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Category: General History
Forum Name: General World History
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Topic: The History of BulgariaPosted By: TheBulgarian
Subject: The History of Bulgaria
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 15:08
I will give you a short presentation of my country and it's history.This is my first post so dont be so critic :P
Part One
There are a lot of opinions about the proto - bulgarians and there
origin but recent researches found out that they came in Europe from
their first motherland Pamir.Proto - Bulgarians were really well
advanced nation.They got calendar according to the moon(Moon Calendar)
and also the most important thing which characterices mostly the
development of the tribe - Statehood.First rulers of the earliest
bulgarian kingdom were the Dulo khlan who participate even in our later
cultural and political development(The founder of Danube Bulgarian -
Khan Asparuh;Khan Tervel,Khan Krum,Khan Omurtag,then for thousand years
the connection is lost but in 1185,tzar Asen and his brothers Petar and
Ioan(Ivan or Kaloyan) are also from this family.In the beging of the
2nd-3rd century AD a vast movement of peopleS put the beging of the so
called Great migration of peoples.The proto-bulgarians also participate
in this migration and settled around the Kavkaz mnt.In the period
between 3-6 century the proto-bulgarians were parts of defferent
alliances,the strongest of which was the Atila's one.
Replies: Posted By: TheBulgarian
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 16:14
ThousandS of years,my mistake sorry.
Posted By: kafkas
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 23:24
So were Bulgarians originally Turkic?
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2008 at 23:13
Hello, Kafkas!
I will try to explane to you who are the bulgarians. The bulgarians are a descendent of the tocharians, which is eastern branch of the cimmerians (which is an eastern branch ot the thracians). About 1800 B.C. they migrated from the Circumpontean area (the region around the Black Sea, in this case-northern part of the sea) to the Near East, especially Nothern Messopotamia and the Armenian Plateau, where they became the nobble class of the Huritti people (Haru/Huri/Naharina, later - Mitanni Kingdom). Middleages arabian chronist Al-Hamidani (Al-Chamdani), who was writing in XI-XII century A.D. wrote: "the nobble class of the huritti is called "Balchari/Balkhari". ", which means "bulgarians" in our own language. I have no idea how he knows about that so later. In fact, these people was completed of many tribes, because one of these tribes called "gutei" ("kutii" in assirian and bulgarian transcribtion) was in this region long time before that and even they destroyed the mighty Acadian Empire about 2200 B.C. This tribe (the "kutii", or "kut-rig-guri"/"kut-ur-guri"/kut-ragi") was one of the bulgarian tribes in 5th-8th century A.D. together with the another one tribe the "utii" ("ut-rig-guri"/"ut-ur-guri") and the many others, like the nobble "onno-gund-uri", also "ono-guri", "vahan-duri" and etc. The Khazarian khagan Josef wrotes: that "...they (the "onno-gond-uri"-ans) was so many, as the sand in the sea..." A lot of sources considering this people to the huns. Procopius from Cesarea wrotes in 5th-6th century A.D.: "In the ancient times the huns "kutriguri" and "utiguri"was known as cimmerians, and they lived in the lands near to Babylonia. Once, when they was hunted as ussual, they saw a doe and followed it cross the strait called Meotida...". The medieval hungarian "Chronical of Kheszai" wrotes almost the same: "In the ancient times In the lands of Evilat near to Babylonia, lives a giant Menrot. He had two sons Hunor and Magyar. Once when they hunted as ussual they saw a doe which crossed the strait of Meotida..." In the Chronic of the Konstanz sinod, Bulgaria (even falled under turkish upression) was presented with his king and a state coat of arms and there is written: "The emperor of Bulgarians and a king of chaldeans (babylonians/summerians)..." The chaldeans often is related with the Magy from a New Testament. And there are an old russian chronical from XVI century: "...because the bulgarians, p'rsi and vlukhvi (the Magy on bulgarian and slavic languages) are one and the same people, and all of them are settlers on this land...". And again Constantin Manasi - a bizantinian chronist from XII century A.D. about the conquests of the legendary egyptian faraon Sessostris: "And then he called helpers from the huns and conqoured all the earth. and he gived a gift to any nation, and gived Assiria to the huns. And he take to the huns a name partyans, which means skitians...". By the way, in shummerian chronicals is written that the founder ot the legendary town of Uruk (Unug on shumerian transcription), king Mes-ki-ag-ga-she-ir was came in Shumeria from the mighty town of Ban - "the town of a bow", ussualy localized in the Northern Messopotamia most often identificated with Haran, where later was known the huritian Kingdom. all of these should be without any relation with your cuestion if the nobbles of the huritians wasn't believers to the very popular later indo-aryan gods Indra, Mitra, Varuna and the Nassatians. The truth is this gods appears in India after one of great migrations of the haru-people/hurians/huriti from Mesopotamia and Zagros mauntains to Northern India, where they named Haryana-a small land beetween rivers Indus and Ganga. Another branch of these people (maybe earlier) was settled in Baktria, which capital was popular long time after that as Balkh/Balch, and that means ("head") "primary", "major". Later indian chronicals as "Mahabarata", "Vedas", "Puranas" can give to You a lot of information about the mighty kingdom of Bahlika/Balhika which they fought with. One of the most popular "bahlika" gods was Kubera, and of the kings Kardama, and this are some of the most popular middle-age bulgarians king's names. I gues the tocharians are onother emigrant wave from the Nord-Pontic and Nord-Caucasus area about XVIII century B.C. Anyway, they was one and the same people as "Bahlika" and the indian sources confirm that. The firs (known to me) migration back to Europe is about 6th century B.C. at the time of persian king Kyrus. This information can be find very unexpectable in the irish chronical "Labor Gabala Eren", when is written that the people of "Fir Bolg" was migrated from Thracia to Ireland across the Europe, and also in old Bavarian (bayern) chronicles of monastery of Melch/Melk (?) and The chronic of the monk Aventin presented by prof. Fritzler. In the bavarian chronicles is confirmed that old bavarian people wasn't a germanic people, but they was emmigrant from east, crossing the continent alongside of Armenia and Caucasus to the Panonia, and their first ethnonim wasn't bayern (bavarian), but balgharian (balkh-arian). The next one migration was about 4th century B.C. and it is in touch with the wars of Alexander the Great in the Middle Asia. The next one is in 2th century B.C. and it is cause of the wars beetween the huns and skito-sarmatian people. Actually, this is a period, which continue to 2th century A.D. In this period is one of the greatest migrations of the bulgarian people from Asia to Europe and settlement northern of the caucasus mountain. The next one (small migration) is in 5th century A.D. during the Great Migration of the Nations. But the real great migration for bulgarians was in 6th century A.D. because of the coordinated attack against Baktria/Balkhara of the persians, turks and indians. Bulgarian people was taking part in the First Hunic Empire in Asia (3th century B.C. - 2th century A.D.) and the Second Hunic (Atilla's) Empire in Europe (4th -5th century A.D.), beeng in close rellations with the huns. After that beetween 453 and 558 bulgarians became to create his own empire fighting with Bizantinian Empire (and defeated it) and they are the creators of i.e. "Saltovo-Mayaki" culture, ussualy considerred to sarmatians (actually, there is not a big difference beetween the bulgarians and the sarmatians). Unfortunately, after 558 began the movement of the avars and turks to the west and bulgarian people fall in turkish and avarish domination untill (probably) 626, when the bulgarian king (kana-subigi) Kubrat/Khuvrat/Kurt-bat defeat the enemies and recreated his empire. After his death about 665 the hazars/khazars conquored again the eastern part of his kingdom. The third son of Kubrat - Aspar-rukh (also Espor-rig/Espere-rih; "rukh/rig/rih" is the same latin "rex/reges/rix"), enlarge his kingdom with the most of balkanic teritoriaes of the Bizantine Empire, which was settled by bulgarians two centuries earlier. This was about 678-689. The oldest one of Kubrat's sons Bayan, or Boyan (or bat' Boyan) stayed in his possessions in todays Ukraina, becaming a vassal of the hazar's kagan. The second one of the Kubrat's sons, called Kotrag, migrated to the middle course of the Volga river, vhere his sucessors create the Volga-Bulgaria, one of the most powerfull states in the world beetween XI and XIII century. The rest of history You cad ride from any enciclopaedia or textbook.
Sorry about my english! Wish You well!
Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Arian
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: brunodam
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2008 at 03:33
Very interesting post. But a bit confusing with too many data. Anyway here it is a website about the history of the Bulgars: http://www.hunmagyar.org/turan/tatar/bulgar.html - www.hunmagyar.org/turan/tatar/bulgar.html
I am interested in understanding IN DETAIL what made the Bulgars a "Slav" people around the X century. I believe this is one of the few cases in human history where a population "changes" linguistic ethnicity. For example: the Magyars maintaned their uralo-altaic language......why this did not happened with the Bulgars? Brunodam
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Posted By: brunodam
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2008 at 17:54
Originally posted by brunodam
Very interesting post. But a bit confusing with too many data. Anyway here it is a website about the history of the Bulgars: http://www.hunmagyar.org/turan/tatar/bulgar.html - www.hunmagyar.org/turan/tatar/bulgar.html
I am interested in understanding IN DETAIL what made the Bulgars a "Slav" people around the X century. I believe this is one of the few cases in human history where a population "changes" linguistic ethnicity. For example: the Magyars maintaned their uralo-altaic language......why this did not happened with the Bulgars? Brunodam
In the section "The Bulgarians" of the above website there it is written: ".... the Balkan Bulgarians... after the VII century..... moved south under Khan Asparuch.... and carved out a powerful state..... in Moesia and Trace. They brought Slavic settlers in the region under their sway, and gradually they assimilated. By the X century, the old Turkic Bulgarian language had been replaced by the new Slavonic Bulgarian." How this happened without war? How the Slavs were able to impose their language to their rulers, the Turkic Bulgarians? I am puzzled by these questions.....Usually a language is imposed by the dominant group, not the contrary: can someone help me, please?
One answer that comes to my mind is that perhaps the original Bulgarians were wiped out by epidemies and/or low fertility rates, and so the Slavs outnumbered them until they took control of everything in the region (in a similar way to what has happened in Jamaica -for example- with the original Indians and White rulers actually outnumbered by the Blacks: but the english language of the Whites is the one spoken in Jamaica, not the African languages!).
Another answer can be found in the influence of the Orthodox Church, that imposed the Christian language of the Slavs instead of the Pagan language of the Turkic Bulgarians: but why -in this case- were not considered by the Church the original Romanized Thracians (with the Vlach presence)?
Hope someone can help. Brunodam
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 03:19
As a Vlach from northern Bulgaria (near Vidin) I will try to answer your questions.
All scholars indicate that the Slavs assimilated the original Bulgars in a few centuries after the seventh century. Read this writing from R. Wolff about :
<<The 'Second Bulgarian Empire.' Its Origin and History to 1204 R. Wolff
AFTER its arrival on the Balkan peninsula in the late seventh century, the Hunnic tribe of the Bulgars was gradually assimilated by the Slavic population which had preceded it by more than a century, and which it had conquered. The ancient Bulgar language apparently fell out of use except for the formal dating of inscriptions, where its appearance, transcribed in Greek letters, has given rise to several scholarly efforts at interpretation, the more recent of which are now accepted. In 813 (says Theophanes) Khan Krum drank with the Slav boyars from the skull of the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus I; and Krum's ambassador, Dargomer, who appears in the sources in the year 812, has a name that is clearly Slavic. Soon afterward, Slavic names were given in the family of the Khans itself. The aristocracy seems, however, to have remained Bulgar beyond this date; and, as a counterweight to it, the Khans apparently created a Slavic nobility, and favored the Slavic peasantry. When the great Khan Boris abdicated in 889, and went into a monastery, his son and successor Vladimir fell under the influence of the Bulgar nobles. They seem to have attempted to restore paganism, which Boris had finally abandoned, accepting Christianity under the aegis of Byzantium after experience had convinced him that he could not hope to control and administer the church himself if he received the new religion under the auspices of Rome. When Vladimir and the Bulgar nobles appeared determined to turn back the clock, Boris emerged from the monastery, deposed and blinded Vladimir, put down the Bulgar nobles, installed his second son Symeon on the throne, and enforced the final adoption of Christianity, this time with Slavic as its official language. http://www.kroraina.com/bulgar/wolff_1.html#7. - [7]
Under Symeon began the long and bitter struggle with Byzantium, during which the Bulgar Tsars, now Khans no longer, strove to make themselve Emperors not only over the Bulgars but over the Romans (Rhomaeans, citizens of the Byzantine Empire) as well.
7. For this celebrated series of episodes, see Runciman, op. cit., pp. 99-134; see Zlatarski, i, 2, pp. 254 ff. for the arguments in favor of dating the adoption of Slavonic as the liturgical language in 893. See also F. Dvornik, Les Slaves, Byzance et Rome au IXe siecle (Paris, 1926), pp. 283 ff. A. A. Vasiliev, 'The "Life" of St. Peter of Argos and its Historical Significance,' Traditio, V (1947), 163-191, discusses (pp. 177 ff.) the process of Slavonization, and brings together from little known and seldom cited sources considerable evidence bearing on the early Bulgarian campaigns in Greece.>>
Khan Boris seems to be the one that officially made Slavic the language of the Bulgars (with the final adoption of Christianity).
Bulgarianvlachus
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 02:27
Balkh-Aryan
I will try to explane to you who are the bulgarians. The bulgarians are a descendent of the tocharians, which is eastern branch of the cimmerians (which is an eastern branch ot the thracians).
Bulgars, Tocharians, Cimmerians and Thracians are the same peoples or linked? incredible, I've never heard of such a theory I hope you can proove it.
Bulgars were and are Turkic according to mainstream history.
This doesn't make modern day "Bulgarians" Turkic, the Bulgars were a small element, they ruled the area and created an Empire however were later assimilated by the Slavs, the only Bulgar thing remaining being the Bulgar identity.
The closest living language to old Bulgar is Chuvash, a Turkic language.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 04:40
Yes. This is ridiculous Bulgars=Tocharians
Bulgars were Turkic nobody proved otherwise.
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 11:31
O.K., guys, I will write again, even I'm already tied to do it again and again. At first, nobody knows who was the cimmerians. Until now the science agree the term "thraco-cimmerians". Second fact is that more than a half of lexical fond in our language is not slavic, but not turkic too, so there is no from where co come, especially if it is strongly related to the todays language of a small east - iranian groups in Pamir. The bulgarian grammar is also completely different than slavic and turcik grammars, but very simmilar to this pamirian language. All the bulgarian's bloodship (?) words/notions are specific and not slavic, but not turkic too. And this is very significant, I think. We have an ancient indian sources mentioning (a lot of times) about the large and mighty kingdom of Bahlika/Balhika/Balhara. You probably know it all - they are famous. There's armenian sources too, like "Ashharacuits" and others. The only hypothetic refers about the proto-bulgars eastern than the Tyanshan mountain is in chinese sources "Tsyen-Han-Shu","Ho-Han-Shu","Wey-Shu"and"Suy-Shu": "Po-le"/"Po-lo-le"/"Po-lo-ti"/ Pu-quo". They could be proto-bulgars, but most probably they are not. Even they was proto-bulgars, You know well in this time the region of Tarim was settled of tochars and outher indo-aryan groups, but not of turcik. The turcik just didn't exist before 5th century A.D.. But about the huns I wrote yet. Anyway, it is impossible to find some bulgarians in the region of Mongolia and Altay, but they existed very sure in Bactria and Sogdiana since 8th century B.C. and maybe much more early in !3th century B.C. As You wish, if You can date more accurately the events from "Vedas", "Mahabharata" and etc. The thesis that bulgarian nation have a turkic origin is based only on the presumptions that bulgarian was huns, but huns was turkic. (All of the earlyest sources separate the bulgarians from the huns, when talk about them.)The first one is not right, even our first known dynasty in Europa was hunic and hunic tribes took a part in our ethnogenesis. But in that time we already had a formed bulgarian ethnos from almost 2000 years. The second one, the theory that the huns was turkic is not still proved surely enough. They was may be an uralic group most likely. In either case the anthropologycal materials and saved pictures (realy a lot) of proto-bulgarian shows to us an europoid appearance from the pamiro-fergan sub-race, as it is now. Of course, there is mongoloid and mixed skulls in the graves too. There in not well defined borders in the steppes. And to my people was had live for a time in the steppes. So there was some mixing. But when it was happen the bulgarian ethnos was already formed with his own name from more than thousend of years. Did I make my self clear enough? There is A lot of documents from latin, and armenian (thanks to them!) sources which indicate a bulgarian presence in Europa more than 4 centurys before the hunic invasion. It is related to the scytho-sarmatian migration in 2th century B.C. and is is result exactly of hunic wars against tocharians and scytho-sarmatians.Then some of people migrated but the most stayed in the Middle Asia until 2thcentury A.D., but the last until 6th century A.D. They was the last emigrants of a lot of migrant waves. I can post here a tocharo-english-bulgarian dictionary, and You can see with your own eyes, what I mean. You disappointed me, guys! I tough You are serious men, loving the historiographyc provocations and to investigate the unclear cases in the science. Don't be so stupid to hold on for obsolete theories unproved with facts. The new facts must help You to change your views if You are smart and able to thinking with your own brains. I think You are that kind of people. Are You? Just try. You can also search for the investigations (books) of prof. Petar Dobrev about this. I thing there is in the net his publications. He explains very well all this. Then You will see that the turkic-protobulgars are some mysterious ethnos, which didn't exist in the sources of the proto-bulgarian's contemporarys. If You can find somewhere this non-subsistent tribe I will greet You. Wish You Well! Balkh-Aryan
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 11:36
Sorry, a technical mistake: The events in "Mahabharata" was between 13th and 8th century B.C. I apoologise about this !3th. It doesn't mean nothing.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 12:41
The most important reason for the misunderstanding that the bulgarians (the balkh-aryan people) was a branch of the huns is the facts, that in the middle of 4th century A.D. when the huns came in Europe (and find here bulgarians northern of the Caucasus mountain), the legendary hunic dynasty Dulo (or "Thulo" if You prefer) replaced the old bulgarian dynasty of Kardamites. The bulgarian people accept that situation and allied with the huns, because in this moment they was pressed between the goths and his own kinsmen - the allans. The dynasty of Kardamites was ruling the bulgars since 13th-12th century B.C., and may be it was exhausted yet. I don't know. The fact is that the hunic dynasty of Dulo has come and my people accept it. So, this dynasty has its hunic noble and military environment. This environment was i.e. "(h-)unogondurs", which, by the way has it's relations much more earlier in Shummer where "unnukudur" has sense "the central one/ the capital kind", if it is possible to talk about some towns, much less for capital cities regarding to the huns. The hunogondurs was huns, but not a mongoloid.May be just mixed race but not a lot. Mainly europoid.The bulgarians was not huns, and not mongoloid. Probably the language of hunogondurs was nearly to uralic group, than to altaic. The language of the proto-bulgarians was an indo-aryan language with insignificant uralo-altaic influence as it is still now. But the policy was made by the kingly and noble class, which was the hunogondurs. So, that's why sometimes the sources talk about "bulgarians-hunogondurs" or "hunogondurs, bulgarians and kotragians (kutrigurs)". But earliest sources separate them.In the state of Balhika/Balhara there was no hunogondurs. Only balhikas or balharas if You prefer. We was neighbours to huns twice and we had a coalitions with them, and of course we was a little bit mixed with them. But the bulgarian people had a different origin, which succeeded to save and keep. And also we are much more older ethnos then huns, with strong traditions for development of towns, farming, trades and useful arts. We was not any kind of nomads. Just some differences. May be not enough, to prove we was not huns or turks. Learn, guys, learn. And think. Wish you success! Your friend (even You can't realize this): Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 13:01
I know, You can tell me so if the bulgarian language is not slavic and not turcik, so it is probably thracian one. But it is very strange that our official literary language has really strong relations with the thracian one, which most probably dues to the medieval liturgic language. because as we know the thracians was christian believers after 3th century A.D., and probably exactly the thracians was our teachers of religion. But the dialects (which is a real living speech in any language) in Bulgaria is different than slavic, turcik and thracian languages too. It according to the scytho-sarmatian and tocharian language. And this is very strong. You may not believe that, but it is truth. So, if somebody can solve this puzzle let try to explain it, if You don't want to accept my explanation. Anyway, I wish You success! Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 13:25
By the way, the chuvash language is not a bulgarian one.The chuvash language is an ancient suvaric, and it is really very old language, but it is not bulgarian. Even we accept the huns was turcik, and they found a modern (medieval, of course) bulgarian state, the owner of the name "Bulgar/Balgar/Balkhar" was not a turcik ethnos, and this is absolutely sure. This name has an east-iranian origin. Just because the people which own it was eastern-iranian, and they use this name since 13th century B.C., and may be earlier. Yes, the hunogondurs was a small group in our ethnogenesis history (in principle they was not a small number, see the letter of Khagan Josef to Hasdai Ib'n Shapruth). But the bulgars was great numbers. You can see the Chronycle of Constantine Manasius, for example. That's why the bulgarians never need to be assimilated by the slavs to lost their turcik identity. All the slavic tribes (demographycaly calculated about 200-250 000 in the provinces of Moesya, Thracia and Macedonia, in contrast of bulgarians which was calculated about 800-900 000) between the end of 7th and the middle of 9th century A.D., was replaced to the lands northern of the Danube river. Sorry! Anyway, be lucky and healthy! Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 13:41
1. Tocharian Languages. Edited by V.Ivanov. Moscow, 1959.
2. Windekens, A.J., Le tokharien confronté avec les autres langues
indo-européennes. Louvain, 1976.
3. Burlak, S. The Historical Phonetics of Tocharian languages. Moscow, 1995.
4. Gamkrelidze T., Ivanov V. Indo-European Language and Indo-Europeans. Moscow,
1984.
5. Fasmer, M. The etymological dictionary of the Russian language. Moscow,
1986.
Notes for Dictionary:
general - Common Tocharian or Tocharian A words
italic - Tocharian B words
á, í, ú - long [a], and sounds
ç - a sound like in Sanskrit açva or in English cashier
ä - a sound similar to German Käse (cheese) or English band
ñ - a soft [n'] sound
s' - palatal [s] usually written as a little line over it
n., m., r., s. - cerebral sounds
@ - the Indo-European 'schwa' sound
Dictionary (192):
Tocharian – English – Bulgarian Dictionary:
açc- - a beginning, a start (Sanskrit ásad- - to get down, ádis - a start,
Slavic *jézda - a riding) ; see below “(h-)aide; also “adi”
(come on, start) in dialects
ak, ek - an eye (IE *okw- - an eye) ;”oko” (an eye)
akmal - a face (see ak + malañ)
amokyo - art (instr.sg.) ; “moga” (I can)
asam.khe - a variety
as's'i - exactly (particle) ;see dialect form “asal” (exactly, that’s
wright)
ats - exactly
ámpi - both (IE *ambh- + *bhó - both)
áñc - down
ánt - through, across
ánt, ánte - a forehead (IE *ant- - fore, forehead)
ant-api - both (see ámpi)
ákás'acc - to the sky
ánte - a plain ;”yasen” (clear, articulate, distinct, plain,
obvious, evident…)
áre - a plough (IE *ár- - to plough) ;”ore”/ “plug”(plough, till)
árki , árkwi- - white (IE *arg'- - white, shining; silver) ;”yarko” (brighty/
shining)
ártimár - we should love
ásta - bones (IE *kost-, *ost- - a bone) ;see proto-bulgarian “aso” (ash)
ati - grass (IE *ad- - to grow?)
bime - a thought, an idea
cake - a river (IE *tek- - to flow, to run) ; see proto-bulgarian
“chai” (a river)
ckácar, tkácer - a daughter (IE *dhutér- - a daughter) ;”dashterya” (a
daughter)
çtwar, çtwer - four (IE *kwetwores - four) ;see proto-bulgarian “twir” (four)
e-, ai- - to give (IE *ay- - to give, to take) ; “(h-)aide” ( come on
(take this, give me that))
eçane - an eye
ents-, en'k - to bear (IE *nek'- - to bear, to carry)
i- - to go (IE *ei- - to go) ; see above “(h-)aide” (come on,
start)
íkam - twenty (IE *wíkmot - twenty)
kaklyus.u - on hearing (verbal adverb) (see klyos-) ; “sluh”/ “slusha”
(Hearing, ear/ he hears)
kakmu - on coming (verbal adverb)
kaltr - he stops
käm- - to come (IE *gwem- 'come') ; see dialect forms “kam
ta”/”kuma”/”kumai” (where are you from?/come/go)
kam, keme - a ripple, a tooth (IE *gonbh- - a ledge)
känt, kant, kante - a hundred (IE *kmotom - a hundred)
kanwem - knees (dual, IE *genu- - a knee)
káryap - harm
kuryar, karyor - a purchase (IE *kwreya- - to buy)
kus - who? (IE *kwis - who) “koi” (who?)
käs - to go out, to extinguish (IE *gwes- - to extinguish) “kash” (go away!
(usually to animals, but not only))
kast - famine
kay-urs, ka-urs.e - a bull (IE *wers- - a bull) ; “krava” (a cow)
kektseñe - a body
kerciye - a palace (IE *gher- - to stockade; a settlement)
kláw - to declare, to announce (IE *kleu- - to hear) ;”kleveta” (calumny)
klots, klautso - an ear (IE *kleu- - to hear)
klyos- - to hear (IE *kleu- - to hear)
knán - to know (IE *gnó- - to know, from *gen- - kinship, a knee) ;”znam” (I know/I have a knowledge)
ko, keu - a cow (IE *gwou- - a bull) ;”govedo” (ox, bull, buffalo, cow,
calf; but also: boor, blockhead, oaf…)
krons'e - a bee (IE *k'ers- - an insect)
ksaise - old
ktsai - to grow old
ku - a dog (IE *kwon- - a dog) ;”kuche” (a dog)
kukäl, kokale - a wagon (IE *kwel- - round, a wheel) ;”kola” (a
car);”kolelo” (a wheel);”kara” (drive)
kulmänts - reed (IE *k'al@m- - straw)
kuras', krost - cold (IE *krus- - an edge of ice?)
kwyall - why? ;”k’vo?/kakvo” (what?)
laks, läks - a fish (IE *lak'@s- - fish, a salmon)
lap - a skull (Greek lophos - a nape, a hill, Slavic lob - a forehead) ;”glava” (a head)
lip- - to remain, to stay (IE *leikw- - to stay)
lk-, lyk- - to see (IE *léuk- - to see, to look)
lw - a beast ; “lav” (a leon as a beast)
lyukemo - illuminated (participle) (IE *leuk- - light)
lyutár - excessively (Welsh llid < *lúto- - rage, Russian lyuty - angry,
terrible) ;”lyut” (rage, angry)
má - not (Greek má, mé - not, Sanskrit má - don't) “ama”/”ma” (but)
mácar, mácer - a mother (IE *mátér- - a mother) ;”makya” in macedonian
dialect (a mother); “mayka”(a mother)
makí - much (IE *mag'- - large, many) ;”megi” a dialect form of “mnogo”
(many, much, a lot)
malañ - a cheek
malk-, mälk - to milk (IE *melg-, *melk- - to milk) ;”mlyako”/”mleko” (a
milk)
malto - for the first time (IE *mal-/*mel- - a top)
malyw, mely - to press (IE *mel- - to grind) ;”melya”/”mlivo”
(grind, mill, mince, digest,also: chatter, jaw/; a grist)
mañ, meñe - a month (IE *men-es- - moon, a month)
mänt - how
mäs's'unt - brains (IE *mazgh- - brains) ; see ‘misal”/”mozak” (a thought, a
brain)
men'ki - less (IE *manw- - small, little) ;””maninku” a dialect form of
“malko” (small, little, less)
misa - meat, flesh (IE *méms- - meat) ;”meso” (a meat)
mit - honey (IE *medhu- - honey) ; see “med” (honey)
nás - us (IE *nosmes - we) ;”nas” (us) ; (we is “nie”)
ñkat, ñakte - a god (IE *nekt- - a deity)
ñom, nem - a name (IE *nem- - to call, to assign) ;”ime” (a name)
ñu - new (IE *newo- - new) ;”nov” (new)
ñú - nine (IE *newno - nine)
nut, naut - to die (IE *náw- - a corpse, to die)
okat, okt - eight (IE *októ - eight) ; “osem” (eight)
oki - like (conjunction) ;see medieval-bulgarian “yako(-je)” (being)
om-post-am. - after that (IE *po- - after) ;”posle” (after that, later…)
onkaläm - an elephant ;”slon” (an elephant)
orkäm - gloom, darkness (Greek orphnos - dark, dark brown) ;see proto-bulgarian
“uruki”(a harming evil); “mrak” (darkness)
orto - up (Latin orior - I rise)
pältsäkk - a thought ;see proto-bulgarian “bal” (a head, a major…)
pák, páke - a section (IE *bhag- - to share with smb)
pácar, pacer - a father (IE *pa'te'r - a father) ;”bashta”
(father)/”tate” (daddy)
päk- - to cook, ripen (IE *pekw-/ *pokw- 'to cook') ;”peka” (to bake,
roast, barbecue, toast, burn, scorch…); also: “iz-picham”, “na-picham”…
päl, píle - a wound (IE *bhal- - ill, sick)
pält, pilta - a leaf (IE *bhel- 'leaf')
pañä, piç, pis' - five (IE *penkwe - five) ;”pet”/see proto-bulgarian “vech(-em)”
(five(-th))
pant, pin.kce - fifth (see above) ; see above
papaks.u - something boiled (*pek-, *pekw- - to bake) “pecheno”/”opecheno”
(bake, toast… see above)
pärkär - long
pärwán, pärwáne - an eyebrow (IE *bhrú- - an eyebrow)
pärvat, pärwes.s.e - the oldest, a wizard (see parwe) ;”parvi” (a first/ at first time (“parvi” + “pat”))
parno, perne - shining (participle)
parwe - at first (?) (IE *pro-wo- - forward, first) ;”parvo” (at first)
pás, pásk - to graze (IE *pá-, *paH- - to secure, to graze) ;”pasha”/”pasa” (pasture, pasha/ graze, pasture)
pe, pai - a foot (IE *ped- - a foot) ;”pai” (share, portion)
pin'kam. - he writes (IE *peik'- - to draw signs) ;”pisha” (I write);
“pishe” (he writes)
plák - to be agree
plewe - a ship, a boat (IE *pleu- - to sail) “plava”/ “puva”
(float, sail/ swim)
pokem. - a hand (IE *bhághu- - a hand)
por., puwar - fire (IE *paur- - inanimate fire) ;”pozjar” (fire,
blaze)
porat, peret - an axe (IE *pelk'- - to chop) - could be borrowed from Iranian ;”bradva” (an axe), also “to-por” (an axe)
pracar, procer - a brother (IE *bhrátér- - a brother) ;”brat” (a brother)
prak, pärk - to ask (IE *prok'- - to ask)
pres'ciye - ooze ;”tresavishte” (a swamp, morass, ooze,
quagmire…)
put-k - to judge, to divide (Latin putare - to think, Russian pytat' - to
torture)
rake, reki - speech, a word (IE *rek- - to speak) ;”da
reka”/”rech”/”na-richam”/”iz-richam” (to say/ speech/ naming/ saying)
ratre, rtär, ratrem. - red (IE *reudh- - red, rust)
ri, riye - a city ;a bulgarian suffix for place from (someone is)
“-rii” for plural; also “-iya” for places, lands, countries and etc.
rit - to search
s.äk, skas - six (IE *sweks - six) ;”shest”, sounds “shes”; see
proto-bulgarian “sheht(-em)” (six(-th))
s'äk, s'ek, s'ak - ten (IE *dekmot - ten) ;”deset”, probably proto-bulgarian
form is “dekh-sekht”? (ten)
sále, sályi - salt (IE *sal- - grey, dirty; salt) ;”sol” (salt)
sälk- - to pull out (IE *selk- - to drag, a furrow) ;”vlacha” (to drag)
salu, sol - whole (IE *salw- - whole, healthy) ;”cyal /tsyal” (a
whole)
s.älyp, s.alype - fat, oil (IE *selp- - fat)
s.amáne - a monk ;”shaman” (a priest but not a Christian one);
see Sanskrit “samana”, hittitian “kimmant” (north, winter) as a place of gods
s'äm, s'ana - a wife (IE *gwen- - a wife, a woman) ;”zjena” (a woman)
s'ánmaya - he was proclaimed
s.ar, s.er - a sister (IE *swesór- - a sister) ;”sestra” (a sister)
särk, sark - an illness ;”zjar”, “treska” (heat, fever)
sas, se, s.eme - one (IE *sem- - one, the only, alone) ;”sam” (alone)
s'cirye - starry
se, soyä - a son (IE *sú- - to be born) ;”sin” (a son)
se (masc.), sá (fem.), te (neut.) - this (IE *so, *sá, *tod - this) ;”toi”/”tya”/”to” (he, she, it)
s'is'kiss - a lion (acc.sg.)
skente - they are (IE *es- - to be) ;”(te) sa” ((they) are)
smimám. - smiling (participle) (IE *smey- - to laugh) ;”smeya se”/”smyah” (I
laugh, laugh)
soma-, somo- - the same, similar (IE *smoo- - the same, some)
s.päm, s.päne - a dream (IE *swep- - to sleep, *swep-no- - a dream) ;”spya”/”spane” (I sleep, sleeping)
s.pät, sukt - seven (IE *septom - seven) ;”sedem”, see proto-bulgarian “sept(-em)”
(seven(-th))
spin- - a hook, a peg (IE *spey- - a peg)
s.tám, stám - a tree (IE *stá- - to stand) ;”stavam”/ “stoya” (I stand up, I
stay/stand)
s.top, s.tow - a stick (IE *stúp- - a branch, a stump) “sopa”
su (masc.), sá (fem.), tu (neut.) - that (see se) ;”toi”/”tya”/”to” (he,
she, it) see above
súwa - to eat (Slavic *z'vati - to chew, Latvian z'aunas - gills, Old High
German kiuwen - to chew, Armenian kiv - arboreal resin, Persian javiden - to
chew) ;”supa” (soup)
suwam. - it is raining (IE *seu-, *su- - to rain, to flow)
swase, swese - rain (see above) ;”teche” (it’s floating)
täm - this (IE *to- - demonstrative pronoun) ;”tam” (there); “tyam”
dialect form (of/by them)
tän'k-, tan'k- - to interfere (IE *tnog- - heavy, hard)
tápärk - now (Russian teper' - now?)
tek - to touch
tetriwu - he pounds (IE *ter- - to rub);”triya”/”iz-trivam”/
“na-trivam”… (to rub/ to pound)
tkam, kem - ground (IE *dhghom- - ground) ; see “kamak” (a stone)
tmäk - that is why ;dialect form “demek” (that is to say, namely)
tmäs' - then ; see
dialect form “togas” (then)
träm-, tärm-, treme (pl.) - to shiver, a shiver (IE *trem- - to shake) ;”treperya”/ “tresa se” (I shiver/ I shake)
tri, traiy - three (IE *treyes, *trí - three) ; “tri” (three)
trit, trite - thrice (see above) ;”treti” (third)
tsar@ - a hand (IE *g'hesro- - a hand)
tsär - rough, shaggy (IE *khar- - sharp) ;”ostar” (sharp)
tsatsápau - warmed (participle) (IE *tep- - warm) ;”za-toplen”
tsik - to generate
tsirauñe - power, strength
tsras'i - strong ;”zdrav” (strong, healthy)
tsu- - to link, to bind (IE *dhów- - to bind)
tu - thou (IE *tú - thou) ;”ti” (you, thou)
tumane, tumám. - ten thousand
tunk - love ;”cunka/tsunka” a dialect form of “tseluvka” (a
kiss)
wac - a quarrel, struggle (IE *wod- - to speak, to shout)
waiwalau - dizziness (IE *wel- - to turn, to twist) ;”iz-vivam”/
“na-vivam”… (to twist/ wind up, roll up, screw up; also: put up, key up…)
wak, wek - voice (IE *wekw-/ *wokw- 'voice') ;”vika” (he shouts/ he
speaks)
wäl, walo - a prince (IE *wal- - strong, powerful) ; see “bal” above
wäl - to die ; see “raz-valya”/ ‘po-valya” (spoil, ruin,
disorder, damage, taint, rot…/ overthrow, knock down, lay out, fell…)
walke - long ;”dalag” (lond, tall)
wälts, yaltse - a thousand ;”hilyada” (a thousand)
want, yente - to fly, to breathe
wáp - to weave
wär - water (IE *war- - water, wet) ;”voda” (a water)
warto, wärto - a garden, a grove (IE *wer- - to defend, to close) ;”gradina” (a garden)
wäs - gold
wätk-, watk- - to order (see wac)
wes - we (IE *wei- - we, me and you) ; see above “nas”(us)/”vas” means:
(to) you
weskemane - speaking (participle)
wramm - a thing
wrauña - a crow ;”vrana” (a crow)
wu (masc.), we (fem.) - we two (see wes)
wu, wi - two (IE *duwo, *dwo - two) ;”dve”/ “dva”; see proto-bulgarian
“tut(-om)” (two/second)
yam, ya, yám - to do (Hittite aia- - to do) ;see dialect form
“ya-“ (if) for action
yok - to drink ; see dialect form “locha” (lap, swill, guzzle)
yokani - thirsting (participle)
ysar, ysár - blood (IE *esór- - blood)
ysäs. (3rd sg. pres.), yayásau (participle) - to boil (IE *yes- - to boil)
ytár (f) - a path, a way (see i-)
yuk, yakwe - a horse (IE *ekwo- - a horse) ; see “yuzda” (a rein); see proto-bulgarian
“teku” (a horse)
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 13:43
have a nice learning, guys!
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 14:15
Can You find somewhere in this dictionary your favorite "turco-slavic" bulgarian's origin? You must know, I am not very well grounded to all our dialects. And also this is just a part of tocharian words, and as you also probably know there was tocharian A and tocharian B languages. And also, almost 1500 years was passed by since this time. And also there was outher groups in our ethnogenesis too. And also there is not a grammar here, just a lexical fond. And also we have no saved the whole of proto-bulgarian language, just fragments - about 200 -300 words. We just suppose the most of our words, which are not slavic, turcik or thracian, are probably eastern-iranian. Can You find something more closer than tocharian to our language? Something more reasonable? Try! I wish You success! Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 15:36
Don't worry, the Bulgars being Turkic doesn't make modern day Bulgarians Turkic.
There is nothing left from the Bulgars in Bulgaria except their identity, their language, religion, socio-cultural factors have not survived.
Bulgar was a branch of "Oghur" Turkic, the Volga Bulgars and Khazars spoke this language, todays Tatars of Tatarstan federal region of Russia and Chuvash have some descendancy from the Bulgars. Chuvash is the closest language to old Bulgar and is classified as being Oghur while Tatar today is Kipchak.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 15:37
Kuber(a), Kardam(a), Avitohol, Sinion, Hinialon, Drago/Drogon, Sandilk, Zabergan, Grod/Gordius, Kubrat/Huvrat, Aspar "rugh"/ Espor "rig"/ Espere "rih" ("rugh/rig/rih" according to the assyrian "rih"="shur"="king"; and also to the latin,celtic and germanic "rex/rix/reges/riges/regal/royal" with the same meaning. Turkish??? Slavish??? Most unlikely.), Tervel, Tvirem, Kormisosh, Vineh, Telets, Sabin/ Sabinian, Telerig, Kroum, Mortagon, Malamir/Balamir, Persian, Zvinica, Rasate... also some ordinary people's names: Vidol, Micho/Mitso, Gocho/Gogo, Tano/Tanyu, Zapryan, Pando, Penko/Pencho, Todor/Tudor, Yavor, Dacho/Dako/Detcho, Nako/Nacho, Stoiyan/ Stoine/ Stanko/Tsanko, Tseko, Tinko, Manol, Momchil/ Manush/ Genko/ Ganko/ Gancho... and many others. Where are here Your favorite "turko-slavish" names? Funny. You can find some of these names in the ancient Persian Empire, Bactria, India, even in Shummer and Akkad, You can find this names as thracian or scytho-sarmatian names, but not as slavish or turcik names. Why? How can we lost some identity which we never have? And here is some bloodship words: father/ daddy - bashta/ tate ; mother/ mummy - maika/ mama ; brother - brat ; older brother - bate ; sister - setra ; older sister - kaka (in slavic languages it means "shit") ; uncle/brother of father - chicho ; oncle/brother of mother - vuicho (this is a slavish probably, but they have not "chicho") ; aunt/sister of father or mother - lelya ; aunt/ wife of "chicho" - chinka ; brother of wife - shurei ; brother of husband - dever ; grandfather - dyado (in slavish languages grandfather is "dedushka", but "dedo" means "uncle") ; grandmother - baba (in turcik languages it means "father"); wife of the husband's brother - etarva ; sister of the husband - zalva/ kalina ; husband of the father's sister - kaleko ; son of the father's or mother's brother/ sister - bratovched (it means "chedo" - a child/kid of the brat - brother, comprehending of father or mother) and many many others. Even I don't know it at whole. There's no turkish or altaic correspondences, parities and counterparts. Not much slavish too. There's not from where to come. Guys, You've got to realize at last, that the bulgarian question is one of the most complicated problems in the historiography and ethnology, before to talk so surely. Never be more sure than somebody, who knows his origin well. If You don't know somethink, just ask. And the least but not last - too many bulgarians don't know their roots and write and talk just the usual bullshits. Don't trust to the people which was never reed nothing but their stupid and political ordering textbooks (and even this not very careful). Never trust to the people, who's political exaltation get the upper hand over their simple knowledge. All of You - be healthy and happy! Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 15:58
Nonsense. In fact some of the name you posted are Slavic: Tudor, Soian, Yavor, Grod, Zapryan, Penko etc. all these are Slavic names, why do you have to go to India and Shumer?
In Russian there are: brat, matka, sestra, shurin, dever, deda (grandfather) etc. Don't make this ridiculous conclusions by attributing Slavic word to Ancient Shumer etc.
May be you should look for the origins of Bulgarians in the outer space perhaps they are even more Ancient than Shumer
Be healthy!
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 16:15
If You have no arguments except to repeate again and again "bulgars was a turcik tribe", You better stop. The chuvash people was our neighbours and friends, but they never been bulgarians. Today's bulgars in Tatarstan are these, who succeed to keep their own name (in wrong fonetic version), but lost their language, not us. Between 10th and 13th century A.D. they was so strongly turkisied, because of a lot of kipchak and oghuz settlements, so they became a minority in their own country. They wrote their own about this events in "Jagfar tarihi" if You ever read this amazing medieval book. So, in some point of view, they are bulgarians (half geneticly, but not linguistically) and turks meanwhile. They wish too much to prove that proto-bulgarian language was a turcik one, so they can not realize they disprove this version in their own books. By the way Ib'n Fadlan wrotes who they are, before the turcik settlements. So, learn more and then talk. Yes, the khazars spoke a similar language, but the ordinary people, not the turkish aristokracy in the Kaganat. because the ordinary people in the Kaganat was from sarmato-caucasian origin. There's a lot of studies about the genetic origin of the khazarians. This origin appears to the caucasian kassogi mixed with sarmatians. the turcik was just a ruling class. Moreover that the most of population in the Kaganat was native bulgarians. Learn more and stop to repeat nonsenses. By the way, I have nothing against the turks. I have friends turks and they are very nice people. But it is not a reason to change the historical and ethnographical facts. Be healthy! Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan P.S. Why nobody of you, guys, not dare to sign with his own name??? Are you afraid of something/ somebody? If You have a knowledge to prove your vision, do it as a man. Not behind a nick-names.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 16:36
What are you arguments?
Saying that some Slavic words are not Slavic but Sumerian etc. you want to prove that Bulgarians were not Turkic?
Now you started to cite Jagfar tarihi, which is a forgery not taken seriously by any respected historian; but you are even not familiar enough with this fake "source" which contrary to your assertion calls proto Bulgars Turkic.
IMO you would have more credibility by citing Lord of the Rings rather than Jagfar tarihi and similar stuff.
Remain healthy and succesful !
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 16:52
Sarmat 12, please, don't radiculate me! I just wrote some of our terms for bloodship. As I wrote THERE IS NOT MUCH SLAVIC TERMS LIKE THIS. I did't said there's not at whole. But You've got to admit that the most of this terms are not slavic and not turcik. Am I right or not? So, where do they came from? About Shumer, it's not very difficult for the most of nations if they investigate carefully their origin to goes back to Shumer. It is not so difficult as it seams to you. By the way, if You need to go earlier than Shumer - please, for example the most of european neolitic cultures are earlier than shumerian. But it is very unsure to recognize some ethnos in their face, because there is no written documents. I see here some pan-slavic and pan-turanic mania, to fabricate slavish and turcik tribes, even there is not that kind of tribes. So, may be Irish and Bavarian are turcik too??? Because, not me, but they wrote in their ancient and early medieval chronicles about the people called "Fir (the tribe) Bolg" and "Balger", which was migrated from the Middle East at the time of the persian king Kirus the Great, and crossing the continent goes, one part - to bavaria, and another to southern Galia, Belgica and the isle of Ireland. Is this funny? Pleace, be serious! If You don't wanna learn something don't pull another people. This is infantile. Wish You well! Balkh-Aryan
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 17:34
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Nonsense. In fact some of the name you posted are Slavic: Tudor, Soian, Yavor, Grod, Zapryan, Penko etc. all these are Slavic names, why do you have to go to India and Shumer?
In Russian there are: brat, matka, sestra, shurin, dever, deda (grandfather) etc. Don't make this ridiculous conclusions by attributing Slavic word to Ancient Shumer etc.
May be you should look for the origins of Bulgarians in the outer space perhaps they are even more Ancient than Shumer
Be healthy!
Of course, you have some. As an indoeuropean nation you should have some of them. But all the similarities between us are in result exactly of these origin. But, don't tell me, please this are slavic words, because this words are in use also in Pamir and Caucas by people which never been slavic. And this terms are in use from the deep antiquity., when the slavic group of the indoeuropean race wasn't formed yet. You may say, "Thank You" for example, about we give you our cultural heritage, as we told you "Thank You" about the liberation in 1878. (Never mind of the political ignorants in our and your country, which was in conflict.) But I know very well You will never do it. Why? Why You need to produce us turks (and because there is no kind of turkish origin in today's bulgarian people, this is a very good explaination to steal our culture, which you know very well to who's people belongs.) or slavs, if it is easy visible we are not any kind of this? I understand, is is very uncomfortable for the Great Russians to explain how they became a civilized people because of the acceptation of christianity from (today's) small Bulgaria. You should be the first and the best, and You need to reject any information which is possible to deny this version. I am really sorry about our dissolved connections, but if you want to have friends, you must respect them, never mind how large is their country today.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 18:33
Balkh-Aryan
There's no turkish or altaic correspondences, parities and counterparts.
Modern day Bulgarian is not a Turkic language, why would it have any Turkic or Altaic grammar...
Balkh-Aryan
Not much slavish too.
Are you joking? you cannot be serious, for somebody claiming to have studied Bulgarians for how ever many year you have to state Bulgarian has not much to do with Slavic is preposterous.
Bulgarian (Български)
Bulgarian is a Southern Slavic language with about 12 million speakers mainly in Bulgaria, but also in Ukraine, Macedonia, Serbia, Turkey, Greece, Romania, Canada, USA, Australia, Germany and Spain. Bulgarian is mutually intelligible with Macedonian, and fairly closely related to Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Slovenian.
Bulgarian is a Slavic language, not Iranic, Akkadian, Sumerian or Turkic.
Balkh-Aryan
There's not from where to come. Guys, You've got to realize at last, that the bulgarian question is one of the most complicated problems in the historiography and ethnology, before to talk so surely.
Do you actually believe this?
Balkh-Aryan
If You have no arguments except to repeate again and again "bulgars was a turcik tribe", You better stop
Then would you care to proove otherwise.
Balkh-Aryan
The chuvash people was our neighbours and friends, but they never been bulgarians. Today's bulgars in Tatarstan are these, who succeed to keep their own name (in wrong fonetic version), but lost their language, not us.
Our neighbours and friends?
So your claiming modern day Bulgarians are Bulgars?
Then you claim Tatars lost their language...has it not occured to you that modern day Bulgarians are not speaking Bulgar.
Balkh-Aryan
Between 10th and 13th century A.D. they was so strongly turkisied, because of a lot of kipchak and oghuz settlements, so they became a minority in their own country.
Are you trying to re-write history.
The Volga Bulgar Empire was Turkic way before the 10-13th century A.D and the period your referring to was when the region was over-run by the Mongols.
Balkh-Aryan
They wrote their own about this events in "Jagfar tarihi" if You ever read this amazing medieval book. So, in some point of view, they are bulgarians (half geneticly, but not linguistically) and turks meanwhile.
Bulgarians of Bulgaria are not Bulgars you don't speak the Bulgar language, have no Bulgar heritage or socio-cultural factors.
Please explain what is left of the Bulgars in Bulgaria other than the identity Bulgar-ian.
Balkh-Aryan
I see here some pan-slavic and pan-turanic mania
I'm just seeing paranoia.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 18:35
I realize, as a moderator You are able to restrict my access to this forum and I apologize about my expression, because I am not here to hurt anybody, but You really made me angry, men. If You decide to do it You will have one knowledgeable man less in the forum, just because I have a different point of view. But if You decide to give me answers, please make it seriously with no radiculation. If You don't accept "Jagfar Tarihi" as a historical source (I agree there is problems with this), You should reject all the sources which are late copies, but not the original. I was use "Jagfar Tarihi" just as a contra argument to the Volga-Bularia teory of the turcik origin of proto-bulgarians, because it is their own book (or creture of F. Nurutdinov, which is most unlikely). I know the book very well. I have it. And I know that in the book is written that bulgars are turks. But it is later. In the beginning, in the "gazi Baraj tarihi", when is quoted "Kadi Kitabi" of seid Jakub and "Hazar tarihi" of Abdullah Ib'n Michail Bashtu is written about the roots and origin of the bulgarian people and in the text these roots according to the cimmerians and massagetae. Isn't it so? And just a lot of time after that comes the huns. Isn't it so? Well who of us don't know well "jagfar Tarihi" (never mind is it a real source or not) me or You? And I have also a lot of sources that You maybe never hear about. So, when You dispute with me,please, be a little bit more accurate and don't ridiculate me. I was watching with a great interest your dispute with barbar. The talking was in high professional level. If You can keep these level now I will be grateful to You. If I don't know something I am not shame to ask about it. If You don't know something, You can ask too, and it will not undermine your authority, I assure You. Because there's no human been who knows everything. That's all. Be healthy! Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 18:46
Ok, sorry Balkh-Aryan, I might be a little tired of disputing this similar topic again and again. I won't ridicule you any more.
Just wanted to add about Jagfar Tarihi. It's another extreme in this context "Pan-Turkic" extreme. They guys simply meant that cimmerican and massagetaes were in fact Turks. Hope you understand what I mean.
Thank you
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 20:27
uuuuuuuuuuf! Bulldog, I am so tired to explain one and the same things again and again. O.K the situation at whole is this: I the lexical fond: 1. about 50 % of the words in modern (literary) bulgarian language have slavic parities or counterparts 2. the rest about 50 % have no parities or counterparts with the slavic languages 3. and no parities or counterparts with the altaic languages, not only with the turcik 4. some of these words (in the literary language) have great similarities with the thracian language or/and the scyto-sarmatian and tocharian language (the literari and mostly the dialects); (the slavic languages also have this ralations or some of them);(in other point of view the altaic language also have some scitho-sarmatian influence ) 5. in the modern bulgarian language there is some words (may be about 100) with osmano-turkish, but not old turcik origin, which are in use predominantly in jargons 6. the old altaic influence in our lexical fond is presented of about 20 words which have predominantly origin by the time of the Great Khaganat and kiptchak's origin too 7. if these words was a native proto-bulgarian, from where is comming these about 50 % which are not slavic, altaic or thracian kind, but have there high relativities with the east-iranian languages? II the grammar: 1. of cource, if today's bulgarian language is a slavic one, it should not have an altaic grammar, but it have a completely different grammar than the slavic languages and this grammar is not altaic. So where does it come from? 2. grammatically our language (especially the literary one) have much relativities to the ancient thracian (as in lexical fond), but this is a little bit strange, because the thracians was a substrat, conquered (?) by the bulgarian superstrat. 3. If the superstrat was assimilated by the substrat, why the superstrat (east iranian bulgarians), still exist in a very high persentage? Why their language is not an official one? 6. It is absolutely clear that this today's literary language is unnatural in contrast with the dialects (not at whole), so how the thracians rise from the death? How their language became an official if there is no thracians, but the iranian bulgarians exist very obviously? 4. the dialects (which suppose to be the real living language) shows much more relativities to the scitho-sarmatian, and especially to the tocharian language. So how they became dialects, but not an official language? III the anthropology: 1. the ancient and modern bulgarians shows the one and the same anthropological look. These look is a tippical mezocephalic and a little bit dolihocephalic. 2. the thracians shows the same look. 3. the tocharians also. 4. the slavic population is a mostly dolihocephallic air 5. the altaic is mostly brahycephallic air (except the dinlins, for whom is not proven they was altaic population, linguistically of course, geographicaly they was) IV DNA Researches: 1. the modern bulgarian population shows about 38 % relativies with the local ethnical groups, as greeks, romanians and albanians, which shows the most of bulgarians are probably autochtonic population. 2. the ancestors of the tocharians in the modern uygurs (speeking an altaic language), tajiks and etc. as also the population in the altai region (where was the dinlins) shows extremely percentage of R1a (which is a tippical for the eastern/"satem" group of indo-aryan nations) in contrast of modern turks from republic of Turkey ...and many more questions. I don't think that is necessary to have a controversy here, we just disputing. Isn't it? But try to look a little bit more seriously for that what I am telling You. It is not a result of my own imagination, but of gathered information from a lot of sources of a different kind. I understand many people will dislike this information, but the science is not what we like, but what is truth. Isn't it? I also can't find answers to some questions, and that's why I write here. You can check this information before to ridiculate me. But, of course it is much more easier to leg and jeer at somebody. Do You really sure You know everything? Because I know very well all this sites and the official version you show me to prove me I am wrong. But yet, Why don't You check the possibility if I am not wrong? So, what will happened after all, if you will find that I am wright? O.K., may be I am a paranoid man. Is it more important than the truth? Just check. Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 20:56
Wiki says that Bulgarian lexis is overwhelmongly Slavic with only very slight influence of Bulgar language:
Around three-quarters of the word-stock in the standard, academy dictionaries of Bulgarian, consists of native lexical items. Some 2,000 of these items are directly inherited from proto-Slavonic through Old and Middle Bulgarian. These include much of the most common and basic vocabulary of the language, for example body parts ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language - bulg. : ръка “hand”) or cardinal numbers ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language - bulg. : две “two”). The number of words derived from the direct reflexes of proto-Slavonic is more than 20 times greater, accounting for more than 40,000 entries (for example, ръчен “manual”; двуместен “double-place”).
The old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars - Bulgar language has otherwise left but only slight traces in Modern Bulgarian. Apart from a small corpus of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_names - proper names (for example, Борис “Boris”; Крум “Krum”) and military and administrative titles from the time of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire - First Bulgarian Empire , only a handful of other Bulgar words has survived in Modern Bulgarian. Words which are considered to be almost certainly of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar - Bulgar origin are, for example: бъбрек “kidney”, бисер “pearl”, кумир “idol”, чертог “castle”. Some of these words even spread to other Slavic languages through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic - Old Church Slavonic .
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bulgarian_lexis&action=edit§ion=2 - edit ]Patterns of borrowing
As of the beginning of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960s - 1960s , loanwords stood for some 25% of the word-stock of the standard dictionary of Bulgarian. The two most important sources of borrowing were http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin - Latin and Medieval and Modern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language - Greek , each accounting for around one-fourth of all borrowings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language - French and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language - Turkish (along with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_language - Arab and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language - Persian ) had a weight each of around 15%, whereas loanwords from Russian accounted for 10% of the borrowings. Lesser but still significant influence was exerted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language - Italian , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language - German and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language - English .
Peculiarities of Bulgarian grammar are simply expalained by the infulences of other Balkan languages and the existence of Balkan language union:
Bulgarian grammar is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar - grammar of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language - Bulgarian language . The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language - Bulgarian language is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_language - South Slavic language that also is one of the members of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund - Balkan sprachbund . As such, it shares several grammatical innovations with the other southwest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan - Balkan languages that set it apart from other Slavic languages. These include a sharp reduction in noun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension - inflections ; most Bulgarian nouns and adjectives are inflected for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_%28grammar%29 - number and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender - gender , but have lost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_case - noun cases . Bulgarian also has a suffixed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definite_article - definite article , while most other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages - Slavic languages have no definite article at all. Bulgarian has also lost the verb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinitive - infinitive , while otherwise preserving most of the complexities of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic_language - Old Bulgarian verb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjugation - conjugation system, and has further developed the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic - proto-Slavic verb system to add verb forms to express nonwitnessed, retold, and doubtful ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis - irrealis) actions.
Bulgarian is a part of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_linguistic_union - Balkan linguistic union , which also includes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language - Greek , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language - Macedonian , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language - Romanian , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language - Albanian and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialect - Torlakian dialect of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language - Serbian language . Most of these languages share some of the above-mentioned characteristics.
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 20:58
Thank You, Sarmat12. I can understand You. I have had the same problems. "Jagfar Tarihi" was not a pan-turkistic source. They was tried to make it. From the other point of view, which is more important - the political result or the truth? You must know "Jagfar Tarihi" was written and rewritten and expanded again and again for a long time. So, it is unusable for the political aims, but it is valuable in an ethnographic and cultural aspect. That's why don't reject it at whole. There is a lot of information (I wrote yet), which is very uncomfortable for the pan-turkists, so it is a sure indicator this book is not just a false. And after all I think mister Farghat Nurutdinov (sorry, Farghat, I just reed some your book, which in my opinion is bla-bla, not well grounded with facts, only your myths and presumptions. As a bulgarian I have a claim to know better than you who am I actually. That what is sure is the bulgarians never been turks, but you may be are. It is your right.) is not so smart to create a book like this. If he really did it, he is genius and he is able to rewrite the Holy Koran or the Bible. Good luck!
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 22:09
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Wiki says that Bulgarian lexis is overwhelmongly Slavic with only very slight influence of Bulgar language:
Around three-quarters of the word-stock in the standard, academy dictionaries of Bulgarian, consists of native lexical items. Some 2,000 of these items are directly inherited from proto-Slavonic through Old and Middle Bulgarian. These include much of the most common and basic vocabulary of the language, for example body parts ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language - - bulg. : две “two”). The number of words derived from the direct reflexes of proto-Slavonic is more than 20 times greater, accounting for more than 40,000 entries (for example, ръчен “manual”; двуместен “double-place”).
The old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars - - proper names (for example, Борис “Boris”; Крум “Krum”) and military and administrative titles from the time of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire - - Bulgar origin are, for example: бъбрек “kidney”, бисер “pearl”, кумир “idol”, чертог “castle”. Some of these words even spread to other Slavic languages through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic -
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bulgarian_lexis&action=edit§ion=2 - - 1960s , loanwords stood for some 25% of the word-stock of the standard dictionary of Bulgarian. The two most important sources of borrowing were http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin - - Greek , each accounting for around one-fourth of all borrowings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language - - Turkish (along with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_language - - Persian ) had a weight each of around 15%, whereas loanwords from Russian accounted for 10% of the borrowings. Lesser but still significant influence was exerted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language - - German and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language - - grammar of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language - - Bulgarian language is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_language - - Balkan sprachbund . As such, it shares several grammatical innovations with the other southwest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan - - inflections ; most Bulgarian nouns and adjectives are inflected for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_%28grammar%29 - - gender , but have lost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_case - - definite article , while most other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages - - infinitive , while otherwise preserving most of the complexities of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic_language - - conjugation system, and has further developed the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic - - irrealis ) actions.
Bulgarian is a part of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_linguistic_union - - Greek , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language - - Romanian , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language - - Torlakian dialect of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language - 2."бисер" is probably altaic, but not a proto-bulgarian too 3. "кумир" has a very old origin which acording to the akkadian "gumirtu' with the same meaning 4. "чертог" is a bulgarian word, which have no a good relations to the altaic languages 5. "ръка" is a slavic word in bulgarian language, but do you know the word "кунка" which is a dialect tippical bulgarian word, with no acordings to the slavic or turcik languages outher examples: 1. usually the slavic people says "нога, ноги" in bulgarian language there's a form "крак", крака", which is not altaic and definetely not a slavic one 2. the bulgarian words "зид', "шар", "книга","кюпе"(др.бълг.),"чуванчия"(др.бълг.), "къща","кошара","сокачия"(др.бълг.),"хонсар"(др.бълг.),"саракт"(др.бълг.),"тортуна"(др.бълг.), "шегор"(др.бълг.),"вер"(др.бълг.),"имен"(др.бълг.),"теку"(др.бълг.),"така"(др.бълг.),"катър"(др.бълг.),"тох"(др.бълг.),"какай"(др.бълг.),"шиле","ас"(др.бълг.),"угар","кумир","Капище"(др.бълг.),"субиги"..according directly to Shumer and Akkad. O.K. let them alone (the shumerian and akkadian). They are tired yet of different relations with turks, georgians, basks and who else not. We have a lot of ralations with the celts, which I will not qoute here, even the dictionary is here in my hand. What about that kind of words like: "чучулига", "минзухар", "пафти", "гургулица", "синигер" and really many many other (find some book of prof. Petar Dobrev, published in the net, You will see much more than I can tell You now). The macedonian language is not a serbish, but bulgarian dialect. this questian is definated of you politicaly, but not linguisticaly. any linguist can tell you about that. the old church Slavonic was at first the old Church Bulgarian. So you can look for bulgarian words in your own language before to seek slavic words in the bulgarian language. the foreign words and influences in the bulgarian language are well known and easy to sence (I mean The greek, latin, turkish, french, german, english and etc.).That's why this a lot of words which are not slavic or turcik can't be explain fith this sort. the grammar is very coservative thing and it need thousends of years to change, because this is the model/a structure of thinking to any national or ethnical group. it doesn't work. The lexic is changing easy for a short time, but grammar needs much more time. It is funny to read a different foreigners writting about our language, but they never know it really, just use a manuals. This is the same if i give to you a wonderful atlas for human anatomy and You try to operate someone with its help. Isn't it funny?
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 22:51
I'd like to see some linguist (but well-known every bulgarian dialects) to stand here and to say "Guys, the bulgarian language is a slavic language." I don't believe that will ever happen if this man realy knows our language. You just have no idea how different are these language one to another, even they have some analogies and similarities. Yes we have a lot of slavic words. do You ever admit the possibility your own and the rest of the slavic languages to received the half of their lexical fond from the bulgarians? What do you know about us except the ordinary textbook information? Do you know we had our common state (under bulgarian rule) and live together between the end of 5th century and the middle of 6th century and again between 626 and 680 A.D. (the time 559 -626 was the time of the avars, which had no demographic, cultural, iconomic and etc. potential enough to survive longer.)? Do you know how many bulgarian books and priests comes to Russia? Do You ever here about akademic Lihachev, which is a russian and described a medieval Bulgaria as "The state of spirit"? All this theory about the turco-slavic bulgarians doesn't work. Yes we took a part in the Great Khaganat. Nobody ask us do we wont that or not. And it falls. Before to determinate the bulgarian history and origin, look in your own history for bulgarian contributions and influences and You will find they are not a small number. May be you should dislike this, but You will become a little bit more educated, about your own roots. Have a nice day! Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 23:07
Ancient Bulgar ethnicity topic starts to be as boring as ethnicity of Alexander. The truth is as usuall somewhere in between. Not only Bulgars had both features -- of upcoming Turkic tribes and rest of Sarmats but they were also mixed with Slavs in the north of Danube and all sorts of different Byzantine nations enslaved during raids in Byzantium.
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 00:05
Here is some link to Prof. Petar Dobrav works: http://www.salagram.net/VWHEurope.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/pb_lang/index.html http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20ot%20drugi%20avtori/Petar%20Dobrev%20-%20prabaalgars http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominalia_of_the_Bulgarian_khans http://www.answers.com/topic/bulgars http://www.hindunet.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=47349&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 http://panbulgar.16.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=3
I
post here some more links to works of our historian prof. Petar Dobrev.
I don't know are this materials good or bad, but as I know his works it
should be O.K. You can see What I mean, because My knowledge and the
point of view is a little bit different than his, but it doesn't
matter. You can find here what you don't want to believe by my words.
As you wish . Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 02:04
Well, friends, it is really funny but I am standing here alone with a lot of sources against two of the most popular and powerful theories about the origin of the proto-bulgarians in 20th century. And all the people in this forum wants to deny me. Isn't it funny they still can not do it? And I believe the most of You will agree step by step what I am talking about here. You throw at me a lot of your sources which are known to me from a long time, and I feel my self just as the spartian king Leonidus at the Thermopili pass. Because the knowledge is not locked in the textbooks, but it is a condition of mind. Why ask the Bishop if the pope is around...the source of knowledge that is the ancient books and chronics, because the contemporaries of the events supposed to be much more informed than today's professors about the past. I left with the imression that a lot of this "scientists" are not very educated and their diplomas was just a regrettable misunderstanding in their life. Unfortunately all of us was teach by them. So, should we trust them to the end of the way? Until we realize we was mislead? You decide. I did it before a lot of time. Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 09:42
The relations between the easter branch of Indo-aryans can be presented for example like this: 1.slavs ABCDEFGHIJ 2.dako-gets BCDEFGHIJK 3.thracians CDEFGHIJKL 4.cimmerians DEFGHIJKLM 5.tocharians EFGHIJKLMN 6.balkh-aryans FGHIJKLMNO 7 sarmatians GHIJKLMNOP 8 scithians HIJKLMNOPQ 9. parthians IJKLMNOPQL 10.medians JKLMNOPQLR 11.persians KLMNOPQLRS So, the genetic relations beetween the slavs and the proto-bulgarians is:"FGHIJ", which is 5 of 10, and it is not a small number. (Well I agree, the slavs have a higher relations with the thracians, than the bulgarians, but we have a higher relations with the cimmerians, than the slavs.) So it is more than the relations between the proto-bulgarians a the turcik tribes, which is for example 2-3 of 10. The scythians and sarmations heve a relations with proto-turks for example 4-5 of 10, and this is a really a high persentage, for people from two different language's families. be happy! Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 09:50
This example is not an absolute it is just an example. Because I choose 10 letters as easier, is received a result where is no relations between the slavs and the persians, which is not true. You can use this table with more letters, maybe 20 or more. Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 10:07
The Idea was to show You where the balkh-aryans was in the indo-aryan family. Here is another one shows the relation with the proto-turks. And don't forget it is just an example. 1.slavs ABCDEFGHIJ 2.dako-getians BCDEFGHIJK 3.thracians CDEFGHIJKL 4.cimmerians DEFGHIJKLM 5.tocharians EFGHIJKLMN 6.balkh-aryans FGHIJKLMNO 7.sarmatians GHIJKLMNOP 8.scythians HIJKLMNOPQ 9.dinlins IJKLMNOPQL 10.huns JKLMNOPQLR 11.proto-turks KLMNOPQLRS I have no claim this table is showing the truth absolutely, more over, the most of these questions are in discus still. I for my own view am not sure there is a very high relations between the dinlins, (for example) and the proto-turks, because of extremely big differences in anthropologycal aspect. Have a nice day! Todor Panayotov/Balkh-Aryan
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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 11:39
1. usually the slavic people says "нога, ноги" in bulgarian language there's a form "крак", крака", which is not altaic and definetely not a slavic one 2. the bulgarian words "зид', "шар", "книга","кюпе"(др.бълг.),"чуванчия"(др.бълг.), "къща","кошара","сокачия"(др.бълг.),"хонсар"(др.бълг.),"саракт"(др.бълг.),"тортуна"(др.бълг.), "шегор"(др.бълг.),"вер"(др.бълг.),"имен"(др.бълг.),"теку"(др.бълг.),"така"(др.бълг.),"катър"(др.бълг.),"тох"(др.бълг.),"какай"(др.бълг.),"шиле","ас"(др.бълг.),"угар","кумир","Капище"(др.бълг.),"субиги"..according directly to Shumer and Akkad.
I am not very knowledgeable in Bulgarian, but from the little I know this seems to be an exaggeration. "Zid" (wall) corresponds to a pan-IE root, existent in other Slavic languages, too. "Koshara" is also pan-Slavic. On other sites I've noticed other words claimed to be proto-Bulgar or whatever but which were present in several other Balkan languages. Here ( http://www.kroraina.com/b_lang/ - http://www.kroraina.com/b_lang/ ) Dobrev claims "vatra" to be a proto-Bulgar word, but I know for sure it exists in Romanian and Albanian too with similar meanings (fireplace, the center of the house or of the village), therefore it's more likely a pan-Balkanic word, probably from one of the ancient Balkanic languages. Dobrev amazingly suggests "pita" to be a proto-Bulgar word, a well-known pan-Balkanic term. Do you imagine the Bulgars riding the Balkans sharing the horseback with a hot oven baking pita
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 23:27
Две гаплогруппы (E3b1a2-V13 и J2b1-M102)
после нескольких последних исследований (Кручиани, 2007) гипотетически можно
считать, что в древности могли составлять единую племенную группу, или
несколько племен сконцентрированных в районе современной Албании и на
территории древних Иллирии и части Фракии. Их пиковые частоты именно там.
E3b1a2 в Алабани (Косово) имеет частоту около 32% (и с некторым понижением в
Македонии - 18%), а J2b1 в Албании - 17%. Области с пониженными частотами -
Македония, Болгария также связана с фракийскими племенами и подвергалась
многочисленным вторжениям, вытеснениям со стороны готов, аваров и гунов.
Процент J2b1 также достаточно высок в турецкой части Фракии. Можно
предположить, что J2b1 гипотетически является "прото-фракийской генетической
подписью", вто время как E3b1a2 можно назвать "илирский".
Известно также, что население Фракии по сути были смесью из иллирийских и
фракийских племен и составляли частью смесь более ранних ИЕ-племен с изрядной
примесью местных мирных автохтонных племенных групп. К этим группам, по-моему и
относились упомянутые выше гаплогруппы, которые внесли свой веский вклад в
генофонд вновь образованных племен. На их долю приходится не меньше половины.
(1) University Hospital “Alexandrovska”, 1 Georgy Sofiisky
Street, Sofia, 1431, Bulgaria (2) Central Laboratory of Clinical Immunology, University
Hospital “Alexandrovska”, 1 Georgy Sofiisky Street, Sofia, 1431, Bulgaria
Received: 15 November 2006 Accepted: 5 May 2007 Published
online: 2 June 2007
Abstract Recently Bulgarian Bone Marrow Donors Registry
(BBMDR) has been established and since August 2005 it has been a member of Bone
Marrow Donors Worldwide. Currently the number of healthy donors included in the
BBMDR is relatively low. All donors included in the BBMDR are typed for HLA-A,
-B, -DRB loci. Phylogenetic analysis based on HLA allele frequencies shows that
Bulgarians were characterized with closest genetic similarity to Macedonians,
Greeks, Romanians, Cretans and Sardinians in comparison to the other European
and Mediterranean populations. On the contrary the second largest ethnic
minority–the Roma were the closest to the other Roma populations and North Indians.
These differences were due to the predominance of alleles and haplotypes that
are specific for the Asian and the other Roma populations. These specific
genetic profiles in the Bulgarian ethnic minorities justify the need of an
adequate representation of minorities in BBMDR. Future directions for BBMDR
development are discussed, including an increase of the total number of donors
and these for ethnic minorities, as well the enhancement of the level of
resolution of the HLA typing for the donors in the registry. Keywords Bulgarian Bone Marrow Donor Registry - Bulgarians -
HLA alleles - HLA haplotypes - Roma
HLA polymorphism in Bulgarians defined by high-resolution typing methods in
comparison with other populations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Ivanova%20M%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Ivanova
M , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Rozemuller%20E%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Rozemuller
E , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Tyufekchiev%20N%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Tyufekchiev
N , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Michailova%20A%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Michailova
A , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Tilanus%20M%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Tilanus
M , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Naumova%20E%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Naumova
E .
Central Laboratory of Clinical
Immunology, Medical University, Sofia, Bulgaria.
In the present study we analyzed
for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by
high-resolution typing methods in the Bulgarian population. Comparisons with
other populations of common historical background were performed. Most HLA-A,
-B, -DRB alleles and haplotypes observed in the Bulgarian population are also
common in Europe. Alleles and haplotypes considered as Mediterranean are
relatively frequent in the Bulgarian population. Observation of Oriental
alleles confirms the contribution of Asians to the genetic diversity of
Bulgarians. The use of high-resolution typing methods allowed to identify
allele variants rare for Europeans that were correlated to specific population
groups. Phylogenetic and correspondence analyses showed that Bulgarians are
more closely related to Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians than to other
European populations and Middle Eastern people living near the Mediterranean.
The HLA-A,-B,-DRB1 allele and haplotype diversity defined by high-resolution
DNA methods confirm that the Bulgarian population is characterized by features
of southern European anthropological type with some influence of additional
ethnic groups. Implementation of high-resolution typing methods allows a
significantly wider spectrum of HLA variation to be detected, including rare
alleles and haplotypes, and further clarifies the origin of Bulgarians.
PMID: 12542743 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE]
Division of Clinical and Transplantation Immunology, Medical
University, Sofia, Bulgaria.
We describe for the first time the use of PCR based techniques to analyze the
MHC class II polymorphism of the Bulgarian population. The present study
provides the HLA-DRB, DQB1 allele frequencies in 116 Bulgarian individuals and
DQA1 alleles frequencies in 100 subjects. DNA from these individuals was typed
for DRB and DQB1 typed by the PCR-Allele Specific Amplification (PCR-ASA)
method and DQA1 by PCR followed by hybridization using Sequence Specific
Oligonucleotides (PCR-SSO). Allele and haplotype frequencies and linkage
disequilibria are computed by the standard methods used for the XIth
International Histocompatibility Workshop. The highest frequencies are 0.159,
0.109 and 0.085 for DRB1*1101, DRB1*1601 and DRB1*1301 respectively. Among the
eight DQA1 alleles detected, DQA1*0501 (0.344) is found to be much more
frequent than the two most frequent alleles DQA1*0102 (0.225) and DQA1*0101 (0.151).
Twelve DQB1 alleles are found and three of them, DQB1*0301 (0.280), DQB1*0502
(0.153) and DQB1*0201 (0.133) showed the highest frequencies. The haplotype
DRB1*1101-DQA1*0501-DQB1*0301 (0.079) predominate clearly, followed by
DRB1*1601-DQA1*0102-DDQB1*0502 (0.055) and DRB1*0101-DQA1*0101-DQB1*0501. These
results indicate that the Bulgarian population is characterized by features
representative of the European anthropological type with a substantial
contribution from the Southern Belt of Europe.The frequency of
the proposed Slavic Haplogroup R1a1 ranges to only 14.7% in
Bulgaria.
Bulgarians:
- East Mediterranean 60% (източносредиземноморски тип - траки)
- Neodanubian 20% (новодунавски тип - славяни*)
- Dinaric 10% (тип динарик - илири)
- Nordic 5% (нордически тип - скандинавци)
- Turanid 5% (туранид - тюрки)
Any comments?
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 23:48
And this one is about the Chuvash people, which is not very Turkish, and not Bulgarish at whole: file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Chuvash_HLA.pdf - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Chuvash_HLA.pdf
And when You realize how stupid and self-reliant You are, You can come to talk again. Until then, You may listen a little bit Bulgarian folk-music (which is may be also Slavish or Turkish), and feel what I meen. If You can... file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20100%20kaba%20gaidi.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20100%20kaba%20gaidi.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20bulgaria%20folklore%20from%20Dobrudja.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20bulgaria%20folklore%20from%20Dobrudja.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgaria%20folklore,%20ruchenitsa.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgaria%20folklore,%20ruchenitsa.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20folklore%20Dance%20from%20Shoppe%20region.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20folklore%20Dance%20from%20Shoppe%20region.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20folklore%20from%20Macedonia%20region.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20folklore%20from%20Macedonia%20region.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20folklore%20from%20Trakia.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20folklore%20from%20Trakia.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8F%20%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0-%20%D0%98%D0%B7%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BB%20%D0%B5%20%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BE%20%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8F%20%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0-%20%D0%98%D0%B7%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BB%20%D0%B5%20%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BE%20%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD_files/ file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20300%20Movie%20-%20The%20Death%20of%20Leonidas%20and%20Unique%20Bulgarian%20Song.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20300%20Movie%20-%20The%20Death%20of%20Leonidas%20and%20Unique%20Bulgarian%20Song.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%20%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%B3%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%B0%20-%20%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1%81%20%D0%BC%D0%B0%20%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%88%20%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%20%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%B3%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%B0%20-%20%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1%81%20%D0%BC%D0%B0%20%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%88%20%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE_files/ file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Verka%20Siderova-Lale%20li%20si,ziumbiul%20li%20si_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Verka%20Siderova-Lale%20li%20si,ziumbiul%20li%20si_files/ file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20St_%20Georges%20Day%20-%20%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D1%8C%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20St_%20George's%20Day%20-%20%D0%93%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D1%8C%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD_files/ file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Severnqshko%20horo_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Severnqshko%20horo_files/ file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Rofinka_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Rofinka_files/ file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Prituri%20Se%20Planinata_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Prituri%20Se%20Planinata_files/
And if You want to see how we looks like, so, please; file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20Youth.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20Youth.htm
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 00:16
And this is what we was...and still are: file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20BULGARIA%20A%20LAND%20OF%20ANCIENT%20CIVILIZATIONS%20tombs%20&%20treasure%201.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20BULGARIA%20A%20LAND%20OF%20ANCIENT%20CIVILIZATIONS%20tombs%20&%20treasure%201.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20BULGARIA%20-%20The%20ancient%20spirit%20of%20the%20Bulgarian%20land%202.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20BULGARIA%20-%20The%20ancient%20spirit%20of%20the%20Bulgarian%20land%202.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgaria%20gold%20treasure%20-%20Seeing%20is%20believing%203.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgaria%20gold%20treasure%20-%20Seeing%20is%20believing%203.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgaria%20has%20it%20all__.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgaria%20has%20it%20all__.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20-%20Who%20are%20we%20%20Where%20do%20we%20come%20from%20%20Part%207.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20-%20Who%20are%20we%20%20Where%20do%20we%20come%20from%20%20Part%207.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Elitsa%20&%20Stoyan%20-%20Water%20%28Bulgaria%20-%205th%20on%20Eurovision%202007%29_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Elitsa%20&%20Stoyan%20-%20Water%20(Bulgaria%20-%205th%20on%20Eurovision%202007)_files/ file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20this%20is%20bulgaria_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20this%20is%20bulgaria_files/ file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20DISCOVER%20BULGARIA.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20DISCOVER%20BULGARIA.htm
...And why we never been Turks, and should never be (sorry): file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20GENOCIDE%20-%20Bulgaria%20-%20500%20years%20under%20TURKS%20slavery.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20GENOCIDE%20-%20Bulgaria%20-%20500%20years%20under%20TURK'S%20slavery.htm file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Why%20Batak%21_files/ - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Why%20Batak!_files/
And our anthem (again to feel, what kind of people we are...If You can): file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20National%20Anthem%20%D0%A5%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BD%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%20%D0%91%D0%AA%D0%9B%D0%93%D0%90%D0%A0%D0%98%D0%AF.htm - file:///D:/My%20Work/Todor%20Panayotov/genetic%20datebase/Bulgaria_files/Bulgarian%20links/YouTube%20-%20Bulgarian%20National%20Anthem%20%D0%A5%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BD%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%20%D0%91%D0%AA%D0%9B%D0%93%D0%90%D0%A0%D0%98%D0%AF.htm
And good night to You all!
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 12:55
Sorry, the links I posted are not active. I don't know why. But You can see the report about the genetic structure about the bulgarian people on the previous page, and also any information in the net about the haplogroup J2b1 which is an eastern mediteranean extremely old haplogroup (according to the thracians and proto-thracian/pellasgian population, but not slavic or turkic. The high persentage of these group in the teritory of a modern Turkey is explained with frigian and lidian, and may be hittitian population in Anatolia. this haplogroup is not typical for the turkic nations.). In the genetic datebase of modern bulgarian nation the turanian genus is only about 5 %, and the slavic - just 14,7 %. Easterm mediteranean element is presented by more than 60 %. You can also search for bulgarian folk-music, if You wish. It preserved very archaic elements (as a combination of characteristic rhythms and harmonies), non tipiccal for the slavic or turkic folk music , except some which they accept by us, or some extremely ancient universal motives. I will post again more information, but unfortunately now I am too busy. See You again.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 12:56
Две гаплогруппы (E3b1a2-V13 и J2b1-M102)
после нескольких последних исследований (Кручиани, 2007) гипотетически можно
считать, что в древности могли составлять единую племенную группу, или
несколько племен сконцентрированных в районе современной Албании и на
территории древних Иллирии и части Фракии. Их пиковые частоты именно там.
E3b1a2 в Алабани (Косово) имеет частоту около 32% (и с некторым понижением в
Македонии - 18%), а J2b1 в Албании - 17%. Области с пониженными частотами -
Македония, Болгария также связана с фракийскими племенами и подвергалась
многочисленным вторжениям, вытеснениям со стороны готов, аваров и гунов.
Процент J2b1 также достаточно высок в турецкой части Фракии. Можно
предположить, что J2b1 гипотетически является "прото-фракийской генетической
подписью", вто время как E3b1a2 можно назвать "илирский".
Известно также, что население Фракии по сути были смесью из иллирийских и
фракийских племен и составляли частью смесь более ранних ИЕ-племен с изрядной
примесью местных мирных автохтонных племенных групп. К этим группам, по-моему и
относились упомянутые выше гаплогруппы, которые внесли свой веский вклад в
генофонд вновь образованных племен. На их долю приходится не меньше половины.
(1) University Hospital “Alexandrovska”, 1 Georgy Sofiisky
Street, Sofia, 1431, Bulgaria (2) Central Laboratory of Clinical Immunology, University
Hospital “Alexandrovska”, 1 Georgy Sofiisky Street, Sofia, 1431, Bulgaria
Received: 15 November 2006 Accepted: 5 May 2007 Published
online: 2 June 2007
Abstract Recently Bulgarian Bone Marrow Donors Registry
(BBMDR) has been established and since August 2005 it has been a member of Bone
Marrow Donors Worldwide. Currently the number of healthy donors included in the
BBMDR is relatively low. All donors included in the BBMDR are typed for HLA-A,
-B, -DRB loci. Phylogenetic analysis based on HLA allele frequencies shows that
Bulgarians were characterized with closest genetic similarity to Macedonians,
Greeks, Romanians, Cretans and Sardinians in comparison to the other European
and Mediterranean populations. On the contrary the second largest ethnic
minority–the Roma were the closest to the other Roma populations and North Indians.
These differences were due to the predominance of alleles and haplotypes that
are specific for the Asian and the other Roma populations. These specific
genetic profiles in the Bulgarian ethnic minorities justify the need of an
adequate representation of minorities in BBMDR. Future directions for BBMDR
development are discussed, including an increase of the total number of donors
and these for ethnic minorities, as well the enhancement of the level of
resolution of the HLA typing for the donors in the registry. Keywords Bulgarian Bone Marrow Donor Registry - Bulgarians -
HLA alleles - HLA haplotypes - Roma
HLA polymorphism in Bulgarians defined by high-resolution typing methods in
comparison with other populations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Ivanova%20M%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Ivanova
M , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Rozemuller%20E%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Rozemuller
E , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Tyufekchiev%20N%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Tyufekchiev
N , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Michailova%20A%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Michailova
A , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Tilanus%20M%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Tilanus
M , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=Naumova%20E%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus - Naumova
E .
Central Laboratory of Clinical
Immunology, Medical University, Sofia, Bulgaria.
In the present study we analyzed
for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by
high-resolution typing methods in the Bulgarian population. Comparisons with
other populations of common historical background were performed. Most HLA-A,
-B, -DRB alleles and haplotypes observed in the Bulgarian population are also
common in Europe. Alleles and haplotypes considered as Mediterranean are
relatively frequent in the Bulgarian population. Observation of Oriental
alleles confirms the contribution of Asians to the genetic diversity of
Bulgarians. The use of high-resolution typing methods allowed to identify
allele variants rare for Europeans that were correlated to specific population
groups. Phylogenetic and correspondence analyses showed that Bulgarians are
more closely related to Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians than to other
European populations and Middle Eastern people living near the Mediterranean.
The HLA-A,-B,-DRB1 allele and haplotype diversity defined by high-resolution
DNA methods confirm that the Bulgarian population is characterized by features
of southern European anthropological type with some influence of additional
ethnic groups. Implementation of high-resolution typing methods allows a
significantly wider spectrum of HLA variation to be detected, including rare
alleles and haplotypes, and further clarifies the origin of Bulgarians.
PMID: 12542743 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE]
Division of Clinical and Transplantation Immunology, Medical
University, Sofia, Bulgaria.
We describe for the first time the use of PCR based techniques to analyze the
MHC class II polymorphism of the Bulgarian population. The present study
provides the HLA-DRB, DQB1 allele frequencies in 116 Bulgarian individuals and
DQA1 alleles frequencies in 100 subjects. DNA from these individuals was typed
for DRB and DQB1 typed by the PCR-Allele Specific Amplification (PCR-ASA)
method and DQA1 by PCR followed by hybridization using Sequence Specific
Oligonucleotides (PCR-SSO). Allele and haplotype frequencies and linkage
disequilibria are computed by the standard methods used for the XIth
International Histocompatibility Workshop. The highest frequencies are 0.159,
0.109 and 0.085 for DRB1*1101, DRB1*1601 and DRB1*1301 respectively. Among the
eight DQA1 alleles detected, DQA1*0501 (0.344) is found to be much more
frequent than the two most frequent alleles DQA1*0102 (0.225) and DQA1*0101 (0.151).
Twelve DQB1 alleles are found and three of them, DQB1*0301 (0.280), DQB1*0502
(0.153) and DQB1*0201 (0.133) showed the highest frequencies. The haplotype
DRB1*1101-DQA1*0501-DQB1*0301 (0.079) predominate clearly, followed by
DRB1*1601-DQA1*0102-DDQB1*0502 (0.055) and DRB1*0101-DQA1*0101-DQB1*0501. These
results indicate that the Bulgarian population is characterized by features
representative of the European anthropological type with a substantial
contribution from the Southern Belt of Europe.The frequency of
the proposed Slavic Haplogroup R1a1 ranges to only 14.7% in
Bulgaria.
Bulgarians:
- East Mediterranean 60% (източносредиземноморски тип - траки)
- Neodanubian 20% (новодунавски тип - славяни*)
- Dinaric 10% (тип динарик - илири)
- Nordic 5% (нордически тип - скандинавци)
- Turanid 5% (туранид - тюрки)
Any comments?
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 12:58
See also the Dienekes files and the genetic informations from Wiky, if You respect Wiky so much.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 13:22
When the Genetic science speaks, even the Gods keep silence. And the next time when You wish to talk to me, better try to learn something, then to debate remark spiteful and self-reliant. Because You just think You have some knowledge about us, but this is illusion. If You have some interest I can tell You an information about the deep antiquity, which You can not find in any manuals, encyclopaedias and textbooks, and not even Wiky. This information can turn your views and knowledge about the ancient times at whole. But this is if You really want to learn something, not just to show in the net how educated (and stupid) You are. The choice is yours...
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 14:27
You seem to have constructed an alternate reality, it seems you've actually convinced yourself into believing you are correct while everybody else is wrong. You have the audacity to call well respected historians and scholors idiots while self-proclaiming yourself as the expert in this field.
All your posts fail to change;
- Bulgars were according to most historians Turkic and spoke a Turkic language
- Modern-day Bulgarians speak Slavic not Bulgar
- Modern-day Bulgarians have little in common with Bulgars other than the Bulgar identity
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 17:56
Sorry, the links I posted are not active
Because we do not have those files on our D: drive
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 18:06
Originally posted by Bulldog
- Modern-day Bulgarians have little in common with Bulgars other than the Bulgar identity
Modern day Turks have nothing with Ottoman Turks rather than Turk identity. For God's sake, man, are you going to stop repeating this crap?
------------- .
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 18:13
Your the one who tried to convince me modern day Bulgarians retained no heritage from the Bulgars. I call Bulgarians Bulgars and you have a problem, I say Bulgarians arn't Bulgars like you wanted and you still have a problem.
Why don't you explain the situation fully.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 18:47
1.Did the Turkish shamans/priests ever been called "Kolobar/Kolobri"? NO. In contrast bulgarian and thracian was called "kolobar". 2.Every pictures and finding skulls of the early medieval bulgarians shows us typical europoids. All known early turks was belonging to the mixed race with high percentage of mongoloid race. 3.The most discovered proto-bulgarian words have no turkish relation. This which are related, have their analogs also to ancient middle east and sarmatian languages. 4.The kingdom of Balhara/Bahlika/Balhika/Bactria is mentioned ever since "Vedas", "Mahabharata", "Puranas", "Upanishades", "Bagavadgita", "Panchatantra" and etc. In the scientiest's opinion the evidences in "Mahabharata" are between 13th and 8th century B.C. 5.Ib'n Fadlan calls the Volga-Bulgars "sakaliba", which meens "from the saka people". This was happened in the beginning of 10th century before the turkic settlements. He describe this people as tall people with a scrub beard, very non typical to the early turks. He described also the different turkic tribes in the Middle Asia and Bashkortostan. The cotrast is obvious. 6.The early Armenian sources also distinguished proto-bulgarians from the turkic tribes. 7.The finds of our material culture between 5th and 9th century are also different than the turkic, even we also was in the Great Khaganat and lived for a time in the steppes. 8.The official titles of our kings was "Kanasubigi" NOT "Khan". We also had title "Rih/ Rig/ Rugh", which is "Rex" and it is indo-aryan title. Have ypu ever "Rig"-s??? 9.The mediteranean phisical type was wide-spread in Thracian, Cimmerian and Tocharian, which is one of the most complicated problems in today's anthropologicall science. The presence of this type of 60% in today's Bulgarian people, as the very small percentage of the turanic and slavic types, make your contentions too difficult to prove. 10.if You don't know well the bulgarian language and all its dialect, please, don't tell me we speak a slavic language. In the same way I can tell You the turkish speak chinese, using your method. 11.We have (in the medieval proto-bulgarian language also) too big relations with the languages of thracians and tocharians. Of cource the slavic people also have not less relations with this ancient people, and this is normal. 12.Our grammar is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then the slavic and turkic grammars. In cotrast of lexic, which is possible to change relatively fast. For changing of the grammar is needed thousand of years. The bulgarian grammar is almost the same with the thracian one. After more than 1500 years. 13.There is no sure evidence that the proto-bulgarians was a turkic tribe. Just suppositions, based on the hypothesis that the proto-bulgarians was huns. This is no proved. 14. The origin of the huns is not proved. It is more Uralic, than Altaic. 15.this respected historians and scholars you quoted are obsolete, or unknowing well the bulgarian history and origin. There is new researches (not by bulgarian scientists), which confirm the non altaic origin of the proto-bulgarians. Some of this scientists are prominent altaists. 16.Yes I am an expert in this field, because I investigate this problem more than 20 years. Did some of your scholars (non-bulgarian) did it? Or You self? 17.To solve this problem is need to know not only Bulgarian history and language, but also the origin and history of many more nations. and also ethnography, anthropology, titular onomastic and many more sciences. Do You know all of this to came here to discuss with me about MY ORIGIN??? 18.Don't You realize the repeating of the mantra "The proto-bulgarians was turks, but today's bulgarians are slavs." can not change the truth? 19.You better search for the origin of the today's turks in Republic of Turkey, because the genetic studies shows, You are much more closer to us, then to the turkic nations in the Middle Asia (almost NO RELATIONS). There is a very good researches about the genetic origin of the population in Republic of Turkey, You just can see that. Who was Your grandfather (maybe some miserable child, taken from his parents for the "eni-cheri corps)? Who was Your grandmother (maybe some miserable girl taken to the "harem" to attend the biological needs to some "bei")? Where are You from? Are You a mongoloid? What kind of turk are You, if You are not mongoloid? Because the early turks was mongoloids, and I was seen hundreds of pictures, miniatures, gravures and etc. of turks, even to the middle of 15th century when you came in the Balkan peninsula, and all of them shows mongoloid type. JUST AFTER THAT YOU WAS MIXING WITH US AND ANOTHER BALKANIC NATIONS, AS ALSO PERSIANS AND KURDS, AND BECAME AN EUROPOID PEOPLE. 20. I never said all this scientists , which was wrote about the bulgarian origin are idiots. A lot of them was very knowledgeable and deserving people. Just the information they had then was not much. I suspect there's another idiots here.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 19:00
Dear Balkh_Arian, please cool down. Don't forget that is just a discussion, don't take it so seriously. We don't want to have personal attacks, subsequent closing of the thread and banning.
Many thanks
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 19:07
Sorry, Sarmat 12, it wasn't to You
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 19:09
I jut became angry, because the same pan-turkists, that was disscussing with You, are trying to explane me that actually, I am not bulgarian.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 19:18
Of course, you are Bulgarian. Let us be more respectful to each other at least not issue ad hominem judgements on this forum etc.
Many thanks
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 19:34
My point of view is this: I came here to exchange the historiographical information, and I said some things I know, because i supposed that can be interesting for somebody, provided that this information is not well known. Nobody is obliged to have an interest about the bulgarian story and origin. It is O.K. But when to all my posting is answered with one and the same mantra including meanings "You - the bulgarian was lost your identity, culture and language (You can check previous messages), I became angry, because there was not any arguments. Just a mantra which purpose is to make me humiliated. I don't think it is necessary to use this methods. If somebody don't like the bulgarian history he is not oblige to reed this tread. There is another themes also. But they are here only to irritate me and to discredit my version. And that can enrage anybody. Sorry again!
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 20:06
Originally posted by Bulldog
Your the one who tried to convince me modern day Bulgarians retained no heritage from the Bulgars. I call Bulgarians Bulgars and you have a problem, I say Bulgarians arn't Bulgars like you wanted and you still have a problem.
Why don't you explain the situation fully.
Yes, an Turks are not Ottomans then. You have the same problem.
------------- .
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 20:10
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bahlikas&action=edit§ion=2 - edit ]Bahlikas in Balkh or Bactria
According to the Bhuvanakosha section of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purana - Puranas , Bahlika was a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janapada - Janapada located in the Udichya ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttarapatha - Uttarapatha ) division http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-0 - [1] .
Some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymn - hymns of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atharvaveda - Atharvaveda invoke the fever to go to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara - Gandharis ,
Mahavrsas (a tribe of Punjab), Mujavants and, further off, to the
Bahlikas. Since Mujavant is the name of a hill (and a people) located
in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindukush - Hindukush / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir - Pamir http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-1 - [2] , therefore, the Bahlikas must lie beyond the Hindukush ranges.
Atharvaveda-Parisista juxtaposes the Vedic Bahlikas with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kambojas (i.e. Kamboja-Bahlika--) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-2 - [3] .
Besides Atharvaveda Parisista, several other ancient texts also associate the Bahlikas with the Kambojas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit - Sanskrit Acharya Kshmendra of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir - Kashmir has rendered the above text into his Ramayana Manjri as follows:
According to Dr S. K. Chaterjee, the Bahlika-Kamboja is a familiar group in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata - Mahabharata . Modern Balkh, the ancient Bahlika, though one of the most ancient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan - Aryan countries, has now become http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language - Turkish in speech……….” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-9 - [10] .
Besides Kambojas, Atharvaveda-Parisista also associates the Vedic Bahlikas with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakas - Sakas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavana - Yavanas and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusharas - Tusharas (Saka-Yavana-Tukhara-Vahlikaishcha) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-10 - [11] .
The fact that Puranic evidence locates the Bahlikas in Uttarapatha and further the close association of the Bahlikas with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kambojas as well as with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusharas - Tusharas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakas - Sakas and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavanas - Yavanas
in the Atharvaveda Parisista and in some other ancient sources suggests
that the Bahlikas were located as a close neighbor to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusharas - Tusharas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakas - Sakas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavana - Yavanas and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kambojas etc. Since the Kambojas were located in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badakshan - Badakshan and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir - Pamirs , the Tusharas on the north of Pamirs and the Sakas on the river http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaxartes - Jaxartes and beyond, the Bahlikas or Bahlams, as neighbors to these people should be placed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria - Bactria .
The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmanda_Purana - Brahmanda Purana attests that river Chaksu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxus - Oxus or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amu_Darya - Amu Darya ) flowed through the land of Bahlavas (Bahlikas).
The Mehrauli Iron Inscriptions of King Chandra (4th c AD) also make mention of Bahlikas as living on the west side of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_River - Indus River . After crossing the seven mouths of the Indus, King Chandra is stated to have defeated the Bahlikas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-11 - [12] .
These above several references attest that the Bahlikas were
originally located beyond the seven mouths of river Indus in the
country of Bactria and the land was watered by the river http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxus - Oxus . But later, a section of these people had moved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkh - Balkh to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_region - Punjab while still others appear to have moved to south-western India as neighbors to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saurashtra_language - Saurashtras and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhira - Abhiras of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovira - Sauviras .
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bahlikas&action=edit§ion=3 - edit ]Bahlikas in plains of Punjab
Salya, the king of Madra referred to in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata - Mahabharata has been called a Bahlika Pungava i.e foremost among the Bahlikas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-12 - [13] .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess - Princess Madri from the Madra Royal Family has also been referred to as Bahliki i.e princess of Bahlika http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan - clan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-13 - [14] .
In the digvijay expedition of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandava - Pandava http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjuna - Arjuna , there is a reference to a people called Bahlikas whom Arjuna had to fight with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-14 - [15] . They are stated to be located on the southern side of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir - Kashmir as neighbors to the Ursa and Sinhapura kingdoms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-15 - [16] .
A passage in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana - Ramayana attests that on the way from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya - Ayodhya to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kekaya - Kekaya ,
one had to pass through the country of Bahlikas, located somewhere in
Punjab. This shows that ancient Bahlikas had moved to and planted a
settlement in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_region - Punjab too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-16 - [17] . This is also verified from the epic Mahabharata.
This shows that there was yet another Bahlika country besides the one located in Bactria.
Dr P. E. Pargiter points out that there was also another Bahlika
settlement in the plains of Punjab alongside or south of Madradesa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-17 - [18] .
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bahlikas&action=edit§ion=4 - edit ]Bahlikas in Saurashtra
A third settlement of the Bahlikas is attssted in western India as neighbors to the Saurashtras. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana - Ramayana refers to (Saurashtrans.bahlikan.chandrachitranstathaivacha). There is also a similar expression in the http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Padama_Purana&action=edit&redlink=1 - Padama Purana i.e. (Surashtransa.bahlika.ssudrabhirastathaivacha). These ancient references attest that the Bahlikas were living as neighbors to the Saurashtras and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhira_Kingdom - Abhiras . According to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puranas - Puranas , a branch of this people ruled in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindhya - Vindhyas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-18 - [19] .
The Baraca of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus - Periplus is taken to be the same as the Bahlika of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit - Sanskrit texts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-19 - [20] . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purana - Puranas attest that a branch of the Bahlikas ruled near http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindhyas - Vindhyas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-20 - [21] .
According to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puranic - Puranic traditions, Dhrshta was one of the nine sons of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_%28Hinduism%29 - Manu . From him came a number of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan - clans called Dharshtakas who were reckoned as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kshatriya - Kshatriyas . According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Purana - Shiva Purana the Dharshtaka princes became rulers of Bahlika.
Satapatha Brahamana knows of a king named Bahlika Pratipeya whom it calls Kauravya (= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaurava - Kaurava ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-21 - [22] . It has been pointed out that this Kaurava king is identical with Bahlika Pratipeya of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata - Mahabharata http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-22 - [23] .
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata - Mahabharata evidence, the king of Bahlika was present at Syamantapanchaka at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra - Kurukshetra on the occasion of a solar eclipse.
The people of Balhika had presented to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yudhisthira - Yudhisthira as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribute - tribute ten thousand asses (donkeys), numerous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanket - blankets
of woollen texture, numerous skins of the Ranku deer, clothes
manufactured from jute and woven with the threads spun by insects. And
they also gave thousands of other clothes possessing the colour of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus - lotus , soft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep - sheep -skins by thousands, sharp and long swords and scimitars, and hatchets and fine-edged battle-axes, perfumes and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemstone - gems of various kinds (2.50)
The King of Bahlika presented to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yudhishtra - Yudhishtra a golden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot - chariot yoked with four white http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamboja - Kamboja studs at the time of Rajsuya ceremony (2.53.5).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karna - Karna had fought with and vanquished Bahlikas along with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kambojas of Rajpura, the Amvashthas, the Videhas, and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara - Gandharvas , the fierce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiratas - Kiratas of the fastness of Himavat, the Utpalas, the Mekalas, the Paundras, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga - Kalingas , the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andhras - Andhras , the Nishadas and the Trigartas (7.4.5-6).
King Bahlika had participated in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_War - Kurukshetra War . Mahabharata calls him a mighty (mahabali) king http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-23 - [24] . Along with his son Somadatta and grandson Bhurisravas, King Bahlika had participated in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata - Mahabharata war with one Askshauhini (division) army of Bahlika soldiers and had sided with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaurava - Kauravas against the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandava - Pandavas .
Bahlika and his grandson Bhurisrava were amongst the eleven
distinguished Generals or Senapatis of the Kaurava army appointed by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duryodhana - Duryodhana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-24 - [25] .
The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana - Ramayana seems to localize the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttarakurus - Uttarakurus in Bahlika country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-25 - [26] .
According to it, Ila, son of Parjapati Karddama, king of Bahli
(Bahlika) country, gave up Bahli in favor of his son Sasabindu and
founded the city of Pratisthana in Madhydesa. The princes of the Aila http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasty - dynasty (which is also the dynasty of Kurus) have been called Karddameya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-26 - [27] . The Karddameyas obtained their names from river Kardama in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia - Persia and therefore, their homeland is identified with Bahlika or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria - Bactria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-27 - [28] . This indicates that Bahlika or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria - Bactria was the original home of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru - Kuru clans.
Vatsyayana in his http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamasutra - Kamasutra
records a peculiar custom prevalent among the Bahlikas i.e several
young men marry a single woman in Bahlika country and in Strirajya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-28 - [29] . It is a well known fact that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandava - Pandavas (i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurus - Kurus ) were married to one women, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draupadi - Draupadi . This again implies that the Kurus were originally a people of Bahlika which was identical with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttarakuru - Uttarakuru (Dr M. R. Singh). Since Uttarakuru of the Aitareya Brahmana is said to lie beyond http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalaya - Himalaya , the Bahlika or Bactria is also beyond http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindukush - Hindukush (i.e. Himalayan range).
Besides the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurus - Kurus , the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madra - Madras were also originally a people living in/around Bahlika as is suggested by Vamsa Brahamana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-29 - [30] of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sama_Veda - Sama Veda which text refers to one Madragara Shaungayani as a teacher of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aupamanyava_Kamboja - Aupamanyava Kamboja . Dr Zimmer as well as authors of Vedic Index postulate a possible connection between the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran - Iranian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttaramadras - Uttaramadras and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kambojas . Both these people were close neighbors in the north-western part of ancient India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-30 - [31] .
According to Jean Przylusky, the Bahlika (Balkh) was an Iranian
settlement of the Madras who were known as Bahlika-Uttaramadras http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-31 - [32] .
In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aitareya_Brahmana - Aitareya Brahmana , the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttarakurus - Uttarakurus and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttaramadras - Uttaramadras are stated as living beyond http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalaya - Himalaya (paren himvantam) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-32 - [33] .
This suggests that in the remote antiquity (Vedic age), the (Iranian settlement of) the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madra - Madras was located in parts of Bahlika ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria - Bactria )--the western parts of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxus - Oxus country. These Madras were, in fact, the Uttaramadras of the Aitareya Brahmana (VIII/14) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-33 - [34] . However, in 4th c BC, this Bahlika/Bactria came under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavana - Yavana / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks - Greek political control and thus the land started to be referenced as Bahlika-Yavana in some of ancient Sanskrit texts.
Thus, the foregoing discussion suggests that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttarakurus - Uttarakurus , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttaramadras - Uttaramadras and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kambojas --
all were located beyond the Himalaya/Hindukush ranges. Probably, the
Uttarakurus were located in the northern parts of Bahlika, the
Uttaramadras were in the southern parts of it and the Kambojas (=Parama
Kambojas) were to the east of Bahlika, in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transoxiana - Transoxiana
region. The ancient Bahlika appears to have spanned a large expanse of
territory. The commentator of Harsha-Carita of Bana Bhatta also defines
the Kambojas as Kambojah-Bahlika-Desajah i.e the Kambojas
originated in/belonged to Bahlika. Thus, it seems likely that in the
remote antiquity, the ancestors of the Uttarakurus, Uttaramadras and
the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parama_Kambojas - Parama Kambojas were one people or otherwise were closely allied and had lived in/around Bahlika ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria - Bactria ).
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bahlikas&action=edit§ion=7 - edit ]Bahlikas in other references
Amarkosha makes references to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saffron - Saffron of Bahlika and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir - Kashmira countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-34 - [35] . Similar reference to Bahlika saffron has also been noticed in the fourth century AD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raghuvamsa - Raghuvamsa play of poet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalidasa - Kalidasa . Raghuvamas states that saffron got adhered to Raghu's horses which they had to shed off by rolling on the banks of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxus - Oxus before Raghu undertook to attack the forces of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huna - Hunas and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kambojas located on either side of Oxus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-35 - [36] .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brihat_Samhita - Brihat Samhita also has references on Bahlikas and mentions them together with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinas - Cinas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara - Gandharas , Sulikas, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradas - Paratas , Vaisyas etc.
Kavyamimamsa of Rajshekhar (10th c AD) lists the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bahlikas - Bahlikas
with the Sakas, Tusharas, Vokanas, Hunas, Kambojas, Pahlavas, Tangana,
Turukshas, etc. and states them as the tribes located in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttarapatha - Uttarapatha division. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-36 - [37]
The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist - Buddhist play Mudrarakshas of Visakhadutta as well as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain - Jaina works Parisishtaparvan refers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandragupta - Chandragupta 's alliance with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayan - Himalayan king Parvatka. The Himalyan alliance gave Chandragupta a composite army made up of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavanas - Yavanas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kambojas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakas - Sakas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiratas - Kiratas , Parasikas and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bahlikas - Bahlikas as stated in the Mudra-rakashas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-37 - [38] .
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bahlikas&action=edit§ion=8 - edit ]Bahlikas as mlechcha kings in Kali Yuga
The Bahlikas have been equated to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mlechcha - Mlechchas in the later Brahmanical literature. There is a distinct prophetic statement in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata - Mahabharata that the mlechcha kings of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakas - Sakas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavanas - Yavanas , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kambojas , Bahlikas etc will rule unrighteously in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_yuga - Kali yuga . (3.188.34-36). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-38 - [39]
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bahlikas&action=edit§ion=10 - edit ]Bahlika horses in Mahabharata
Like Kamboja, Bahlika region was famous for its horses. They were used by kings in wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna_in_the_Mah%C4%81bh%C4%81rata - Vasudeva Krishna gave unto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjuna - Arjuna hundreds of thousands of draft horses from the country of the Balhikas as his sister, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhadra - Subhadra ’s excellent dower. (1,223)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikhandi - Shikhandin 's son Kshatradeva used steeds from Balhika in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_War - Kurukshetra War (7,23).
Bahlika breed of horses were one among the type of horses employed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_War - Kurukshetra War . Many steeds of the Vanayu, the hilly, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamboja - Kamboja , and the Balhika
breeds, with tails and ears and eyes motionless and fixed, possessed of
great speed, well-trained, and ridden by accomplished warriors armed
with swords and lances, were seen (7,34).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagiratha - Bhagiratha gave away a hundred thousand horses of the Balhika breed, all white of complexion, adorned with garlands of gold. (13,103).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhritarashtra - Dhritarashtra
wished to give sixteen cars made of gold, each drawn by four excellent
and well-adorned steeds of uniform colour and of the Bahlika breed to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna_in_the_Mah%C4%81bh%C4%81rata - Vasudeva Krishna who came to talk to him on behalf of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandavas - Pandavas (5,86).
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bahlikas&action=edit§ion=11 - edit ]Bahlika horses in other references
Brahamanda Purana refers to the horses from Bahlika http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-39 - [40] . Similarly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmiki - Valmiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana - Ramayana refers to the horses of Bahlika, Kamboja and Vanayu countries as of excellent breed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-40 - [41] . Upamitibhavaprapanchakatha singles out horses from Bahlika and those from Kamboja and Turuksha as the best http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-41 - [42] . The Abhidhanaratanamala also mentions examples of excellent horses from Bahlika, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia - Persia , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamboja - Kamboja , Vanayu, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhu - Sindhu and the land bordering on Sindhu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_note-42 - [43] .
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bahlikas&action=edit§ion=12 - edit ]Bahlika and 'Sammoha Tantra
The Sammoha Tantra speaks of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantric - Tantric culture of foreign countries like Bahlika , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiratas - Kirata , Bhota, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinas - Cina , Mahacina, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahlavas - Parasika , Airaka (Iraq), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas - Kamboja , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunas - Huna , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavana - Yavana , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara - Gandhara and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal - Nepal .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-9 - ^
Cultural Heritage of India, Vol I, Dr S. K. Chatterjee, Ph. D, D.Lit p
44: Introduction by Dr Radha Krishanan/Second President of India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-10 - ^ Atharvaveda Pari. 51.33; Early Eastern Iran and Atharvaveda, Persica-9, 1980' p 106, Dr Michael Witzel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-11 - ^ Indian Historical Quarterly, XXVI, 118n
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-12 - ^ MBH I. 67.6; I.112.3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-13 - ^ MBH I. 124. 21
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-16 - ^ Ramayana II.54.18-19; Geographical Data in Early Puranas, p 120, Dr M. R. Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-17 - ^ The Puranas Text of the Dynastics of the Kali Age, p 50, Dr P. E. Pargiter; op cit, p 127, Dr M. R. Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-18 - ^ Op. Cit, p 127, Dr M. R. Singh; The Purana Text of the Dynastics of the Kali Age, p 50, Dr P. E. Pargiter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-19 - ^ Periplus, p 74; Ethnic Settlements in Ancient India, p 174.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-20 - ^ See: Purana Text of the Dynastics of Kali Age, p 50, Dr P. E. Pargiter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-21 - ^ Satapatha Brahamana XII 9.3.3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-22 - ^ MBH V, 23.9; 149.27; Journal o Royal Asiatic Society, 1910, p 52
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-23 - ^ Bahlikan cha mahabalam : 5.155.33.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-25 - ^ Ethnic Settlements in Ancient India, p 110
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-26 - ^ Ramayana, (Lahore Edition), Uttarakanda, 89-3-2, pp 299-300, 309; cf: Ethnic Settlements in Ancient India, p 110
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-27 - ^ Studies in Indian Antiquaries, p 234; Geographical Data in Early Puranas, 1972, p 123-24, Dr M. R. Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-28 - ^ Kamasutra of Vatsyayana, p 385
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-30 - ^
Vedic Index, I, p 84-85, 138; India as Known to Panini, 1953, p 50, Dr
Aggarwal; Some Kshatriya Tribes, p 232, Dr B. C. Law; Indian as Known
to Panini, p 50; Geographical Data in Early Puranas, pp 65, 164, Dr M.
R. Singh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-31 - ^
The Udumbras, Journal Asiatique, 1926, p 11, Jean Przylusky, showing
that Bahlika (Balkh) was an Iranian settlement of the Madras who were
known as Bahlika-Uttaramadras; Op cit., p 50, Dr Aggarwal; op cit., pp
65, 164, Dr M. R. Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-33 - ^ In accordance with the views of Dr J. Przyluski, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._B._Keith - A. B. Keith , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._A._Macdonell - A. A. Macdonell , Dr V. S. Aggarwal, Dr M.R. Singh, Dr J. L. Kamboj
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-34 - ^ Amarkosha, p 159, Amarsimha.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-37 - ^
History and Culture of Indian People, Age of Imperial Kanauj, p 57, Dr
Pusalkar and Dr Majumdar; also: Ancient India, 1956, pp 141-142, Dr R.
K. Mukerjee; Political and Social Movements in Ancient Panjab, 1964, p
202, Dr Buddha Parkash; The Culture and Art of India, p 1959, p 91;
Comprehensive History of Ancient India, Vol II, 1957, p 4, Dr K. A. N.
Sastri
Original text from Mudrarakshasa in Sanskrit:
asti tava Shaka-Yavana-Kirata-Kamboja-Parsika-Bahlika parbhutibhih
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-41 - ^ Upamiti 474; History and Culture of Indian People, The age of Imperial Kanauj, p 405, Dr R. C. Majumdar, Dr A. D. Pusalkar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas#_ref-42 - ^ II, No 511, 284; Op cit., p 405, Dr R. C. Majumdar, Dr A. D. Pusalkar.
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bahlikas&action=edit§ion=14 - edit ]See also
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahlikas "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Categories - Categories : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_India - Ancient India | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:History_of_Iran - History of Iran | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Persian_history - Persian history | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Iranian_peoples - Iranian peoples | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ethnic_groups_in_Iran - Ethnic groups in Iran | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Central_Asia - Central Asia | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:History_of_Afghanistan - History of Afghanistan | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:History_of_Pakistan - History of Pakistan | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Kambojas - Kambojas
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------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 20:19
Balkh-Aryan, there is really no point to copy paste wiki articles. You can just paste the link preferably with short description what is it about and how it support your ideas ;)
I personally do not see how is it related to history of Bulgaria apart from similarity of names.
------------- .
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 20:28
[Note: A recent archeological find in Kuwait unearthed a gold-plated
statue of the Hindu deity Ganesh. A Muslim resident of Kuwait requested
historical research material that can help explain the connection between Hindu
civilisation and Arabia.]
Was the Kaaba Originally a Hindu Temple?
By P.N. Oak (Historian)
Glancing through some research material recently, I was pleasantly surprised to come
across a reference to a king Vikramaditya inscription found in the Kaaba
in Mecca proving beyond doubt that the Arabian Peninsula formed a part of his Indian
Empire.
The text of the crucial Vikramaditya inscription, found inscribed on a gold dish hung
inside the Kaaba shrine in Mecca, is found recorded on page 315 of a volume known as
‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ treasured in the Makhtab-e-Sultania library in Istanbul, Turkey.
Rendered in free English the inscription says:
"Fortunate are those who were born (and lived) during king Vikram’s reign. He
was a noble, generous dutiful ruler, devoted to the welfare of his subjects. But at that
time we Arabs, oblivious of God, were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting and torture were
rampant. The darkness of ignorance had enveloped our country. Like the lamb struggling for
her life in the cruel paws of a wolf we Arabs were caught up in ignorance. The entire
country was enveloped in a darkness so intense as on a new moon night. But the present
dawn and pleasant sunshine of education is the result of the favour of the noble king
Vikramaditya whose benevolent supervision did not lose sight of us- foreigners as we were.
He spread his sacred religion amongst us and sent scholars whose brilliance shone like
that of the sun from his country to ours. These scholars and preceptors through whose
benevolence we were once again made cognisant of the presence of God, introduced to His
sacred existence and put on the road of Truth, had come to our country to preach their
religion and impart education at king Vikramaditya’s behest."
For those who would like to read the Arabic wording I reproduce it hereunder in Roman
script:
"Itrashaphai Santu Ibikramatul Phahalameen Karimun Yartapheeha Wayosassaru
Bihillahaya Samaini Ela Motakabberen Sihillaha Yuhee Quid min howa Yapakhara phajjal asari
nahone osirom bayjayhalem. Yundan blabin Kajan blnaya khtoryaha sadunya kanateph netephi
bejehalin Atadari bilamasa- rateen phakef tasabuhu kaunnieja majekaralhada walador. As
hmiman burukankad toluho watastaru hihila Yakajibaymana balay kulk amarena phaneya
jaunabilamary Bikramatum".
(Page 315 Sayar-ul-okul).
[Note: The title ‘Saya-ul-okul’ signifies memorable words.]
A careful analysis of the above inscription enables us to draw the following
conclusions:
That the ancient Indian empires may have extended up to the eastern boundaries of Arabia
until Vikramaditya and that it was he who for the first time conquered Arabia. Because the
inscription says that king Vikram who dispelled the darkness of ignorance from Arabia.
That, whatever their earlier faith, King Vikrama’s preachers had succeeded in
spreading the Vedic (based on the Vedas, the Hindu sacred scriptures)) way of life in
Arabia.
That the knowledge of Indian arts and sciences was imparted by Indians to the Arabs
directly by founding schools, academies and cultural centres. The belief, therefore, that
visiting Arabs conveyed that knowledge to their own lands through their own indefatigable
efforts and scholarship is unfounded.
An ancillary conclusion could be that the so-called Kutub Minar (in Delhi, India) could
well be king Vikramadiya’s tower commemorating his conquest of Arabia. This
conclusion is strengthened by two pointers. Firstly, the inscription on the iron pillar
near the so-called Kutub Minar refers to the marriage of the victorious king Vikramaditya
to the princess of Balhika. This Balhika is none other than the Balkh region in West Asia.
It could be that Arabia was wrestled by king Vikramaditya from the ruler of Balkh who
concluded a treaty by giving his daughter in marriage to the victor. Secondly, the
township adjoining the so called Kutub Minar is named Mehrauli after Mihira who was the
renowned astronomer-mathematician of king Vikram’s court. Mehrauli is the corrupt
form of Sanskrit ‘Mihira-Awali’ signifying a row of houses raised for Mihira and
his helpers and assistants working on astronomical observations made from the tower.
Having seen the far reaching and history shaking implications of the Arabic inscription
concerning king Vikrama, we shall now piece together the story of its find. How it came to
be recorded and hung in the Kaaba in Mecca. What are the other proofs reinforcing the
belief that Arabs were once followers of the Indian Vedic way of life and that
tranquillity and education were ushered into Arabia by king Vikramaditya’s scholars,
educationists from an uneasy period of "ignorance and turmoil" mentioned in the
inscription.
In Istanbul, Turkey, there is a famous library called Makhatab-e-Sultania, which is
reputed to have the largest collection of ancient West Asian literature. In the Arabic
section of that library is an anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. That anthology was
compiled from an earlier work in A.D. 1742 under the orders of the Turkish ruler Sultan
Salim.
The pages of that volume are of Hareer – a kind of silk used for writing on. Each
page has a decorative gilded border. That anthology is known as Sayar-ul-Okul. It is
divided into three parts. The first part contains biographic details and the poetic
compositions of pre-Islamic Arabian poets. The second part embodies accounts and verses of
poets of the period beginning just after prophet Mohammad’s times, up to the end of
the Banee-Um-Mayya dynasty. The third part deals with later poets up to the end of Khalif
Harun-al-Rashid’s times.
Abu Amir Asamai, an Arabian bard who was the poet Laureate of Harun-al-Rashid’s
court, has compiled and edited the anthology.
The first modern edition of ‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ was printed and published in
Berlin in 1864. A subsequent edition is the one published in Beirut in 1932.
The collection is regarded as the most important and authoritative anthology of ancient
Arabic poetry. It throws considerable light on the social life, customs, manners and
entertainment modes of ancient Arabia. The book also contains an elaborate description of
the ancient shrine of Mecca, the town and the annual fair known as OKAJ which used to be
held every year around the Kaaba temple in Mecca. This should convince readers that the
annual haj of the Muslims to the Kaaba is of earlier pre-Islamic congregation.
But the OKAJ fair was far from a carnival. It provided a forum for the elite and the
learned to discuss the social, religious, political, literary and other aspects of the
Vedic culture then pervading Arabia. ‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ asserts that the conclusion
reached at those discussions were widely respected throughout Arabia. Mecca, therefore,
followed the Varanasi tradition (of India) of providing a venue for important discussions
among the learned while the masses congregated there for spiritual bliss. The principal
shrines at both Varanasi in India and at Mecca in Arvasthan (Arabia) were Siva temples.
Even to this day ancient Mahadev (Siva) emblems can be seen. It is the Shankara (Siva)
stone that Muslim pilgrims reverently touch and kiss in the Kaaba.
Arabic tradition has lost trace of the founding of the Kaaba temple. The discovery of
the Vikramaditya inscription affords a clue. King Vikramaditya is known for his great
devotion to Lord Mahadev (Siva). At Ujjain (India), the capital of Vikramaditya, exists
the famous shrine of Mahankal, i.e., of Lord Shankara (Siva) associated with Vikramaditya.
Since according to the Vikramaditya inscription he spread the Vedic religion, who else but
he could have founded the Kaaba temple in Mecca?
A few miles away from Mecca is a big signboard which bars the entry of any non-Muslim
into the area. This is a reminder of the days when the Kaaba was stormed and captured
solely for the newly established faith of Islam. The object in barring entry of
non-Muslims was obviously to prevent its recapture.
As the pilgrim proceeds towards Mecca he is asked to shave his head and beard and to
don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless sheets of white cloth. One is to
be worn round the waist and the other over the shoulders. Both these rites are remnants of
the old Vedic practice of entering Hindu temples clean- and with holy seamless white
sheets.
The main shrine in Mecca, which houses the Siva emblem, is known as the Kaaba. It is
clothed in a black shroud. That custom also originates from the days when it was thought
necessary to discourage its recapture by camouflaging it.
According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, the Kaaba has 360 images. Traditional
accounts mention that one of the deities among the 360 destroyed when the place was
stormed, was that of Saturn; another was of the Moon and yet another was one called Allah.
That shows that in the Kaaba the Arabs worshipped the nine planets in pre-Islamic days. In
India the practice of ‘Navagraha’ puja, that is worship of the nine planets, is
still in vogue. Two of these nine are Saturn and Moon.
In India the crescent moon is always painted across the forehead of the Siva symbol.
Since that symbol was associated with the Siva emblem in Kaaba it came to be grafted on
the flag of Islam.
Another Hindu tradition associated with the Kaaba is that of the sacred stream Ganga
(sacred waters of the Ganges river). According to the Hindu tradition Ganga is also
inseparable from the Shiva emblem as the crescent moon. Wherever there is a Siva emblem,
Ganga must co-exist. True to that association a sacred fount exists near the Kaaba. Its
water is held sacred because it has been traditionally regarded as Ganga since pre-Islamic
times (Zam-Zam water).
[Note: Even today, Muslim pilgrims who go to the Kaaba for Haj regard this Zam-Zam
water with reverence and take some bottled water with them as sacred water.]
Muslim pilgrims visiting the Kaaba temple go around it seven times. In no other mosque
does the circumambulation prevail. Hindus invariably circumambulate around their deities.
This is yet another proof that the Kaaba shrine is a pre-Islamic Indian Shiva temple where
the Hindu practice of circumambulation is still meticulously observed.
The practice of taking seven steps- known as Saptapadi in Sanskrit- is associated with
Hindu marriage ceremony and fire worship. The culminating rite in a Hindu marriage enjoins
upon the bride and groom to go round the sacred fire four times (but misunderstood by many
as seven times). Since "Makha" means fire, the seven circumambulations also
prove that Mecca was the seat of Indian fire-worship in the West Asia.
It might come as a stunning revelation to many that the word ‘ALLAH’ itself
is Sanskrit. In Sanskrit language Allah, Akka and Amba are synonyms. They signify a
goddess or mother. The term ‘ALLAH’ forms part of Sanskrit chants invoking
goddess Durga, also known as Bhavani, Chandi and Mahishasurmardini. The Islamic word for
God is., therefore, not an innovation but the ancient Sanskrit appellation retained and
continued by Islam. Allah means mother or goddess and mother goddess.
One Koranic verse is an exact translation of a stanza in the Yajurveda. This was
pointed out by the great research scholar Pandit Satavlekar of Pardi in one of his
articles.
[Note: Another scholar points out that the following teaching from the Koran is exactly
similar to the teaching of the Kena Upanishad (1.7).
The Koran:
"Sight perceives Him not. But He perceives men's sights; for He is the knower of
secrets, the Aware."
Kena Upanishad:
"That which cannot be seen by the eye but through which the eye itself sees, know
That to be Brahman (God) and not what people worship here (in the manifested world)."
A simplified meaning of both the above verses reads:
God is one and that He is beyond man's sensory experience.]
The identity of Unani and Ayurvedic systems shows that Unani is just the Arabic term
for the Ayurvedic system of healing taught to them and administered in Arabia when Arabia
formed part of the Indian empire.
It will now be easy to comprehend the various Hindu customs still prevailing in West
Asian countries even after the existence of Islam during the last 1300 years. Let us
review some Hindu traditions which exist as the core of Islamic practice.
The Hindus have a pantheon of 33 gods. People in Asia Minor too worshipped 33 gods
before the spread of Islam. The lunar calendar was introduced in West Asia during the
Indian rule. The Muslim month ‘Safar’ signifying the ‘extra’ month
(Adhik Maas) in the Hindu calendar. The Muslim month Rabi is the corrupt form of Ravi
meaning the sun because Sanskrit ‘V’ changes into Prakrit ‘B’ (Prakrit
being the popular version of Sanskrit language). The Muslim sanctity for Gyrahwi Sharif is
nothing but the Hindu Ekadashi (Gyrah = elevan or Gyaarah). Both are identical in meaning.
The Islamic practice of Bakari Eed derives from the Go-Medh and Ashva-Medh Yagnas or
sacrifices of Vedic times. Eed in Sanskrit means worship. The Islamic word Eed for festive
days, signifying days of worship, is therefore a pure Sanskrit word. The word MESH in the
Hindu zodiac signifies a lamb. Since in ancient times the year used to begin with the
entry of the sun in Aries, the occasion was celebrated with mutton feasting. That is the
origin of the Bakari Eed festival.
[Note: The word Bakari is an Indian language word for a goat.]
Since Eed means worship and Griha means ‘house’, the Islamic word Idgah
signifies a ‘House of worship’ which is the exact Sanskrit connotation of the
term. Similarly the word ‘Namaz’ derives from two Sanskrit roots
‘Nama’ and ‘Yajna’ (NAMa yAJna) meaning bowing and worshipping.
Vedic descriptions about the moon, the different stellar constellations and the
creation of the universe have been incorporated from the Vedas in Koran part 1 chapter 2,
stanza 113, 114, 115, and 158, 189, chapter 9, stanza 37 and chapter 10, stanzas 4 to 7.
Recital of the Namaz five times a day owes its origin to the Vedic injunction of
Panchmahayagna (five daily worship- Panch-Maha-Yagna) which is part of the daily Vedic
ritual prescribed for all individuals.
Muslims are enjoined cleanliness of five parts of the body before commencing prayers.
This derives from the Vedic injuction ‘Shareer Shydhyartham Panchanga Nyasah’.
Four months of the year are regarded as very sacred in Islamic custom. The devout are
enjoined to abstain from plunder and other evil deeds during that period. This originates
in the Chaturmasa i.e., the four-month period of special vows and austerities in Hindu
tradition. Shabibarat is the corrupt form of Shiva Vrat and Shiva Ratra. Since the Kaaba
has been an important centre of Shiva (Siva) worship from times immemorial, the Shivaratri
festival used to be celebrated there with great gusto. It is that festival which is
signified by the Islamic word Shabibarat.
Encyclopaedias tell us that there are inscriptions on the side of the Kaaba walls. What
they are, no body has been allowed to study, according to the correspondence I had with an
American scholar of Arabic. But according to hearsay at least some of those inscriptions
are in Sanskrit, and some of them are stanzas from the Bhagavad Gita.
According to extant Islamic records, Indian merchants had settled in Arabia,
particularly in Yemen, and their life and manners deeply influenced those who came in
touch with them. At Ubla there was a large number of Indian settlements. This shows that
Indians were in Arabia and Yemen in sufficient strength and commanding position to be able
to influence the local people. This could not be possible unless they belonged to the
ruling class.
It is mentioned in the Abadis i.e., the authentic traditions of Prophet Mohammad
compiled by Imam Bukhari that the Indian tribe of Jats had settled in Arabia before
Prophet Mohammad’s times. Once when Hazrat Ayesha, wife of the Prophet, was taken
ill, her nephew sent for a Jat physician for her treatment. This proves that Indians
enjoyed a high and esteemed status in Arabia. Such a status could not be theirs unless
they were the rulers. Bukhari also tells us that an Indian Raja (king) sent a jar of
ginger pickles to the Prophet. This shows that the Indian Jat Raja ruled an adjacent area
so as to be in a position to send such an insignificant present as ginger pickles. The
Prophet is said to have so highly relished it as to have told his colleagues also to
partake of it. These references show that even during Prophet Mohammad’s times
Indians retained their influential role in Arabia, which was a dwindling legacy from
Vikramaditya’s times.
The Islamic term ‘Eed-ul-Fitr’ derives from the ‘Eed of Piters’
that is worship of forefathers in Sanskrit tradition. In India, Hindus commemorate their
ancestors during the Pitr-Paksha that is the fortnight reserved for their remembrance. The
very same is the significance of ‘Eed-ul-Fitr’ (worship of forefathers).
The Islamic practice of observing the moon rise before deciding on celebrating the
occasion derives from the Hindu custom of breaking fast on Sankranti and Vinayaki
Chaturthi only after sighting the moon.
Barah Vafat, the Muslim festival for commemorating those dead in battle or by weapons,
derives from a similar Sanskrit tradition because in Sanskrit ‘Phiphaut’ is
‘death’. Hindus observe Chayal Chaturdashi in memory of those who have died in
battle.
The word Arabia is itself the abbreviation of a Sanskrit word. The original word is
‘Arabasthan’. Since Prakrit ‘B’ is Sanskrit ‘V’ the original
Sanskrit name of the land is ‘Arvasthan’. ‘Arva’ in Sanskrit means a
horse. Arvasthan signifies a land of horses., and as well all know, Arabia is famous for
its horses.
This discovery changes the entire complexion of the history of ancient India. Firstly
we may have to revise our concepts about the king who had the largest empire in history.
It could be that the expanse of king Vikramaditya’s empire was greater than that of
all others. Secondly, the idea that the Indian empire spread only to the east and not in
the west beyond say, Afghanisthan may have to be abandoned. Thirdly the effeminate and
pathetic belief that India, unlike any other country in the world could by some age spread
her benign and beatific cultural influence, language, customs, manners and education over
distant lands without militarily conquering them is baseless. India did conquer all those
countries physically wherever traces of its culture and language are still extant and the
region extended from Bali island in the south Pacific to the Baltic in Northern Europe and
from Korea to Kaaba. The only difference was that while Indian rulers identified
themselves with the local population and established welfare states, Moghuls and others
who ruled conquered lands perpetuated untold atrocities over the vanquished.
‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ tells us that a pan-Arabic poetic symposium used to be held
in Mecca at the annual Okaj fair in pre-Islamic times. All leading poets used to
participate in it.
Poems considered best were awarded prizes. The best-engraved on gold plate were hung
inside the temple. Others etched on camel or goatskin were hung outside. Thus for
thousands of years the Kaaba was the treasure house of the best Arabian poetic thought
inspired by the Indian Vedic tradition.
That tradition being of immemorial antiquity many poetic compositions were engraved and
hung inside and outside on the walls of the Kaaba. But most of the poems got lost and
destroyed during the storming of the Kaaba by Prophet Mohammad’s troops. The
Prophet’s court poet, Hassan-bin-Sawik, who was among the invaders, captured some of
the treasured poems and dumped the gold plate on which they were inscribed in his own
home. Sawik’s grandson, hoping to earn a reward carried those gold plates to
Khalif’s court where he met the well-known Arab scholar Abu Amir Asamai. The latter
received from the bearer five gold plates and 16 leather sheets with the prize-winning
poems engraved on them. The bearer was sent away happy bestowed with a good reward.
On the five gold plates were inscribed verses by ancient Arab poets like Labi Baynay,
Akhatab-bin-Turfa and Jarrham Bintoi. That discovery made Harun-al-Rashid order Abu Amir
to compile a collection of all earlier compositions. One of the compositions in the
collection is a tribute in verse paid by Jarrham Bintoi, a renowned Arab poet, to king
Vikramaditya. Bintoi who lived 165 years before Prophet Mohammad had received the highest
award for the best poetic compositions for three years in succession in the pan-Arabic
symposiums held in Mecca every year. All those three poems of Bintoi adjudged best were
hung inside the Kaaba temple, inscribed on gold plates. One of these constituted an
unreserved tribute to King Vikramaditya for his paternal and filial rule over Arabia. That
has already been quoted above.
Pre-Islamic Arabian poet Bintoi’s tribute to king Vikramaditya is a decisive
evidence that it was king Vikramaditya who first conquered the Arabian Peninsula and made
it a part of the Indian Empire. This explains why starting from India towards the west we
have all Sanskrit names like Afghanisthan (now Afghanistan), Baluchisthan, Kurdisthan,
Tajikiathan, Uzbekisthan, Iran, Sivisthan, Iraq, Arvasthan, Turkesthan
(Turkmenisthan) etc.
Historians have blundered in not giving due weight to the evidence provided by Sanskrit
names pervading over the entire west Asian region. Let us take a contemporary instance.
Why did a part of India get named Nagaland even after the end of British rule over India?
After all historical traces are wiped out of human memory, will a future age historian be
wrong if he concludes from the name Nagaland that the British or some English speaking
power must have ruled over India? Why is Portuguese spoken in Goa (part of India), and
French in Pondichery (part of India), and both French and English in Canada? Is it not
because those people ruled over the territories where their languages are spoken? Can we
not then justly conclude that wherever traces of Sanskrit names and traditions exist
Indians once held sway? It is unfortunate that this important piece of decisive evidence
has been ignored all these centuries.
Another question which should have presented itself to historians for consideration is
how could it be that Indian empires could extend in the east as far as Korea and Japan,
while not being able to make headway beyond Afghanisthan? In fact land campaigns are much
easier to conduct than by sea. It was the Indians who ruled the entire West Asian region
from Karachi to Hedjaz and who gave Sanskrit names to those lands and the towns therein,
introduce their pantheon of the fire-worship, imparted education and established law and
order.
It may be that Arabia itself was not part of the Indian empire until king Vikrama ,
since Bintoi says that it was king Vikrama who for the first time brought about a radical
change in the social, cultural and political life of Arabia. It may be that the whole of
West Asia except Arabia was under Indian rule before Vikrama. The latter added Arabia too
to the Indian Empire. Or as a remote possibility it could be that king Vikramaditya
himself conducted a series of brilliant campaigns annexing to his empire the vast region
between Afghanisthan and Hedjaz.
Incidentally this also explains why king Vikramaditya is so famous in history. Apart
from the nobility and truthfulness of heart and his impartial filial affection for all his
subjects, whether Indian or Arab, as testified by Bintoi, king Vikramaditya has been
permanently enshrined in the pages of history because he was the world’s greatest
ruler having the largest empire. It should be remembered that only a monarch with a vast
empire gets famous in world history. Vikram Samvat (calendar still widely in use in India
today) which he initiated over 2000 years ago may well mark his victory over Arabia, and
the so called Kutub Minar (Kutub Tower in Delhi), a pillar commemorating that victory and
the consequential marriage with the Vaihika (Balkh) princess as testified by the nearby
iron pillar inscription.
A great many puzzles of ancient world history get automatically solved by a proper
understanding of these great conquests of king Vikramaditya. As recorded by the Arab poet
Bintoi, Indian scholars, preachers and social workers spread the fire-worship ceremony,
preached the Vedic way of life, manned schools, set up Ayurvedic (healing) centres,
trained the local people in irrigation and agriculture and established in those regions a
democratic, orderly, peaceful, enlightened and religious way of life. That was of course,
a Vedic Hindu way of life.
It is from such ancient times that Indian Kshtriya royal families, like the Pahalvis
and Barmaks, have held sway over Iran and Iraq. It is those conquests, which made the
Parsees Agnihotris i.e., fire-worshippers. It is therefore that we find the Kurds of
Kurdisthan speaking a Sanskritised dialect, fire temples existing thousands of miles away
from India, and scores of sites of ancient Indian cultural centres like Navbahar in West
Asia and the numerous viharas in Soviet Russia spread throughout the world. Ever since so
many viharas are often dug up in Soviet Russia, ancient Indian sculptures are also found
in excavations in Central Asia. The same goes for West Asia.
[Note: Ancient Indian sculptures include metal statues of the Hindu deity Ganesh (the
elephant headed god); the most recent find being in Kuwait].
Unfortunately these chapters of world history have been almost obliterated from public
memory. They need to be carefully deciphered and rewritten. When these chapters are
rewritten they might change the entire concept and orientation of ancient history.
In view of the overwhelming evidence led above, historians, scholars, students of
history and lay men alike should take note that they had better revise their text books of
ancient world history. The existence of Hindu customs, shrines, Sanskrit names of whole
regions, countries and towns and the Vikramaditya inscriptions reproduced at the beginning
are a thumping proof that Indian Kshatriyas once ruled over the vast region from Bali to
Baltic and Korea to Kaaba in Mecca, Arabia at the very least.
Links to similar topics
go to http://www.google.com/ - www.google.com/
in the search box type
Sword of truth Aditi Chaturvedi
The following explanation is reproduced from the Sword of Truth archives.
All Arabic copies of the Koran have the mysterious figure 786 imprinted on them . No
Arabic scholar has been able to determine the choice of this particular number as divine.
It is an established fact that Muhammad was illiterate therefore it is obvious that he
would not be able to differentiate numbers from letters. This "magical" number
is none other than the Vedic holy letter "OM" written in Sanskrit (Refer to
figure 2). Anyone who knows Sanskrit can try reading the symbol for "OM"
backwards in the Arabic way and magically the numbers 786 will appear! Muslims in their
ignorance simply do not realise that this special number is nothing more than the holiest
of Vedic symbols misread.
Figure 2.
Read from right to left this figure
of OM represents the numbers 786
Look at this symbol of Om in a mirror and
you can make out the Devnagari (Sanskrit-Hindi)
numerals 7-8-6
We received the following email from one of our readers
Sun, 07 Nov 2004 02:24:39+0300
Kabaa-Kabaali-Lord Shiva*
Dear Sir,
First of all I heartly thank for hosting such a beautiful website. I read the message
" Is the Kabaa a Hindu temple ???". It was a very Intresting, thought provoking
and informative message. I would like to bring to your notice regarding this, that the
word Kabaa might have come from the TAMIL language - Kabaalishwaran temple (TAMIL is
considered as one of the oldest languages of the world). Dravidian's worshiped Lord Shiva
as their Primal Deity - Indus valley civilization. Shiva Temple's in South India are
called as Kabaalishwaran temple's. Kabaali - refers to Lord Shiva.
-Dr.Davis S.Senthilkumar
====================================
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http://www.hinduism.co.za/islam-.htm - Islam Stagnant
http://www.hinduism.co.za/adhik.htm - Adhik Maas
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http://www.hinduism.co.za/alphabet.htm - Index Alphabetical [Index to Pages]
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Disclaimer: For a long time various scholars and historians erroniously
considered the Bulgars that migrated from the East, settled in the
Balkans and assimilated with Slavic invaders from the North to be of
turkic origin. Recent research suggests that Bulgars were of Iranic
stock, speaking an Indo-European tongue from Pamir, who through the
course of their long trek to the West, as a direct result of barbarian
attacks merely picked up some turkic elements.
The
first information about the Bulgarian presence in these lands was given
by Mar Abas Katina. It is in the composition of Moses Horen “A History
of Armenia” (book II, 6, 9). In the days of the Armenian king Arshak,
the time between the reign of Artaksi II Arshak (33-20 BC) and Arshak
(35-41 AD), troubles were breeding in the gorges of the great mountain
of Caucasus, in the “Country of the Bulgarians”. Many of them separated
and settled in the foothills of Koh (Kol), in the fertile lands of
Upper (No Trees) Basian. The colonists were of the people Vlndur Bulgar
Vund.
The region began to be called after their leader Vanand
and the settlements were named after his brothers and successors,
Bulhar, Doks, Toh (Tuh), Altsek. This Bulgarian toponymy can be found
in the compositions of the later Armenian historians, A. Kretatsi, J.
Drashanakertatsi, M. Kalankatuatsi. At the beginning of the 4th century
Vanand’s descendants fell within the evangelisation reach of the young
Armenian Church. Tsar Tiran (338-350) ordered a royal suite to
accompany the candidate for Catholicos, Iusik, to his accession in
Cesaria. Orot, the prince of Vanand, was in the suite. When the sons of
Catholicos Iusik turned unworthy of receiving the pastor’s sceptre from
his own hand, the tsar sent four princes to invite the pupil of Gregory
Educator, Bishop Danail. Artavan, the prince of Vanand was among them.
Favstos
Buzand wrote as a witness that in the process of the division of
Armenia in zones of influence between Rome and Persia (387), people of
“the clan of the Vanands” did not join any of the sides but retreated
in the mountainous forests of Taik. Those brave people, who were ready
to defend their freedom risking their life, knew only one way of
communicating with other tribes and peoples – peaceful settlement and
equal coexistence. At that time, the bishop of Vanand was Zorguaz who
lived and served as an exemplary Christian pastor. At the end of the
4th and the beginning of the 5th century, some of the Bulgarians from
Armenia migrated back to North Caucasus. The rest of the Vanand people
stayed and shared the dramatic history of the Armenians. After the
decree of the Persian Tsar Jezdigert II (449) to abolish Christian
faith in the country, the bishops of Armenia, Georgia and Albania
refused to obey. Gad, the bishop of Vanand, was one of the participants
in the meeting who made that decision. Egishe, a participant in the
decisive Battle of Avarai (26 May 451), tells that one of the three
Christian armies was led by the Bulgarian Tatul of Vanand. The Armenian
Church notifies that 1036 Christian warriors entered their names in the
“book of life” on that same day. In the vacuum of power after the death
of Jezdigert II (457), N. Chichraketsi united the greater part of the
Armenian people and chased away the Persian troops from the country. M.
Horenski notes the Bulgarian participation, “Here all people of Vanand
distinguished themselves with their courage” (book III, 56).
The
copy of the Throne Certificate (Gahnamak) of the middle of the 5th
century, which has been preserved, is a testimonial of the unification
of the Bulgarians in the Armenian society. In it, among the 70 clans,
the clan of the Vanands occupies the 14th place. It should be noted
that 10 of the clans were considered senior and had “attributed” posts
and unchangeable functions in the social and political life of Armenia.
One Armenian Catholicos even has the preface “Altsek” in his name –
Komitas I Altseki (651-628).
~~~
The Ancient Bulgarians from Imeon and their Neighbours 03.2001 Senior Research Associate Dr. Peter Dobrev, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
Near
Mount Imeon (present day Pamyr and Hindukush), the most ancient
Bulgarian land, one of the earliest agricultural civilisations of the
East developed 4000-5000 years ago. It is evident from the preserved
sources that the Bulgarians and their neighbouring peoples were related
to this civilisation. Historical science did not possess any concrete
facts about that for a long time. A valuable hand-written copy of the
ancient Armenian geography “Ashharatsuits” has been found recently. In
it, the Bulgarians are mentioned among the 15 old trade and
craftsmanship peoples, which inhabited the area between Persia and
Turkestan in the foothills of Mount Imeon. In the text, the name of the
Bulgarians is mentioned second among the peoples listed which means
that they were among the most outstanding and respected ethnic groups
in the region. Besides them, some of the ancient Huns, whom the
Armenian historians describe as a backward, undeveloped tribe, lived
near Mount Imeon.
That is why it is not correct to equate the
Huns and the Bulgarians, as the proponents of the Huno-Bulgarian theory
do. The Armenians did not possess the notion of Huno-Bulgarians. The
same is true about the ancient Indian historians who describe the
Bulgarians as a developed and proud people and the Huns as one of the
most backward nomadic tribes.
During the ages before Christ,
close neighbours of the Bulgarians were the Massagets, an ancient and
very powerful people which was famous for the fact that its queen
Tomiris defeated the Persian king Kir. The fact that one of the most
erudite Byzantine historians, Prokopius Kesar, uses the name
“Massagets” as a synonym of the Kutrigurs, one of the well-known
Bulgarian tribes, is indicative of the close relationship between the
Bulgarians and the Massagets.
Other authors like Amian Martselin
consider the Massagets to be the forefathers of the Alans who were then
the closest allies of the Bulgarians in Asia. It shows that the union
between the Bulgarians and the Alans started as early as the time when
the ancient Bulgarians lived near Mount Imeon and continued on the
territory of Europe.
During the ages before Christ, close
neighbours of the Bulgarians were the Massagets, an ancient and very
powerful people which was famous for the fact that its queen Tomiris
defeated the Persian king Kir. The fact that one of the most erudite
Byzantine historians, Prokopius Kesar, uses the name “Massagets” as a
synonym of the Kutrigurs, one of the well-known Bulgarian tribes, is
indicative of the close relationship between the Bulgarians and the
Massagets.
Other authors like Amian Martselin consider the
Massagets to be the forefathers of the Alans who were then the closest
allies of the Bulgarians in Asia. It shows that the union between the
Bulgarians and the Alans started as early as the time when the ancient
Bulgarians lived near Mount Imeon and continued on the territory of
Europe.
The Saks, who were called Shaka, were another
neighbouring people of the Bulgarians of the earliest period. This
great and mighty tribe once lived to the east and north of Imeon.
According to the legends, Budha, also known as Shakyamuni, sprang.
Little is known of the relations between the Bulgarians and the Saks.
It is known though that the Saks spoke a language of the
Eastern-Iranian type, which was close to the Sogdian language. They
resembled the ancient Bulgarians in their outer appearance; there is
information about that in the Indian sources. In the Arabic chronicles,
the Bulgarians were called by two parallel names, Bulgarians and
Sakalibs. When their king sent a letter to the Arab khalif,
Al-Moktadir, he called himself King of the Sakalibs in order, perhaps,
to highlight his connection to the famous ancient Saks. It is also
known that a characteristic feature of the clothing of the Saks and the
Volga Bulgarians was the tall pointed fur cap. That is shown in the
Persian images and the picture of Volga Bulgaria where the tall pointed
cap is called “kalansuva va al-Bulgaria” (Bulgarian cap) by the Arab
writer.
The Saks, who were called Shaka, were another
neighbouring people of the Bulgarians of the earliest period. This
great and mighty tribe once lived to the east and north of Imeon.
According to the legends, Budha, also known as Shakyamuni, sprang.
Little is known of the relations between the Bulgarians and the Saks.
It is known though that the Saks spoke a language of the
Eastern-Iranian type, which was close to the Sogdian language. They
resembled the ancient Bulgarians in their outer appearance; there is
information about that in the Indian sources. In the Arabic chronicles,
the Bulgarians were called by two parallel names, Bulgarians and
Sakalibs. When their king sent a letter to the Arab khalif,
Al-Moktadir, he called himself King of the Sakalibs in order, perhaps,
to highlight his connection to the famous ancient Saks. It is also
known that a characteristic feature of the clothing of the Saks and the
Volga Bulgarians was the tall pointed fur cap. That is shown in the
Persian images and the picture of Volga Bulgaria where the tall pointed
cap is called “kalansuva va al-Bulgaria” (Bulgarian cap) by the Arab
writer.
The information of the ancient calendar of the Sacs,
which was brought to India and kept many centuries, shows that it was
similar to the ancient Bulgarian calendar. In it, every year had a
special name, “sal bagai”, which means commander of the year in the
language of the Saks. The specific word “bagai” (commander) almost
entirely matches the word “bagain” which was a war title of the ancient
Bulgarians.
The famous peoples of Utis, Paktis and Sogdians were
also neighbours of the Bulgarians in the region of Mount Imeon. It is
known that they lived there as early as 7th-6th century BC. The name
Utis is mentioned by the Greek historian Herodotus among the peoples
that lived the eastern most parts of the Persian Empire at the
foothills of Mount Imeon. A thousand years later, the Byzantine
historian Agatius Mirinei indicates another people at the same place
naming it Utigurs, one of the well-known Bulgarian tribes. According to
Agatius, the Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Vurugunds (probably Unogundurs)
inhabited the lands on this side of Mount Imeon in Asia. Probably, this
information is not misleading because even today a large tribe called
Uts lives in the valleys of Hindukush in Afghanistan. The same name,
Uts, is borne today by one of the tribes of the Kurds and by a small
Caucasus people in Dagestan (called Uts in Caucassus and Udins in
Russian).
The Paktis, neighbours of the ancient Utis and
Utigurs, inhabit the northern slopes of Mount Imeon today. They are
called Pakto or Pashto (this is the name that the present-day Afghans
call themselves). Other neighbours of the ancient Bulgarians are also
known. They were the Sogdis, a large and powerful people with its own
kingdom and script that inhabited the eastern parts of Mount Imeon.
Their trade colonies reached as far as China. The Byzantine Emperor,
Ustinian I, learned the secret of breeding the silkworm from the
Sogdians. A distant descendant of this great people is the small Pamyr
tribe, Jagnobs, which still lives in the valley of the river
Jagnob-Darja.
The Horesmians, another great people mentioned in
the ancient Armenian chronicles as a neighbour of the Bulgarians, lived
to the north of the Sogdians. They were tradesmen famous for their
script and high culture. Their wealth was related to the fact that
through the lands the route of the trade in gems and precious stones,
which were extracted in Mount Imeon and transported north, passed.
In
ancient times, the Bulgarians were also in close contact with the
Indians who lived to the south of the Old Bulgarian fatherland.
According to the “Machabharate”, the ancient Indian epic, the
Bulgarians participated in the great Indian war as allies of the Indian
royal clan, the Kauravs, and famed themselves as brave warriors on
horseback.
What are the common features, peculiarities and
achievements of the large peoples that were neighbours of the ancient
Bulgarians? Firstly, they all spoke languages, which belonged to the
East-Iranian (Indoeuropean) type. This is true about the Masagets, the
Alans who sprang from them and whose descendants were the Osetins in
Caucasus, the Saks, Sogdis, Utis, Paktis and Horemsians. Their written
monuments are the object of a special branch of Iranian Studies –
Middle-Iranian Linguistics. Another general feature of all neighbours
of the ancient Bulgarians is the fact that most of them had strong
states and were occupied with trade.
The Armenian geography
“Ashharatsuits” says the following: “In Skitia [Central Asia] there are
five countries, of which the Sogdiana and Sakastan are known. These two
regions are inhabited by up to 15 peoples which are rich craftsmanship
and trade peoples living in the space between Turkestan and Iran in the
foothills of Mount Imai (Imeon), amongst whom there exist 43 nomadic
tribes. Of the 15 peoples, one is called Massagets, after it comes the
the Bulh people [Bulgarians], and after it to the north-west come the
Horesmians where in the Tur region the Horesmian Stone is extracted as
well as the best Serdolik. Of the 43 tribes, one is called Heptal [the
Huns-Eftalits], another is Alhon, the third is Valhon, and the rest of
them bear such barbaric names that it is not worth mentioning them”.
From
this source, it is evident that the ancient Bulgarians were positioned
near Mount Imeon in a varied and complex surrounding of peoples. The
fact that they used to live in that particular region of the world is
obvious even from their name. The Pamyr word “bulhor” means Bulgarian,
a citizen of Bulgaria, in all the languages of the region. The use of
the Pamyr form of the name of the Bulgarians in the “Ashharatsuits”
shows that the Armenian writers got their information from a reliable
and authentic source. That is why the picture presented by them is a
valuable asset for throwing some light on the ancient history of the
Bulgarians.
As is seen from the Armenian chronicles, the
Bulgarians played a remarkable role among the peoples near the Pamyr
and Hindukush and participated actively in the creation of the ancient
Pamyr ciilisation.
In
brief : The first contacts between the Bulgarian and the Armenian
peoples had been made in those distant times that make difficult to
distinguish between legends and reality. However, reliable sources
present grounds to affirm that they date back not later II c. AD and
their territory of contacts had been not only the land of historical
Armenia and Bulgaria, but also the steppes of Northern Caucasus and
Volga region, Asia Minor and the Balkan peninsula.
This post has been edited by Phrygian: Sep 14 2005, 23:32
--------------------
To conclude, we would like to emphasize that
the Armenian people – both in Armenia and in the European Diaspora –
regards itself as a European people. This people was separated from the
main European stream by unfortunate historical circumstances and is now
resolutely committing to an in-depth reunification with the European
family.
European Armenian Convention Declaration 19 October 2004, Brussels
When in Rome, do as the Romans do
Discrimino, Ergo Sum!
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 20:58
Is that enough?
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 21:02
The Ancient Bulgarians from Imeon and their Neighbours 03.2001 Senior Research Associate Dr. Peter Dobrev, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
Near
Mount Imeon (present day Pamyr and Hindukush), the most ancient
Bulgarian land, one of the earliest agricultural civilisations of the
East developed 4000-5000 years ago. It is evident from the preserved
sources that the Bulgarians and their neighbouring peoples were related
to this civilisation. Historical science did not possess any concrete
facts about that for a long time. A valuable hand-written copy of the
ancient Armenian geography “Ashharatsuits” has been found recently. In
it, the Bulgarians are mentioned among the 15 old trade and
craftsmanship peoples, which inhabited the area between Persia and
Turkestan in the foothills of Mount Imeon. In the text, the name of the
Bulgarians is mentioned second among the peoples listed which means
that they were among the most outstanding and respected ethnic groups
in the region. Besides them, some of the ancient Huns, whom the
Armenian historians describe as a backward, undeveloped tribe, lived
near Mount Imeon.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 22:21
And this is official from Wikipedia, if You thing I try to rewrite the history.
Eremian, Suren. http://www.kroraina.com/armen_ca/map_casia_b.jpg - Reconstructed map of Central Asia from ‘Ashharatsuyts’.
Shirakatsi, Anania, The Geography of Ananias of Sirak (Asxarhacoyc): The Long and the Short Recensions. Introduction, Translation and Commentary by Robert H. Hewsen. Wiesbaden: Reichert Verlag, 1992. 467 pp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9783882264852 - ISBN 9783882264852
Bakalov, Georgi. http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20ot%20drugi%20avtori/Bakalov-1.htm - Little known facts of the history of ancient Bulgarians . Science Magazine. Union of Scientists in Bulgaria. Vol. 15 (2005) Issue 1. (in Bulgarian)
Dimitrov, Bozhidar. Bulgarians and Alexander of Macedon. Sofia: Tangra Publishers, 2001. 138 pp. (in Bulgarian) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9549942295 - ISBN 9549942295
Dobrev, Petar. Unknown Ancient Bulgaria. Sofia: Ivan Vazov Publishers, 2001. 158 pp. (in Bulgarian) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9546041211 - ISBN 9546041211
US Department of State. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3236.htm - Background Note: Bulgaria. Historical Highlights.
Fries, Lorenz and Claudius Ptolemy. http://www.sanderusmaps.com/antique-maps/europe/balkans--hungary-rumania-bulgaria-bosphorus_5876.cfm - Tabula IX. Europae . In: Servetus, Michael. Opus Geographiae. Lyon, 1535.
Germanus, Nikolaus and Claudius Ptolemy. http://earth.unibuc.ro/images/80.jpg - Geographia . Ulm: Lienhart Holle, 1482. (fragment)
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------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 22:27
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 23:49
Balkh-Aryan
I jut became angry, because the same pan-turkists, that was disscussing with You, are trying to explane me that actually, I am not bulgarian.
Bulgars being Turkic is accepted by most historians, its not just a pan-Turkist theory, infact the only people with a problem regarding Bulgars being Turkic is some people from Bulgaria.
Balkh-Aryan
"You - the bulgarian was lost your identity, culture and language (You can check previous messages), I became angry, because there was not any arguments.
Why are you offended?
Bulgarians don't speak Bulgar, they speak Slavic.
Could you explain the links between the historic Bulgars and modern day Bulgarians, many Bulgarians on this forum have often stated there isn't much of a connection.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 12:35
Yes some people of Bulgaria, because we (not all of us) knows exactly who do we are. This historians You quoted are outdated. The modern day historians who are specialist of "the Bulgarian problem" in historiography don't claim that. I explained yet many times why the bulgarians don't speek slavic, and even Sarmat 12 understood my explanations and agreed my arguments. This with the combination of fact that we don't speek turkic language make your old fashioned theory too unverifiable. Today's bulgarian language (especially the dialects) is not too different of the medieval bulgarian and it is not turkish. If it is not turkish, and sure not slavish, so what kind is this language? If this language shows a lot of relations with the thracian and tocharian the answer is come alone. On the other hand, this mythical "slavish sea", which was "set a task" to assimilate the proto-bulgarians, obviously didn't exist really, because it is presented in the genetic fond of the bulgarian nation only with 14,7 %. The turanic percentage is about 5 %. ,. There is about 10 % dinaric (ilirian) presence, and 5 % nordic (scandinavian ?)one - as the turanian, which is strange. But the eastern-mediteranean type is presented bu more than 60 %, and that explains everything. This my fellow-countrymen, which you was talked with, are not guilty that they don't know their own origin. More than one century we was learned the altaic theory of our origin as a truth. I will explain to You (again) with a great pleasure the relations between not only proto-bulgarian and today's bulgarian languages, but also with the thracian language as You wish. I hope after that your questions will be only technical, because I am too tired yet to explain again and again one and the same things and became nervous. Thracian text: "Rolistene, az Nerenea te ltea, a razea(n?) do men ti lezi(sh?). P'tami ye razilta." analize: Rolisten (a thracian personal name) + e (vocative, non tippical for the most languages, except the bulgarian and some caucasian and pamirian languages) az (a tipical bulgarian personal pronoun of a first gender in the singular - "I/me". again non tippical for the most of languages) Nerenea (a thracian personal name, is this case - the widow of the buried in who's grave is find the inscribed ring ) te (a tippical bulgarian personal pronoun of a second gender in the singular - "You". also similar to slavic form "tebe/tebyq", but vissible different.) ltea (bulgarian word "tleya" in metatheses form - "smoulder/wither away/languish/pine away". All the same, this is after more than 1500 years. ) po (bulgarian "po" - "on, over, for , because of") teb (bulgarian "teb" - "you/your") a (bulgarian "a" - "and/but") razea (-n) (bulgarian "s-razen/ po-razen" - "crushed/ strucken") do (bulgarian "do" - "by/beside/near/next to") men (bulgarian "men" - "me/mine") ti (bulgarian "ti" - "you") lezi (sh?) (bulgarian "lezjish" - "(are) lying") p'tami (bulgarian "patya mi/ patya ni" - "(the) way/ road of us") ye (bulgarian "e", dialect "ye" - "is") razilt-a (bulgarian "razdelen" - "separated/devided")
The word order is exactly as in the bulgarian language.
This thracian ring is find near to the village of Ezerovo, near to Parvomay. It is dated about Vi -V century B.C.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 12:56
Balkh-Aryan, I've seen many attempts to translate that text, probably up to two dozens or so.
On your attempt I remark the following:
- the text of the inscription is misread (in continuous text it is: ρολιστενεασνερενεατιλτεανησκοαραζεαδομεαντιλεζυπταμιηεραζηλτα).
- some linguistic considerations are flawed: (e.g. vocative in -e can be found in Latin or Greek)
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 12:58
Proto-bulgarian writings: "Zenti aso e' analize: Zent + i (a bulgarian tippical old name "Dzjendo" + "i" (vocative)) aso (proto-bulgarian "as" + "-o" - "ash" + "the", typical for bulgarian language back-ordered definite article) e (bulgarian "e" - "is")
"Ohsi chit magile" analize: Ohs + i (a proto-bulgarian personal name Ohs/Osh, of tipical east iranian origin, + "i" (vocative) chit (bulgarian "po-chit-ai/za-chit-ai" - "honour/respect/keep" in the imperative mood magile (bulgarian "mogila" (sepulchral/funeral) - "mound/ tumulus")
Is that enough? because there is a lot more proto-bulgarian writings, all of the same type. Do You think this words and its grammar are turkish or slavish? Do You want more proves?
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 13:01
Of course, there is a similarities with the greek and latin languages. Exactly this I am trying to tell You. It is an Indo-aryan language.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 13:03
ops... I forgot: dugetoigi (bulgarian dialect form "dugetoi(h)" + "gi" - " (I was)give" + "this")
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 13:04
Sorry, my daughter force me to use the computer...
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 13:09
Of course, there is a similarities with the greek and latin languages. Exactly this I am trying to tell You. It is an Indo-aryan language.
It is well-known Thracian was an IE language, having thus possible links with Greek or Latin, but also with Baltic, Slavic, Germanic or other IE languages or language families. But Thracian language and modern Bulgarian are not the same language. Thus it is wrong to read a Thracian inscription like a text in Bulgarian.
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 13:48
O.K., I am here again. I apologize, because i quoted the thracian text by my memory. Actually, the full text is: "Rolistene, az Nerenea te lteya nisko, a razea(n) do men ti lezi(s). P'tami ye razilta.", where "nisko" is the same bulgarian "nisko", which means "down there" (word for word - "low"). That's all guys. Any other questions?
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 13:51
Sorry, but relations with the bulgarian language are much more. I quoted this text just because of the grammar. There is too many relations in the lexical fond, more than the greek, latin, slavic, baltic and others.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 14:11
As I already pointed out, the text is misread. In Latin script the text would be something like "rolisteneasnereneatilteaneskoarazeadomeantilezuptamieerazelta". This reading should be obvious for anyone, perhaps less for "eta" and "upsilon" for which I prefered a transliteration closer to their value in early Greek than in modern Greek. On the other hand, it's very probable Greek and Thracian did not have the same sounds and thus some of the Greek letters or even group of letters may only represent a conventional graphic representation for a Thracian sound. But if there are such cases they must be first justified and then replaced in the transliteration of the text.
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 14:56
thracian language & bulgarian language: (A lot of these words are common to the slavs and bulgarians, which once more shows, that proto-bulgarians was more related to the slavs (non being slavs), than to the turks.
ak - oko ( an eye) an - na (on) arz - "ars/arsh/argh",proto-bulg. (white) asdule - ezdach/ yazdil (a horseman) atla (stream) - tla-ka (where the stream is stopped) auza (daybreak)- ozaryava illuminate)/ zora (a daybreak) bas (shining) - pesh(t) (an oven/ furnace) bebru - bobar (a beaver) bela - bel/ bela/ belo/ beli/ byal/ byala/ byalo/ beli (white) bend (dam) - za-bent-vam (make a dam) berg - breg/ bryag (a coast/ sea-shore...) bersa - breza (a birch) bis - vis, mediev. bulg. (a village) bistra-s - biist'r, med. bulg. (fast/ quick...) bithu-s (a creator) - bit (a way of life)/ potomak (descendent) bos/ bus (a light/ a glory/ a power) - Bog (a God)/ boji (god's) breda-s - bred (a place of graze) bria - riye (a town, tocharian) bruz - br'z, mediev. bulg. bul (a tribe/ a clan) - balkh-aryan (the tribe of aryan) bur a man) - bare ("on attack" as a symbol of manliness)/ pra-moch (the supreme man) burta (a bog/ slough...) - brod (a ford) buth (an offshoot/ a descendent/ a child) - see above "pot-om-ak"/ "bit" buza (a he-goat) - bozaya (to suck a milk from the mother's breast) de - ze-mya (an earth) dama - dom ( a home) daru (rampant/ ungovernable) - dar-zak (a dare one) deba - deva, mediev. bulg. (a virgin/ a maiden) dein - deen ( active one) derz - see above darzak (a dare one) Di - Devu, mediev. bulg. and east. iranian (a God) diz (a castle) - zid-am (to bulid/ to construct), also in sumerian "zidu" drap (a flow) - drap-am (to scratch) drin (thrice/ three times over) - troen (a third one) drume - druma, mediev. bulg. (a bushes/ scrub) dune - diuna (dune)
This examples are only from "A" to "D". After a while I will post the next.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 15:47
Thracian -dava/-deva points very likely to some kind of settlement/fortification, no semantic relation with "virgin, maiden". Several words you mention there are unattested, I assume they are the creation of some Bulgarian protochronists.
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 18:19
e-bis - vech-en/ vech-na/ vech-no (an eternal/ forever) ebru ( wide/ broad...) - edar (large/ big) esb/ ezb - asp-a, iranian (a horse); see above "ezda/ ezdach/ yazdya" gaidr (joyful/ delight) - gaita (I sing)/ gaidar (a musician on . instr. "gaida"); see sanscr. gaiya (life) geil - zjila (a tendon/ sinew/ vein...), probably old variant is "gheila" germ (hot/ warm) - gram (a thunder/ a flash)
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 18:24
No, You are wrong. "Daba/Deba" as a term for fortifications is a dacian word. the thracian term for fortification is "Diza". It is somehow non expectable the presence of the toponim "Pulpudava" (Phylipopolis/ Filibe/ Plovdiv - my home town). it is the only one that kind of toponim southern then the Balkan mountain. In the thracian language "dava/deva" means exactly "a virgin/ a maiden" as in the iranian languages.
------------- UPDATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE
Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 18:48
No, You are wrong. "Daba/Deba" as a term for fortifications is a dacian word. the thracian term for fortification is "Diza". It is somehow non expectable the presence of the toponim "Pulpudava" (Phylipopolis/ Filibe/ Plovdiv - my home town). it is the only one that kind of toponim southern then the Balkan mountain. In the thracian language "dava/deva" means exactly "a virgin/ a maiden" as in the iranian languages.
There's no attested Thracian word "dava/deva" meaning "a virgin, a maiden". Many of the Thracian words you list there are not-existent, I assume they are invented by Bulgarian nationalists in order to shift the Turkic linguistic heritage to a Thracian/IE one.
For some scholars Thracian and Dacian were distinct languages, for some Dacian is merely a dialect of Thracian. What's though to be noticed is that there is not one, but two exceptions south of Balkan mountains. One is Pulpudeva, the other is Thermidava (in today Albania, mentioned by Ptolemy). The other suffixes common in Thracian settlements are: -para, -bria, -diza, -dina. But what's worth noticing is that a lot of the -dava/-deva toponyms are placed in today Bulgaria, while not so many of the -diza toponyms (many of them are located in today Turkey).
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 19:05
Thrakian language & Bulgarian language (continuation):
istra (mighty/ turbulent/ impetuous) - struya (spout)/ u-strem-yavam se (rush/ dash...) ka-byle - bla-to (marsh-land) kara - gora (wood/ forest); in the slavic languages "gora" means "a mountain" k(e)ila-s - zjela-n (desired/ wished for...), probably the old form was "ghela(-n) kenth(-a) - chedo/ mediev. bulg. chendo ((my) child), from old indo-aryan "(s-)ken-to" kers(-a) - cher-en/ dialect. form cher (black) ketri - chetiri/ dial. form chet'ri (four) kist - chist (clean/ pure/ native) kup-sel(-a) - kub-che (a cube) kut (glorious) - see kut-rig-ur, proto-bulg. (the people of the possessor); see mediev. bulg. kut/ kat > kunt/ kant (home/ possession) -le - re (inflexion for a population, for example "blaga-re" = "bulgar-ians") lazi - losh (bad/ evil/ nasty/ worse/ vicious...) ma-/ -me - mai-ka/ ma-ma (mother/ mummy) mara (big/ large/ great) - mer/ -mir (inflexion for a kingliness, for example Mala-mir/ Theodo-mir...; old iranian suffix), in slavic languages it means "world" and also "peace" mez (stallion) - mez-ka/mas-ka (dialect. form for "a donkey"/ "mule")
I am obliged to say that the greek, albanian and romanian languages are kept a lot of these words. I don't know more or less than the bulgarian language, but really a lot.
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 19:10
You are wrong again, just because You don't trust me. All of these words are from the scripts, written on the greek letters, and translated on greek or latin language. I took it from the official sources, and You can check it all. By the way, here I post only the word which have a relation with the bulgarian language. There is a lot which have no relation or with too distant remote, because of the common Indo-aryan origin.
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 19:21
paibe (a child/ a son) - bebe (baby) pes ( a boy/ a son) - pich (dialect. & jargon form for guy/ men) pi - pri (at/ near by/ close to/ to...) pleist (mostly/ predominantly/ growing elder) - porast-nal (growing elder) rask ( fast/ queek) - ryazak (abrupt/ jerky...) res - rugh/ rig/ rih... (a king); see the assyrian "shur = rih", latin "rex", celt. "rix", got. "rih", engl. "royal"
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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 19:27
I'd say I'm quite familiar with ancient Balkan inscriptions and the ancient sources and also with the modern lexicons built on them and there are many inacurracies and invented terms, forms and meaning in your lexicon.
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 19:32
sabadi - svoboden (free)/ svoboda (a freedom) sak (a power) - see dialect. form sakam, today's iskam (I want) salt - zlato/ zlaten (gold/ golden) sauzu - suh (dry) semele - see mediev. bulg. zemlya, today's zemya (an earth/ a land/ a country) skapt - ra-zkop-an (dig/ excavated) spinth - svetya (to shine) stara - star (old) stryme - see above stremya se/ struya... suetul - svetal/ svetul (light/ bright/ fair...)
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 19:33
Obviously, You are not very familiar with this inscriptions.
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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 19:36
I'm sure you can prove me wrong by showing me those inscriptions I'm not familiar with. Let's start with the one which proves the Thracians said "deva" to "virgin, maiden".
Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 19:56
Sorry. it was necessary to escape from the forum for a while. In fact, I am too glad to talk at last with someone, who is familiar with this case. Thank You, Chibudios!
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 19:57
O.K. I will do it immediately.
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 20:04
Originally posted by brunodam
Very interesting post. But a bit confusing with too many data. Anyway here it is a website about the history of the Bulgars: http://www.hunmagyar.org/turan/tatar/bulgar.html - www.hunmagyar.org/turan/tatar/bulgar.html
This is a totaly anti-scientific and false site, full of lies and fancies.
As a Vlach from northern Bulgaria (near Vidin) I will try to answer your questions
Aren't you calling yourself Romanians?
Bulgars, Tocharians, Cimmerians and Thracians are the same peoples or linked? incredible, I've never heard of such a theory I hope you can proove it.
Is fancy. Bulgars were Turcik language people, Cimmerians were Iranian, Thracians were an independant linguistic branch.
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 20:41
Dear Balkh_Aryan, unfortunately 90% of the words you posted are Slavic all these words you can find not only in Russian but also in Polish, Czech and other Western Slavic languages (where Bulgarian influence was minimum).
I don't see how can one possible establish any Thracian, Iranian etc. connection there. This is a pure fantazy.
I don't mean anything bad but it reminds me of the attempt of one crazy Russian neo "historian" to prove that Etruscans were Russians (of course etRuscans !). According to him even the disc of Festus also represents the earliest form of Russian language.
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 20:46
I just try to apologize I have not a greek's alphabet on my PC, so I will write using the latinian one. The variant "dea/ deba" is really borrowed in the thracian language from dako-moessian, in meaning "town", but "town of the maiden". I don't know why and how. But in fact from the Samothracian writings is reconstructed form "Da-was" (from DAIIA), which is probably in third personal singular from "Demeter Iuves" (from old indo-aryan "yu-a-t/ Yuo/ iuvo") - "The divine Demetra" (by the way the samothracian writings call her also DENA/ DINA), and bearing in mind it is Demetra - the goddess of fertility, maybe this is a comparatively reasonable explanation of this "virgin/ maiden", even we know well she wasn't any virgin. If she was, how she could be the goddess of fertility? So, this is my explanation. may be it is not perfect, but this is I know. Anyway it is not a product of the brain of some crazy bulgarian linguist. Sorry if my answer don't satisfied you.
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 20:54
If we accept this words are slavish, why they exist in the albanian? I will not ask about the romanian, because it is clear that in romanian was a slavic influence. Logic: how this words can be slavish if they are in the thracian language, which is much more old? Why do You sure in the polish, czech and etc. wasn' t bulgarian influence? Did You forget about Cyril and matodius? This words are in solution by the linguists. I can not debating with them. Can You? So, if some words existed in the slavic languages, don't hurry up to determine them as a slavish words. Have You got any documents showed which language was spoken by the slavish before 6th century?
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 20:58
No, I don't think the etruscians was russian. At first the term "Russ" is sarmatian one, but not scandinavian or slavish. About the etruscians you can see the books of academic Vladimir Georgiev. He is may be one of the best linguists ever.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 21:13
Albanian bears. Slavic influence as well. But could you please show that all the words you posted do have Albanian equivalents?
Honestly, I just think it makes much more sense that those words are originally Slavic, but not borrowings from Anciant Bulgar language.
Of course Russians are not Etruscans, I just cited that theory like another fantazy.
Finally, I have to say that Rus definetely has Germano/Scandinavian origins this is an accepted fact. Rus is just the name which was used for vikings in Arabic and Buzantine chronicles it doesn't relate to Sarmatians.
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 21:14
Hi, Menumorut1 I have something interesting for You. It is impossible to explain how exactly the gets became a gemanian tribe/ gots? Because the gottic writers them selves called their people GETI. I meen Jordanes, Enodius, Casiodorus and etc. "got's" writers. Is this also fancy?
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Posted By: Balkh-Aryan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 21:19
The most of this words have albanian equivalents. even they had have not, this don't change the fact this words was used by the ancient thracians. long before the science to hear about the slavic. The term "Ross" have not a scandinavian origin, because the first mentiones of "Ross" are about 2 centuries before the scandinavian expansion. Actually, this is the most important argument of adherents of the "slavish teory" of "Ross".
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 21:24
Originally posted by Sarmat12
I don't see how can one possible establish any Thracian, Iranian etc. connection there. This is a pure fantazy.
Ants, a slavonic tribe, was archeologically proven to be mixed with Sarmats -- hence Iranian words in Slavic language (f.e. Bog = God etc.)
I don't mean anything bad but it reminds me of the attempt of one crazy Russian neo "historian" to prove that Etruscans were Russians (of course etRuscans !). According to him even the disc of Festus also represents the earliest form of Russian language.
There is American archeologist of Romanian origin (Florin Curta) suggesting that Slavonic language was lingua franca in Avar khanate and it originated in lower Danube. This can explain most of influences. He is very far from being crazy
Wish You Well!
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