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Rugendas

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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the Americas
Forum Discription: The Americas: History from pre-Colombian times to the present
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Topic: Rugendas
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Rugendas
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 02:31
Johann Maurice (or Mauricio, for us) was a famous traveller and painter born in Germany, who made portraits of South American people and events in early 19th century.
 
He is venerated as an heroe for people of several countries of South America. I will show you why in his painting. First a brief bio and then the actual pictures.
 
 
BIOGRAPHY:
 
Johann Moritz Rugendas (b. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_29 - March 29 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1802 - 1802 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg - Augsburg , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany - Germany ; d. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_29 - May 29 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1858 - 1858 ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weilheim - Weilheim , Germany), was a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_people - German painter, famous for his works depicting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landscape - landscapes and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnography - ethnographic information in several countries in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas - Americas , in the first half of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_century - 19th century .

Rugendas was born to the seventh generation of a family of noted painters and engravers of Augsburg (he was a grandson of http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Georg_Philipp_Rugendas&action=edit&redlink=1 - Georg Philipp Rugendas , 1666-1742, a noted painter of battles), and studied drawing and engraving with his father, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Johann_Lorenz_Rugendas_II&action=edit&redlink=1 - Johann Lorenz Rugendas II (1775-1826). From 1815 to 1817 he studied with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht_Adam - Albrecht Adam (1786-1862), and later in the Academy de Arts of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich - Munich , with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lorenzo_Quaglio_II&action=edit&redlink=1 - Lorenzo Quaglio II (1793-1869).

Inspired by the artistic work of http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thomas_Ender&action=edit&redlink=1 - Thomas Ender (1793-1875) and the travel accounts in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropics - tropics by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria - Austrian naturalists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Baptist_von_Spix - Johann Baptist von Spix (1781-1826) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Friedrich_Philipp_von_Martius - Carl von Martius (1794-1868), Rugendas arrived in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil - Brazil in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1821 - 1821 , where he was soon hired as an illustrator for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_von_Langsdorff - Baron von Langsdorff 's scientific expedition in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minas_Gerais - Minas Gerais and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Paulo - São Paulo . Langsdorff was the general consul of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire - Russian Empire in Brazil and had a farm in the northern region of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_de_Janeiro - Rio de Janeiro , where Rugendas went to live with other members of the expedition. In this capacity, Rugendas visited the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serra_da_Mantiqueira - Serra da Mantiqueira and the historical towns of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbacena - Barbacena , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A3o_Jo%C3%A3o_del_Rei - São João del Rei , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana - Mariana , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouro_Preto - Ouro Preto , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caet%C3%A9 - Caeté , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabar%C3%A1 - Sabará and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Luzia - Santa Luzia .

Just before the fluvial phase of expedition started (a fateful travel to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Basin - Amazon ) he got stranged from von Langsdorff, left the expedition and was substituted by artists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrien_Taunay - Adrien Taunay and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9rcules_Florence - Hércules Florence . However, Rugendas remained on his own in Brazil until 1825, exploring and recording his many impressions of daily life in the provinces of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mato_Grosso - Mato Grosso , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernambuco - Pernambuco , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahia - Bahia , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esp%C3%ADrito_Santo - Espírito Santo and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_de_Janeiro - Rio de Janeiro . He used mostly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawing - drawings and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watercolor - watercolors .

Returning to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe - Europe between 1825 and 1828, Rugendas lived successively in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris - Paris , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg - Augsburg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich - Munich , with the aim of learning new http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art - art techniques, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_painting - oil painting .. There, he published from 1827 to 1835, with the help of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Aim%C3%A9_Huber - Victor Aimé Huber , his monumental book Voyage Pittoresque dans le Brésil (Picturesque Voyage to Brazil), with more than 100 illustrations, which is, to this day, one of the most important documents about Brazil in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_century - 19th century . He also studied in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy - Italy , visiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisa - Pisa , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence - Florence , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome - Rome , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples - Naples , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice - Venice and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily - Sicily .

Inspired again by a noted explorer and naturalist, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Humboldt - Alexander Humboldt (1769-1859), to whom he was introduced once, Rugendas sought financial support for a much more ambitious project of recording pictorially the life and nature of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America - Latin America ; in his words, an endeavour to truly become the illustrator of life in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World - New World . In 1831 he travelled first to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti - Haiti , and then to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico - Mexico in 1831. He began to use oil painting there, with excellent results. Unfortunately, Rugendas was incarcerated and expelled from the country after he involved himself with a failed coup against Mexico's president, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasio_Bustamante - Anastasio Bustamante , in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834 - 1834 .

From 1834 to 1844 he travelled to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile - Chile , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina - Argentina , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay - Uruguay , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peru - Peru and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia - Bolivia , and finally went back to Rio de Janeiro, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1845 - 1845 . Well accepted and feted by the court of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_II_of_Brazil - Emperor Dom Pedro II , he executed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portraits - portraits of several members of the royal court and participated in an artistic exposition.

In 1846, with 54 years of age, Rugendas departed to Europe, never again to return to Latin America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_II_of_Bavaria - King Maximilian II of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria - Bavaria acquired most of his works in exchange for a life pension. His painting "Columbus taking Possession of the New World" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1855 - 1855 ) is on view at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neue_Pinakothek - Neue Pinakothek , in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich - Munich . He died in eight years later, in penury.

Rugendas:
 
 
Customs of Rio
 
Slave hunter (Brazil)
 
 
Indians in a farm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Indians-farm.jpg">Image:Indians-farm.jpg
 
Another Brazilian scene
 
 
Punishment of slaves
 
 
The Malon (Mapuches robbing women to Chileans)
 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Mauricio_rugendas_-_el_malon.jpg">Image:Mauricio%20rugendas%20-%20el%20malon.jpg
 
Brazilian Indian
 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Rugendas_indiobotocudo.gif">Image:Rugendas%20indiobotocudo.gif
 
Chilean cowboy and lady
 
 
A celebration (Chile)
 
Hacienda owner
 
Old Santiago
 
 
 
 
 



Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 02:49
An interesting set of pictures of Brazil, of Rugendas and other painters, that the poster "Bandeirante" published elsewhere.
 
 


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Posted By: Bandeirante
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 17:09
Very interesting paintings from Rugendas in Chile, Pinguin. Vey nice too. Poor women ! It would not happen here in Brazil without a terrible vengeance against the Indians. The Brazilian pics are from different artists, not only from Rugendas ! I have far more that I can show later.
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:01
Yes Bandeirante. But Mapuche Indians weren't not like Amazonians at all.
 
They were extremely well organized people that rode horses and also had guns! 
 
No kidding. They would have crashed Bandeirantes as ants, and I am serious about that. Mapuches were the best Indian fighters in South America and probably in all the Western Hemisphere. They attacked "whites" because of revenge. Spanish were brutes against Mapuches and produced continious revenges between both groups during centuries. Many times Spaniards (or Hispanics) lost.
 
The Spanish Army got tired of fighting against them. Only the Chilean and Argentinean modern armies of late 19th century could occupy theirs land.
 


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Posted By: Bandeirante
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 23:09
Pinguin, do you own historical allegiance to the Mapuches or to the Colonial Chileans ? 
The Bandeirantes were successfully used to  fight all kind of Indian tribes, Black runaway Quilombolas and Northern European troops. They were beaten several times in different places but they would ever return to exterminate the enemies and conquer new territories. I think the Guaicurus and Paiaguas that defeated the Castilians and Paraguayans and blocked the Spanish advance to Mato Grosso can be an interesting comparative case because the Bandeirantes had a very specific locally developed kind of American warfare to defeat both Guaicurus and Paiaguas and later establish alliances in order to conquer Mato Grosso while the Spanish Empire had one of the best rivers of the world as a passageway and the Bandeirantes had to move from almost 2000 km inland to get there. I think the Bandeirantes would tame the Mapuches if they were called there as the Bandeirantes were called to exterminate the big Quilombo dos Palmares and the Cariri Indians in the Brazilian Northeast, Guaicuru, Paiaguas, Bororo, Caiapo and several other groups, including the Dutch WIC soldiers in the 1630-1654 War.
You were lucky to be away from the Bandeirantes, they could be hardly defeated in a journey thousands of kilometers from São Paulo but they would bite a chunk of your people and territory.
 
O historiador Sérgio Buarque de Holanda (1902-1982) relata em "Caminhos e Fronteiras" a fama das gentes de São Paulo pelo país afora. O capitão Juan Francisco Aguirre (1758-1811), comissário enviado pela Espanha para demarcar as fronteiras com Portugal, anotou em seu diário que "o nome de paulista é assombroso para os infiéis, que lhes cobraram um terror pânico" (infiéis, no caso, eram os índios). Rodrigo César de Menezes, governador de São Paulo entre 1721 e 1727, conta que os castelhanos chamavam os paulistas de "feras".
  
 
Cronologia das Bandeiras Paulistas:
Muitas bandeiras foram vitoriosas, outras derrotadas. Muitas trouxeram milhares de escravos índios, ouro e incorporaram novos territórios. Outras foram destroçadas e aniquiladas pelos gentios indígenas bravios, pelos jesuítas, pelos espanhóis, pelas doenças tropicais e pelas bestas da natureza.

1532 - Armada de Martim Afonso de Souza e criação da vila de São Vicente, no litoral.
1554 – Entrada autorizada dos jesuítas em Piratininga e criação do Colégio em São Paulo.
1562 – Defesa de São Paulo, cercada e atacada por índios inimigos. Os índios do litoral brasileiro de origem tupi eram canibais e antropófagos. Ser capturado era ser devorado pelos seus inimigos.
1560-1565 – Guerras no litoral contra os tamoios e seus aliados franceses calvinistas.
1565 - Cerco e início da batalha e assalto ao Rio de Janeiro contra franceses e índios tamoios.
1567 – Conquista Portuguesa do Rio de Janeiro.
1585 - Bandeiras no vale do Rio Tietê.
1602 - Bandeiras Meridionais e incursões contra os guranis no litoral ao Sul de Cananéia, atual litoral paranaense e catarinense
1615 - Paraupava, Brasil Central.
1628-1632 – Destruição das reduções jesuíticas do Guairá, atual Noroeste do Estado do Paraná. 60.000 guaranis capturados. Destruição das povoações espanholas de Ciudad Real e Ontiveros.
1636 – Assalto ao Tape, atual centro do Rio Grande o Sul.
1639 – Participação de bandeirantes nas Guerras Holandesas, Nordeste do Brasil.
1641 Mbororé. Rio Uruguai. Batalha perdida para guaranis e jesuítas armados com pólvora.
1647 Taré
1632 -1648 Itatins, Sul de Mato Grosso. Destruição de Santiago de Jerez, localidade espanhola.
1648-1651. A Bandeira de Antonio Raposo Tavares percorre 12.000 km, desde São Paulo até quase os Andes e encontra os portugueses no Amazonas, retornando de Belém do Pará.
1671 – Bandeiras contra o gentio Anicuns. Conquista de Goiás.
1676 - Amambaí
1683- 1715. Bandeiras contra os índios bárbaros do semi-árido nordestino, grupos cariris.
1694 - Quilombo dos Palmares, litoral nordestino, Alagoas. Recrutados para exterminar levante de escravos negros em uma fortaleza organizada desde as Guerras Holandesas há mais de cinqüenta anos antes.
1708-1709 Emboabas. Derrota dos paulistas em Minas Gerais.
1718 - Conquista do Mato Grosso.
1722 – Bandeirantes descobrem ouro em Goiás.
1725-1744 – Guerra contra o gentio Paiaguá, no Mato Grosso. Excelentes canoeiros e piratas fluviais.
1740-1741 – Guerra contra o gentio Caiapó, os Porrudos e Tapirapé, Goiás, Brasil Central.
1754-1756 – Guerra Guaranítica
1763 – Conquista do Guaporé
1767-1777 Iguatemi. Hostilizado e tomado pelos paraguaios. Reconquistado posteriormente pelos brasileiros.
1720 –1778 - Guerras contra o gentio Guaicuru, um dos mais bravios na América, grandes cavaleiros e assustadoramente tatuados.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 01:29
Originally posted by Bandeirante

Pinguin, do you own historical allegiance to the Mapuches or to the Colonial Chileans ? 
 
To both. As a Chilean I admire Mapuches, that were the first Chileans that fought against the foreign power of Spain.
 
Originally posted by Bandeirante

The Bandeirantes were successfully used to  fight all kind of Indian tribes, Black runaway Quilombolas and Northern European troops. They were beaten several times in different places but they would ever return to exterminate the enemies and conquer new territories.
 
Yes. They were experts in exterminations, mainly against weaker people.
But you can't compare the resistence Tupis, Amazonians or Guaranis put to Bandeirantes with the situation in Chile. It is something completely different.
 
In Chile the Indians addopted very quickly the European tactics of fighting, and fought against Spaniards in the same level.
 
Look at the above picture. One of the armies is Mapuche, and you notice they have horses, flags, pikes and even canons.
 
 
Lautaro, the Mapuche strategist, learn the art of war from Spaniards. He even dresses similar to them. And Mapuches were excellent riders.
 
 
Most of the Spanish soldiers dead during colonial times were killed in Chile. I bet the bands of Bandeirantes, no matter how cruel they could be, they would have been crashed as ants by Mapuches, as they did several times against better prepared armies of the Spaniards.
 
Spaniards expend lot of money in forts to protect the frontier with Mapuche territory, building forts that were often destruyed by Mapuches.
 
As I said before, only modern armies could finally "pacify" Mapuches. Spaniards didn't do it, and it wasn't for lacking cruelty or effort.
 
So, just don't downplay people you really don't know.
 
It is not a coincidence that the most important heroe of Hispanic South American independence was Lautaro, a Mapuche warrior.
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: Bandeirante
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 23:15
Pinguin, Mapuches are Mapuches, they lost the war to the Chileans in the XIX century., Mapuches raged a lost war against the Chileans. If the Mapuches had won they would not be Chileans, they would be another thing. The Bandeirantes were masters in an irregular war, if the Portuguese State had to fight against the Mapuches they would be infiltrated behind the Mapuches' lines and would spread havoc in the Mapuches' territory and there would be naval support and regular formations to crush those tribes while they would be imploded from the inside. Bandeirantes had a special kind of jungle/wooden warfare with special movements in the difficult terrains. Colonial Chileans were very weak because they had never had to fight other Europeans and they were not used to organize war in special conditions. Where were the Mapuches iron/steel/swords/metal and gunpowder mills/factories ? The Portuguese State used to fight Castilians/Moors/Norman French/Cannibal Tribes in Brazil and Africa/Turks in the Indian Ocean/Malays and so on usually successfully to build and keep a World Empire and in Brazil the Bandeirantes were the local spearhead of this Empire used to defeat enemies as AmerindiansGroups/castilians/Jesuits/Dutch WIC Mercenaries that defeated the Spanish Empire in Flandres/Black Quilombos and there it goes. Mapuches were only real enemies to the Colonial Chileans that were a weak and small opponent with bad, dumb and wrong tactics against them.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 00:37
Originally posted by Bandeirante

Pinguin, Mapuches are Mapuches, they lost the war to the Chileans in the XIX century., Mapuches raged a lost war against the Chileans.
.
 
Not really. What happened is that Mapuches tried to make an alliance with France, so theirs territory had to be secured. The final battle was not really a big war, because by that time most Mapuches accepted already an informal Chilean rule.
 
Originally posted by Bandeirante

If the Mapuches had won they would not be Chileans, they would be another thing. The Bandeirantes were masters in an irregular war, if the Portuguese State had to fight against the Mapuches they would be infiltrated behind the Mapuches' lines and would spread havoc in the Mapuches' territory and there would be naval support and regular formations to crush those tribes while they would be imploded from the inside.
.
 
Bandeirante. It amazes me that you think Spaniards didn't try.
 
Originally posted by Bandeirante

Bandeirantes had a special kind of jungle/wooden warfare with special movements in the difficult terrains.
.
 
Mapuche territory is not tropical jungle. That's the difference. It is rain forest, more similar to Germany or the strongholds of the Celts, rather than tropical jungles. It is a different terrain and the strategy was also quite different. It is also a very good terrain to make traps. Mapuches liked to put pikes hidden underground, for instance. When the rider step on them both horse and rider ended traspassed by the pikes...
 
Originally posted by Bandeirante

Colonial Chileans were very weak because they had never had to fight other Europeans and they were not used to organize war in special conditions. 
.
 
Are you crazy? Chile was the capital of fighting piracy in the Pacific. Chile's mission was to protect Peruvian mining, and it did well at that. I bet your sources, dear friend, are terrible wrong.
 
Originally posted by Bandeirante

Where were the Mapuches iron/steel/swords/metal and gunpowder mills/factories ? The Portuguese State used to fight Castilians/Moors/Norman French/Cannibal Tribes in Brazil and Africa/Turks in the Indian Ocean/Malays and so on usually successfully to build and keep a World Empire and in Brazil the Bandeirantes were the local spearhead of this Empire used to defeat enemies as AmerindiansGroups/castilians/Jesuits/Dutch WIC Mercenaries that defeated the Spanish Empire in Flandres/Black Quilombos and there it goes.
.
 
So?
Portugal was dominated by Spain more than once in the times of Colonial Americas.
The Spanish army was stronger than the Portuguese in Europe, at least in the 16th century. And that army was precisely the one that was defeated several times by the Mapuches.
 
Originally posted by Bandeirante

Mapuches were only real enemies to the Colonial Chileans that were a weak and small opponent with bad, dumb and wrong tactics against them.
 
Dear Bandeirante, that only shows your ignorance, , I am afraid. Your brute bands of bandits would have been killed by a better organized people like the Mapuches.
 
Please read anything you can get about the so called "Flandes Indiano" (Flandes of the Indies) and then we continue.
 
It is a pitty that you got no idea what you are talking about, fellow.
 
Valdivia's Spanish forts in ruins, to stop pirates. It was never taken by pirats.
 
A Spanish fort recently found in Patagonia
 
Fuerte%20Puerto%20Deseado
 
Spanish fort Ahui in Chiloe
 
 
Most of the forts in the Araucania (Mapuche territory) were made in wood, though.
 
However, you should know, Bandeirante, that the Spaniards wrote a single epic poem in the Americas, dedicated to the Mapuche. The Araucaniad, published in Salamanca.
 
 
It was written by a Spanish soldier, Alonso de Ercilla, to honor the courage of the strongest Amerindian people the Spanish found in the Americas. The Araucaniad is mentioned by Cervantes in Don Quixote!
 
 
And one main character (and real person) is Lautaro. Our common heroe with the Mapuche people:
 
 
The Araucanians (Mapuches) weren't just a tribe more living in the Americans. They were the best. Perhaps only the Sioux in the U.S. can really compare to them.
 
Bandeirantes defeating Mapuches? Ha! Sorry to laugh about it, but that's funny LOL. By the way, Mapuche tactics are still studied by the militaries.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: Bandeirante
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 16:40
Pinguin, let's agree to disagree
An European society, with modern technologies from the 16/17/18th centuries and being a part of an European Empire not be able to defeat a small tribe in a small territory just side by side ! Weak, disorganized and incompetent Chileans Colonists. Of course the same could be said about Buenos Aires and the South Desert, they were not able to advance 100 km to the South, Assuncion and the North, the big Paraguay River, Santa Cruz de La Sierra in modern Bolivia and Cumaná in modern Venezuela.  Just compare with São Paulo expanding through thousands and thousands of kilometers in all climates and to all directions. The Tupinambás of Rio de Janeiro were more threatening to the Europeans, they used to eat people and had many victories against the Portuguese Colonists, the Tupinambás had the support of the French Colonists and after some decades they were both defeated, exterminated and assimilated. Just go to the map and see where was the Tordesillas Line, look at the distances from São Paulo and the modern Brazilian border. We can't compare São Paulo and the Bandeiras with Santiago do Chile and the local Indians.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 19:48

Originally posted by Bandeirante

Pinguin, let's agree to disagree

An European society, with modern technologies from the 16/17/18th centuries and being a part of an European Empire not be able to defeat a small tribe in a small territory just side by side ! Weak, disorganized and incompetent Chileans Colonists.

 

Dear friend. You are badly informed once again. Mapuches were one of the more numerous peoples in South America. There were as many Mapuches at contact time as Amazonian Indians exist in Brazil today! And all that population was heavily concentrated in the Mapuche region.

 

Originally posted by Bandeirante

 Of course the same could be said about Buenos Aires and the South Desert, they were not able to advance 100 km to the South, Assuncion and the North, the big Paraguay River, Santa Cruz de La Sierra in modern Bolivia and Cumaná in modern Venezuela.  Just compare with São Paulo expanding through thousands and thousands of kilometers in all climates and to all directions.

 

Economics. Brazil needed to more land to bring slaves to work in plantations. The Spanish Empire was financed by mining, mainly silver.

 

Originally posted by Bandeirante

 The Tupinambás of Rio de Janeiro were more threatening to the Europeans, they used to eat people and had many victories against the Portuguese Colonists, the Tupinambás had the support of the French Colonists and after some decades they were both defeated, exterminated and assimilated. Just go to the map and see where was the Tordesillas Line, look at the distances from São Paulo and the modern Brazilian border. We can't compare São Paulo and the Bandeiras with Santiago do Chile and the local Indians.

 

Mapuches weren’t exterminated. They usually exterminated the colones. They enjoyed white women and have a debility for nuns for instance. In any case, the fame of the Mapuches was created by the Spanish armies. They find them more difficult to defeat that many European armies. Spaniards though, unlike Lusitanian sad record of genocide, didn’t exterminate Amerindians, just assimilated them. But with Mapuches they didn’t have a chance.

 

 Comparing the history of Brazil with Hispanic America is absurd. You have to study each situation by separate.



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Posted By: Bandeirante
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 00:11

Pinguin

A big population is only possible with intensive agriculture, metalworking, state, cities and so on. The Mapuches were a relatively small group in a small area, for sure a brave group that could defeat the Castilians and Spaniards for some time, what my tribe could do too forever !
What would attract Europeans to Chile in the Colonial times ? Not many people would adventure in a hostile land without a good apparatus, so the lack of resources and interests of the Spanish Empire there made the Mapuche's life and resistance far easier than in other parts with tough disputes for strategics resources and locations. Sometimes we must relativize our national born mythologies in face of the others perspectives.
All my considerations Pinguin because I like your posts ! 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 02:39
Originally posted by Bandeirante

Pinguin
 
A big population is only possible with intensive agriculture, metalworking, state, cities and so on. The Mapuches were a relatively small group in a small area, for sure a brave group that could defeat the Castilians and Spaniards for some time, what my tribe could do too forever !
 
According to my statistics, Mapuches were circa half million, which was a one of the largest Amerindian population of theirs time. Mapuches practised agriculture, dear Bandeirante.
And I dissagree with the need of cities and large state to stop Spaniards. In fact, the states usually fall easily to Spanish armies, like it happened in Peru and Mexico.
 
Mapuches made a large scale guerrilla war against the Spaniards. The invaders were never sure who was the friend and who the enemy. It was Spain's own Vietnam.
 
 
Originally posted by Bandeirante

What would attract Europeans to Chile in the Colonial times ? Not many people would adventure in a hostile land without a good apparatus,
 
That's true. Chile was a poor colony and produced more expenses than revenues to the Spanish crown. However, for them it was worth for the strategic value to defend the Viceroyalty of Peru: the source of Spain's silver.
 
Originally posted by Bandeirante

so the lack of resources and interests of the Spanish Empire there made the Mapuche's life and resistance far easier than in other parts with tough disputes for strategics resources and locations. Sometimes we must relativize our national born mythologies in face of the others perspectives.
 
As I said before, it wasn't because lack of will that Spaniards suffered so many problems here.
 
Take a look at the War of Arauco.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Arauco - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Arauco
 
Originally posted by Bandeirante

All my considerations Pinguin because I like your posts ! 
 
Absolutely, Bandeirante.
 
 


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