Mughal - Chaghtai (Clan)
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Discription: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26143
Printed Date: 27-Apr-2024 at 13:19
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Mughal - Chaghtai (Clan)
Posted By: yas245
Subject: Mughal - Chaghtai (Clan)
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 17:17
| Hi, I'm looking for information on the Mughal Clan ; Chaghatai. Who are they and What are Physical characteristics?? |
Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 18:20
|
Moved to Questions and Answers.
------------- |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 03:26
|
The Chaghtai mongols were the splinter of the Mongol empire that ruled in central asia. ------------- |
Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 03:51
|
Omar pretty much summed it up. Genghis' second son Chaghatay was dealt one of the four successor uluses - the Ulus Chagatay. This khanate covered central asia, including parts of modern-day Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgzystan. So who were the Chagadayids? There were no one people living under the Chagatay khanate - it was a mix. Turco-Islamic featured prominently, and a shift in Turco-Mongol groups occurred over time. Numerous tribes existed under the Chagatayid khan, such as the Barlas (in Transoxiana, where Tamerlane hailed from), Qipchaqs and Apardi. I would imagine their physical characteristics featured a blend of each of these tribes. I know nearly nothing about the ethnic history of central asia - maybe Seko or Sarmat could help out. Regards, - Knights - ------------- |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 20:34
|
Thanks for the info, but please do write more if you know anything else Apparently ... "Chaghadai is a version of "Chagan" (white) formed using the –dai suffix as described in "On the Documentation and Construction of Period Mongolian Names" by Baras-aghur Naran. This article defines Chaghadai as "he who is white." Can anyone confirm this? As this could be a possible physical characteristic. So, is Chaghtai a Tribe or a Clan? Furthermore, my heritage is from the Mughal Chaghtai Clan/Tribe, but in addition to this, I was told I was a Mughal Chaghtai Pathan. Now this confuses me, Mughals can't be Pathan can they? Surprisingly I did a little research and i found a Wikipedia link (not the best of places) that categorised - a Pathan Mughal as a clan from the Mughal Tribe. There's no info on the actual Clan but its listed there. Or could it be, as my family come from Pakistan, some characteristics such as light skin, coloured eyes, robust body, which is usually associated with Pathan's, may have been the reason for why we might of been labelled as Pathan. Can someone please enlighten me on this ... Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_(tribe) |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 00:23
|
One thing for sure, you can only be a pathan 'or' a Mughal, since you can't have two fathers. ------------- |
Posted By: Conservative
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 15:29
|
Original Chaghatai are descended from the line of Genghis Khan. So if you are what you claim to be then your paternal line should be Mongol.
As for the Mughals, foreign Muslims in India that came from the Middle East and Central Asia to serve the Mughal empire were all dubbed generically as "Mughals" by the Indians. This was done regardless of where they actually came from or whether they served in military, government or commercial posts. They formed the ruling and upper class in the Mughal empire but their numbers were always very small and diminished substantially during Aurangzeb's reign. After Augrangzeb their arrival and service stopped altogether.
I think it is extremely unlikely that people from the subcontinent that claim to be "Mughal" are descended from the Chaghatai or any other non-Indian faction that served them. These names and titles are more likely to have been assumed by Indian converts to Islam to try and disassociate themselves from the majority Hendus and to gain favour with their rulers. But you can always try to find out your roots by testing your Y-DNA. You can do this with companies like Family Tree DNA, Genebase etc
As for physical characteristics, by looking at Persian miniatures and their Mughal miniature off-shoots i think it is obvious that the Chaghatai were oriental looking, like all other Turko-Mongols. They probably would have looked little different from the Uzbeks that now inhabit much of what was once their 'turf'. ------------- ایران زمین |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 19:53
|
There is a region in the northeast of Iran with the name of Joghatay: http://itouchmap.com/?c=ir&UF=-3842839&UN=-5081704&DG=ADMD - http://itouchmap.com/?c=ir&UF=-3842839&UN=-5081704&DG=ADMD people of this region have Mongoloid features. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 23:09
|
Moved to Ethnic history of Central Asia. ------------- Σαυρομάτης 
|
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2008 at 14:03
|
I'm in search of my identity, but i'm getting really confused about it.
I can't get much information from my family, because unfortunatly they
themself don't know much and they are unlikely to know because of
certain family circumstances. So as far as i have been told about my
identity is that were ' Mughal Chaghtai Pathan ' .. Even my
understanding was you couldn't be the two together and like someone
said in the earlier post that you cant be the two, However, nor did my ancestor's have Chaghtai as a title or as part of their name, One thing is for certain they did have 'Khan' as a surname though , not like that is much help as nearly everyone is called 'Khan', irrespective of what background they have. Also, how exactly do define someone to be a 'Mughal' or someone to be a 'Pathan' ... Could you be classified as a Pathan if you were residing in the Pashtoon areas ??? Again i appreciate everyone that is giving information on this ... |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2008 at 17:44
|
I guess there could be 2 possibilities of origins of your family.
1. They could be descendants of Pathans who served in Babur Army thus they were Pathans related to Moghul Chagatais.
2. They could be descendants of some Turks who settled among the Pathans and got assimilated.
------------- Σαυρομάτης
|
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2008 at 22:35
I guess i can't really be certain about my identity ..... But these two possibilities are probably close enough .. thanks dude Also i'd just like to ask.. do these possibilities have any base, in terms of historical evidence? |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2008 at 18:57
|
Dear yas245,
Peraps this information could be of interest for you.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Chagatai-Turk - http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Chagatai-Turk
Regarding the two possibilities.
These are just historical facts that a lot of Babur Turks (Chagatai Turks if you will) settled in Afghanistan as well as that the large part of his army consisted of Pathans.
The primary source? - Babur-nama.
Babur himself is buried in Afghanistan BTW. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
|
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2008 at 08:56
|
Thanks for that Sarmat, I had previosly looked at that link, and intrestingly enough i realised that those people who have 'Mirza' as a Prefix, or 'Beg' as a Suffix are presumably from Chaghtai decent. As far as i know, no one in my paternal line had kept either of the two. A choice i'm probably considering is testing my Y-DNA, as Conservative mentioned. Though the cost is a bit exspensive. Also is Chaghtai is clan or a tribe? and how do u differ between the two ? |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2008 at 16:46
|
Well, usually "a clan" is a smaller unit within "a tribe" so, one tribe can have many tribes within in.
The link says that Chaghtais often have 'Mirza' and 'Beg' prefix, but often doesn't mean always. So, the absence of those from you relatives family names doesn't mean that they aren't related to Chaghtais. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 14:46
Chaghtai is the name of a man and not a section of a clan. There may be people who name themselves as being the descendants of Chughtai as their second part of name. There is no specification of any character relating the term Chughtai but considered to be of the family of Chughtai with the same features as Mongols. It is generally used as for Mongoloid. The names like Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and others are all the split areas of the land of Jihun and Sihun(Amu and Syr) rivers which is as a whole Turkistan only. The communist regime of Russia divided the land into provinces for their convenience of administration.
|
Posted By: mughal-steel
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 08:58
|
I am from the Chaghtai clan hailing from Jhelum,Punjab.According to our history my people came with Babur.His family is aslo confusedly called as Chaghtai by some historians though he was from Barlas tribe,a Turkicized but orignally a Mongol people.Baburs ancestor Temur claimed same ancestory as Changez Khan.Both conquerors believed to be descendants of same ancestor.Chaghtai,wild horse,was the second son of Changez Khan and ruled Central Asia and some parts of Afghanistan.There are many Chaghtai clans in sub-continent,not all being orignal. ------------- brj |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 19:55
| My Dear Mughal-Steel have two books from Urdu Bazar Lahore, Tuzk-e Taimuri and Tuzk-e Babri, the memoirs of both Taimur and Babar; only then you will be aware of their families. Then make known your own clan to us. |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 14:02
|
Since the only information i have is that my grandfather was from Jullandar, and with no real information of whether he was a migrant from the Afghan lands, even though it would explain the possible Pashtun inheritance or maybe even the Mughal inheritance, does that conclude that he was a Punjabi ?? btw is being a Pashtun not just a linguistic feature , as Punjabi is, or are they attached with culture, geography, history ? |
Posted By: hmmm
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 19:02
yas245 you have asked good question? I think it is more than just a linguistic feature. I will give you some examples: In Indian cricket team there is brother duo who are talented players namely, Irfan Pathan and Yousuf Pathan. They call themselves Pathans as is eviden but have been removed from their original homelands for some time. Purists might not consider them as one but then it is just ones nazariya to decide......
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 19:15
| It is the link of your family that you can say about. There have been more Pushtuns in India and Pakistan than Afghanistan, also among the Pushtuns of the Afghan land there are many who do not have links to their parent tribe. For example many Ghilzais are not nomads and live in cities either in Afghanistan and Pakistan totally cut off from their traditional manners. They can not be called as not Ghilzais. Similarly the Pushtuns of Mianwali district of Punjab have adopted Punjabi language and are pathans by their clan which they can mention. Larger groups of population of Pathans have been since long living in India and they are Pathans. No one can deny that. The Tartars and Turks used to live in Altai Mountains and Gobi desert and used to raise cattle. Now you can not say a Crimean that he is not a Tartar or Erdoghan not a Turk. |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 12:55
| considering my situtation, would you think that a Y-dna test will be usefull and relevant ?? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 15:31
| It is not upto the mark or may be I am not used to it as much as the experts. It can be useful to match close family ties but not on a larger scale. You can just compare the body structure, mentality and manners of massess as an easy access. |
Posted By: alish
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2009 at 08:40
Mughal clan - this is the name given by english, or russian, no matter what, those nations who most name as mughals, didn't even know what mughal word mean and didn't identify themselves as mughals... rather identified themselves as turkiy and their country was in Ferghana Valley - administrative territory centered in Andijan city...
In terms of physical characteristics you can reffer to Babur's predecessors' - temuriylar.
|
Posted By: alish
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2009 at 08:48
|
EVERYBODY.... JUST VISIT FERGHANA VALLEY AND YOU WILL SEE WHO HOW MUGHALS LOOKED LIKE AND ETC....
|
Posted By: mughal-steel
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 06:09
|
Mughal word comes fron Mongol,a people inhabiting Kerulen river in Mongolia in 9th Century.Later these people ,after defeating Chineese ,moved west and conquered various people thus establishing the worlds largest empire.They were supported by many Turkish ethnic groups as well.Chughtai clan stems from Genghis Khan's second son Chughtai.His descendants rules some parts of central asia for some time but their power was shattered by Ameer Taimur Berlas,who claimed kinship with Genghis Khan.His descendant Babur the Tiger,whose mother was from Chughtai clan emerged from Ferghana and later conquered Afghanistan and India.Berlas were a Mongol people too though later Turkiscized by living with Turks.Ironically his line was wrongly termed as Chughtai by historians though he never claimed it. ------------- brj |
Posted By: mughal-steel
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 06:31
|
My dear sir,
I have read all these since I was in Matric and read a lot after that also! ------------- brj |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 15:22
|
Hey, thanks for keeping me informed with information. Anyhow, i have yet been halted in my research due to a certain curiosity. It may be insignificant, though, I'd like to know whether there is any difference(apart from obvious spelling) with the names 'Chaghtai' , 'Chughtai' & 'Chagatta'. ???? I have been told there is a prominent difference between the two former names(in blue) than the latter (in red) . Could any one shed any light on this ? |
Posted By: mughal-steel
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 11:04
|
Dear Yas,
As far as I know there is no difference.Chagatta is a local form, in rural Punjab,of Chughtai. ------------- brj |
Posted By: mughal-steel
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 11:11
|
One thing though..Every central asian coming to India was initially called Mughal,whatever his actual race ,by locals.Later,as Babur came from old Chughtai domains,his progeny was called Chughtai by locals.Though Babur was a Berlas.Really a confusing issue. ------------- brj |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 12:24
|
Babur never referred to himself as a Mongol or any other ethnic term except being a Turk, Mughal, Mongol etc are all misnomers, if you want to know about Babur he wrote an autobiography everything you want to know is in there.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 15:31
|
Yes, the book of Babur is felt with pride of being Turk and nostalgia for Ma wara'un-Nahr. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
|
Posted By: man2rk
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 16:37
|
Most part of China`s xinjiang province was called as Mughalistan for centuries although the native people are turkic speaking. Here can be found many place names link with mughals. The language of "Baburnameh" is just written in the language of people still living here. ------------- History is something that victors write on the back of losers. |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 21:20
I really do think there might be a slight difference. I believed that Chughtai was a unanimous pronounciation, as this is how it is commmonly spelt. Though the slight difference with Chagatta might be in relation to belonging from a more 'central asian' geographical location, and not just a 'rural' form in speech. I hope i have made it clear to understand. |
Posted By: mughal-steel
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 06:54
|
You have a right to what you believe.I am a Chagatta,hailing from rural Punjab,our counterparts in cities are called Chughtais.Our old folks have kept the traditions alive and make no difference of the two names. ------------- brj |
Posted By: mughal-steel
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 07:03
|
As for Babur..his ancestor Taimur claimed kinship with Genghis Khan.Old annals also support this as Barulas Mongols(Barlas)participated in Khawarzim campaigns.There was supposed to be a pact between brothers,Kabul Khan and Kajuli Bahadur,ancestors of Genghis and Taimur on a steel plate.The plate was kept by Taimur and shown to Chughtai ruler of his time. ------------- brj |
Posted By: yas245
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 14:02
|
I did a quick search on Google and there doesent seem to many search pages on 'Mughal Chaggata'. However there is one Indian Tourism website and it claims : One Bhatti scion-Gaj Singh had founded the city of Ghazni in Afghanistan but ultimately lost it to forces from Khorasan. One of his grandsons reclaimed Ghazni, embraced Islam, and came to be called Chagattas (Mughals). They later plundered the land of their ancestors between 1000 and 1025 A.D. Again, led by Babar they came to found the Mughal Empire in India. I don't know the History of Ghazni to comment on that, but a google search on it suggest this story isn't really true. Could you comment on this? |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 14:13
|
My comment is that this paragraph is complete nonsense. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
|
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 15:23
|
Çağataylar ( Çağatays ) were the most caltural (most interested with calture) Turkish tribe. ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK 
|
Posted By: mughal-steel
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2009 at 04:31
|
Dear Yas..bit farfetched..never heard of it.Yes Chauhans had been present in Afghanistan but Bhattis calling themselves as Chagatta and ruling that region. Babur never even mentioned such people ------------- brj |
Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2009 at 20:43
Not just turkish, but turkic my friend. :) There is some differencies between these words. Mughals also builded Taj-Mahal in India, they bring architecs and engineers for this work from Ottoman empire.
------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif"> 
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2009 at 21:31
|
I wrote them wrong, I noticed just (: ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
|
Posted By: alish
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2009 at 10:49
By the way, i also read a lots of fairy tales some time before, Sir!
|