History of Mughal-Pathans
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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Post-Classical Middle East
Forum Discription: SW Asia, the Middle East and Islamic civilizations from 600s - 1900 AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26319
Printed Date: 16-Apr-2024 at 14:24
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Topic: History of Mughal-Pathans
Posted By: mughalpathan
Subject: History of Mughal-Pathans
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 11:35
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Hello Everybody
I am new at this forum
I am doing research on Mugha-Pathans. My fore-fathers migrated from Afghanistan to Multan, they were Pashto speaking. They told their tribe as Mughal-Pathan.
But now I want to know complete history of Mughal-Pathans. From google, i could not get sufficient information.
Can anyone help me in this regard????
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Replies:
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 15:31
Moved to Q&A  ------------- |
Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 16:13
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Dear I really don't know and haven't ever heared of a tribe by the name of Mughal Pathan.
Mostly the term Pathan is used for pashtuns in (India and Pakistan) and Mughals are related to todays Mongolia, there are alot of mughals still living in Afghanistan, specially in the western areas such as Herat province where they are under "Temori" last name (adopted from Temor Lane).
Regarding the migrations of pashtuns from Afghanistan to the Punjab provice of today's Pakistan is also a common and ancient act, where even Ahmad Shah Abdali's father had migrated to Multan for bussiness purpose and there Abdali was born.
But still combining both ethnics togather would be only in a case where either a pashtun man marry a mughal woman or vise versa, and their children relate themselves to both ethnic, other than this, I haven't heard about the term neither in Afghanistan nor in Pakistan. ------------- 
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Posted By: mughalpathan
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 16:53
Manana Gharanai for your reply
Father of my grand-father....named Muhammad Juma Khan.....migrated from Kabul towards Multan. He told his tribe as Mughal-Pathan.
Not only my family, but i have met 2 other Mughal-Pathan families at Multan, but they also donot know about their origin and history. Some people say that we are originated from Tareen tribe. And some say that we are from Kalar tribe. I am researching upon this topic. From google, i could find some references of this book: -
Afghanistan By C. H. Bleaney, María Ángeles Gallego, Willem Vogelsang page 69. At this page the below given statement is present: - Anew and rare type of Mughal-Pathan found near Calcutta. Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal: Letters, ser. iii, 4 (1938) pp.283-284 |
Posted By: Copperknickers
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 23:04
That reference is to do with an Indian game referred to as 'Mughal-Pathan' because it was invented in the Mughal-Pathan wars. I can find references to the term used a a surname and tribal group a lot, but i cannot find how it came about. EDIT: Here is something: "[...]caste-like categories in terms of inter-dining and inter-marriage between their functional groups and other appelations, like Mughal-Pathan, Sheikh,..." |
Posted By: mughalpathan
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 11:41
Dear Sir Copperknickers
So that I am here at the forum to know extact idea that what is our actual tribe???? As we were told it Mughal-Pathan
I need help of you all in this context
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Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 20:09
| Brother , Suprsingly I'm in the same boat as you. I was told i was 'Mughal Chaghtai Pathan' , i made a thread a little while ago, requesting some knowledge about this. Maybe you can have a look at it and see if you find anything intreseting. In my thread, i was told i can't be both Mughal and Pathan, but Sarmat came up with two possibilities of my origin, but nothing is for certain. |
Posted By: mughalpathan
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 02:07
Thanks for replying here. I also read your post and got more confused
Still I am searching at google
At many marriage websites.....I have founf many names who claiming Mighal-Pathans. I have ringed all those who showed their Cell Number but still no positive response could be get. But I am not discouraged. I ll find...!
Mughal-Chughtai-Pathan is also confusing me!
I can only pray for u. May you find your exact relation with history!
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 14:57
If your forefathers were Pushto speaking then they have not been from Kabul proper and might have been some area near to Kabul and you are Afghan or Pat'han and if Persian speaking then they might have been original Kabulites who are neither Mughal nor Pat'han but Kabulees which are by race old Persians like that of many areas of Persian speaking people in Afghanistan. There are also Persian speaking Turks and Mughals in Afghanistan and you may make your character to seek your clan. If you are round faced and of middle size and walk smoothly though you do not keep your word and change your view and loyalty then you are a Mughal. If you are somewhat taller in stature and have your upper body heavier than legs and step forward stamping like lifting your foot and putting down and do not make much honour to your elders and alter your words then you are a Pathan or Afghan. If you see your family used to manners and discipline then you are a native of Kabul or Persian speaker. You may call that a Tajik or Persian speaking Kabuli.
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Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 20:04
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http:// -
http:// - Rather
strange characteristics you’ve given the Mughals and the Pathans, next time I’ll
be on the look out.
http:// -
http:// - Anyway, I’ve
got a question, when can you truly be defined as a Pathan? So, say for example,
if you live in the Pashtun areas, are you to be considered a Pathan or is it a layman’s
misconception that everyone living under Pashtun areas is a Pathan? Or do you have
to belong to a Pashtun Tribe, to be considered a ‘Real’ Pathan? This is also
very similar to the question, how do you define your identity? Do you automatically
adopt the identity of your birth place? Or does your race and your heritage
define you? So for example, if your were born in the U.K, do u become British,
or English, even if your parents are originally from Pakistan? Similarly, if
you born in Pashtun areas, although your parents origin from India, are you considered
a Pashtun?
http:// - |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:03
| Pathan is the name of a race and not a geography. You will be a pathan if you are from pathan parents, and if not you may link with your name your nationality. Pathans are divided into tribes and are known of that. One if starts living in a Pushtun or any area with any other race creates a new branch of those people by their new converted clan. For example Indian pathans who are there in a large number and are the offsprings of Pushtuns but they speak Hindi and will be considered by any means as Indians. Among Muslims the famous Sufi poet Jalaluddin Rumi who was a Turk from Balkh migrated to Asia minor which is called Rum or former Eastern Rome so the poet is named Rumi or Roman in English. Small sections of population just get merged into the local population lest all the locals be not displaced. Similarly living in Pushtun area will get one Pushtunised with time. |
Posted By: MarcoPolo
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 01:15
Are you really being serious? thats got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard  is this a true metaphor or something youve observed yourself? or perhaps its a village saying? as its the first time I've heard that. From a phenotypic expression point of view, Pashtuns tend to be more proportionate and of medium stock while Panjabi's tend to be taller with predominant upper torso's(Again possibly a stereotype but interestingly also a noted British observation of the late 19th century when they did studies on various tribes living in Pakistan). These are generalizations and are not always true and as with most studies, are subject to various biasis)
Agreed about the statement
 Some insight about Pashtuns/Pukhtuns/Afghans(native)
 :First we need to get the terminology correct. The correct/accurate term is ''Pashtun or Pukhtun'' depending on the dialect of Pashto spoken by the Pashtun. Pathan has a dual meaning, it is used by South Asian speakers who perhaps cannot pronounce the ''kh'' or ''sh'' of Pukhto/Pushto and hence call them Pathans, or additionally a local misnomer in South asia similar to how all Persian refugee Zorastrians of the 16century came to be known as Parsi's due to their maternal tongue of Farsi (persian). By Pashtuns/Pukhtuns themselves, Pathan tend to refer to non-pashto speaking peoples of obviously different genetic make-up, of decidedly non-Pashtun blood lines who often coincidently use the surname khan or a family name of notable Muslims and are considered as ''fake claimants'', mostly converts to Islam who have adopted the title for social and status reasons;(as a result of the permeating culture of social castes and divisions prevailant in South Asia). Many of these claimants where infact converts to Islam encoraged by various foreign rulers(Turks-from which the original surname Khan is believed to have originated from, Mystic-Sufis, Pashtun/Afghan rulers and other Islamic empires that ruled at different times in South Asia)
Here are the basics of who IS Pashtun:
1) Has to have their current village from Afghanistan or Pakistan.
2) Must follow Pashtunwali (Pre-Islamic Pashtun code of conduct)
3) Must validly fall, in a direct immediate line, on the well documented Pashtun Family tree leading to Qais Rashid(forefather of all Pashtuns/Afghans) and his sons(who have a documented tradition of having settled Afghanistan, Pakistan and the regions of Multan, Swat and Lahore.
4) Must speak Pashto or Pukhto (+ sub dialects)
5) Must have majority Genetic markers specific and unique to Pashtuns.
6) Can legitimately partake/have representation in Pashtun/pukhtun tribal Jirga(s) if the situation arises.
It needs to clarified that Pashtuns/Pukhtuns are not found in india, this can be proven genetically, linguistically, culturally and phenotypically; more importantly, modern living Pashtun tribes dont even recognize them. During the British Raj, there where some Pashtun colonies (eg. Rohilkhand, Jullundhar etc...) but they migrated en masse (en bloc) to Pakistan and Afghanistan back into their parent tribes who accepted them; a smaller minority went via Burma to the 2 aforementioned countries. All Pashtuns/Pukhtuns can directly trace their lineage along a family tree to one of the tribes inhabiting the Pashtun/Pukhtun regions of Afghanistan(Southern/Eastern) and Pakistan(Western/Southwestern/Central). If that family is living in the USA, UK or Dubai, it does not change the fact that their immediate ancestral village and roots, non-severed, are still from the Pashtun Belts of those two countries, otherwise they are not considered Pashtuns.
In the late 19th Century, Pashtun tribes did something interesting to safeguard attempts to undermine their ethnicity which was under cultural onslaught by the colonialist who had become experts at breaking down, reducing traditional cultural links and dividing various peoples they encountered(eg. Lawrence of Arabia is a well known British intelligence officer, who spoke and acted like an Arab and persuaged Arab Bedouin tribes to turn on the Ottoman Turks and in essence founded modern Arab nationalism. In the case of South Asia, Rudyard Kipling can be considered his counterpart), The Pashtuns unanimously adopted a univeral resolution to make the Pashto/Pukhto language an important marker of identification for themselves, (you have to remember that this was occuring at a period when British colonialists where breaking down ancient administrative languages and promoting Urdu in the place of Persian to minimize the influence of Persia, Afghanistan and Central Asia(Tajikistan) on the western regions(i.e. Pakistan) which they subsequently added to their their vast South Asian Empire. Pashtun tradition and laws have several innate characteristics that allows for clear rules as to who is a real Pashtun; which in recent years has been strenghtened with advances in human genetic markers.
Another example is Australia, where many Pashtuns went to chart out the vast expanse of the dessert after the British sent them there. Most have intermarried over successive generations into the Aboriginal/Australian gene pool as they werent allowed to bring their wifes/families. If you ever have the chance to meet a modern day ''Ghans'' , you would immediately recognize that they cannt be considered Pashtun and have little genetic markers left to indicate that they are Pashtuns; after successive generations. Culturally distinct, they dont look Pashtun, follow Pashtunwali, dont speak Pashto or retain any trace of their Pashtun bloodline and wouldnt be able to take part in a pashtun jirga.
Furthermore, another case in point, there are many ''Pathan'' claimants in the city of Karachi in Pakistan who are still termed Mohajir-urdu, they neither look Pashtun, speak Pashto, act and or follow Pashtunwali, and despite the fact that they have lived alongside an estimate 3-4 million real Pashtuns(Karachi is the largest urban concentration of Pashtuns in the world), are still not accepted nor treated as Pashtuns despite having lived there for some 60+ years. Infact, they themselves still identify themselves as Mohajir-Pakistani-Urdu Speakers
With the advent of DNA/Genetic testing and the aforementioned points, it has become quite easy to delineate Ethnic groups and seperate fact from fiction. We can thank modern science, the maintance of records, traditions and historical research, Anthropology, Ethnography and most of all Genetic testing for this. I hope that was helpful to your understand of Pashtuns/Pukhtuns
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 18:55
Ofcourse Sir, I am serious. It is my own observation and almost true that everyone can examine. You have mentioned about the Punjabis by the English to be taller. No doubt Punjabis are taller being the mixed population of Rajputs and Chhatrees i-e Gakkhar's, Gujars, Khokhars etc. The body shape of Punjabi and Pathan differs to each other. The upper body of Punjabis is shorter than legs. Being having longer legs their daily routine differs than that of other races. Punjabis do use the upper end better than the lower, they can play Kabaddi well but not football as a game.
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Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 13:16
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Great info. Can you tell me a little more about the Collonies in Jullundhar ? |
Posted By: hmmm
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 02:42
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A good place to start is to read what the people in olden times were writing themselves about each other. This way you may learn more. It seems that Mughal writing are quite preserved. Pathan artifacts or writings do not exist, as far as I know. If you read early Mughal writings then you will find them mention people living in what is now known as FATA in North-West Provinces. A lot of battles are also described and Mughals held a very dim view of these people, whom we can call as Pathans now. So, at that time, they were clearly two different group of people and not one as Mughal-Pathan. Later, Pathans may have entered the service of Mughals and may even have relations with them. It should also be remembered that Pathans were a constant nuisance for Mughals and lot of time was spent quashing them.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 16:39
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 16:40
This is the tribal sketch of Jalandhar towns from http://www.jalandhar.nic.in - www.jalandhar.nic.in . One must observe here that the people of Basti mitto Sahib/Kot Sadik are the real Pathans. The Barakis or Barkis are Persian people and can be named Tajiks. There is another name in the description of the tribes of Jalandhar that these are Ghuz Barkis. It is not correct, if they are Barkis they are Tajiks and if Ghuz are from Turkish group. In Jalandhar there are following settled tribes;
Ghuz are Turks, Barkis are Tajik, Khalil are Afghans or Pathans from the central Peshawar region. So conclude yours and also inform us.
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Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 22:33
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Interesting ... My grandfather was from Jullandhar, and There was some sort of family link to Peshawar. But, The information i have does not help me affirm or conclude my heritage. The question that hasn't been answered yet is, if you live in the Pukhtunkhwa and your originally from East India, are you to be considered a Pukhtun or is it a layman's misconception that everyone living under Pukthunkhwa is a Pukhtun ? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 07:17
| On becoming a Pukhtoonkhwa if applied by the present Pakistan government, the Northwestern Frontier Province of Pakistan will see a movement of Non Pathan people of the north and north eastern section for its further demarcation of provincial boundary. |
Posted By: Aryan de Pakhtra
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 10:48
If you are originally from India or Panjab, and go to Afghanistan or NWFP then you will not be considered Pashtun; you will probably be considered "Hindki" or "Hindkowan". Hindki have been living in Afghanistan for centuries, primarily in Kabul and Kandahar, as well as NWFP and speak Hindko which is Indo-Aryan language besides Pashto.
Although Dardics also speak Indo-Aryan languages, and live in eastern Afghanistan and northern NWFP, yet they are considered closely related to Pashtuns instead of Hindki.
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Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 11:56
But what if I'm originally from Pukhtunkhwa or Afghanistan and then a migrant in Punjab (due to the Pakhtun colonisation in Parts of Punjab) ??? What would you catergorize Raj Kapoor as ? |
Posted By: Aryan de Pakhtra
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 15:23
If you are originally from Afghanistan or Pashtunkhwa and can prove as well, then you will be considered purely Pashtun.
Raj Kapoor is not Pashtun; he is probably Hindki or Panjabi.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 20:02
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Yusuf Khan or Deleep Kumar is a Pathan. Among Muslims there is not much preferred the difference of breed or culture, many Muslims have been having authorities outer their own folk like the thousands of Arabs being on active duty in the army of Navab of Deccan and Turkish and Caucasian Memlukes being as the rulers of Egypt, etc. All that has been improtant is the personal qualities of the man or group. This thing prevails there where there is not prejudice exists like that of castes and languages. In modern times the ture Islamic values are being mostly vanishing and the authorities being not like in the design of the past lack such qualities and massess dwelling in neighbourhood or mixed remain in open hostile manner to each other. One may see the quarrel of Turkmen and Kurd nationality in norther Iraq on the possession of the city of Kirkuk where they have been living for centuries without a conflict. Similar is the case in Karachi Pakistan where there are more than three groups in conflict to master the city.
Where there has been no quarrel of language and racial prejudice nationalities have merged with each other and newcomers have been welcome and diluted. Most of the Turks of Asia Minor or Modern Turkey possess qualities and body appearances of eastern Romans like Greeks and other nations of the region being most converted to their religion and further with inter relations.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 14:10
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Hi All.
I am new on this forum. My Real Name is Amir Khan and I am from Cape Town, South Africa. I have made some enquiries and was told that my family originates form Afganistan and we are Pathans. How do I get hold of information as to the history of my family as none of my family members can actually assist me with this. I am very interested in tracing any family that I may have in Afganistan and would like to oneday make contact with them. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 19:59
| Do ask about the place and the branch of family you said as did belong to in Afghanistan. If all that fails and you do not have any information then do start with an Afghan family branch in South Africa with the name of your father or grandfather who had migrated there. If the first man of your ancestor there was Ahmad Jan or Salim Khan then start by then as Ahmad Kheil or Salim Khel, South African Afghan. You are to be attached to the land you are living now. |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2009 at 14:46
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Salam & thanks Marco-Polo, You are right in describing the Pathans, originally, they are from Afghanistan. But they settled in subcontinent and other part of the world. I am from, Hassanpur, Distt. Moradabad, UP, India, New Delhi. We are Mahmand tribe and my forefathers came during the period of Jahangir, the Mughal king to this area. if you study, there are everywhere pathans in modern India, especially, western UP's all cities, Hydrababhad, Patna and SasaRam (in Bihar, where Sher Shah suri, remained a long time, and his and his familily's mazars are there). My grand father knew Pushto language. We have our 'Shajra'.
Thanks again,
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Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 21:25
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I was reading Punjab Caste by Sir Denzil Ibbetson, which is readily
available to download here :
http://www.archive.org/stream/panjabcastes00ibbe/panjabcastes00ibbe_djvu.txt,
and in it he had the following Observation : This extract was detailed underneath the report findings of the Mughal Tribes, in particular this was of the Chaghatta tribe, and the numbers are just figures from a consensus report (so that shouldnt cause confusion).2,510 persons have returned them- My issue is, What does it mean to identify yourself from a Pathan Caste and a Mughal Tribe ?? I mean is that even possible ?? |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 08:22
| Anyone has specific detail of Mahmand tribe of Pathans, coming to the India (present day), I mean how and in which period they came. Thanks. |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 18:45
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Is there such a thing as Pathan Caste? If there is then could it be what this person described in another Forum: "My dada told me that we are not the same as Pashtuns, he said they use the word Pathan to describe their ethnicity and for us its used to describe our caste, we’re Pathan (high caste, farmers, landlords, ghairatmand) as opposed to the Kami’s i.e. Potters (Kumhaar), Barbers (Nai), Carpenter’s (Mistri), Weavers (Julaahey), Shoemakers (Mochi) etc." |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 06:47
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In Islam there is no cast system like other religions, the one who has 'Taqwa' (fear of God) is near to Allah (SWT), Arabs are not higher than others and others are not higher than Arabs (this is the mafhoom[similar to translation] of an hadeeth). Just for identification we can give a name to our group.
The message of brother yas245 is not understandable. thanks.
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Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 22:24
Brother, I know Islam doesen't tolerate a caste system, but that doesent answer my question. I wanted to know whether such a caste existed and what it really meant. My initial thought was people wern't using it in the sense that one is higher or lower, but rather as an indication of ethnicity. In my case and in the case of my friend who started the thread, the strange thing is we have a mix of identities - We are Mughal-Pathans. I was only enquiring so it would help me understand what Mughal Pathan really meant. As far as i know we are Mughal by Tribe, which leaves a huge question mark on the Pathan aspect. So, having just said that, it should make things a little clearer to you, but it would of helped if you had read the whole thread beforehand. |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2009 at 06:25
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Brother yas245, yes for those things we have to study and find like of Mughal Pathans. I too think the same, they were just using only for indentification of ethnicity. In indian part as for as I know these are two different identities, Mughal and Pathan. I offer one nice Sha'er to you :
Ek hi saf mein khadey ho gai Mahmood wo Ayaz,
Na koi bandah raha na bandah nawaz.
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2009 at 05:51
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The confusion of caste arises from the fact that over time under Islamic influence various Indian origin non pathan/pakhtun communities in India assumed the identity of high profile well to do muslim communities like mughals and pathans.
So ethnically they are non pashtun communities that have adopted other identities to compensate for leaving the hindu caste system. In effect attempting to create an alternative caste system where they could still enjoy privilege by distinction.
It is also true that some pathan families involved in menial work due to hardships would not disclose their identities as pathans from a sense of shame.
Also, simply appearances alone are not a qualifier for pathan origin, Kashmirs are often mistaken for pathans. It is perfectly possible for kashmiri communities that speak local dialects other than their own from pakhtun dominated areas to be confused with the pakhtuns themselves. ------------- |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2009 at 06:34
| Thanks, Malizai, But I read in some books, in Kashmir too, Pathans came from Afghanistan, not all kashmiri are pathans but there are some tribes of Pathans. We should study and find out the realities. |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2009 at 23:28
Indeed there are pathan communities all over the northern sub continent, isolated as well as conjugal communities of pathans all over northern india like in uttar pardesh. kashmiris of course have seperate ethnic identity, culture, psyche and customs. I was just alluding to the close proximity of the two communities and the apparent similarity of appearence to the outsider, making possible cases of mistaken identity based on the place of abode of either.
------------- |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 07:25
| Thanks Malizai, if you know some site of Pathans History from the Begining. And I want to know when exactly, I mean the period of time when "Mahmand" Qabila or tribe came from Afghanistan to 'Presnet India'. as I heard they used to come with the kings or rulers at that time. |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 03-May-2009 at 02:28
There are numerous sites on pathan history and they will tell u about numerous and often conflicting beginnings. Pathans or pakhtuns are notoriously difficult to pin down in anthropological terms, aided by their general illiteracy and bloated egos u will get alternative self confessed histories of their ethnogenesis depending on who u speak to.
You may also need to consider multiple migrations of any one tribe to a single locality and single migration to multiple localities. The most important factor for reversing history of any tribe would therefore be locality.
It is true that pathans have been the fodder of multiple invasions and factions irrespective of religion or creed, but there also have been migrations to enlist. Akbar in his time defined their movements as ants and locusts. ------------- |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 03-May-2009 at 07:55
| Thanks a lot, keep in touch. |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 24-May-2009 at 00:53
Yes that is true, but you can't deny both Pukthuns & Kashmiri's already inherit similar physical fetures obvious to the eye. Whereas, Punjabi's in comparison to Pukhtuns or Kashmiri's don't naturally ( except those bordering the NWFP and Azad Kashmir ). How commonly do you see Punjabi's being confused for Pukhtuns or Kashmiri, unless there are real obvious features, very rarely. For some Punjabi's to claim Pathan origin may infact be because of their appearence, but it would be a very weak claim. But if it is then backed up with their ancestors being foreigners in the land they live, then it maybe a truer claim. |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 24-May-2009 at 07:05
| Yes, me to, I find quite similarity in colour, shape and the way of behaving of Pathans in western UP and the Pathans in Kashmir. But none of them speak Pushto language. So they are spred in whole of India. specially in northan part, UP, Bihar, MP and Hydrabad. |
Posted By: mughalpathan
Date Posted: 29-May-2009 at 02:25
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About Mughal-Pathans:
Mughol-zai is a subtribe of GilZai or Tokhi tribe:
Tokhi (Ghilzai) A Ghalji (Ghilzai) tribe found throughout southern and western Afghanistan, although most heavily concentrated in Zabul and Uruzgan. Two main sub-tribes are the Muhammadzai (the largest) and Shamulzai (Shimalzai); other divisions include the Jalazai, Babakrzai, Miranzai, Jaffri, Pirozai (Pir Khel), and Kishaini.
Ghilzai pathans have been originated from Turkey.
(It may be possible that the people who are claiming themselves as Mughal-Pathans are actually Mughol-Zai from Ghilzai tribe)
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Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 30-May-2009 at 06:21
| Thanks a lot, where the word Zai started. I am interested in Mahmand Tribe that is based in and around Peshawar, me too, I belong to the same tribe though now I am in India Delhi. |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 30-May-2009 at 23:24
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I recently had a intresting conversation with my uncle and the conversation went like this: He told me my Great Grandfather, who was from Jullandar, was Pashto speaking, but he claimed it wasn't his mother tongue, but a language he picked up whilst he was in the area of Swat, Peshawar due to Army duties there. There is also no clue as to where his parents originated from; though, the name of my Great Grandfather and his brothers: Abdullah Khan, Maula Baksh and Khadhar Khan; aswell as their physical descriptions, to me, sound as if they were foreign settlers. My Uncle inisisted that they were Mughal Chaghattai, whereas my father recalled my uncle saying they were Mughal-Pathan or Mughal-Chaghattai-Pathan. I don't understand why i keep hearing different narrations. Anyway, i expressed my doubts, but i learnt these doubts existed for my Uncle, who himself was not completely sure about our history. The problem is my ancestoral history only goes back 1 generation, so its something we are bound to inherit. Some things i would like to clarify are ... 1) Is it true that during the time of the British Raj, if you were found to be Mughal, you would be killed or deprived in some way in society, which meant you had to hide your original identity or tribe ??? 2) How likely could the language Pashto been picked up while serving the Army? 3) How possible was it for people to change their Tribe ? 4) Did people generally adopt the Surname "Khan" as their second names ? |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 31-May-2009 at 06:47
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Yes, you are right yas245, here is no proper record of the tribes moment. Only the record is what one told his sons and those sons keep on telling others. It is almost true that "Khan" is also used as title. In North India, near Delhi, there is an area called "Mewat", it starts from Delhi and went upto 'Rajasthan', these people are called Mewati, they are converted from Hindu Rajput, they all use with their names khan though they are not Pathan, it is because some of their lelders were given the title khan by Mughals kings.
But in North India, the real pathan too, use urdu as their language, some of them use pathan Suit to wear like in Afghanistan, they still have many traditions the same. One, "Mr. Salman Khursheed" is the minister in the new government now, he is Pathan from 'Azam Garh', UP. I am interested about knowing of "Mehmand" tribe, when they came to Delhi.
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Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 31-May-2009 at 13:21
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Brother, I hear what your saying. I really wanted to know the validity of some information. Absolutely, like you said there is no proper record of such things and it is just something thats passed on through Generations (Mine being only 1 Generation). Regarding your Tribe, i think it would be a good idea to start a new thread since the topic of this particular thread is Mughal-Pathan. Here people are looking for their origin from two distinct identities. Whereas in your case, you have your tribe name and looking for information on it. As much as i like to help, i honestly do not know anything about that tribe. However, after my quick search here's what i can offer you : There is a slight spelling varriation. it is either "Mehmand" or "Mohmand", i guess they are the same. Some information can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohmands http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohmand_Agency Regarding when they came to Delhi is similar to the question i posed about the possible migration of my ancestors into Jullandhar. I took it as an exceptional case of migration, and not as a collective one. My theory was that people travelled for trade into places where they were most likely to find it and perhaps be better off (if they had the money offcourse). Then I learnt about the Pashtun colonies, now these were collective migrations during the British Raj (earlier in this thread); the reason for these migrations were perhaps because of the inital idea i had of trade. Delhi or the other indian places were either trade centers, place of development and/or popularity. Now after the recent conversation with my Uncle (below), i have raised questions regarding this migration. If my ancestors were Pashtun migrants or if they weren't, then questions 2 and 3 would be the crux in deciding that:
Some Questions: 1) Is it true that during the time of the British Raj, if you were found to be Mughal, you would be killed or deprived in some way in society, which meant you had to hide your original identity or tribe ??? 2) How likely could the language Pashto been picked up while serving the Army? 3) How possible was it for people to change their Tribe ? 4) Did people generally adopt the Surname "Khan" as their second names ? My uncle was told by my Grandfather, who himself knew little about his history, but that is not to say he knew anything at all. Therfore, these questions for me, i hope, will help me determine whether they were actually Pashtuns or Mughals or maybe decendants of both. I hope that helped. |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 07:37
| Good information, thanks. I believe, Pathans first migrated at the time of Mohammad Gauri, first Muslim king coming to present India. Though there have been migration before too but even there was not Islam in present Afghanistan at that time. It means, pathan migrated with other tribes names ( may be any name from presnet North Indian casts system). Then during 'Lodhis' dynasty period as they were pathans themselves later, during Mughal period and 'Sher Shah Suri''s' time. the biggest gathering was in Roheil Khand area of UP, comprising many districts from 'Moradabad' to 'Shahjahan pur'. thanks. |
Posted By: mughalpathan
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 03:31
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For Indian Pathan: Dear, I have a friend who is Mohmand but this time, he cannot speak pashto, he is hindkowan. He lives in Pekhawar For Yas245: Brother why you do not go towards Genographics test? It will make you clearified about your actual tribe / origin and language ?
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Posted By: mughalpathan
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 03:36
Yesterday, I met a pasthun from Bannu; I just asked about his tribe. He was Yousaf-Zai with sub-tribe Mughal-Khel. I was suprized. It forced me to think deeply. It may be possible that Mughal-Zai / Mughal-Khel etc when came and started living in Punjab, they had been started to be called as Mughal-Pathans.
But I am not sure, as I have only this suspecion without reference.
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Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 06:07
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Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 06:08
| Thank you very much, yas and Mughal Pathan, very informative. Please keep it up. |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2009 at 14:15
| Where are you guys ??? |
Posted By: Indian Pathan
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2009 at 23:13
How are you Yas245 and Mughal Pathans, though I am in India not but I am sorry for the disturbances in the Pathans area in Pakistan as I hear the news. Hope the matters will be solved soon and there would be peace again. Allaah (SWT) help muslim in all the ways, Ameen. Please pray you all and send me the latest information if you have, thanks.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2009 at 01:03
It has not been the practice of a single period of time for migration of Afghans to India. Afghan plateau is a rough region with scanty sources so most Afghans did transferred to India. The King Taimur while attacking Delhi says that he was astonished to see a lot of Afghans in the Indian Army siding with the Non-Muslims against him. However, mostly in the later days Afghans migrated to India in large numbers in the time of Sher Shah Suri who had called for them to inhabit India. In the second battle of Panipat in 1556 A.D there were mostly Afghans on the side of Himun Baqal against Akbar the Great.
The main thing there is that one has to be true and loyal to the land where one decides to live.
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Posted By: davinci
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2011 at 04:42
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most north indians are an indegenous mix of migrants from the frontier regions and across. its either the migrants having mixed for only a few generations with the locals or vice -versa.the former have set up castes to limit their mixing with the local population and for other socio-economic reasons. the muslim settlers could be benchmarked by their duration of stay here.the earlier they arrived mored are the chances of generations of intermixing.usually group migrations have still prevented intermixing coz of marriages within the group,ther are only rare cases of rebellious individuals who marry a local , such families are avoided as prospective in-laws.so dats quite afew pashtun communties in india have retaineds their distinct identities, culturally thet are a homogenised muslim society.so any self proclaimed pure afghans do not just brush aside indian pathan communities as no more.(coz a lot of frontier pashuns could be descendants of ranjit singhs army ;)
------------- let there be light |
Posted By: ghaznevite
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2014 at 20:02
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Salam to all There is no such thing exists like "Mughal Pathan", it is either Mughal OR Pathan, having blood lines from their fatherhood. Mughals were the most wiser of all at all times, weather it was to come to their battle craft, military leadership as they very very successfully managed all the other nations living in Afghanistan i.e Pathans uzbeks tajiks to fight for them under their flag and rulership or it comes to their architectural sense as creation of engineering masterpieces or their emotional attachments with their queens, as far as thei management and rulership is concerned they euled over for 1000 years in Indian sub continent. they competed for and as true breed made to rule, A true muslim guiding becon for other nations living in Afghanistan as their army. There might be pathan generals fighting for the mughal armies but those who make them fought in the battle field were always Mughal Kamandaars, who were actually responsible for the fate of war they were fighting. Durranies are considered to be the royals of Pathans but they were also use to be part and parcels of Mughal armies. What is "1857 war of independence", it was never a war of independence as reported by indian historians it was actually war to reinstate and strengthen the ruler ship of last Mughal emperor King Bahadur shah zafar but when he lost the war, the Britishers after killing the royal princes with the help of hindus tried to find out those cousines of the who were reported gathering in Afghanistan to fight back with the help of mughals living in India, As per the reports the advance parties of the kings lashkar (The flank protectors) has reached to Multan. Being eminent threat to Britishers, they started killing the notable mughal kamandaars in all the area under their rule and that was the reason made the most of the notables to underground. Multan and its suburbs i.e velleys of Koh e Suleman were considered to be the best suited area at that time to be their hide out since as it was most easily accessible to Afghanistan on military routes so the left over Mughal kamandaars had decided to make themselves underground till the time to retaliate against their defeat. for the purpose they made special walls in their buildings to hide their battle arsenal and develop a spy network against the british govt. Unfortunately as the Britishers moved the king to Rangoon where he died and already killed the actual crown princes therefore the kings death also faded the struggle of Mughals to fight back for their lost glory. Pathans are no doubt born fighters and they conquered Indian sub continent for 17 times under the leader ship of Mehmood Ghaznavi belonging to Durrani tribe where as Babar having Pathsn in his army conquered india once and his decedents remained the rulers. Having said that I believe in the thing that Where mughal blood matches the Pathans, there comes the most lethel combination of warrior breed who is not only die hard fighter but also a always winning military strategist make his enemy bleed with a thousand cuts. I am decedent of a Mughal kamadaar of that time his father was leading an army from Afganistan. I still finding his arsnels including armours, head gears , daggers, swords and shields hidden inside the walls of haveli in our native village where our grand grand father used to live a a "loyal to King". By the way my grand grand mother and my grand mother both were from durrani tribe. ------------- |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2014 at 15:21
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This all very interesting, however, without refs. and sources all this is just opinion and family oral history.
I'm not disputing any of this, but pointing out a problem with Indian history discussions. sourcing becomes circular, and darn rare.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: k_s_khan
Date Posted: 24-May-2015 at 23:07
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Hi Indian Pathan, Do you have any links to Hoshiarpur. My maternal side is Mehmund and they belong to there. There shajra goes up to Sheikh Noor Jamal whose tomb is still there. K Khan
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Posted By: Arshad Mughal
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2015 at 14:33
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AOA Dear Father of grand father was also named as Jumma khan and he also migrated from kabul. I think we might have family links, i live in lahore. Will you please contact on this number: 0333-2118305
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Posted By: Shami Mughal
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2016 at 03:45
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Dear All; I also heard this sentence "Mughal Phathan", i have no reference to proof this right or wrong. But searching Mughal history I found answer for this phrase. At very early "Babar The Great" established himself in Kabul and then pushed steadily southward into India from Afghanistan through the Khyber pass. As in Afghanistan phasto language was commonly used, so they learned this. Latter many other Mughal Emperor's do poetry in pashtoo, so only this language was indulge to Mughal roots. So it's fact every english speaking is not a Britain or every Punjabi speaking is not Punjabi , so every phasto speaking is not phathan. These are just languages that people learned to survive in day life routine or just sake of there interest or needs. So as questioned by "Mughalphathan" his forefathers were migrated from Afghanistan so for surviving in those conditions they learns phasto there. When they shift to Multan or Pakistan they learnt Urdu, they don't become Punjabi Mughal's. Mughal are just Mughal, irrespective what language they speaks. So mughal phathan term is wrong my dear. And advance apology for those who get weird and became angry on my reply. ------------- Mughal The Warriors |
Posted By: Tyeba Erphan
Date Posted: 06-May-2016 at 01:31
Heyyy..!! m also a Mughal Pathan...!!! n m very curious since my childhood about the origin of my caste that it is Mugha nl Pathan too ...!!!! 
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Posted By: Tyeba Erphan
Date Posted: 06-May-2016 at 01:40
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ya in my family there are mughal pathans me my dada n my nani n also i know some other people who are mughal pathan too....!!! ------------- Life iz an ice-cream...Enjoy it before it melt.. |
Posted By: COSSACK
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2017 at 06:11
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It is really interesting question. I have observed that pashtuns always take serious their race and language.
And non pashtu speaking pashtuns often becomes the victim of mockery by those who speak their language well. Good or bad its true. Regarding your question. I have found that their is no any tribe like mughal pathan (sorry to hurt your feelings). Those mughals who live in pashtun countries are treated as pashtuns by outside people like punjabis, sindhi's etc. But Pashtun tribes do not recognize them as pashtun even though they speak pashto fluently. I have some relatives who call themselves mughal pathan but they face same dilemma. |
Posted By: Ali Zaib Khan
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2019 at 06:47
| Hellow every one my name is ali zaib khan I am Mugha Pathan i am looking For Shajrah of Mughal Pathans If Any one have it kindly let me know. Its a great favour. |
Posted By: Ali Zaib Khan
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2019 at 06:49
| Brother i am also a Mughal Pathan kindly if your dada and nani has their Shajrah kindly me know i want to look into it have some confusion about it. |