 years. It has nothing to do with it being a liberal state. I currently live in Virginia, a very conservative state,which also requires proof of citizen or legal residence, and they also issued legal I.D. to illegal aliens. In this case, they were Middle Eastern potential or real terrorist, I don't remember which, who came legally and stayed beyond their visas permits.
I will try to explain what the word "permit" means. It means that it is allowed, but it is not required. If the law "required" police to investigate immigration status, then California cities would be breaking the law. They are not breaking the law as it stands today. Immigration enforcement is not the responsibility of local police but of INS. Local police has to deal with local crime. Some smaller border towns are allowed to enforce immigration laws if they have the time and resources. Bigger cities with a lot of crime chose not to deal with it. If the federal government is so worried about enforcement, they should increase the INS staff. You have not address the issue of the police losing the capability of searching for warrants on driver's licenses. Taking away this crime-fighting tool means that the bill will help illegal aliens who are criminals. You conservative guys should think these ideas through. The bill will probably worsen your life more than improve it. This is not a good bill. A bill for a national I.D. card is much better. Now, let's dicuss the meat of the problem: How will you solve the economic problem to prevent illegal aliens coming into the country? I have not seen one person seriously discuss this issue. I will state it again: are you willing to pay $10 for a pound of grapes? If not, explain where the $2.45 an hour workers will come from to pick up fruit and vegetables to keep prices as low as they are now? For a "socialist," you have the conservative habit of using the word "liberal" as a slur. You have peppered your posts with it several times. But maybe you are a conservative for socialized medicine  ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 15:01
|
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=17&u=/ ap/20050413/ap_on_re_us/illegal_workers_security
llegal Workers Raise Security Concerns Wed Apr 13,12:11 PM ET Add to My Yahoo! Top Stories - AP By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - The Homeland Security Department arrested 57 illegal immigrants last month working at airports and other risk-sensitive facilities around the country, underscoring concerns that lax employment background checks are leaving a security breach for terrorists to exploit. Photo AP Photo In one example, a Peruvian was hired as an airplane mechanic in Greensboro, N.C., using a fake Social Security card he bought for $70 on a soccer field, according to court documents. In another, a Florida power plant was alerted to a Mexican working at its nuclear facility only after being tipped off by labor union employees, company officials said. |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 16:47
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Eaglecap,
Thanks for sharing this story about potential security weaknesses with us. You must remember though: the problem that this story highlights is lousy background checks, not illegal aliens. You all should write letters to your congresspeople to request giving more funding to INS so that they can do their job correctly. You may also ask that Homeland Security should do something about this. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 16:50
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Yes. Let's raise the terror threat level up another notch and put it on CNN. What color is it now?
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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 16:52
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We could use all the security at our disposal. But are we? Here is something we did with our money though! April 14th, 2005 2:32 pm
WASHINGTON ( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896&e=1&u=/nm/20050413/us_nm/arms_usa_iraq_dc_3 - Reuters ) - The Defense Department is unable to track how it spent tens of millions of dollars in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the U.S. war on terrorism, Congress's top investigator said on Wednesday. The department "doesn't have a system to be able to determine with any degree of reliability and specificity how we spent" tens of millions in war-related emergency funds set aside by Congress, Comptroller General David Walker told a Senate Armed Services subcommittee. Walker heads the Government Accountability Office, Congress's nonpartisan audit and investigative arm. He disclosed the accounting gap as part of a broader indictment of Pentagon business practices. Congress approved $25 billion in extra defense spending for fiscal 2005, which ends on Sept. 30. Lawmakers were moving to approve $81 billion more this week outside the normal budget process, including about $75 billion for war-related Defense Department operations. While there was no doubt that appropriated funds were spent, "trying to figure out what they were spent on is like pulling teeth," Walker said, referring to an accounting effort he said was under way for Congress. The Defense Department had no immediate comment. Overall, Walker said the Defense Department, which is seeking $419.3 billion for its fiscal 2006 budget, was wasting billions of dollars a year because of ineffective management of its business operations. Although Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his top aides have shown a commitment to business management transformation, "little tangible evidence of actual improvement has been seen in DoD's business operations to date," he testified. Walker argued that the Defense Department needed to appoint a chief manager, who would in effect become the third-ranking official at the Pentagon after the defense secretary and the deputy defense secretary. Such a position should be filled by presidential appointment and confirmed by the Senate for a set term of seven years, he said. But the current Pentagon official with responsibility for acquisition, technology and logistics, Michael Wynne, dismissed the idea as he said it would add "layers and players to an already burdened organization." "That is the last thing we need," Wynne, an under secretary of defense, told the Subcommittee on Readiness and Management. "Another layer of management would only foster more delays than ever with new relationships and priorities, potentially hurting our product delivery to the warfighter. "We are bringing the department well forward in financial transparency, using standards and delegated accountability," he said. ------------- |