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Bosnian Army

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Post-Classical Middle East
Forum Discription: SW Asia, the Middle East and Islamic civilizations from 600s - 1900 AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2561
Printed Date: 23-Apr-2024 at 07:14
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Topic: Bosnian Army
Posted By: Bosnjo
Subject: Bosnian Army
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 10:59

Thanks to our Muslims brothers who supported us in our fight, especially thanks to the Arabs, Iranians, Turks, Pakistanis...

Bosnian Armies on the March to take the biggest Serbian Town and then to end the Serbian Republic.

A western journalist was with the 5. Corpus to cover the story, the 5. Corpus was a religous mixed part of the Bosnian army,

http://www.umsa.org/umsavideo/ratnivedeo/Sana256-I-dijo.ram - http://www.umsa.org/umsavideo/ratnivedeo/Sana256-I-dijo.ram

http://www.umsa.org/umsavideo/ratnivedeo/Sana256-II-dijo.ram - http://www.umsa.org/umsavideo/ratnivedeo/Sana256-II-dijo.ram

 

Here also a parade of the 3. Corpus, the parade begins after 15 min.

http://www.umsa.org/umsavideo/ratnivedeo/ZenickaSmotra28.ram - http://www.umsa.org/umsavideo/ratnivedeo/ZenickaSmotra28.ram

 



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I am heavely armed, entirely sick and extremly nationalistic.



Replies:
Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 07:56
Turkish Amy will always be in service for our brothers.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 12:07
Turkish army is the most effectful one in Bosnia, especially in Sarajevo (Saraybosna). Our army helps Bosnians whenever they need, and our country always supported our brothers in Bosnia...

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Posted By: akýncý
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 14:46
Of course the Turkish army will be the most effective one there for the serbians massackkered the Bosnians;our brothers.

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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 16:51
LOL funny posts

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[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum


Posted By: rhazes
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 03:53
I still remember the Iran-Bosnia arms hearings in the Clinton years. No Muslim country did enough to help, but Bosnians are a resilient people. Thanks for the links, they brought a smile to my face.


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Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 03:00
Im wondering guys, I mean you obviously back the whole Bosnian liberation movement and succession from Serbia. But Im pretty sure you would be stoutly against a succession from the Kurds. Do you guys really have a way to justify but not the latter?

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Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 03:34

Iskender did we  killed Kurds?

Population  growth rate of kurds is higher than rate of Turkey. They have  politic powes, one of our best  president is Kurds.Lets  dont forget other kurdish  politicians. noone  even our  nicely  wolfs  dont say anything  against them, because  They are not Turk.We made some mistake  against  them but we  are  not like serbs. If we are like  serbs, I will  support Kurds.

But well  this is  after all  comes  from  an  Albanian, who dont  support kosova albanians liberation.

And  what rhazes said  is true.

No Muslim Country helped them enough.  We failed  too.

 

 

 



Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 04:56

Im wondering guys, I mean you obviously back the whole Bosnian liberation movement and succession from Serbia. But Im pretty sure you would be stoutly against a succession from the Kurds. Do you guys really have a way to justify but not the latter?

Of course,we kill terrorist PKK fans because of their bombing and suiciding crimes.

But Bosnians did nothing to be slaughtered.

The only fault of Bosnians was living between the whole maniac nationalistic Serbs,Croats etc.



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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 05:19
Iskender we have no problems with Kurds in Turkey.they have every rights. and most of them don't want to separate but you will not hear their voices.you will only hear those separatists voices because they use unhuman ways to be heard.that's the way it is.that's the system.and do you know who against those unhuman separatists most?The Kurds themselves.and only because of a small amount of them whole world thinks we treat kurds bad.And some countries for sure uses this against Turkey.

Now, if you hear a kurd saying he's having a problem that means a turk having that problem as well.because it's the same rule and it applies to everybody equally.I must admit we have many problems but again no country is perfect.




Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 18:17

But well  this is  after all  comes  from  an  Albanian, who dont  support kosova albanians liberation.

Who says I dont support the liberation of Kosovo? I do, but I also recognize the problems it will face. I personally wished it could stay peacefully in Serbia as Serbia would be fully able to provide care to it, but that cannot happen as it is far too much of a clash of cultures. What I am against however is Kosovo coming into Albania. Too many things have become different between us to to happen now, Kosovar are far too religious to come into our society and on many occasions I have seen them walk around with vieled women, somethign that is not tolerated in Albania, on top of that their langauge has evolved differently, their land is poor and unstable etc etc. Maybe in 50-100 years yes, but for now, I would not support it coming to Albania. Far too much of a culture shock. To be blunt, they are far too Islamic to be accepted into Albania.



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Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 02:58

Iskender Bey

is this only your idea or most of the  albanians think this way?

If I am not wrong, you are not muslim. What are muslim  albanians thinking about this issue?

And after 100 year, why do you think they still prefer to join  with you? If you dont help them, when they are under difficulties.

It looks like you are giving  away, one million of  your people.

 



Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 03:19

is this only your idea or most of the  albanians think this way?

Communism can have some damaging effects on spirituality. Albanians in general look down on religion and being religious is always crutinized.

If I am not wrong, you are not muslim. What are muslim  albanians thinking about this issue?

Much of todays "muslim Albanians" are made up of Agnostics and athiests, the most religious people in Albania are the christians. Islam in Albania was never something that held much spiritual value. We do have religious leaders, they are few, the Bektashi sect in Albania is a religious one and they would lovve the Kosovar to come in, but they are a minority.

And after 100 year, why do you think they still prefer to join  with you? If you dont help them, when they are under difficulties.

You got me wrong Murtaza. I am more then ready to do what i can foir them. Mt family sheltered many during the conflicts, Albanians also shletered Bosnians and vice versa during all the conflicts. An economic union is fine. but a full union would be too damaging to Albania since Kosov is 70% jobless. The people are poor and it would mean Albania would have to carry the economy. We cant do it. However we will support them in every other way.

It looks like you are giving  away, one million of  your people.

Actually its two million. According to Serbs we breed like rats.

http://www.omda.bg/imir/studies/alban_id18.html - this article explains the religious situation in Albanian history throughout the times.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 04:28
Albanians are dominantly Muslims. You cant deny your past and values. You may be a Christian but %755 of your nation isnt. In fact, Albanians were one of the most loyal nations to Bektashi sect, found by a Turkmen from Khorasan, Haji Bektash Veli.

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Posted By: Kenaney
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 14:04

Let me say who Iskender Bey Albo actually is;

-nationalistic christian alb who doesnt wanna speak of their muslim ottoman history or doesnt accept it

-who doesnt accept that in ALbany Turks lived and/or ruled

-who has a great sempaty to greeks whyle in greece a albanian cant even wear the greek flag or event cant be a teacher...

Im very tired of this nationalistic bullsh*t in this forum, pan-albanizm, pan-hellenizm, pannehoofd iranizm, even pan-turanizm...

ALL OF THEM ARE DISGUSTING!!! STOP THIS PLEASE STOP IT, IT MAKES ME SICK!!!

The most thing that hurts me is that (allmost) all of them are the neighbourcountry's of Turkey... We are surrounded by those ......



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OUT OF LIMIT


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 14:48

-who has a great sempaty to greeks whyle in greece a albanian cant even wear the greek flag or event cant be a teacher...

Sympathetic? hardly, however I do realize that Greece is a neighbor that has harbored 400,000 Albanians, without even asking for one. Most of whom are illegal. The cultural shock to Greece was beyond anything I could imagine and so for me to badmouth Greeks would be a terrible for me to do. Secondly, Greece is my nations neighbor, tensions between two next door neighbors is not something I care for. Thats why I want my nation to work harder to improve relatiosn between neighbors. With Serbia, I can forget good relations for another 200 years  But with Greece, things can definately improve in the next coming decades. Another reason is because I have some Greek family members.

As for Ottoman history. No I don't deny it. Ever. However Albanian historians today do work very hard to try and downplay it. Add this to the fact that religion has never been a big factor for Albanians, especially for muslim Albs which was more of an economic change. Catholic Albs are different, they had to keep their religion to protect their identity, thats why they are more religious. Me? I dont a god. Im just....me.  



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 13:04
In history, religion shaped Albanian culture. Most of the Albanian origined Ottoman poets/literature men reached their levels just by religious knowledge, ph,losophy etc. Bektashi sect was improved by Albanians, religion made them a nation. And now you come and tell us about a couple of Albanian Catholics. Shame...

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Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 16:22
And now you come and tell us about a couple of Albanian Catholics. Shame...


Bektashi sect is only 20% of Albanian muslims. Most are devoted but fleeting, and were especially persecuted during Hoxha's time. them including all other religions, Albania is still declared an athiest country today, just that saying Jesus or Muhammed is no longer something that can bring about a sever punishment.

Secondly, I dont expect you to know this history. But there was a strong and growing Albanian culture pre-Ottoman days, many of our leaders(including our nearly deafied hero, Scanderbeg) were Catholics. Even today our muslim writers(most notably Ismail Kadare) look back at pre-Ottoman culture and something that needs to be revived. There is nothing shameful about that. our adoption of Islam was not a natural adoption.

Religion did not make us a nation, our language and culture did. Religion took shotgun to that. With Albanian, you are first an Albanian then the religion. And for northern Albanians, Bible of Kuran ride shotgun when the Kanuni of Leke is involved.

Btw, the first Albanian poet is considered to be Giulio Variboba, a Catholic Monk.

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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 16:26

not natural adoption? is this mean Ottomans forced you?

So If It becomes natural, there would be something shameful?

 



Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 17:08
If people adopt a religion with no polical or economical motivation then it has a much stronger chance of lasting. However this is not the issue with most Balkan muslims. For the Bosnians, its become a sort of thing they like to dangle over the Serbs, their identity is based off Islam, without Islam, Bosnians are just Croats and Serbs, with the Kosovar is the similar issue, culturally surrounded bya people of different religion who despise the latter, samething, this is why I want Kosovo to go independant, so it does not have to be in this situation. Same with the Iliriden, of Fyrom. Had all these peopel been given complete freedom and had the Serbs not been so aggressive over the fact that these peoipel are muslims, you would have seen the religiousness die out due to cultural isolation, but the Serbs acted idiotically brutally massacering thousands etc etc. which only enforced the religiouness on these people(Bosnians and Kosovar). Albanians were never in this however, the entire Albanian identity had no religion in place in fact it was the only nation in the Balkans that did not place its indentity on religion but on Albanianess(Hence the poem "Religion of Albanians is Albanianism"). This on top of the fact that the Ottoman Empire was dying and very much isolating Albania, on top of that was often working against Albanias interests reading to partition the land among Serbs and Greeks, and making the muslims, the original high class society, be like the others. However, the Christians in Albania lived for 500 years in an enviroment that was like the Kosovar Albs and Bosnians today, surrounded by converters, so their religion is held tighter where as the muslims in Albania were the highclass and thus not really attached to the religion as it was taken as more of a economical thing then spiritual. Get it?

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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 17:17

If people adopt a religion with no polical or economical motivation then it has a much stronger chance of lasting. However this is not the issue with most Balkan muslims.

Two mistake in two sentence,

Firstly you cannot know why they converted.

Secondly, Converted people are not the people live now, Religion of islam is religion of their birth. So they will not think, our fathers converted this religion because of political or economical motivation. So lets change it.

They will think, we are muslim. So your historical investigation dont hold much water.

But after all you know your people better.

 

 

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 23:05
I'm so supportive of Bosnians, I'd even go there myself to help
out.


Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 03:02
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

If people adopt a religion with no polical or economical motivation then it has a much stronger chance of lasting. However this is not the issue with most Balkan muslims. For the Bosnians, its become a sort of thing they like to dangle over the Serbs, their identity is based off Islam, without Islam, Bosnians are just Croats and Serbs, with the Kosovar is the similar issue, culturally surrounded bya people of different religion who despise the latter, samething, this is why I want Kosovo to go independant, so it does not have to be in this situation. Same with the Iliriden, of Fyrom. Had all these peopel been given complete freedom and had the Serbs not been so aggressive over the fact that these peoipel are muslims, you would have seen the religiousness die out due to cultural isolation, but the Serbs acted idiotically brutally massacering thousands etc etc. which only enforced the religiouness on these people(Bosnians and Kosovar). Albanians were never in this however, the entire Albanian identity had no religion in place in fact it was the only nation in the Balkans that did not place its indentity on religion but on Albanianess(Hence the poem "Religion of Albanians is Albanianism"). This on top of the fact that the Ottoman Empire was dying and very much isolating Albania, on top of that was often working against Albanias interests reading to partition the land among Serbs and Greeks, and making the muslims, the original high class society, be like the others. However, the Christians in Albania lived for 500 years in an enviroment that was like the Kosovar Albs and Bosnians today, surrounded by converters, so their religion is held tighter where as the muslims in Albania were the highclass and thus not really attached to the religion as it was taken as more of a economical thing then spiritual. Get it?


PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON MY NATIONALITY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PISSED OF CHRISTIAN ALBANIAN IN A COUNTRY DOMINATED BY ISLAMIC ALBAINIANS. 

 A - THERE WAS  A INDEPENDENT BOSNIAN KINGDOM LONG BEFORE THE OTTOMANS CAME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE WERE EITHER BOGMILS OF KRSTJANI - THE LOCAL INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA
SOME WERE ORTODOX SOME WERE CATHOLIC

B - THE THEORY THAT BOSNIANS ARE EITHER CONVERTED CROATS OR SERBS IS ABSURD BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FROM SERBIA OR CROATIA THEY ARE BOSNAINS FROM BOSNNIA A MEDIEVAL KINGDOM THAT WAS CONQUERED BY THE OTTOMANS AND IT ADOPTED ISLAM AND THERE WERE INTERMARIAGES BETWEEN TURKS AND BOSNIANS.  IT IS SERBIAN PROPAGANDA THAT SPREAD THIS IDEA BACK IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY SO THAT IT COULD CLAIM BOSNIA.

C - THE BOSNIAN IDENTITY IS AMPLIFIED BY ISLAM AND OTTOMAN HERITAGE IT DOES NOT CENTER ON IT.

D - DONT EVER STATE ANTYHING ON A COUNTRY TOPIC YOU HAVE NO f**kING CLUE WHAT SO EVER ABOUT

WHY ARE WE DISCUSING ALBANIA AND THE "ALLEGED" MASS APEAL AMONG KURDS FOR BREAKAWAY FROM TURKEY IN A B0SNIAN THREAD




Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 03:32
Something got up someones ass....

PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON MY NATIONALITY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PISSED OF CHRISTIAN ALBANIAN IN A COUNTRY DOMINATED BY ISLAMIC ALBAINIANS.


Lol, I am from a half Christian half muslim family, I myself am an athiest. This supposed "muslim domination" does not take into account athiests and agnostics that have developed in Albania throughout the century. My entire "muslim" side has never stepped into a mosque or touched a Kuran. The reality is that muslims in Albania number around 45less if you look at religious ones, these are just the ones who would say they are muslim because they were born to muslim parents) which a heavy % of Albanians being agnostics today.

THERE WAS A INDEPENDENT BOSNIAN KINGDOM LONG BEFORE THE OTTOMANS CAME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE WERE EITHER BOGMILS OF KRSTJANI - THE LOCAL INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA SOME WERE ORTODOX SOME WERE CATHOLIC


There was an Independant Kingdom of Montenegro too, called Zeta, doesnt mean Montenegrins are not Serbs.
Before Ottoman invasion however, Bosnia was mostly a geographical term, nonetheless, the people there have developed a different identity for themselves today.

As for the Kurd thing, I was simply asking if there was any hypocracy in the mentality since most people, as I, have a view that most Kurds in Turkey wanted their own land, hence maps like "Kurdistan" spread throught the Internet.




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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 03:58
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO



As for the Kurd thing, I was simply asking if there was any hypocracy in the mentality since most people, as I, have a view that most Kurds in Turkey wanted their own land, hence maps like "Kurdistan" spread throught the Internet.


Most Kurds? No they're not.the maps wasn't created by Turkish Kurds.it is a dream of iraqi Kurds and some other countries which also support terrorism and a separation of Turkey.you said it, hypocrasy it is.


Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 15:59
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

Something got up someones ass....

PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON MY NATIONALITY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PISSED OF CHRISTIAN ALBANIAN IN A COUNTRY DOMINATED BY ISLAMIC ALBAINIANS.


Lol, I am from a half Christian half muslim family, I myself am an athiest. This supposed "muslim domination" does not take into account athiests and agnostics that have developed in Albania throughout the century. My entire "muslim" side has never stepped into a mosque or touched a Kuran. The reality is that muslims in Albania number around 45less if you look at religious ones, these are just the ones who would say they are muslim because they were born to muslim parents) which a heavy % of Albanians being agnostics today.

THERE WAS A INDEPENDENT BOSNIAN KINGDOM LONG BEFORE THE OTTOMANS CAME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE WERE EITHER BOGMILS OF KRSTJANI - THE LOCAL INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA SOME WERE ORTODOX SOME WERE CATHOLIC


There was an Independant Kingdom of Montenegro too, called Zeta, doesnt mean Montenegrins are not Serbs.
Before Ottoman invasion however, Bosnia was mostly a geographical term, nonetheless, the people there have developed a different identity for themselves today.

As for the Kurd thing, I was simply asking if there was any hypocracy in the mentality since most people, as I, have a view that most Kurds in Turkey wanted their own land, hence maps like "Kurdistan" spread throught the Internet.




Yes Montenegro/ crna gora is a nationality  because no montenegrin calls himself a serb, they call themselves montenegrins.
Serbia is a geographic term so you know what I am going to say that there is no serbian nationality but they are bosnian orthodox chrisitians that developed a distinct nationality after a while.  Because as you know the Bosnian King did crown himself king of serbia in 1377 he suported the serbian prince on his claims of serbia and never conquered the whole country but still they are bosnians by that theory. please spare me your bullsh*t.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 16:14

Bosnians over fascist and genocidal racist Serbs any day.

Long live Bosnia.



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Posted By: Al Bedawi
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 07:15
I hate to say this But I like both Bosnians and Serbs.

unless I am ignorant I had allways thought the

Bosniak was no different than a Serb or Croat.

The Only differences between a serb and a croat is that a Croat s more western oriented due to catholocism and the ties between Croats and Austrians and Italians.

Serbs however look towards russia.


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An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.


Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 19:50
Originally posted by Al Bedawi

I hate to say this But I like both Bosnians and Serbs.

unless I am ignorant I had allways thought the

Bosniak was no different than a Serb or Croat.

The Only differences between a serb and a croat is that a Croat s more western oriented due to catholocism and the ties between Croats and Austrians and Italians.

Serbs however look towards russia.


Bosnian from bosnia

bosnians have three religions islam cahtolic orthodox

the krsstjani and bogomils converted en masse to islam and mixed with turks during the Ottoman empire

the catholic bosnians and orhodox bosnian stayed same religion

the krstanji was the name of the Independent Bosnian Church that had no ties to Rome or Constatniople

serbians and croatians live in bosnia too and they are iether catholic or orthodox

all three natioalites come from slavic tribes that invaded the are in the 7th ct

there is a difference because there were three kingdoms a kingdom of croatia which lasted up to 11th ct and was annexed by hungary

the bosnian kingdom that lasted till 1463

and the serbian which lasted till 1390s

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 16:13
I was in Iran during the Bosnian war. The Iranian govt was constantly airing television propaganda, in an attempt to get Iranians to volunteer and fight in Bosnia. The music they used sounded like religious/nationalist Bosnian combat songs, i thought they were pretty inspiring even if i didnt understand them. Is there any source for these songs on the internet?


Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 02:09

in the Massacre of Srebrenicia, more than 7,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were murdered after the town of Srebrenica fell to Bosnian Serb forces, commanded by Krstic, in the summer of 1995. 

The civilized countries of Europe just stood up watching. BBC itself comments : "Srebrenica was supposed to be a UN-designated safe area but UN forces in the town proved unable or unwilling to help its Muslim population. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1470654.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1470654.stm

Without the courage & bravery of the Muslim Bosnians and the help of their brothers from all the Islamic world, where would be Bosnia now? divided? Actually not even divided, will be empty. Serbians don't conquer cities only, they massacre populations!

They say, in Bosnia, ethnic cleansing happened. I just wonder why is it ethnic if all Croats, Bosnians, and Serbs are of the same race? Only Albanians are different. Clearly, it was nothing but religious cleansing in Bosnia. I'm just proud that I know personally 2 older people who joined the War in Bosnia. One is back. The other one is missing till today.



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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 06:49

never stepped into a mosque or touched a Kuran

Maybe because they are Bektashis or Alevis...

Believe it or not, Albania was the capital of the Bektashi sect, a sect found by a Turkmen of Khorasan, Haci Bektash Veli...

Albanians were always one of the most important subjects of the empire's ulema. Half of the sadrazams were Albanian origined. Albania was the last Balkan country to become independent from Ottoman rule. Because they didnt even fight to become independent. They were happy and totally loyal to the Ottoman Empire.

The majority of citizens of Albania are secular in orientation after decades of rigidly enforced atheism under the Communist regime, which ended in 1990. Despite such secularism, most citizens traditionally associate themselves with a religious group. Citizens of Muslim background make up the largest traditional religious group (estimated at 65 to 70 percent of the population) and are divided into two communities: those associated with a moderate form of Sunni Islam and those associated with the Bektashi school (a particularly liberal form of Shi'a Sufism). In 1925 after the revolution of Ataturk in Turkey, the country became the world center of Bektashism, although it has not been recognized as such by the Government. Unlike traditional Muslims, the Bektashi did not forbid followers to drink alcohol or eat pork, did not require women to be veiled, and used a less formal type of prayer. Bektashis are estimated to represent approximately 20% of the country's Muslim population.

Muslims are spread throughout the country but are concentrated mostly in the middle of the country and to a lesser extent in the south. Orthodox remain mainly in the south, and Catholics in the north of the country; however, this division is not strict, particularly in the case of many urban centers, which have mixed populations. The Greek minority, concentrated in the south, belongs to the Orthodox Church. No data is available on active participation in formal religious services, but estimates are that 30 to 40 percent of the population practices a religion. Foreign religious representatives, including Muslim clerics, Christian and Bahá'í missionaries, members of Jehovah's Witnesses, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), and many others freely carry out religious activities.

According to the State Committee on Cults, as of 2002, there were about 17 different Muslim societies and groups active in the country; some of these groups were foreign. There were 31 Christian societies representing more than 45 different organizations and 500 to 600 Christian and Bahá'í missionaries. The largest foreign missionary groups were American, British, Italian, Greek, and Arab.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2005 at 19:40

Selam Alejkum jarane.. sta ima?

Živela Bosna

ja volim bosna i sve iz bosna

allahimant



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2005 at 19:47

Originally posted by DFront21

The music they used sounded like religious/nationalist Bosnian combat songs, i thought they were pretty inspiring even if i didnt understand them. Is there any source for these songs on the internet?

yes there are, but I'm not sure what songs you're looking for, however try looking for the one called "Bosna Je Jedna Jedina", you could find it easily, it is great.



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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 11:48
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

Im wondering guys, I mean you obviously back the whole Bosnian liberation movement and succession from Serbia. But Im pretty sure you would be stoutly against a succession from the Kurds. Do you guys really have a way to justify but not the latter?


We did not "succeed" from Serbia.  That would imply we were a part of Serbia, which we were not.

Even historically speaking, Bosnia existed before the first Serbian kingdom was fully consolidated. Before the Ottoman Empire, we were also members of the Bosnian Church - which was not aligned with any faith, but had closer ties to Roman Catholicism and Croatia than to Serbia.

Our King, Tvrtko Kotromanic, conquered Serbia at one point.

In fact, the only time Bosnia was not recognized as such was from 1918-1945. Following WWI we were incorporated into the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes. During WWII we were incorporated into Croatia. After WWII we were incorporated into Yugoslavia, as the Yugoslav Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

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[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">


Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:11
so who are the Bosniaks then? can we say they are Slavic Muslims?

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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:23
Yes, we're Slavic Muslims.

When the Slavs arrived here, they settled what would become Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia. Over the centuries, we began to develop our own, distinct, regional cultures. The introduction of Christianity in this part of the whole made this process faster. Croatia aligned itself with Rome, Serbia with Byzantium, but Bosnia developed it's own, distinct form of Christianity - the Bosnian Church, whose members are usually called Bogumils.

For whatever reasons, some Croatian and Serbian historians believe Bosniaks are just "Muslim Serbs", or "Muslim Croats", usually they put us with the other ethnic group. This is quite easily disproven. Both countries have records of the speeches of King Tvrtko Kotromanic who always upheld the Bosniak identity during the days of the Bosnian Church. The Ottoman Empire provides even greater proof, with literally thousands of references to the Bosniak identity, and the Bosnian language. This easily disproves Croatian and Serbian nationalist claims that the term Bosniak was invented in the 1990s.

The problem is this. Imagine there is a family tree:

The Mother is Ivana, her three daughters are Svetlana, Amira, and Bojana.

Now you can say that Amira is descendant from Ivana, just as you can say Bosniaks are descendent from Slavs.

But you can't say Amira is descendant from Svetlana, just as you can't say Bosniaks are descendent from Serbs.

Svetlana (Serbs) and Amira (Bosniaks) are family, very close family. They share a racial, cultural, and linguistic heritage. But Bosniaks were never Orthodox Christians who referred to themselves as Serbs, they were never even the acknowledged subjects of the Byzantine Emperor. Sisters, yes, but Svetlana is in no way our Mother.

Make sense?


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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:31
I know there are Bosniak to Osmanlica dictionaries.Is Bosniak language  different from Hirvat or serbian or they are the same but have a few differences?

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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:32
thanks for the infos, yes they are all clear

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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:41
Originally posted by erci

I know there are Bosniak to Osmanlica dictionaries.Is Bosniak language  different from Hirvat or serbian or they are the same but have a few differences?


All three languages are more or less the same, especially in a proper, academic sense. They can be very different - but only if we're speaking in slang. For example...to say "Hey, how are you?" can go so many different ways...

Croatian: Bok, kako si?
Serbian: Zdravo, sta ima novo?
Bosnian: Selam, kak'si bejbi! Sta'ma!?

But all Slavic languages are more or less the same. Any Bosniak can understand spoken Russian well enough to know what is being talked about, even if they've never heard a word of Russian before in their lives. Only Ukrainian and Hungarian are truly unique and difficult for non-Ukrainians and non-Hungarians to understand at all.

In terms of actual differences...there's different accents and letter combinations. For example "News"...

Croatian: Vijesti
Serbian: Vesti
Bosnian: Vijesti/Vjesti in some areas

Then you have more Turkish and Arabic words present in Bosnian and Serbian than in Croatia. Also months are different.

Croatian: December = Sjecanje
Bosnian: December = Decembar

Etc, etc, etc.

Its like...

Croatian = British English
Serbian = American English
Bosnian = African American Slang


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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:54
well, yeah, they almost the same make sense actually.

Bosnian = African American Slang? now that's interesting Ukranian is closer to Polish I believe and they use more Latin letters than Russians.Hungarian(magyar) is belong to Ural-Altay language group which all the Turkic languages belong

thanks for the infos and welcome to AE


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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:56
Thanks, and hey, I have something you might enjoy - http://www.eurobosniamp3.com/Feminnem%20-%20Sevdim.mp3 - Bosnian girls singing in Turkish!

I bet you'll like our accents.






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Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 17:04

I have heard many Monteegrans claim that they are Serbs, and more or less the same. I have read that these were just to Serb states, considering that they both speak Serbian. I compare it as such

Serbians-Montenegrins is same like Germans-Austrians. Austrian nationality exist but Austrian language does not.

 

 



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http://theforgotten.org/intro.html


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 17:08
^ Montenegro was never conquered by the Ottoman Empire, so in essence Montenegrins are "pure Serbs". Most of the war criminals of the 1990s - Radovan Karadzic, etc...were Montenegrin in origin, not Serbian or Bosnian.

That said - most Montenegrins have a 'holier-than-thou' attitude towards Serbs, and most Serbs are completely indifferent to Montenegro - for them it's just a fairly backwards province in the south, only slightly better than Kosovo.

That said - a huge majority of Montenegrins (80+ % in the latest polls) support independence from Serbia-Montenegro. And a sizable majority of Serbs (65+ %) still support the union.

That's pushing Montenegrins to accentuate their differences, as we also saw in Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia.

Like my Grandmother said:

"Before the war, Mila, you'd be ashamed to leave the house with a veil on. Now, you'd never wear one unless you knew you were going out of the house, and more, to the Christian part of town."




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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 17:09
lol thanks for the surprise, I liked it a lot.it sounded like a eurovision song contest style.They always sing in Turkish or was it just a single? Actually you know what they sing better than most of the pshyco Turkish singers in Turkey.I understood the every single word in lyrics.If you have more, please do post them in AE Tavern.

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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 17:12
Originally posted by erci

lol thanks for the surprise, I liked it a lot.it sounded like a eurovision song contest style.They always sing in Turkish or was it just a single? Actually you know what they sing better than most of the pshyco Turkish singers in Turkey.I understood the every single word in lyrics.If you have more, please do post them in AE Tavern.


AE Tavern, that's like the anything-and-everything place?

It is a Eurovision song. It's the Turkish version of our entry in Kyiv this year.



Here's the Bosnian version, WAY better:

http://www.eurobosniamp3.com/Feminnem%20-%20Zovi-.mp3

Zovi - Call!
Kad na srcu rana boli - When your heart is hurting!
Ja sam ona što te voli - I am she that loves you!
I za tebe što postoji - And exists for you!
Već godinama - For years!

Samo zovi - Just call!
U bilo koje doba noći - Any hour of the night!
Istog trena ja ću doći - I will come to you right away!
Da prije no zatvoriš oči - And before you close your eyes!
Usne tvoje poljubim - Kiss your lips!



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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 17:19
Originally posted by Mila



AE Tavern, that's like the anything-and-everything place?

It is a Eurovision song. It's the Turkish version of our entry in Kyiv this year.

Here's the Bosnian version, WAY better:

http://www.eurobosniamp3.com/Feminnem%20-%20Zovi-.mp3



yeap, Tavern will do it.thanks for the Bosnian version as well, it is indeed better


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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 17:23
Originally posted by erci

Originally posted by Mila



AE Tavern, that's like the anything-and-everything place?

It is a Eurovision song. It's the Turkish version of our entry in Kyiv this year.

Here's the Bosnian version, WAY better:

http://www.eurobosniamp3.com/Feminnem%20-%20Zovi-.mp3



yeap, Tavern will do it.thanks for the Bosnian version as well, it is indeed better


I like the labels here. You're a Beg. That's so cool. I'm still a Janissary. Though I'm Muslim... But oh well.

And it's only better in the Bosnian version because they know what they're singing and can sing loud and strong. They don't speak a *word* of Turkish, none of them. Just singing from a sheet with a coach.


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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 17:50
no worries.Yenicheris are our brothers and sisters as well besides its better than basıbozuks 

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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 05:56
The region in the 9th century


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 06:09
Croat army intervention in bosnia
 
Operation Southern move
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qISbhqVBNQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qISbhqVBNQ
 
Operation meastral
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDXJq5guIMA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDXJq5guIMA
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFaEx3zUb2Y - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFaEx3zUb2Y
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lItSSNrDMEk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lItSSNrDMEk
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpP85RWNhLY - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpP85RWNhLY
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMF6nxpiz6M - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMF6nxpiz6M
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKEEbqgEVYc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKEEbqgEVYc


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 06:12
Greetings bosnian friends, i was just wondering since bosnia's military is begining to modernise if it is willing to try out this cro tank. Just wondering of course
 
 


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 06:13


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 23:13
I am so happy to see muslims from the middle east admiting to intervene in the civil war in bosnia. The west has this thing about denying it. They think it is bad press. Bosnia however was illegal in its seperaton from Yugoslavia. The needed number (66 percent) was not present in the vote and fell just short by a few precents. Afterward Abdic, a pro Yugoslav Muslim after winning the election was forced out by Alija. I am curious what information if any you may have concerning the Muslim equipment of those who supported Abdic (the majority) was used.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 23:40

if u are talking about the video, those were croat forces intervining into bosnia(that basically almost destroyed the RS since our army came 23 km of banja luka. Second, it was not ilegal, it was legitamate made by tito in 1974 that in given time all states in yugoslavia even serbia itself could seperate. It was more illegal that the yugoslavian army was listening to slobodan milosevic. Because he was not the president of yugoslavia(commander and chief). Stjepan Mesic was the last president of SFRJ yugoslavia, and also illegal that he destroyed the atonomy of vojvodina and kosovo, because it was stated in the constitution of 1974 that vojvodina and kosovo were atonomous provinces. So hence, after that there was no yugoslavia. So hence the break away was legal.



Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 23:46
It was illegal because the 66 percent needed for the vote in Bosnia was not present. The law said 66 percent was needed. That is what Tito set up.
 
Next this was RS+Abdic loyalist muslims vs Alija's regime.
 
As for voivodina and kosovo, that wasn't illegal. It was a stupid law placed on Serbia by Tito the same as taking Vardar away and turning it into "Macedonia."
 
But anyway yea there was no 66 percent, the break was illegal, Alija didn't win the election, Abdic was, that was also illegal. Anyway we can take it to the thread for this in the minefield if you want. I'm fine here too.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 23:56

doesnt matter if it was stupid, Tito set that up and was made in the constitution you cannot deny that.(voj &Kos) So once breaking that n plus the army listening to a non president made the esence of yugoslavia no more so hence it gave the right of other republics to seperate.

 
2. Those video's were croat forces(cause those croat operations, southern move, meastral read about it. And already show's croat flags, tanks, infantry, planes, IFVs, And helicopters.
Which reached 23 km from banja luka. The bos 5th corps was only made of 25,000 men no more.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 23:56

doesnt matter if it was stupid, Tito set that up and was made in the constitution you cannot deny that.(voj &Kos) So once breaking that n plus the army listening to a non president made the esence of yugoslavia no more so hence it gave the right of other republics to seperate.

 
2. Those video's were croat forces(cause those croat operations, southern move, meastral read about it. And already show's croat flags, tanks, infantry, planes, IFVs, And helicopters.
Which reached 23 km from banja luka. The bos 5th corps was only made of 25,000 men no more.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 23:57
im fine here too since im more educated in these maters cheers ;)


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:00

it is well known that the cro forces reliesed preasure from the bihac pocket not alija's forces. And that crashed through cities like jajce, sipovo, and mrkonjic.



Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:12
So the take over of milosevic basically destoryed yuogslavia since it was illegal. He was not voted to take powere, he was not even the president and commander in chief. So yugoslavia after that was no more, since alot of those laws were violated.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:12
so read read read my friend.


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:14
Originally posted by Tomo

doesnt matter if it was stupid, Tito set that up and was made in the constitution you cannot deny that.(voj &Kos) So once breaking that n plus the army listening to a non president made the esence of yugoslavia no more so hence it gave the right of other republics to seperate.

 
2. Those video's were croat forces(cause those croat operations, southern move, meastral read about it. And already show's croat flags, tanks, infantry, planes, IFVs, And helicopters.
Which reached 23 km from banja luka. The bos 5th corps was only made of 25,000 men no more.
 
Voivodina's autonomy wasn't taken away technically. Kosovo's autonomy was taken away because of the abuses of the albanian government there against the Serb population.
 
In any case it didn't give the right for Alija to 1, break Yugoslav law by taking the presidency from Abdic, and 2 Bosnia breaking away from Yugoslavia when the proper percentile for the vote wasn't present and forcing Yugoslav citizens in over 50 percent of the territory in Bosnia to live under the rulership of this new country.
 
I don't care about the Croat forces. That's another topic and a rather unimpressive one at that.


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:14
Originally posted by Tomo

So the take over of milosevic basically destoryed yuogslavia since it was illegal. He was not voted to take powere, he was not even the president and commander in chief. So yugoslavia after that was no more, since alot of those laws were violated.
 
Milosevic actually won the election Serbia. That wasn't illegal. But we aren't talking about that either.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:21
My less informed friend,
 
It is widly known that vojvodina's autonomy was taken away n u cant deny that period.
Second, to my well knowledge, the serbians for the last 20 year's were violating the albanian minority(brutal tactics of supressing protests, abuses ect..)
ANd even so if the albanians were abusing the serbs their, it was not to milos to end the autonomy of kosovo. It was up to the president of yugoslavia to do it.
 
thirdly you are the one who was talking about alija's forces ect...
And second i wouldnt call that less impressive since we almost destroyed the RS, but since Dayton and NATO that was out of the question.  but yet that's another story, like u said.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:22
Yes the elections in serbia, but not in the rest of yugoslavia. All six republics had to vote not one state. Since all state's were equal. Thats why it was called SFRJ yugoslavia. Learn my friend.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:24

so hence the take over was illegal period.



Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:36
I am sorry to say that you do not know me well enough to call me less informed or your friend, but to get to the point:
 
Voivodina was given autonomy by a CROAT, Tito who hated Serbia. So even if autonomy was fully taken away (it wasn't) it would be against an idiot's law. Like Tito said "A weak Serbia makes a strong Yugoslavia." That is why over 40 percent of ethnic Serbs in Yugoslavia were outside the boarders of Serbia.
 
Next Kosovo, its history, its name, everything about it is Serbian. It has an Albanian majority because of the Ottoman opression on Serbs and later the disgusting genocidal Nazi's agreement to Greater Albania. The Albanians had full autonomy in Kosovo, it was more or less their own country. They seeked to get rid of the Serbs in it, as well as the Gorani. Milosevic tried to end that by taking away its autonomy which was placed by Tito the tyrant.
 
Alija Izetbegovic is whom I am talking about.
 
The Croatian forces in the war were a joke. The only reason they posed any threat was because of NATO. Their greatest "conquest" was killing/kicking out Serbian civilians in Krajina, a Serb region since the 1500s. More Tito Gerrymandering.
 
Milosevic has nothing to do with the illigality of Bosnia. WHy are you bringing it up? Bosnia broke away with less then the needed percentile there to vote, and they did this in the morning when the Serb side wasn't even present. It was illegal because there wasn't enough people and they did it at the wrong hours. IT was illegal end of story.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:53
Oh wow i didnt relise that you were that of a ignorant person. You make me laugh. SO what if tito was a croat? that was the point of yugoslavia that all of the six nations were equal. IF it werent for Tito serbia would of been slaving under the USSR like the ukranians and pole's. Hated the serbs? boy , if he had hated the serbs he would have either left serbia to the Ruskie's or would of put zagreb as the capital of Yugoslavia.
 
Next, doesnt matter if it was serbia before or not it still broke the laws of yugoslavia, which didnt matter if it was idiots law or not. That's the point. Milo's take over was illegal also. So the essence of yugoslavia was destroyed, so the rest had a right to seperate after this. Your basically admiting that serbia and milos violated those laws. So others had the right to do so, since yugoslavia was no more after that. Period so why are u bringing up this convo again.
 
 
Joke? i would call the JNA a joke, first of all , it took them 3 months to conquer a city full of civilians and some ZNG gaurds with far less weaopons then the JNA had in that battle. And after that nothing impressive for an army that was claimed to be 4th in europe. More of embarsment may i add. And far as i know NATO didnt get involved  in most of the years in the 90's. reason that the RS is still standing and dodik is saftely at home is because of NATO(dayton). And the only reason of serbia being untouched was because of international pressure to creat peace and stability in the region.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:57
Krajina wasnt a serb region, first of all my uneducated friend. It was in the kindom of croatia in the austro--hungarian empire. the serbs imigrated there, to flee from the turkish invasion of serbia and bosnia. Same as the kosovars who came and overpopulated kosovo.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:03
The only reason you had at the first years of fighting the majority of weapons because we(tudman) let you guys have it(tanks and IFV's , planes from vojnara zagreb,and across slavonija, and ships from pula, due to the fear of international pressure)
And i wonder what this so called NATO story did, more of a propaganda trick to clear the wonds from most of all your lost wars and battles. Not one nato troop or armour pratispate in the operation.  We made our own UAV's that gave us intelligence on the field on which forces were on the ground.(Bl-500 UAV) We had gathered our weapons from the black market. The only thing theyve done was bombed a Sam because it was locked by it, during a nofly zone enforcment which was trying to shoot down or to clear one of our migs away from the no fly zone.


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:08
"Oh wow i didnt relise that you were that of a ignorant person. You make me laugh. SO what if tito was a croat? that was the point of yugoslavia that all of the six nations were equal. IF it werent for Tito serbia would of been slaving under the USSR like the ukranians and pole's. Hated the serbs? boy , if he had hated the serbs he would have either left serbia to the Ruskie's or would of put zagreb as the capital of Yugoslavia. "
 
But all the nations weren't equal. Serbia had more people. Why force Serbs to live outside of Serbia? Krajina was a Serbian land. Why give it to Croats for example? Serbs and Russians had a good friendship and always have. I doubt they would be slaves, and I hate the USSR.
 
"Next, doesnt matter if it was serbia before or not it still broke the laws of yugoslavia, which didnt matter if it was idiots law or not. That's the point. Milo's take over was illegal also. So the essence of yugoslavia was destroyed, so the rest had a right to seperate after this. Your basically admiting that serbia and milos violated those laws. So others had the right to do so, since yugoslavia was no more after that. Period so why are u bringing up this convo again."
 
Voivodina was a part of Serbia within Yugoslavia. Milosevic was in full right to do what he wished with HIS country, Serbia. Taking autonomy from Voivodina doesn't mean Yugoslavia ceased to exist. This is just a lame excuse.
 
"Joke? i would call the JNA a joke, first of all , it took them 3 months to conquer a city full of civilians and some ZNG gaurds with far less weaopons then the JNA had in that battle. And after that nothing impressive for an army that was claimed to be 4th in europe. More of embarsment may i add. And far as i know NATO didnt get involved  in most of the years in the 90's. reason that the RS is still standing and dodik is saftely at home is because of NATO(dayton). And the only reason of serbia being untouched was because of international pressure to creat peace and stability in the region. "
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwhuMX9_xbc&feature=PlayList&p=415621FDC2071874&index=6 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwhuMX9_xbc&feature=PlayList&p=415621FDC2071874&index=6
 
Vukovar was Serb/Croat city, not just a Croatian city. I'm pretty sure the Serbs had a slight majority. The JNA didn't want to destroy Vukovar, but simply protect the Serb Republic of Krajina. The Germans pulled back to gain media sympathy.
 
As far as you know you are incorrect. As early as 1990 American congress put sanctions on Yugoslavia and got the world bank to deny Yugoslavia its services. The break up of Yugoslavia was planned much in advance. Let's be realistic, the Croatian forces only had success because of NATO. Their forces were too small and weren't equiped as well until of course the Germans (old friends eh?) gave them the weaponry.


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:10
Originally posted by Tomo

Krajina wasnt a serb region, first of all my uneducated friend. It was in the kindom of croatia in the austro--hungarian empire. the serbs imigrated there, to flee from the turkish invasion of serbia and bosnia. Same as the kosovars who came and overpopulated kosovo.
 
Nope. The Austro Hungarians placed the Serbs in Krajina in the 1500s after the Ottoman Turks killed everything there and no one settled it. Look at the military Krajina front in a history book. Albanians came to Kosovo via Turkish rulership and Nazi conquest.


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:12
Originally posted by Tomo

The only reason you had at the first years of fighting the majority of weapons because we(tudman) let you guys have it(tanks and IFV's , planes from vojnara zagreb,and across slavonija, and ships from pula, due to the fear of international pressure)
And i wonder what this so called NATO story did, more of a propaganda trick to clear the wonds from most of all your lost wars and battles. Not one nato troop or armour pratispate in the operation.  We made our own UAV's that gave us intelligence on the field on which forces were on the ground.(Bl-500 UAV) We had gathered our weapons from the black market. The only thing theyve done was bombed a Sam because it was locked by it, during a nofly zone enforcment which was trying to shoot down or to clear one of our migs away from the no fly zone.
 
Who is "you guys"? I'm not Serbian.
 
Germany provided weapons for Croatia while "retired" AMerican generals provided leadership for Croatia. NATO was also in charge of air power in Operations Flash and Storm.
 
I'm curious how old are you?


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Krajina - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Krajina
 
The following map was published by National Geographic Vol. 178, No.2, August 1990 , less than a year before the civil wars broke in ex-Yugoslavia, on page 105. The front page of the August issue had title
 
http://srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/map-NatGeogr-1990.jpg -


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:17

Short excerpts from (different) encyclopediae:

FACTS EASY TO CHECK:

Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1946,...,1952
Reference: EB, Edition 1946, (through 1952), Volume 6, page 730 and 731:
Entry: entry "Croatia-Slavonia"
(Note that even in the title: Croatia and Slavonia are two different entities...)
Quote:

Necessity dictated in 1578 the formation of special provinces known as the "military frontiers" (q.v.) (Vojna Krajina) - the Slavonian between Drave and Kulpa with Varazdin as its centre, the Croatian between Kulpa and sea, with Karlovac (Karlstadt), so named after Archduke Charles of Styria, who held the supreme command. Their reincorporation was repeatedly demanded by the Croatian estates but without effect, and they RETAINED THEIR IDENTITY TILL LONG AFTER THE EXPULSION OF TURKS...

 

...in 1699... Karlovci was to be centre of the Serbian Orthodox Church, the patriarch of Pec', with thousands of Serbian refugees from Turkey, having settled in Slavonia and south Hungary under a special charter from Leopold I in 1690... ...In 1769, 1774 and 1776 Serbian national congress were allowed to meet in Karlovci, and again in 1790 at Temesvar, when Serb privileges were confirmed by Leopold II...

..in 1699... Karlovci was to be centre of the Serbian Orthodox Church, the patriarch of Pec', with thousands of Serbian refugees from Turkey, having settled in Slavonia and south Hungary under a special charter from Leopold I in 1690... ...In 1769, 1774 and 1776 Serbian national congress were allowed to meet in Karlovci, and again in 1790 at Temesvar, when Serb privileges were confirmed by Leopold II...
(End quote)


The New Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1986
Reference: EB, Edition 1986, Macropedia, Vol 29, page 1061
Entry: Yugoslavia, Croatia, History
Quote:

The Vojna Krajina (Militargrenze), a military frontier zone on Croatian territory, was formed in 1578. As THIS ZONE WAS SUBJECT DIRECTLY TO THE EMPEROR IN VIENNA, it meant further loss for the Croats.

Turkish invasion instigated a partial change in the ethnic aspect of Croatian lands. Large numbers of Croats abandoned their homes and moved northward seeking safety, some even going out of Croatia altogether into Austria. In partly depopulated areas the rulers settled... ...or granted certain privileges to the Serbs who escaped from the Balkans and took refuge in the Vojna Krajina to became defenders of the Habsburg Empire.

(End quote)


The Encyclopedia Americana, International Edition, year 1993
Reference: EA, Edition 1993, Volume 8, page 227
Entry: Croatia, history, page 227
Quote:

In 1578 the Habsburgs created the so-called Military Frontier, where peasants were granted land in return for military service. THE AREA WAS ADMINISTERED *DIRECTLY* FROM VIENNA, *NOT* FROM CROATIA,... (!!!)
(End quote)


Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1952
Reference: EB, Edition 1952, Vol 15, pages 480 and 481
Entry: MILITARY FRONTIER (German: Militargrenze)
Quote:

...in 1527, after the defeat of Hungary by the Turks at Mohacs, southern Croatia was left deserted, its inhabitants having fled north before the Turks. The Austrian government built a series of forts in this zone, and organized the remaining population, with immigrant Serbs and Vlachs, into a defense force under military supervision... This organization was gradually extended, and in 1630 received a formal statute.

By the end of the 17th century, there were three "Generalates," in Karlstadt (Karlovats), Warasdin and Petrinja respectively. The Hungarian and Croat Estates deeply resented the existence of this EXCEPTION FROM THEIR AUTHORITY, and constantly demanded its abolition, especially after Prince Eugene's victories had practically ended the Turkish peril, but the "Granzer" themselves RESISTED ANY CHANGE, and Habsburgs had also now become alive to its usefulness as a weapon against the unruly nobles. Instead of abolishing, they extended it: a new Slavonian district was established in 1702, a Szekler, in East Transylvania, in 1764, and Wallach in 1766. THE FRONTIER NOW RAN FROM THE ADRIATIC TO THE CONFINES OF MOLDAVIA.

The "Grenzer" gradually became the backbone of the Austrian army. As its bravest, most loyal and best disciplined troops...

In 1849 the Frontier was formed into a separate province, with an area of 15,182 sq.m., and a population of 1,220,503, MOSTLY SERB or Croat, with some Vlach or Rumanian...

(End quote)


Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1990
Reference: EB, Edition 1990, Vol 29, page 1103
Entry: Yugoslavia, The Habsburg lands, Migrations
Quote:

A prominent feature of Austrian and Hungarian lands was the "Military Frontier" (Militargrenze), which dated from the first attempts to reclaim Croatia and Slavonia from the Turkish rule. In 1578 the Austrians began to organize frontier marchlands against the Turks with a system of forts, watchtowers, and warning beacons staffed by a force of granicari (frontiersmen). the granicari were granted land in frontier regions in return for military service. The system was reorganized and consolidated through the next two centuries, ... At its height it extended in a belt of varying widths across the entire northern border of the Ottoman Empire from the Adriatic coast to Walacia...

Having been badly depopulated by Turkish raids, the Military Frontier was resettled largely by refugees of a variety of ethnic origins, but Serbs and Bosnians (*) contributed a large portion. Particularly important was the great migration in 1691, as a consequence of which the region came to contain some of the major centres of Serbian culture... The ethnic map of Yugoslavia today [1990] bears the marks of these migrations.

(End quote)


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:24
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24917&PN=13 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24917&PN=13
 
 
I suggest we go here for the rest of the discussion.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:26
Dosent matter, boy. If it was inscribed in the constitution(serbian lands or not), it could not have been taken away by merly a president of just one province in the state of yugoslavia.
 
 
Lol another undereducated statement. If you had known and is widly known, that the majority of that city was destroyed first of all. If they would of been carefull because of serb civilians, they wouldnt of put nearlly thousands of shells directly into the ctiy, and destroyed of what was left of it. Which most call a pathetic army after the 3 months. LOL video? that's just a biased  propaganda video nothing more. Genocide? what genocide.
 
Krajina wasnt serbian land it has always been croatian since from the begining my undereducated friend. Serbs imigrated to the krajina to flee from the turkish invasions. So krajina was alway ours,even in yugoslavia. So if your talking about population. then wouldnt of kosovo been albanian just because the population was a little higher?  its called double standard. Second doesnt matter if they had the populous or not that was not the point of yugoslavia. It was made that all nations were equal. But if you want to talk details, the partisan revolution was started in croatia, by croatians which spread across the region. So by this it would have given us more rights. But again that was not the point of the SFRJ. THe point was that all nations were equal. I suggest you learn about the nations history before you add anymore.
 
Second the USSR went into serbia, and if it wernt for tito you would have been under the USSR. THe ukranians and the poles and the rest had more ties then even serbs had to the russians, and were still slaves.


Third,yes the sanctions, lol the americans helped you there. Since we let u have most of the weaponry milos didnt care since we didnt have anything. So hence the sanctions were hurting us more then you people. Second  NATO did not equip us, we had aquired weapons through the black market over the years and created a large army. 200-000 plus a couple of hundreds of thousands more, would not be called a small force. Thats why your forces were running away from us across the border into bosnia. Pathetic.
 


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:29
Nope, military krajina was under hausburg crown, and the serbians were fleeing from the turkish onslaught and in slavonia was more of a buffer zone, which had the hausburg armies stationed. So krajina was always ours.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:33
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Originally posted by Tomo

The only reason you had at the first years of fighting the majority of weapons because we(tudman) let you guys have it(tanks and IFV's , planes from vojnara zagreb,and across slavonija, and ships from pula, due to the fear of international pressure)
And i wonder what this so called NATO story did, more of a propaganda trick to clear the wonds from most of all your lost wars and battles. Not one nato troop or armour pratispate in the operation.  We made our own UAV's that gave us intelligence on the field on which forces were on the ground.(Bl-500 UAV) We had gathered our weapons from the black market. The only thing theyve done was bombed a Sam because it was locked by it, during a nofly zone enforcment which was trying to shoot down or to clear one of our migs away from the no fly zone.
 
Who is "you guys"? I'm not Serbian.
 
Germany provided weapons for Croatia while "retired" AMerican generals provided leadership for Croatia. NATO was also in charge of air power in Operations Flash and Storm.
 
I'm curious how old are you?
 
Nope, again an undereducated statment. Yes we got some weapons from germany, we got from the ukranians, poles ect under the black market that we had to costly pay for, my dear friend. American airpower? sorry my friend , they were only enforcing no fly zones which we were affected. And had our own mils and migs to do the bombing for ourselves. To your knowledge im 30 years old. I guese by these statments of yours, you must be a child.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:37

Population dosent matter, since the territory was always croatian. the serbs were given land but under the hausburg croat crown and was still part of it. So your information formally proves that the krajina was not serbian it was territorly croatian, it was just populated by them.



Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:39
"Dosent matter, boy. If it was inscribed in the constitution(serbian lands or not), it could not have been taken away by merly a president of just one province in the state of yugoslavia."

The Serbian president had full right to take autonomy away if he wanted to. It was his country.
 
"Lol another undereducated statement. If you had known and is widly known, that the majority of that city was destroyed first of all. If they would of been carefull because of serb civilians, they wouldnt of put nearlly thousands of shells directly into the ctiy, and destroyed of what was left of it. Which most call a pathetic army after the 3 months. LOL video? that's just a biased  propaganda video nothing more. Genocide? what genocide."
 
Watch the video. Most of Vukovar is very much so in one piece. There are many UN documents detailing of how the Croatian soldiers stopped civilians from fleeing the city to use as human shields. It's a very good tactical move. If you move all the women and children out the men will have less of a reason to fight. Again had they wanted to Vukovar would have been steam rolled. Once the Germans saw the Serbs would not do that they pulled away and spun a big propaganda story that Vukovar had been destroyed which fooled some people appearently. But reporters going in testified that it was damaged, but still in one piece. The video I posted shows you this, you can see it with your own eyes. The genocide of Krajina, the largest single act of ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia was against the Serbs in Krajina.
 
"Krajina wasnt serbian land it has always been croatian since from the begining my undereducated friend. Serbs imigrated to the krajina to flee from the turkish invasions. So krajina was alway ours,even in yugoslavia. So if your talking about population. then wouldnt of kosovo been albanian just because the population was a little higher?  its called double standard. Second doesnt matter if they had the populous or not that was not the point of yugoslavia. It was made that all nations were equal. But if you want to talk details, the partisan revolution was started in croatia, by croatians which spread across the region. So by this it would have given us more rights. But again that was not the point of the SFRJ. THe point was that all nations were equal. I suggest you learn about the nations history before you add anymore. "
 
According to the encyclopedia britanica, US military maps and national geographic Krajina was populated by Serbs after it was left empty by retreated croats getting beaten back by Turks. This was done in the 1500s. What is your source that says other wise? I suggest you read a book before you make silly claims like that. Where do you get your history from Ante Pavelic and Thompson songs?
 
Serbs moved into Krajina because of the Austro Hungarians. THe Croats got beat by the Turks and so the Serbs were put there to resettle and form a buffer zone. The Albanians on the other hand took advantage of their status in the ottoman empire and forced Serbs out of Kosovo and later with the help of Nazis did much more.
 
"Second the USSR went into serbia, and if it wernt for tito you would have been under the USSR. THe ukranians and the poles and the rest had more ties then even serbs had to the russians, and were still slaves. "
 
I'm not Serbian. The Poles and Ukrainians did not have good ties with the USSR. Serbia did.
 
"Third,yes the sanctions, lol the americans helped you there. Since we let u have most of the weaponry milos didnt care since we didnt have anything. So hence the sanctions were hurting us more then you people. Second  NATO did not equip us, we had aquired weapons through the black market over the years and created a large army. 200-000 plus a couple of hundreds of thousands more, would not be called a small force. Thats why your forces were running away from us across the border into bosnia. Pathetic. "
 
It is very well known that this is not true. You didn't give the Serbs the weaponry. That's just stupid. The fact is most of the JNA was Serbs. The Croats simply didn't enlist. Tudjman even writes about this in his book as a problem. The Croats only had an army because the Germans equiped them, and the Americans trained them and they still didn't even wipe their rear without NATO's word. The people retreating across Bosnia were Serbs but they were Serb civilians from the Krajina Serb Republic where acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide were rampant.


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:41
Originally posted by Tomo

Population dosent matter, since the territory was always croatian. the serbs were given land but under the hausburg croat crown and was still part of it. So your information formally proves that the krajina was not serbian it was territorly croatian, it was just populated by them.

 
Not true. Slavonia, Dalmatia, Krajina and Croatia were all different regions. It wasn't until Tito that he made all those regions into one and renamed it Croatia. Again what are your sources? I provided maps and enclopedias. You...? nada.


Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:44
Originally posted by Tomo

Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Originally posted by Tomo

The only reason you had at the first years of fighting the majority of weapons because we(tudman) let you guys have it(tanks and IFV's , planes from vojnara zagreb,and across slavonija, and ships from pula, due to the fear of international pressure)
And i wonder what this so called NATO story did, more of a propaganda trick to clear the wonds from most of all your lost wars and battles. Not one nato troop or armour pratispate in the operation.  We made our own UAV's that gave us intelligence on the field on which forces were on the ground.(Bl-500 UAV) We had gathered our weapons from the black market. The only thing theyve done was bombed a Sam because it was locked by it, during a nofly zone enforcment which was trying to shoot down or to clear one of our migs away from the no fly zone.
 
Who is "you guys"? I'm not Serbian.
 
Germany provided weapons for Croatia while "retired" AMerican generals provided leadership for Croatia. NATO was also in charge of air power in Operations Flash and Storm.
 
I'm curious how old are you?
 
Nope, again an undereducated statment. Yes we got some weapons from germany, we got from the ukranians, poles ect under the black market that we had to costly pay for, my dear friend. American airpower? sorry my friend , they were only enforcing no fly zones which we were affected. And had our own mils and migs to do the bombing for ourselves. To your knowledge im 30 years old. I guese by these statments of yours, you must be a child.
 
I just showed you proof in that video. Watch it for yourself. If you want to live in your delussion you are more then welcome.
 
I doubt you are 30 because i think you are smarter then that. If you really are 30 you have very poor grammatical structure and your thought process is very disorderly. I suspect you are no older then 15 and I don't say that as an insult. You holding back your age is also giving me a strong feeling you aren't actually 30 since you said "for all you know I am 30" more or less.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:00
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

"Dosent matter, boy. If it was inscribed in the constitution(serbian lands or not), it could not have been taken away by merly a president of just one province in the state of yugoslavia."

The Serbian president had full right to take autonomy away if he wanted to. It was his country.
 
"Lol another undereducated statement. If you had known and is widly known, that the majority of that city was destroyed first of all. If they would of been carefull because of serb civilians, they wouldnt of put nearlly thousands of shells directly into the ctiy, and destroyed of what was left of it. Which most call a pathetic army after the 3 months. LOL video? that's just a biased  propaganda video nothing more. Genocide? what genocide."
 
Watch the video. Most of Vukovar is very much so in one piece. There are many UN documents detailing of how the Croatian soldiers stopped civilians from fleeing the city to use as human shields. It's a very good tactical move. If you move all the women and children out the men will have less of a reason to fight. Again had they wanted to Vukovar would have been steam rolled. Once the Germans saw the Serbs would not do that they pulled away and spun a big propaganda story that Vukovar had been destroyed which fooled some people appearently. But reporters going in testified that it was damaged, but still in one piece. The video I posted shows you this, you can see it with your own eyes. The genocide of Krajina, the largest single act of ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia was against the Serbs in Krajina.
 
"Krajina wasnt serbian land it has always been croatian since from the begining my undereducated friend. Serbs imigrated to the krajina to flee from the turkish invasions. So krajina was alway ours,even in yugoslavia. So if your talking about population. then wouldnt of kosovo been albanian just because the population was a little higher?  its called double standard. Second doesnt matter if they had the populous or not that was not the point of yugoslavia. It was made that all nations were equal. But if you want to talk details, the partisan revolution was started in croatia, by croatians which spread across the region. So by this it would have given us more rights. But again that was not the point of the SFRJ. THe point was that all nations were equal. I suggest you learn about the nations history before you add anymore. "
 
According to the encyclopedia britanica, US military maps and national geographic Krajina was populated by Serbs after it was left empty by retreated croats getting beaten back by Turks. This was done in the 1500s. What is your source that says other wise? I suggest you read a book before you make silly claims like that. Where do you get your history from Ante Pavelic and Thompson songs?
 
Serbs moved into Krajina because of the Austro Hungarians. THe Croats got beat by the Turks and so the Serbs were put there to resettle and form a buffer zone. The Albanians on the other hand took advantage of their status in the ottoman empire and forced Serbs out of Kosovo and later with the help of Nazis did much more.
 
"Second the USSR went into serbia, and if it wernt for tito you would have been under the USSR. THe ukranians and the poles and the rest had more ties then even serbs had to the russians, and were still slaves. "
 
I'm not Serbian. The Poles and Ukrainians did not have good ties with the USSR. Serbia did.
 
"Third,yes the sanctions, lol the americans helped you there. Since we let u have most of the weaponry milos didnt care since we didnt have anything. So hence the sanctions were hurting us more then you people. Second  NATO did not equip us, we had aquired weapons through the black market over the years and created a large army. 200-000 plus a couple of hundreds of thousands more, would not be called a small force. Thats why your forces were running away from us across the border into bosnia. Pathetic. "
 
It is very well known that this is not true. You didn't give the Serbs the weaponry. That's just stupid. The fact is most of the JNA was Serbs. The Croats simply didn't enlist. Tudjman even writes about this in his book as a problem. The Croats only had an army because the Germans equiped them, and the Americans trained them and they still didn't even wipe their rear without NATO's word. The people retreating across Bosnia were Serbs but they were Serb civilians from the Krajina Serb Republic where acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide were rampant.
 
 
Oh boy, go to school for god sakes and learn something
 
Vukovar was steam rolled my undereducated friend, and was not left in tact most of the buildings were left  in ruins, since u have not been their unlike ive been at that time. Tactical move? your forces calculated  would take within  days. That comment their shows that its an excuse just to win an argument in a subject u have no expirence with. The JNA was already surroned the city and was shelling it constantly with their forces steam rolling in the city. Ive seen the video and just saw it as a propaganda movie nothing more, while u have seen it in films, ive have expirenced it in real life. The only tactical decsion was in the last couple of weeks of the battle(after the major losses they had) were they desided not to operate in single file in vukovar rather to spread out with infantry surrounding the armour divisions. Which showed what a discrace it realy was.
 
 
Ethnic clensing? budy the serbs fled them themselves before our army had entered knin. Only the army was left to defend  the rest of the krajina. So how's that ethinc clensing. While serbs have been putting our people in consentration camps and forces 190000 croats out of the krajina.
 
 
Second, if you didnt know that the weaponry was stationed in zagreb, slavonija, well across croatia. In  1991 we had  could have blocked the city routes, shut down oil reserves, blockades, ect just like we did in the rest of the war were we surrounded garrisons. Tudman did not allow that acording to international pressure, afraid of being not recognized. So hence we gave the weapons on a silver platter.
 
Again since the embargo was on, germans couldnt have supplied us, we went to the black market in germany in various parts of eastern europe to pay for our weapons. Second NATO did not train our troops first of all, we had thousands of  croats serving armies across the world better then the JNA, instructors, even within the JNA, and outside and got training.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:04
Well, i dnt really give a dam if you believe me or not. SInce i know whats true unlike an undereducated person like you. First of all i have bad typing skills which is 90% of the problem and since im not english canadian or even american and was not born in either countries. 


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:08
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Originally posted by Tomo

Population dosent matter, since the territory was always croatian. the serbs were given land but under the hausburg croat crown and was still part of it. So your information formally proves that the krajina was not serbian it was territorly croatian, it was just populated by them.

 
Not true. Slavonia, Dalmatia, Krajina and Croatia were all different regions. It wasn't until Tito that he made all those regions into one and renamed it Croatia. Again what are your sources? I provided maps and enclopedias. You...? nada.
 
Not true again, It was all croatian territory it was just seperated into kingdoms, under the hausburg rule. and far as i know it was never under serbian rule, or athority only a bunch of scare imagrants fleeing into the region.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:09
wikipedia? youtube? thats where u get your information from ? one video? from uncredible sources were every one can tamper with it. Tisk tisk.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:11
yes, over the years they overpopulated but does not meen it is serbian. If it's under a crown and the kingdoms it doesnt matter.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAZJoh_OhEs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAZJoh_OhEs
o here's  a footage of serbs leaving the krajina even before storm. Only the army was left


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:21
your info proved that it was not even serbian it was just populated by serbs. Which are two diffrent things. Then you just said that kosovo then is albanian. Nazis u say? what has nazis have to do of albanian imagration into kosovo that was far before fasicam and the nazis existed. How old are you, to belive in this kind of C***


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:27
Oh then zemun and vojvodina must be croatian hungarian and german then. Since before the first world war, the serbians were only 20% of the population, while the hungarians,croatians, and germans had most of the populace.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:40
And back to the SFRJ, serbia like all other nations were under yugoslavia, so had to accept yugoslav law, a man of  a leader of one province in yugoslavia could not make those kind of decisons. So that makes it illegal. Period
 
Second, russia was under the rule of stalin. And stalin did not care of ties, he only cared of how much territory he could have control of, and no one of other nations in the USSR was allowed to be second to him.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:56
same thing why Stalin did not join up with China's Mao. Stalin wanted his brand of communism only his kind, a no others. No matter how close they were politacly.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 03:09

And the fact that we captured the 21 kordun korps in knin 5,000 POW's, and the fact is that we already captured and saw serb units retreating, or we wouldnt have occupied western bosina and heading into eastern bosnia.

The fact that in order for the JNA units have to conquer something, it has to be civilians and were not even basicaly good at that(3months with heavy losses). Which show's how pathetic the jNA was, even when it was listed the 4th army in europe. Someone even has to wipe their asses to win something.
 
2nd. There were numerouse croats in the JNA not as many as in the second world war and shortly after in the 50's. For example when the JNA went into slovenia. ALot of the soilders and officers were croats at that time of confusion.

 



Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 04:15

Oh boy, go to school for god sakes and learn something

 

Vukovar was steam rolled my undereducated friend, and was not left in tact most of the buildings were left  in ruins, since u have not been their unlike ive been at that time. Tactical move? your forces calculated  would take within  days. That comment their shows that its an excuse just to win an argument in a subject u have no expirence with. The JNA was already surroned the city and was shelling it constantly with their forces steam rolling in the city. Ive seen the video and just saw it as a propaganda movie nothing more, while u have seen it in films, ive have expirenced it in real life. The only tactical decsion was in the last couple of weeks of the battle(after the major losses they had) were they desided not to operate in single file in vukovar rather to spread out with infantry surrounding the armour divisions. Which showed what a discrace it realy was.

 

How can it be steam rolled in 3 months? Steam rolled means it was quickly and utterly destroyed.

 

Yes tactical move. It is well known that the Germans requested the Croats retreat in order to gain international sympathy.

 

If you would have actually watched the video you wouldn’t need to lie about it and say things that were clearly explained in the video.

 

Oh boy another one claiming “he was there”. Whatever. You’re obviously bias because you are a Croat and you haven’t even used any sources.

 

Ethnic clensing? budy the serbs fled them themselves before our army had entered knin. Only the army was left to defend  the rest of the krajina. So how's that ethinc clensing. While serbs have been putting our people in consentration camps and forces 190000 croats out of the krajina.

 

You don’t know what you are talking about.

 

"CROATIA IS SAID TO OUST MANY"

by David Binder,

New York Times, Wednesday, December 8, 1993

(excerpts, quote):
Zagreb, Croatia. The government of Croatia has forced thousands of its enemies from their homes and from the country, according to the new Zagreb office of the human rights organization of Helsinki Watch.

The actions have been directed mostly against Serbs, who once constituted a sizable minority in Croatia, but also against CROATS opposed to the rule of President Franjo Tudjman, said Ivan Zvonimir Cicak, who heads Helsinki watch of Croatia.

"SINCE 1991, THE CROATIAN AUTHORITIES HAVE BLOWN UP OR RAZED 10,000 (TEN THOUSAND!) HOUSES, MOSTLY OF SERBS, BUT ALSO HOUSES OF CROATS," Mr. Cicak, who is cataloguing the abuses, said in an interview. "IN SOME CASES THEY DINAMITED HOMES WITH THE FAMILIES INSIDE. WHOLE FAMILIES WERE KILLED. Many were vounded."

[...]

...Mr. Cicak said one of the Croats who lost his home was Ante Semjar, "a writer who is a member of the PEN club." He added: "He had a big house on the island of Pag. They blew it up because he had criticized the regime."

In September a building in the coastal city of Split where Croatian dissidents planned to publish an independent newspaper called Dalmatinske Novine (Dalmatian Newspaper) was destroyed "with 100 kilograms (200+ pounds) of dynamite," Mr. Cicak said.

He said the Tudjman Government, in a statement by Foreign Minister mate Granic in May, had acknowledged the destruction of "7,000 houses" of Croatian Serbs. So far, the justice authorities have investigated about 100 (hundred) cases of dynamiting, "but there have been no prosecutions," he said.

ALTOGETHER ABOUT 280,000 (TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTY THOUSAND) CROATIAN SERBS HAVE FLED THE COUNTRY as the result of the dynamite campaign and other measures...

(End quote) 

 

MEDAK POCKET SLAUGHTER
The unpunished genocide


On Thursday, September 9, 1993, Croatian Army made sudden unprovoked attack on the Serbian villages in "Medak pocket" region. The whole region, the farthest West part of Krajina Military Frontier, was Serb majority populated for at least four centuries. During WWII, at the time of existence of Hitler supported puppet Independent State of Croatia, the Medak and surrounding villages as well as nearby town of Gospic was especially hard hit by Croat fascist - Ustashi bestialities. In the small mountain village of Medak itself 861 Serbs, men, women and children were slaughtered.

Weary of the horrors of the past that did not leave one single family without casualties, Krajina Serbs fought bitterly not to be at mercy of yet another Independent State of Croatia. At the moment when resurrected Ustashi elements took over the government in Croatia and declared that they will follow their WWII chauvinist model and declare secession from Yugoslavia, Krajina people declared loyalty to the federation. With some help from the Yugoslav Federal Army the region remained under loyalist control.

In comes "International Community" which after collapse of the Soviet Union got to be under full control from Washington. They recognized Croatian independence in borders designed by Croatian Communist dictator Tito. This meant that Serbian right to exist let alone to exercise their right to control their destiny, their UN declared right for self-determination was denied.

But the Serbs were not to let the weapons down. Washington sends its diplomat Cyrus Vance to bring "peace" to the region. The plan is to fool the Serbs that America seeks non-violent, negotiated solution to the war. America needs time to equip and train its Nazi Croat proxies.

Medak and surrounding Serb villages found themselves in a pocket. The surrounding areas as well as nearby town of Gospic were already cleansed of the Serbs (and the "International Community" did not allow rare fools to try to come to their homes and property). "Medak pocket" got to be a peninsula, surrounded on three sides by Ustashi Croat territory.

The Croat attack on Medak was a test of just what the American master will tolerate. It proved that they will tolerate everything. The model of Ustashi bestiality followed by American silence will then be repeated in Western Slavonia (UNPROFOR sector "West") in May 1995, Western Krajina (UNPROFOR sectors "North" and "South" in August 1995) when entire, huge regions were cleansed of the indigenous Serb population.

The last to go was Eastern Slavonia (UNPROFOR sector "East") which was "demilitarized" (read: the Serbs were disarmed) by America and then given to the control of the Croat fascists in January 1998.

In many different aspects the case of Medak pocket slaughter is educational at least for the reason that it happened very early in the conflict before Western media succeeded to satanize one whole people through its "mass rape", "besieged Sarajevo", "concentration camps", "Srebrenica mass graves" and other Big Lie campaigns.

Medak pocket massacres prove full complicity of the Inter-Nazi-onal Community in the genocide perpetrated on the Serbian people. Medak pocket, since February 1992, was to be protected by UNPROFOR (United Nation Protection Force).

In early morning hours Croat Army shelled and then made all out attack, at the Serb villages. They were supported by tanks...

UNPROFOR stayed uninvolved. This is what they have found when they entered the disaster zone:

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/images/Red_Ball5074.gif - http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/Medak-docs.html - General Jean Cot: "I have found no sign of human or animal life in the several villages we passed today. The destruction is total, systematic and deliberate." UNPROFOR Press Release, September 19, 1993, Zagreb.

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/sorry.html - Lt. Colonel Jim Kevin (according to Reuters): "UN high officers assessed Croatian soldiers had been ordered by highest command to tear down those villages. This could have been ordered by high ranking generals only."

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/sorry.html - Ivanka Rajcevic, survivor : "The Ustashi said 'This is a Serbian village, turn it into a slaughterhouse. Slaughter everybody!.'"

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/sorry.html - Dr. Zeljko Karan, specialist of forensic medicine examines mutilated bodies and writes a report. "Blood suffusions and contusions were caused by strokes of a dull mechanical tool. [The victims] were then thrust into a fire while still alive. Many had stab wounds... It is not necessary to comment how the imprisoned were treated... The UNPROFOR representatives were present at the identification process and forensic treatment, especially at the most illustrative cases."

 

 

Second, if you didnt know that the weaponry was stationed in zagreb, slavonija, well across croatia. In  1991 we had  could have blocked the city routes, shut down oil reserves, blockades, ect just like we did in the rest of the war were we surrounded garrisons. Tudman did not allow that acording to international pressure, afraid of being not recognized. So hence we gave the weapons on a silver platter.

 

 

Why are you denying it? It is well documented that the Germans supplied Croatia even though there was an embargo. I just showed you a documentary of it. It had German markings on it. The Germans and Croatians were working together (yet again) to fight the Serbs. Show me proof that Tudman gave weaponry to the Serb JNA.

 

Again since the embargo was on, germans couldnt have supplied us, we went to the black market in germany in various parts of eastern europe to pay for our weapons. Second NATO did not train our troops first of all, we had thousands of  croats serving armies across the world better then the JNA, instructors, even within the JNA, and outside and got training.

 

But the Germans did provide help. Several journalists have covered this story. Even though there was an embargo look at how the muslims here admit and are happy that the Bosniaks got weaponry and help from other Islamic countries. To get to the point, the Embargo was a fake and only against Serbia. Your silly rant about the Croat forces serving across the world being even better then the JNA and superior instructors is a joke. You honestly sound like you are not older then 15. Your arguments don’t provide any depth.

 

Well, i dnt really give a dam if you believe me or not. SInce i know whats true unlike an undereducated person like you. First of all i have bad typing skills which is 90% of the problem and since im not english canadian or even american and was not born in either countries. 

 

I’m not English, Canadian or American nor was I born in any of those countries. And it isn’t your bad typing, your spelling, but the order of your thoughts. It shows clear signs of ignorance pertaining the subject.

 

Not true again, It was all croatian territory it was just seperated into kingdoms, under the hausburg rule. and far as i know it was never under serbian rule, or athority only a bunch of scare imagrants fleeing into the region.

 

Yes it was under Austrian rule but Croatia isn’t Austria. How does Croatia get right to rule Serb majority Krajina? And scared immigrants fleeing? More like Serbs who fought for Krajina when Croats couldn’t because they got their rears handed to them by the Turks? Serbs fought for Krajina because Croats wouldn’t/couldn’t. Even in WW2 the Ustashe tried to cleanse Krajina of all Serbs, but I guess it took all the help of the western world to finally do it.

 

wikipedia? youtube? thats where u get your information from ? one video? from uncredible sources were every one can tamper with it. Tisk tisk.

 

I posted Encyclopedia Britannica, National geographic and American military maps of ethnicities in Yugoslavia that clearly showed a Serb majority in Krajina and also the historical context of Krajina.

 

yes, over the years they overpopulated but does not meen it is serbian. If it's under a crown and the kingdoms it doesnt matter.

 

No it wasn’t “over the years they over populated” it was completely EMPTY and the Serbs were settled there to defend Europe against the Turks because the Croats couldn’t do it. And Croatia didn’t have a kingdom since the Austrians made them their servants.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAZJoh_OhEs - o here's  a footage of serbs leaving the krajina even before storm. Only the army was left

 

That just shows Serbs fleeing. It doesn’t prove that they weren’t killed. It’s very well known and documented that this was violent. Do you want to see pictures of the victims? I can PM them to you. I won’t post them here they are way too violent.

 

your info proved that it was not even serbian it was just populated by serbs. Which are two diffrent things. Then you just said that kosovo then is albanian. Nazis u say? what has nazis have to do of albanian imagration into kosovo that was far before fasicam and the nazis existed. How old are you, to belive in this kind of C***

 

My info proved that Krajina was not part of Croatia, neither was Dalmatia or Slavonia. Mind reading it again? Yes Albanians were supporters of Kosovo and made Greater Albania with their help. I know Albanian immigration was earlier as well.

 

Oh then zemun and vojvodina must be croatian hungarian and german then. Since before the first world war, the serbians were only 20% of the population, while the hungarians,croatians, and germans had most of the populace.

 

Where is your source???

 

And back to the SFRJ, serbia like all other nations were under yugoslavia, so had to accept yugoslav law, a man of  a leader of one province in yugoslavia could not make those kind of decisons. So that makes it illegal. Period

 

I’m pretty sure Milosevic could because Voivodina and Kosovo were in Serbia. In any case it doesn’t matter what Milosevic did in Serbia, we are talking about what Alija Izetbegovic did in Bosnia. Focus.

 

Second, russia was under the rule of stalin. And stalin did not care of ties, he only cared of how much territory he could have control of, and no one of other nations in the USSR was allowed to be second to him.

 

same thing why Stalin did not join up with China's Mao. Stalin wanted his brand of communism only his kind, a no others. No matter how close they were politacly.

 

So what? What does this have to do with anything?

 

And the fact that we captured the 21 kordun korps in knin 5,000 POW's, and the fact is that we already captured and saw serb units retreating, or we wouldnt have occupied western bosina and heading into eastern bosnia.

 

Source?

 

The fact that in order for the JNA units have to conquer something, it has to be civilians and were not even basicaly good at that(3months with heavy losses). Which show's how pathetic the jNA was, even when it was listed the 4th army in europe. Someone even has to wipe their asses to win something.

 

It is well documented that Croatians were armed in Vukovar and were holding the civilians as human shields. UN human rights was even baffled by this. And Vukovar fell because the Croatians let it fall in order to gain sympathy.

 



Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 04:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIh8_UJrOGc&feature=PlayList&p=57C3CA9880916DD6&index=6 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIh8_UJrOGc&feature=PlayList&p=57C3CA9880916DD6&index=6
 
 


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 04:20
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIh8_UJrOGc&feature=PlayList&p=57C3CA9880916DD6&index=6 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIh8_UJrOGc&feature=PlayList&p=57C3CA9880916DD6&index=6
 
 
LOL
the same film the same propaganda. That's all u have to offfer? I offer live footage wile your's is just a bunch of nonsence. So that's were u get ure info, no wonder you are so undereducated in this kind of field.


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 04:37
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Oh boy, go to school for god sakes and learn something

 

Vukovar was steam rolled my undereducated friend, and was not left in tact most of the buildings were left  in ruins, since u have not been their unlike ive been at that time. Tactical move? your forces calculated  would take within  days. That comment their shows that its an excuse just to win an argument in a subject u have no expirence with. The JNA was already surroned the city and was shelling it constantly with their forces steam rolling in the city. Ive seen the video and just saw it as a propaganda movie nothing more, while u have seen it in films, ive have expirenced it in real life. The only tactical decsion was in the last couple of weeks of the battle(after the major losses they had) were they desided not to operate in single file in vukovar rather to spread out with infantry surrounding the armour divisions. Which showed what a discrace it realy was.

 

How can it be steam rolled in 3 months? Steam rolled means it was quickly and utterly destroyed.

 

Yes tactical move. It is well known that the Germans requested the Croats retreat in order to gain international sympathy.

 

If you would have actually watched the video you wouldn’t need to lie about it and say things that were clearly explained in the video.

 

Oh boy another one claiming “he was there”. Whatever. You’re obviously bias because you are a Croat and you haven’t even used any sources.

 

Ethnic clensing? budy the serbs fled them themselves before our army had entered knin. Only the army was left to defend  the rest of the krajina. So how's that ethinc clensing. While serbs have been putting our people in consentration camps and forces 190000 croats out of the krajina.

 

You don’t know what you are talking about.

 

"CROATIA IS SAID TO OUST MANY"

by David Binder,

New York Times, Wednesday, December 8, 1993

(excerpts, quote):
Zagreb, Croatia. The government of Croatia has forced thousands of its enemies from their homes and from the country, according to the new Zagreb office of the human rights organization of Helsinki Watch.

The actions have been directed mostly against Serbs, who once constituted a sizable minority in Croatia, but also against CROATS opposed to the rule of President Franjo Tudjman, said Ivan Zvonimir Cicak, who heads Helsinki watch of Croatia.

"SINCE 1991, THE CROATIAN AUTHORITIES HAVE BLOWN UP OR RAZED 10,000 (TEN THOUSAND!) HOUSES, MOSTLY OF SERBS, BUT ALSO HOUSES OF CROATS," Mr. Cicak, who is cataloguing the abuses, said in an interview. "IN SOME CASES THEY DINAMITED HOMES WITH THE FAMILIES INSIDE. WHOLE FAMILIES WERE KILLED. Many were vounded."

[...]

...Mr. Cicak said one of the Croats who lost his home was Ante Semjar, "a writer who is a member of the PEN club." He added: "He had a big house on the island of Pag. They blew it up because he had criticized the regime."

In September a building in the coastal city of Split where Croatian dissidents planned to publish an independent newspaper called Dalmatinske Novine (Dalmatian Newspaper) was destroyed "with 100 kilograms (200+ pounds) of dynamite," Mr. Cicak said.

He said the Tudjman Government, in a statement by Foreign Minister mate Granic in May, had acknowledged the destruction of "7,000 houses" of Croatian Serbs. So far, the justice authorities have investigated about 100 (hundred) cases of dynamiting, "but there have been no prosecutions," he said.

ALTOGETHER ABOUT 280,000 (TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTY THOUSAND) CROATIAN SERBS HAVE FLED THE COUNTRY as the result of the dynamite campaign and other measures...

(End quote) 

 

MEDAK POCKET SLAUGHTER
The unpunished genocide


On Thursday, September 9, 1993, Croatian Army made sudden unprovoked attack on the Serbian villages in "Medak pocket" region. The whole region, the farthest West part of Krajina Military Frontier, was Serb majority populated for at least four centuries. During WWII, at the time of existence of Hitler supported puppet Independent State of Croatia, the Medak and surrounding villages as well as nearby town of Gospic was especially hard hit by Croat fascist - Ustashi bestialities. In the small mountain village of Medak itself 861 Serbs, men, women and children were slaughtered.

Weary of the horrors of the past that did not leave one single family without casualties, Krajina Serbs fought bitterly not to be at mercy of yet another Independent State of Croatia. At the moment when resurrected Ustashi elements took over the government in Croatia and declared that they will follow their WWII chauvinist model and declare secession from Yugoslavia, Krajina people declared loyalty to the federation. With some help from the Yugoslav Federal Army the region remained under loyalist control.

In comes "International Community" which after collapse of the Soviet Union got to be under full control from Washington. They recognized Croatian independence in borders designed by Croatian Communist dictator Tito. This meant that Serbian right to exist let alone to exercise their right to control their destiny, their UN declared right for self-determination was denied.

But the Serbs were not to let the weapons down. Washington sends its diplomat Cyrus Vance to bring "peace" to the region. The plan is to fool the Serbs that America seeks non-violent, negotiated solution to the war. America needs time to equip and train its Nazi Croat proxies.

Medak and surrounding Serb villages found themselves in a pocket. The surrounding areas as well as nearby town of Gospic were already cleansed of the Serbs (and the "International Community" did not allow rare fools to try to come to their homes and property). "Medak pocket" got to be a peninsula, surrounded on three sides by Ustashi Croat territory.

The Croat attack on Medak was a test of just what the American master will tolerate. It proved that they will tolerate everything. The model of Ustashi bestiality followed by American silence will then be repeated in Western Slavonia (UNPROFOR sector "West") in May 1995, Western Krajina (UNPROFOR sectors "North" and "South" in August 1995) when entire, huge regions were cleansed of the indigenous Serb population.

The last to go was Eastern Slavonia (UNPROFOR sector "East") which was "demilitarized" (read: the Serbs were disarmed) by America and then given to the control of the Croat fascists in January 1998.

In many different aspects the case of Medak pocket slaughter is educational at least for the reason that it happened very early in the conflict before Western media succeeded to satanize one whole people through its "mass rape", "besieged Sarajevo", "concentration camps", "Srebrenica mass graves" and other Big Lie campaigns.

Medak pocket massacres prove full complicity of the Inter-Nazi-onal Community in the genocide perpetrated on the Serbian people. Medak pocket, since February 1992, was to be protected by UNPROFOR (United Nation Protection Force).

In early morning hours Croat Army shelled and then made all out attack, at the Serb villages. They were supported by tanks...

UNPROFOR stayed uninvolved. This is what they have found when they entered the disaster zone:

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/images/Red_Ball5074.gif - http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/Medak-docs.html - General Jean Cot: "I have found no sign of human or animal life in the several villages we passed today. The destruction is total, systematic and deliberate." UNPROFOR Press Release, September 19, 1993, Zagreb.

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/sorry.html - Lt. Colonel Jim Kevin (according to Reuters): "UN high officers assessed Croatian soldiers had been ordered by highest command to tear down those villages. This could have been ordered by high ranking generals only."

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/sorry.html - Ivanka Rajcevic, survivor : "The Ustashi said 'This is a Serbian village, turn it into a slaughterhouse. Slaughter everybody!.'"

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/sorry.html - Dr. Zeljko Karan, specialist of forensic medicine examines mutilated bodies and writes a report. "Blood suffusions and contusions were caused by strokes of a dull mechanical tool. [The victims] were then thrust into a fire while still alive. Many had stab wounds... It is not necessary to comment how the imprisoned were treated... The UNPROFOR representatives were present at the identification process and forensic treatment, especially at the most illustrative cases."

 

 

Second, if you didnt know that the weaponry was stationed in zagreb, slavonija, well across croatia. In  1991 we had  could have blocked the city routes, shut down oil reserves, blockades, ect just like we did in the rest of the war were we surrounded garrisons. Tudman did not allow that acording to international pressure, afraid of being not recognized. So hence we gave the weapons on a silver platter.

 

 

Why are you denying it? It is well documented that the Germans supplied Croatia even though there was an embargo. I just showed you a documentary of it. It had German markings on it. The Germans and Croatians were working together (yet again) to fight the Serbs. Show me proof that Tudman gave weaponry to the Serb JNA.

 

Again since the embargo was on, germans couldnt have supplied us, we went to the black market in germany in various parts of eastern europe to pay for our weapons. Second NATO did not train our troops first of all, we had thousands of  croats serving armies across the world better then the JNA, instructors, even within the JNA, and outside and got training.

 

But the Germans did provide help. Several journalists have covered this story. Even though there was an embargo look at how the muslims here admit and are happy that the Bosniaks got weaponry and help from other Islamic countries. To get to the point, the Embargo was a fake and only against Serbia. Your silly rant about the Croat forces serving across the world being even better then the JNA and superior instructors is a joke. You honestly sound like you are not older then 15. Your arguments don’t provide any depth.

 

Well, i dnt really give a dam if you believe me or not. SInce i know whats true unlike an undereducated person like you. First of all i have bad typing skills which is 90% of the problem and since im not english canadian or even american and was not born in either countries. 

 

I’m not English, Canadian or American nor was I born in any of those countries. And it isn’t your bad typing, your spelling, but the order of your thoughts. It shows clear signs of ignorance pertaining the subject.

 

Not true again, It was all croatian territory it was just seperated into kingdoms, under the hausburg rule. and far as i know it was never under serbian rule, or athority only a bunch of scare imagrants fleeing into the region.

 

Yes it was under Austrian rule but Croatia isn’t Austria. How does Croatia get right to rule Serb majority Krajina? And scared immigrants fleeing? More like Serbs who fought for Krajina when Croats couldn’t because they got their rears handed to them by the Turks? Serbs fought for Krajina because Croats wouldn’t/couldn’t. Even in WW2 the Ustashe tried to cleanse Krajina of all Serbs, but I guess it took all the help of the western world to finally do it.

 

wikipedia? youtube? thats where u get your information from ? one video? from uncredible sources were every one can tamper with it. Tisk tisk.

 

I posted Encyclopedia Britannica, National geographic and American military maps of ethnicities in Yugoslavia that clearly showed a Serb majority in Krajina and also the historical context of Krajina.

 

yes, over the years they overpopulated but does not meen it is serbian. If it's under a crown and the kingdoms it doesnt matter.

 

No it wasn’t “over the years they over populated” it was completely EMPTY and the Serbs were settled there to defend Europe against the Turks because the Croats couldn’t do it. And Croatia didn’t have a kingdom since the Austrians made them their servants.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAZJoh_OhEs - o here's  a footage of serbs leaving the krajina even before storm. Only the army was left

 

That just shows Serbs fleeing. It doesn’t prove that they weren’t killed. It’s very well known and documented that this was violent. Do you want to see pictures of the victims? I can PM them to you. I won’t post them here they are way too violent.

 

your info proved that it was not even serbian it was just populated by serbs. Which are two diffrent things. Then you just said that kosovo then is albanian. Nazis u say? what has nazis have to do of albanian imagration into kosovo that was far before fasicam and the nazis existed. How old are you, to belive in this kind of C***

 

My info proved that Krajina was not part of Croatia, neither was Dalmatia or Slavonia. Mind reading it again? Yes Albanians were supporters of Kosovo and made Greater Albania with their help. I know Albanian immigration was earlier as well.

 

Oh then zemun and vojvodina must be croatian hungarian and german then. Since before the first world war, the serbians were only 20% of the population, while the hungarians,croatians, and germans had most of the populace.

 

Where is your source???

 

And back to the SFRJ, serbia like all other nations were under yugoslavia, so had to accept yugoslav law, a man of  a leader of one province in yugoslavia could not make those kind of decisons. So that makes it illegal. Period

 

I’m pretty sure Milosevic could because Voivodina and Kosovo were in Serbia. In any case it doesn’t matter what Milosevic did in Serbia, we are talking about what Alija Izetbegovic did in Bosnia. Focus.

 

Second, russia was under the rule of stalin. And stalin did not care of ties, he only cared of how much territory he could have control of, and no one of other nations in the USSR was allowed to be second to him.

 

same thing why Stalin did not join up with China's Mao. Stalin wanted his brand of communism only his kind, a no others. No matter how close they were politacly.

 

So what? What does this have to do with anything?

 

And the fact that we captured the 21 kordun korps in knin 5,000 POW's, and the fact is that we already captured and saw serb units retreating, or we wouldnt have occupied western bosina and heading into eastern bosnia.

 

Source?

 

The fact that in order for the JNA units have to conquer something, it has to be civilians and were not even basicaly good at that(3months with heavy losses). Which show's how pathetic the jNA was, even when it was listed the 4th army in europe. Someone even has to wipe their asses to win something.

 

It is well documented that Croatians were armed in Vukovar and were holding the civilians as human shields. UN human rights was even baffled by this. And Vukovar fell because the Croatians let it fall in order to gain sympathy.

 

 
 
 
 
Armed with what? some Rpg's amunition's vs an entire army unit with tanks artillery planes. Haha ya lightly put eh?
 
source for Korduns
pics of surrender
ÄŚedo Bulat
Tošo Pajić
Dragan Kovačić
 
ill show u the vid later
 
Source vojvodina

According to the 1880 census, the Hungarians were third largest ethnic group in the Vojvodina region and made up 22.6% in the population (the largest group were http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs - Serbs with 35.5%, and the second largest were http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans - Germans with 24.4%). In the next census, in 1890, the Hungarians were the second largest group, having increased to 24.4% (The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs - Serb participation was 34.4%, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans - German were 24.2%). By the 1910 census, the percent of ethnic Hungarians had increased to 28.1% (with the percent of Serbs at 33.8%, and the percent of Germans at 21.4%).

The new temporary borders established in 1918 and permanent ones defined by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Trianon - Treaty of Trianon in 1920 put an end to Hungarian immigration. After http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I - World War I , present-day Vojvodina was included into the newly formed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Serbs,_Croats,_and_Slovenes - Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (later known as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia - Kingdom of Yugoslavia ), and settling of Hungarians declined. On the contrary, many Hungarians of Vojvodina wanted to live in the post-Trianon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary - Hungarian state, and immigrated to Hungary, which was to be one of several emigration waves from Vojvodina. The inter war years was generally marked by a standstill of the Hungarian population. During these times, their numbers were at around 370,000 - 413,000 and they constituted 24-26% of the entire population of Vojvodina. The outbreak of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II - Second World War caused some disruptions in population numbers, but more importantly it created brutal tensions between the Hungarian and Serb communities.

 


Posted By: Tomo
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 04:48
Vukovar
 
 
 
 
 



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