My articles on Alans
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25390
Printed Date: 17-Apr-2024 at 14:49 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: My articles on Alans
Posted By: Ardashir
Subject: My articles on Alans
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 23:35
I've decided to write a series of articles on Alans and their modern descendants (Ossets). Here's the 1st part :
http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com/post-138.aspx - http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com/post-138.aspx
Please provide me with your opinions and suggestions and also provide me with further sources if you know one.
Regards
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Replies:
Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 00:17
Not bad. yek meghdar moshkele virayeshi dare. dar zemn citation yadet nare. Good luck
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Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 00:36
thnx. my sources will be provided in the last article.
regards
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 08:38
Great article, but "Alan" doesn't relate to Iran, as I said in this thread: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22988&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22988&PN=1 it probably means "Country of the Eagle", you know the famous castle of Ala-mut (Eagle`s nest)? I think "Alua" is the only Persian word for "Eagle" (Arabic Uqab). Alans themsleves called their country "Aluank", it is interesting to read "The History of Aluank" by Medieval Alani historian Moses of Kalankatuyk, he believes the word Alua was also the nickname of the first king of Alans.
Of course I believe the original name of this country was "Alaupan" [alau+pa+an] (Country of the Quadruped Eagle or Griffin), there was no "l" sound in the Old Persian language, so in this language it could be changed to "Arpan" (the most famous river in this region is "Arpa River" which has been mentioned in the ancient Greek sources too), then Parthian "Ardhan" and Middle Persian (Pahlavi) "Arran".
In Greek the name has been changed to "Albania", it is interesting that people of the modern country of Albania in Europe call their country "Shqiperia" which just means “Country of the Eagle”.
The Avestan name of this country is "Saini" or "Saena", Middle Persian "Senmurv" and Modern Persian "Simurgh", which is also a mythical bird
http://www.avesta.org/ka/yt13sbe.htm - http://www.avesta.org/ka/yt13sbe.htm :
We worship the Fravashis of the holy men in the Aryan countries; -> Iranian We worship the Fravashis of the holy women in the Aryan countries. We worship the Fravashis of the holy men in the Turanian countries; We worship the Fravashis of the holy women in the Turanian countries. We worship the Fravashis of the holy men in the Sairimyan countries; -> Sarmatians We worship the Fravashis of the holy women in the Sairimyan countries. We worship the Fravashis of the holy men in the Saini countries; -> Alans We worship the Fravashis of the holy women in the Saini countries. We worship the Fravashis of the holy men in the Dahi countries; We worship the Fravashis of the holy women in the Dahi countries. We worship the Fravashis of the holy men in all countries; We worship the Fravashis of the holy women in all countries.
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Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 09:17
great notes, dear cyrus
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 20:31
Moved to "Steppe Nomads & Central Asia."
BTW
Dear Ardashir, could you please provide an abstract for your article in English since we are an English speaking forum.
Thanks.
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Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 21:11
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Moved to "Steppe Nomads & Central Asia."
BTW
Dear Ardashir, could you please provide an abstract for your article in English since we are an English speaking forum.
Thanks. |
No, it's not possible, because my English is not good enough. That's why I posted it in that thread to get feedback from Iranian members.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 21:47
By the abstract I didn't mean the translation of the whole article into English. Just a short paragraph, maximum 10 sentences describing what article is about. Otherwise, all the non-Farsi speaking members would be deprived of the opportunity to participate in the discussion.
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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 22:03
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
In Greek the name has been changed to "Albania", it is interesting that people of the modern country of Albania in Europe call their country "Shqiperia" which just means “Country of the Eagle”. |
I am sure you know that Alb- means white, Albania, Albion, Alpi montes.....
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Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 22:21
Well, even if you are Iranian, then that's Arabic and not Farsi, or am I wrong? So... I'd really like a translation of that into either English (preferrable), or any other language the most of us speak. :D Thanks,
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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2008 at 00:18
The article is in Persian (we use Arabic Script)
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Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2008 at 11:48
Originally posted by Sarmat12
By the abstract I didn't mean the translation of the whole article into English. Just a short paragraph, maximum 10 sentences describing what article is about. Otherwise, all the non-Farsi speaking members would be deprived of the opportunity to participate in the discussion. |
Dear Sarmat,
Even though I can easily read and translate almost any English text (exept for philosophical ones) into Persian, I have extreme dificulties in writing in English. Also I would like to point out that my articles are JUST a collection of some English and Persian (both online and books) articles and documents on Alans. But since you, and perhaps a few others, may be intersted in getting an abstract, I respect it and will provide that after I'm done writting the rest of the series. ( just one part to write by now )
Thanks to your interest, BTW
Regards
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Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2008 at 11:49
Part 2:
http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com/post-139.aspx - http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com/post-139.aspx
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Posted By: Emil_Diniyev
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2008 at 12:01
Originally posted by beorna
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
In Greek the name has been changed to "Albania", it is interesting that people of the modern country of Albania in Europe call their country "Shqiperia" which just means “Country of the Eagle”. |
I am sure you know that Alb- means white, Albania, Albion, Alpi montes..... |
I think everyone knows about the ancient Caucasian Alban kingdom in the modern day Azerbaijan.
Albania simply means country of Mountains in Latin.
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2008 at 15:14
Originally posted by beorna
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
In Greek the name has been changed to "Albania", it is interesting that people of the modern country of Albania in Europe call their country "Shqiperia" which just means “Country of the Eagle”. |
I am sure you know that Alb- means white, Albania, Albion, Alpi montes..... |
Words could have different meaning in different languages or even in one language, what does it prove? Do you want to say Alans were Greek? "Alupan" (l->r) Arpan in Old Persian (p->b) Alban in Greek (p->v) Alvank in Armenian, ...
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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2008 at 21:41
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
[
Words could have different meaning in different languages or even in one language, what does it prove? Do you want to say Alans were Greek? "Alupan" (l->r) Arpan in Old Persian (p->b) Alban in Greek (p->v) Alvank in Armenian, ... | Come on, I am sure you know what I meant. The Alans have nothing to do with Balkan Albanians, as less as with British people on Albion or with people from the Alps. And an eagle you can find all around the world, Germany, Prussia, Russia, USA .....
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2008 at 05:50
You are absolutely wrong because Alans had migrated to most of those regions, Alani-map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2008 at 19:28
there is no evidence whatseover that Alans moved into Northafrica. by litterary evidence the Vanadals killed all Alans in Spain. and the map doesn't show Alans in Brittany, from which we know they settled there.
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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2008 at 22:44
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
You are absolutely wrong because Alans had migrated to most of those regions, Alani-map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg |
Your map is a mixture of the migration of Alans and of the Hasdingi, Silingi and Suebi. The Alans were very important for the politics in the 5th century. But the Iberian Alans subdued to Geisarich in Spain and moved to North Africa were they became a part of the Vandali. But all this has nothing to do with Albania or the eagle. They were important, you don't need to invent (hi)stories.
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Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 19:34
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA )
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2005-01/1105078922 - http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2005-01/1105078922
I believe Alans were originally a group whose males take Y-DNA G2 maker, and those who take G2 maker are probably descendants of Alans or Scythians if Ossetians are directly descended from the Alans.
Most males of Iran males take G1 maker, so I think Alans and Irans were brothers but not same one.
There was ever a Mongol tribe named Asud who was descended from Alans, today some Mongol's surname are Asud, I hope we find G2 marker among those family with surname Asud.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 20:53
Originally posted by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
There was ever a Mongol tribe named Asud who was descended from Alans |
What is the source of this claim?
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 21:43
don't forget Khubilai Khans Guard was Alan, do you think they dissappeared into nothingness?
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 21:50
I know about that. But I'd like to get more information about this Asud tribe. Does it mean that it traces back its origins to the 13th century?
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Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 04:53
In fact, the Asud was ever the most powerful tribe among eastern Mongolians after Yuan's withdrawal from Beijing, Asud's leader Arugtai Tayisi ever led eastern Mongolians struggled against western Mongolians Oriats and Ming Chinese for over 30 years. The Oriats finally defeated Arugtai Tayisi, the Asud lost their power and known as a sub-clan of the Kharchins later. During conflict between the Tsahar(Khan's tribe) and the west wing of the Mongols, the Asud was destroyed, some joined the Kharchins, and others were absorbed by the Ar Horchins and the Manchus.
The Alans and the Khipchaks were one of the most important royal guard of the Khans, they withdraw from Beijing to Mongolia following the Khan, and known as the asud and the Kharchin in Mongolia later.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 05:07
I see. The name of Alans from the Ancient Russian chronicles was Yas (As, Jass) the name Asug seems to be related to it.
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Posted By: Bandeirante
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 16:13
An extremely rare Northern cluster of Y DNA J1 that is only found in Eastern Anatolia, in the Caucasus, in the Iranian shores of the Caspian Sea, in Belgium and in Portugal could be associated to the Alans because it's not found in any other place.
http://j1bm365.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html - http://j1bm365.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html
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