How Xiongnu called themselves?
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Topic: How Xiongnu called themselves?
Posted By: barbar
Subject: How Xiongnu called themselves?
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 22:38
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I know there are countless of topics on Xiongnu or Hun here. Sorry if this has already been addressed somewhere. Wiki is also missing this point. I could have posted it in any related topics. However, Xiongnu being one of the most important group in the history of steppe, I personally think this deserve a new topic.
Although archeological findings suggest Xiongnu used a kind of Runic script, we still lack any direct evidence as for the Xiongnu history from their own words, unlike Kokturk and Uyghurs. We have to rely mainly on Han Chinese Records which had the most concern about this rival group. Actually It is very surprising for me that in Shiji and Hanshu, Xiongnu and Hu were used alternatively for the same group. Actually the term Hu was used just as the pronoun of Xiongnu.
I notice a letter in Hanshu, which was writen by Xiongnu Shanyu to the Han emperor, went like this:
其明年，单于遣使遗汉书云：“南有大汉，北有强胡。胡者，天之骄子也，不为小礼以自烦。今欲与汉闿大关，取汉女为妻.......”
Translation: The other year, Shanyu (King of Xiongnu, Tenriqut) sent a delegate to Han and wrote to say:" In the south great Han, In the north strong Hu. Hu is, proud sons of the heaven, not bother themselves with petty gifts. Now want to open the gate between Han, get the daughter of Han as a wife......
It is quite clear that Xiongnu called themselves Hu. Athough this is a Chinese transliteration, one thing should be clarified that Xiongnu is Chinese degorative naming of Hu. However it's possible that a tribe in the power in Hu confederacy might be Hun (then came Chinese derogarative Xiongnu).
What should be the original term in Hunnic language? I'll live it for open discussion, and give my points accordingly.
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Replies:
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 22:49
You leave us in suspense wise barbar.
The Xiongnu used to be part of a Wu Hu (Five Hu) classification of peoples occupying China's (Han) northern border. These Hu were called barbarians or non-Chinese.
How the terminolgoy of the word Hu came to represent the Xiongnu is a question you can help answer. The Hu may have been called Kun or Hun by the Xiongnu themselves.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 00:27
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Forgive my ignorance,
But are you saying, that you feel this is the direct relationship that names the black and white huns of European history to the Xiongnu of Chinese history?
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 01:10
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Xiongnu are Huns of European history. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης 
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Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 18:07
I believe Xiongnu (Huns/ Guns) called themselves "XYH" originally. So closest chinese transliteration is "Hu"-'XУ"
Most meaningful translation of the word "XYH" is in Mongolian language. "XYH" is mongolian word for "men" "man" "people". Just like inuit people call themselves as "INUIT" which means "man""person" in their language, Huns called themselves "MAN" in their language as "XYH" which still in use in old and modern Mongolian language.
Ps: (then came Chinese derogarative Xiongnu) . I don't think it is derogative term. It is just chinese could say say/ write it. Todays chinese call German's Deguo, French Feguo and it is not considered as derogative term.
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Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 18:11
this word "XYH" is in mongolian cyrillic alphabet. Latin transliteration is "HUN"
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 18:56
The thing is that in ancient Chinese pronouncation it was not Xiong but Hun. I mean the characters are the same but in ancient Chinese they were pronounced as Hun. However, the selection of the Chinese characters itseld is derogatory. Literal translation of Xiongnu means : "Angry Slaves." Chinese have a lot of characters for the words which sound totally similar. So, they were clearly selecting the characters for the name of a particular tribe. For sure they could find character hun or hu with more respectful meaning, yet they elected "Angry Slaves" in order to emphasize Xiongnu "barbarism."
Deguo and Faguo on the contrary have nice meanings: "Country of Morality" and "Country of Law." ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 19:30
Xiongnu didn't speak Mongolian, why should they use a mongolian word as their name?
Using a word meaning "MAN" as the title doesn't make sense for an open society such as Xiongnu.
The letter is quite clear that They called themselves HU. It must be like that Tujue called themselves Turk, and they had a royal clan ASHINA. HU must be a general term while HUN might be a royal clan name.
Question is what is this Chinese HU in Hunnic language?
In this Chinese letter, actually the structure of the sentence including HU is commonly used when defining something. that means:
It can be translated as: "HU are the proud sons of the heaven" or even better "HU means proud sons of heaven."
Can't this give us some clues?
IF we didn't have Kokturk and Uyghur inscriptions, we might still be debating what these Tujue and Huihu called themselves.
Huihu in Chinese documents was Uyghur in Uyghur writings. Hui was meaningful transliteration of Uy, while the Hu was just the transliteration of the Oghur. "Alliances of the Oghurs." In the documents it was claimed many times that "Huihu, ancesters were Xiongnu". The common term for them both were Oghur or ghur.
I'm quite confident to say that HU in Hunnic was Oghur or Ghur.
Now look at those tribal groups in European Huns: Onoghur, Qutoghur, Utoghur etc.
These also can give us further clues.
It was derogative term, the character used for NU means SLAVE. Chinese could transliterate HUN exactly as HUN. Actually they named one of the Uyghur tribes as exactly as HUN.
There are Chinese words like HUN DAN, HUN ZHUO, HUN ZHA .........
I have no doubt Xiongnu came from the word HUN. However it seems to be not the general term Xiongnu refered to themselves.
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 19:42
Exactly, however a few things to clear up. The character Xiong wasn't the one for "ANGRY", it was just the only Character used for XIONGNU. So it must be a simple transliteration.
Deguo and Faguo don't have those meanings actually, although indeed the characters were chosen that way. Originally Deguo was Deyizhi (Deutch) Gongheguo (republic) and Faguo was Falanxi (France) gongheguo (republic), those were abbrivated ones, just like Meiguo, Yinguo etc. Simple transliterations.
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 19:42
how do you know it is a Mongolian word? Mongolian language includes words from other languages such as Khan from Turkic. ------------- |
Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 20:02
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I see. Mongolian "XYH"- HUN is the The name for HUNS. Somehow Mongolians still kept that word in use till now. There must be linguistic connection between donghu> huns> sianbi> kidan> mongol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu
The supposed sound of the first character has a clear similarity with the name "Hun" in European languages. Whether this is evidence of kinship or mere coincidence is hard to tell. It could lend credence to the theory that the Huns were in fact descendants of the Northern Xiongnu who migrated westward, or that the Huns were using a name borrowed from the Northern Xiongnu, or that these Xiongnu made up part of the Hun confederation. The traditional etymology of "匈" is that it is as pictogram of the facial features of one of these people, wearing a helmet, with the "x" under the helmet representing the scars they inflicted on their faces to frighten their enemies. However, there is no actual evidence for this interpretation. In modern Chinese, the character "匈" is used in four ways: to mean "chest" (written 胸 in this sense as the set of Chinese characters evolves), in the name 匈奴 Xiōngnú "Xiongnu", in the word 匈人 Xiōngrén "Hun [person]", and in the name 匈牙利 Xiōngyálì " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary - Hungary ". The last of these is a modern coinage which may derive from the belief that the Huns were related to the Xiongnu.[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed - citation needed ] Hungnu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language - Chinese : 匈奴; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin - pinyin : Xiōngnú; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade-Giles - Wade-Giles : Hsiung-nu);
Xianbei ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_character - simplified Chinese : 鲜卑; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_character - traditional Chinese : 鮮卑; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin - pinyin : Xiānbēi; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade-Giles - Wade-Giles : Hsien-pei)
Donghu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language - Chinese : 东胡; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin - pinyin : Dōnghú),
What is other options on "How Xiongnu called themselves"?
http://web.archive.org/web/20050211184008/www.fortunecity.com/victorian/twain/1279/royalhouse/xianbei/xiongnulanguage.htm - http://web.archive.org/web/20050211184008/www.fortunecity.com/victorian/twain/1279/royalhouse/xianbei/xiongnulanguage.htm
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Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 20:07
That can be another option too. It has to be proven. But Turkic languages have no traces of word HUN. If there is turkic versions, please provide?
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Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 20:23
When you have
we can not say for sure "Xiongnu DIDN'T speak similar language to Mongolian, of course turkic too. Anyway the term Mongol or Turk is used later. Probably Mongolian and Turkic language were not distinct language
http://209.85.173.104/wiki/Hsiung-nu - Hsiung-nu (Xiongnu) were led by a chief called http://209.85.173.104/wiki/Shan-y%C3%BC - shan-yü , whose full title transcribed into http://209.85.173.104/wiki/Chinese - Chinese is Ch'eng-li Ku-t'u Shan-yü, words which the Chinese translate as "Majesty Son of Heaven". In these words may be detected http://209.85.173.104/wiki/Turko-Mongol - Turko-Mongol roots: ch'eng-li in particular is the transcription of the http://209.85.173.104/wiki/Turkic - Turkic and http://209.85.173.104/wiki/Mongol - Mongol word http://209.85.173.104/wiki/T%C3%A4ngri - Tängri , Heaven. http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:wD9k4vF3JM0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu+xiongnu&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us#_note-14 - [15] Ch'eng-li - is http://209.85.173.104/wiki/T%C3%A4ngri - Tängri , Ku-t'u -????Shan-yü-???
what is these words are? I could read. it only SQUAREs in my display?
http://web.archive.org/web/20050211184008/www.fortunecity.com/victorian/twain/1279/royalhouse/xianbei/xiongnulanguage.htm - http://web.archive.org/web/20050211184008/www.fortunecity.com/victorian/twain/1279/royalhouse/xianbei/xiongnulanguage.htm
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 20:56
It's less likely that Mongolian borrow such a basic word from Turkic. Moreover, it doesn't have this meaning in Turkic. For MAN we have "ER", for human we have "KISHI"
The point here is HUN didn't mean MAN as Mongolian, which can be subject to later discussion.
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 21:02
Donghu and Xiongnu (HUN) are two distinct groups, Donghu was called such just because they were in the east of HU. They were not the eastern branch of HU.
Check our discussions here:
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=23214 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=23214
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 21:13
well, i didn't said it was borrowed from Turkic. also, there is no reason to assume that Turks use exactly the same words Xiong-nu used before. also, i think it is greatly logical to assume Hun = man. in german "deutsch" means the people. so if we say in german: we, the "deutsche" = we, the people. so if the Xiongnu said: we, the Hun, it is likely to mean we, the men. in german there was also a tribal name Alamanni which can mean "all men". there was also markomanni = bordermen. i think it is not irrational to believe that they used Hun in this meaning. at leats i wouldn't rule it out so easily. all we are talking about here is guesswork anyways. as you said Chinese can more or less pronounce Turkic names, and Hun sounds more like Mongolian Hun than Oghur/Ghur. there is no R sound in Hun and the Gh sound is not the same as the H sound. ------------- |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 21:13
We do have traces in Turkic.
Hun means Life and Blood,in contemprary Uyghur turkic.
We have another word QAN for blood, JAN for life. All are related to one common root word in mordern and old Turkic: KUN means the SUN.
In ancient Tengrism, SUN together with MOON were considered to be the children of the heaven (sky god).
Let's recollect the words of the XIONGNU Shanyu: "Hu are the proud sons of the Heaven".
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 21:17
BTW, where do you get Tengriqut from? ------------- |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 21:23
It would be more logical to have tribal names with the suffix of "MAN". Among Turkic or European Huns, we did have such tribal names, such as Hazer, Aghachiri etc, with the meaning "People of Something". Only with the meaning with people or man, it's less likely.
I don't correlate OGHUR/GHUR with HUN. Oghur/Ghur is the general term, and HUN is the name of the ruling clan. They both were used by XIONGNU, just as Chinese used HU and Xiongnu alternatively.
I'll touch the meaning of Oghur/Ghur later.
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 21:36
Hanshu, Xiongnu Zhuan:
单于姓挛鞮氏，其国称之曰撑犁孤涂单于’。匈奴谓天为‘撑犁’，谓子为‘孤涂’。单于者，广大之貌也，言其象天单于然也。
Translation: Shanyu, family name is Luandi, it's country call as "Chenglihutushanyu'. Xiongnu call the sky as "Chengli" (Tengri), Call son as "Hutu" (Qut).
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 05:20
This is correct. However what I meant is not the exact translation, but the idea/contiquity which can come to the Chinese mind while looking at these characters.
The Character Xiong in Xiongnu is 匈 as one can see it consists of the 2 elements the one is the middle is actually the character 凶 which means "fierce." When inventing the character for Xiongnu Chinese could find the central element with more noble meaning, there are enough characters which are pronounced the same but have totally different meanings, but they chose "fierce." Of course when a Chinese speaker sees this character he knows that this is a special character for Xiongnu only. Yet the combination 匈奴 (xiongnu) would authomatically associate with "fierce slaves" for the Chinese mind.
The same thing with Faguo, Deguo, Meiguo etc. Of course everybody knows that these are the names for the specific countries, yet looking at the characters would create the associations which I mentioned in my previous post. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 05:27
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BTW, What is the proto-Altaic for man? ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 19:52
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I'm not a fan of Altaic theory, however the following database seems to be quite useful for those who are.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Calt%5Caltet - http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\alt\altet
For the Mongolian "HUN", I got the meanings of SMOKE. RIDE, FLY etc.
For English "Person" I got the following:
Proto-Altaic: *ki̯úne
Nostratic: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/nostr/nostret&text_number=+316&root=config">
 Meaning: person; people, country
Russian meaning: человек; народ, страна
Turkic: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/turcet&text_number=+276&root=config - *Kün
Mongolian: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/monget&text_number=++70&root=config - *küɣün, *-m-
Tungus-Manchu: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/tunget&text_number=1469&root=config - *kün-
Japanese: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/japet&text_number=+223&root=config - *kúní
Comments: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=171 - KW 249, http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=153 - VEWT 309 (Turk.-Mong.), http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=200 - АПиПЯЯ 294, http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=175 - TMN 3, 656-657 (with criticism). The Mong. form is somewhat difficult: one has to suppose original *künün with velar ( > *küŋün > *küɣün) and labial ( > *kümün) assimilations.
Interestingly the Turkic one is used for SUN, not for person. Moreover, with the meaning of SUN, you can't get any reasonable Turkic counterpart.
Anyway, the very existance of Proto Altaic is a big question mark.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:09
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So, could it still be that Hun was in fact the original Huns' name for themselves and it was the Turkic Kun. In fact, it seems that the Mongolian word hun was a loan word from Turkic i.e. probably Hunnish language at that point. Moreover, this resource say that Hun is pronounced like this only in Halha and Eastern dialects on Mongolian. Western dialects like Kalmyk also have kun like in Turkic. Regardless of the validity of Altaic theory, that resource showed that Kun/Hun could in hypothetically be the indigenous ethnonym of Huns and it corresponds to Turkic kun. What do you think barbar? ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:23
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Now back to our topic, the following can shed more light on my belief that Xiongnu called themselves HU, which was in their language Oghur/Ghur.
Oghuzhan legend clearly relates Oghuzhan to the Modun Shanyu (Batur Tengriqut) of Xiongnu. the legend was wide spread among Oghuz Turks, and was writen in 13th century into text by Uyghurs.
The name shows the meaning that he was the Han of Oghuz. Before the "r" and "z" turkic seperation, during the Hunnic period, the name could be Oghurhan. The following part of the legend also support this postulation:
Oghuzhan said:" I'm the han of the Uyghurs".
As the text was writen by Uyghurs, and the Uyghur and Oghur was almost identical, His words such as "I'm the han of Oghurs" might be changed into the above verse.
Actually there was another hint in the legend. When Oghuzhan wanted to fight against his father, a group of people supported and followed him, he called these group of people as Uyghur. The meaning is that OGHURS WHO GATHERED AROUND THE HAN. That means Uyghurs were the part of the Oghur people who gathered around the Oghuzhan.
So the conclusion is the people under the rule of Oghuzhan (XIONGNU SHANYU) were Oghurs.
Legends of course can't be the basis for our historical judgement, but they surely gives a lot of supplementary informations.
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:36
Yes, I have also no doubt the word HUN is related to the KUN, ie the SUN (the son of the sky god).
If we dig more from the historical document, Xiongnu trace their forfather to the Chunwei, the son of the last king of XIA, JIE.
Chunwei could safely be KUNBEY in Turkic if we reconstruct this Chinese word.
Now we can try to look at the Uyghur Emperors titles:
Kun tengride qut bolmish alip bilge Qaghan, etc.
With the meaning: Be born by the sun god, great wise Han.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:46
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But the resource actually says that Turkic Kun also means people and country and is in fact the same word with modern Mongolian Hun. Why couldn't Hun just mean people? IMO it makes sense. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:50
Modern Mongolian word for people, man is pronounced as "HUN-XYH", "KUN-КЮН", "HUMUN-XYMYH" depending on the location. This word "HUN-XYH" used only for "human", not for anything else.
about this SMOKE RIDE, FLY- I think it is some mistake on how you input your word. Each has separate words.
It seems like very good logical answer to the is linguistically "kün", "hun " which is still in use of Modern Mongolian languages. Most probably Xiongnus called themselves as HUN-man, people which makes good sense. Chinese who heard this word wrote it as HU . After collapse of Xiongnu State ( north and south), remaining Huns who moved to west still carried on the name "HUN".
Attile the Man sounds better than Attila the Sun. it was play of word
If we disregard "existance of Proto Altaic language" then big question mark applies to language of Huns. What language ( closer to which language of modern world) . Option is only 2, Mongolic and Turkic. Did Huns speak in Turkic or Mongolic language?
1 option is - Mongolic speaking Xianbeis adapted that word "HUN" from turkic speaking Huns.
Mongolic speaking Xianbis were living north east , powerful Xiongnu were preventing Xianbeis to move south. With division and weakness of Xiongnu, Xianbis moved south, start struggling with remaining Huns over control of open steppe. Only after 91, when Northern Shangyu finally destroyed by Chinese, Xianbis took the opportuinies and start settling in territories of former Huns. That Xiongnu territory was not empty, there were still 100.000 yurts of Xiongnu without Shangyu. With coming of Xianbis they accepted Xianbei and regarded themselves as Xianbis, started taking part for Xianbis cause. From this time, Xianbis became more powerful.
I guess 100000 yurt is about half million Xiongnus mixed with Xianbis. That is huge exchange of gene and language.
But what we have here now is only 20 word from Xiongnus. These words can be Mongolic and Turkic .
2 option is Xianbis and Xiongnus had common language. So they can easily accept/ communicate each other. We know Xianbis were Mongolic speaking people. So were Xiongnus
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Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:54
Word HUN in Western dialects of Mongols , such as Kalmyks who are isolated from Mongolia for 500 hundred years is still KUN , in cyrillic КЮН or KYN. It is not big difference at all
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:07
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Indeed, during Tengxiquy time,Xianpei annexed a huge number of the Xiongnu, that's why Mongolic is quite close to Turkic, not Tungustic. As for the language of Xiongnu: Weishu 91
"高车，盖古赤狄之余种也，初号为狄历，北方以为敕勒，诸夏以为高车、丁零。其语略与匈奴同而时有小异，或云其先匈奴之甥也。"
Translation: Gaoche, all the remnants of old Chidi, original name was Dili, in the north known as Chile, among Xias known as Gaoche, Dingling. Their language is same as Xiongnu with small difference, or can be said the nephews of Xiongnu.
Gaoche or Tiele tribes were Turkic tribes, no one doubts.
Originally I also suspect that Donghu, before were chased by the Xiongnu to the east, was a group which was not different too much from Xiongnu. However I haven't find any source relating these two groups culturally or linguistically. I'd be happy if I can find any.
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:11
I really couldn't relate the word KUN with the meaning of PERSON in Turkic. It might be la ater expansion of the original meaning, which again lost the meaning. In Turkic KUN was original word for SUN, I'm quite sure about that.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:28
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I still think it is very likely. Besides, Hunnish language although Turkic still was quite different and more archaic than the later Turkic so IMO we can't disregard this hypo. http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/turcet&text_number=+276&root=config - http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/turcet&text_number=+276&root=config
Proto-Turkic: *Kün
Altaic etymology: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/altet&text_number=+849&root=config">
Meaning: people
Russian meaning: народ
Old Turkic: elgün (OUygh.)
Karakhanid: el kün ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=164 - KB )
Turkish: elgün (Osm. XIV c.)
Middle Turkic: el wa kün ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=174 - Sangl. ), elgün ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=218 - Pav. C. ), elgün (Oghuz-nama), elgün 'goverment, realm' ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=163 - Ettuhf. )
Comments: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=153 - VEWT 309, http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=175 - TMN 3,656-7, http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=166 - Лексика 317, http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=164 - EDT 121-122, 725-726 (with doubts).
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 23:45
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Proto-Mongolian küɣün Query method Match substring Altaic etymology: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/altet&text_number=+849&root=config">
Meaning: person
Russian meaning: человек
Written Mongolian: kümün ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=155 - L 501)
Middle Mongolian: gu'un ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=156 - HY 27, http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=176 - SH ), komon, kumnɛt ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=192 - IM ), kuw(u)n ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=192 - MA )
Khalkha: xün (pl. xümǖs), xömǖn ( < WMong.)
Buriat: xün
Kalmuck: kǖn, kümṇ
Ordos: kün, kümǖn (<lit.)
Dongxian: kun
Baoan: kuŋ
Dagur: xuar ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=169 - Тод. Даг. 178), huare ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=170 - MD 165)
Shary-Yoghur: kūn
Monguor: kun ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=157 - SM 211)
Mogol: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=201 - ZM ku (10-7a), kut ibid.
Comments: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=171 - KW 246, 249, http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=172 - MGCD 398.
Proto-Mongolian: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%5Cdata%5Calt%5Cmonget&text_recno=70&root=config -
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Posted By: Xianpei
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 06:38
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[QUOTE=ProMongol] I see. Mongolian "XYH"- HUN is the The name for HUNS. Somehow Mongolians still kept that word in use till now. There must be linguistic connection between donghu> huns> sianbi> kidan> mongol --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------DongHu is Tungus, but Huns is not. For Tungus tribes like Sianbi (Xianbei), Kidan and Mongol, there should be linguistic connection among them. But, it is quite doubtful there should be between Donghu & Huns. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 07:35
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Xianbi, Kidans and Mongols are not Tungusic. They are Mongolic. Mongolic and Tungusic are two different branches of Altaic family. As for Donghu, they are also considered Mongolic and thus they are not Tungus.
As for the word Hun, it was shown above that the Turkic anagogues word Kun existed with the same meaning. So. it's possible that Huns called themselves like this with the meaning of 'people.' ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Xianpei
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 15:14
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They are Tungusic......... ! Pls have a glance into the following, which are self-explanatory:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/mongolia/kitanJurchen.htm - http://ancienthistory.about.com/mongolia/kitanJurchen.htm
http://www.mongolia-web.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1222 - http://www.mongolia-web.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1222
Also, Mongols originates from ancient tribe ShiWei, who in turn has root fm DongHu
Secondly, nowadays Chinese tribe called Xibe, who are descendants of Xianbei who went out from present day North West forest and mountains in China, and later moved to the Mongolian land previously occupied by XioungNu in two thousand years before.
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 17:24
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I though hun or khun met people(man) both in old turkic and mongolian? ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 19:10
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Barbar, I should say, "hun" in Modern Uighur, meaning "blood" is of Persian origin. The original person word for "blood, spirit" is "xun" (or "khun"). Also, the word you mention is "a prefix+kün" in Turkic. The old Turkic word was "elgün" for instance; or the Turkmen form is "ilgün". In middle Turkic, you can even observe "elwakün". And the original Altaic word, itself, has got a suffix: something like "künün". Why? Because of Mongolian "kügün" or "kümün" (which was probably "kübün") or Tungus - Manchu "xunchixin" or "Xunchun".
And the Proto - Turkic word for "day; daylight; sun" is "künel" or "kunal". You see the stems are different: even in Altaic: the constructed form for "people" is "kiune" while "daylight; sun" is "gioynu". ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 00:12
Unfortunately, Xianpei you didn't read you sources were attentive before placing them.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/mongolia/kitanJurchen.htm - http://ancienthistory.about.com/mongolia/kitanJurchen.htm
Says nothing about Kitan, but is says that:
A Tungusic people, the Jurchen, ancestors of the Manchu
This is absolutely correct, but I didn't discuss Jurchen in my post. Jurchen indeed were Tungusic unlike Kidans or Donghu
However, another article on the same site says:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/mongolia/a/TangChina.htm - http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/mongolia/a/TangChina.htm
From 629 to 648, a reunited China -- under the Tang Dynasty (A.D. 618-906) -- destroyed the power of the Eastern Türk north of the Gobi; established suzerainty over the Kitan, a semi-nomadic Mongol people
Another your source says which in fact is the pdf copy of the articles of the first webpage, says:
http://www.mongolia-web.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1222 - http://www.mongolia-web.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1222
The Xianbei were the northern branch of the Donghu (or Tung Hu, the Eastern Hu), a proto-Mongol and/or Tunguz group I don't agree that they were and/or Tunguz, since they are considered Mongols, but in any case you are not correct , by claiming that they definitely were Tunguz, since this article is uncertain.
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Xianpei
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 02:16
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Hi Sarmat, Pls have my following points in response to your view:- 1. The word "Mongol" only in-the-first-time appears in Qiu chu-jie's Book called "The Western Journey Book" during Genjis Khan time. But Xianbei name is much much older than Mongol. The article I posted says "Proto- Mongol", it tries to let readers know Mongol is associated with the Xianbei tribes. (Remarks: Qiu is that famous Taoist master whom Genjis Khan much admired and always strove to invite Qiu to give "hints" on the pursuit of conquring the world and how to rule it.) 2. Donghu is Tunguz; and Shiwei is surely one of Donghu tribes, and from many history books, they say the Mongols (at least the elite Mongols) rooted from Shiwei. And Wei Shu says " Shiwei is same group of Kitan" And Kitan origins can be traced back to DongHu. 3. Again, Kitan appears in Tang Dynasty, whilst Mongols, this word appears in Chinese Sung Dynasty. The same reasoning as in the above 1. (Kitan, a semi-nomadic Mongol people. What I interpreted this is : Kitan, a semi-nomadic Mongolian people) and surely that the term Kitan comes earlier than that of Mongol. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 03:41
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You confuse the name of Mongols as a nation with the people who spoke and belonged to the group of Mongolic languages. Mongolic doesn't mean Mongol of the Song dynasty.
The fact that certain ancient tribes are called Mongolic doesn't mean that they were Mongols of the 13th century as we know it from the empire of Chenghizkhan. They simply are called Mongolic for the convenience of classification since the language they spoke was related to the language of the Modern Mongols.
For the same reasons ancient Tiele and Xiongnu tribes are clasified as Turkic now. At the time when Tiele lived for example nobody even heard the word "Turk" which appeared many centuries later. However Tiele are classified as Turkic tribe because they spoke the language which was related to the language of Turks.
Even your own sources say that Kidan are Mongolic, why do you still insist that they were Tungusic?
Mongolic is not egual to Mongol as you misunderstood. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Xianpei
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 04:40
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I do not think I confused. The following clarifies what my saying:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiwei - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiwei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donghu - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donghu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mongol - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mongol
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 05:54
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I'm sorry, but it seems that you don't follow me at all. You links again prove what I repeated to you several times.
Shiwei (Chinese: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%AE%A4 - 室 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%9F%A6 - 韦 ) is one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Chinese_history - Ethnic groups in Chinese history , who once reside at the eastern part of Mongolia and Manchuria. It maintains close ties with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donghu - Donghu . The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol - Mongol people are believed to be originated from it. It says only that Shiwei were the ancestors of Mongols i.e. they were Mongolic or Proto-Mongol people. You simply won't be able to find any sources which say that Mongols are Tungusic, those are 2 different groups of people. According to Altaic theory they are within one Altaic languages group according to another this group doesn't exist and Mongols and Tungus are not related to each other at all.------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 06:00
This is the comprehensive list of Tungusic languages from Wikipedia, as you can see it doesn't include Mongol, but just emphasizes that Mongolic and Tungusic languages are 2 groups within Altaic family.Tungusic languagesFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tungusic languages (or Manchu-Tungus languages) are spoken in Eastern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia - Siberia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchuria - Manchuria . Although it is a very debated subject, many linguists consider them to be part of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages - Altaic language phylum, which, if it actually exists as a genetic entity, also includes the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages - Turkic and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolic_languages - Mongolic language families. Many Tungusic languages are endangered, and the long-term future of the family is uncertain.
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tungusic_languages&action=edit§ion=1 - edit ] ClassificationLinguists working on Tungusic have proposed a number of different classifications based on different criteria, including morphological, lexical, and phonological characteristics. One classification which seems favoured over other alternatives is that the Tungusic languages can be divided into a northern branch and a southern branch, with the southern branch further subdivided into southeastern and southwestern groups. Northern Tungusic
Following languages can be considered dialects or related languages of Evenki
Southern Tungusic
Jurchen-Manchu (Jurchen and Manchu are simply different stages of the same language; in fact, the ethnonym "Manchu" did not come about until 1636 when Emperor Hong Taiji decreed that the term would replace "Jurchen") is the only Tungusic language with a literary form which dates back to at least the mid- to late-1100s; as such it is a very important language for the reconstruction of Proto-Tungusic. The earliest extant text in Jurchen is the Da Jin deshengtuo songbei inscription (The Jin Victory Memorial Stele), which dates from the http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dading&action=edit - dading period (1161-1189). ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Xianpei
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 11:27
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Hi Sarmat, OK. I agree to you in term of discussion about Tungus. But, XiongNu language is different fm Donghu's.... right? |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 12:50
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I read somewere that the hunnic language is closest to chuvash turkic
Branch of Turkic spoken by the Khazars & avars ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 15:29
Right. Xiongnu are commonly believed to be Turkic unlike Donghu who were Mongolic. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 15:31
Yes, this is the theory.
I would say the language spoken by Khazars and Bulgars. Unfortunately, we still don't know much about the language of Avars.
However, Chuvash also bears very strong Finno-Ugric influence. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:17
First, we have to be very careful with the reconstucted word of the Proto language.
Second, KUN have had the meaning of the SUN, It was one of the basic words and one of the most important object for the Turkic people, it's less likely it have originally other meaning than SUN. Lest what was the prototurkic word for SUN? These two meanings (country/people and sun) less likely to have a common root.
Third, if the word was used together with EL (COUNTRY), then it's another story. ELKUN could mean the LAND of the KUNS. Later it could be generalized to mean COUNTRY. EL also had the meaning of people, ELKUN also could be generalized to the meaning of people.
Anyway, there is no doubt KUN originally meant SUN. HUN could be more archaic Hunnic term with the same meaning. COUNTRY or PEOPLE only could be later expansion of the original meaning.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:34
The linguistical term Tungustic came from Donghu. Current Mongolic people mainly can be traced to the ancient Donghu, although the language Mongolic branced out from Tungustic quite early due to Hunnic (Turkic) influence.
The term Tunguz can give us another hint for the Oghur/ghur point we are discussing.
Tongus was Tonguz/Tonghuz.
Ghuz and Ghur were just two dialectical variant of Turkic. (oghur/oghuz)
So Tongus=Tonguz=Tonghuz=Tonghur
Tongus was Donghu.
Hu was Ghur(/Oghur).
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 21:56
This is incorrect. The term Tungus/Tungusic comes from the old name for Evenks, who were referred as Tungus before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evenks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evenks
The Evenks were formerly known as tungus. This designation was spread by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians - Russians , who acquired it from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuts - Yakuts and the Siberian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars - Tatars (in the Yakut language tongus) in the 17th century.
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 22:50
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Cg (Chinese guy) - "Xiongnu?"
Hg (Hun guy) - "Hu Me?"
Cg - "Yes, you!"
Hg - "Why thanks, you could call me hun big guy
 ."Cg - "Evenksually. Only when I get to know you better!"
Hg - "I see. You speak in many tongus. In that case I kun understand."
Cg - "Shanyu?"
Hg - "Yup!" ------------- |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 01:13
 ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 09:02
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Well, you might be right Barbar. But, 'Tungus' is the title given by Tatars to Evenks. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 22:14
Why did Evenks were known as Tungus by Turkic people?
Tungus had the meaning of PIG in Turkic, but it wasn't the proto one. It's highly probable that Xiongnu used the term that designates Donghu to the PIG to diminish their strongest rivals. Anyway, the main part of the decendants of the Donghu are known as Tungustic for us now. Can't you make any correlation?
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 22:18
 "Evenksually" that's the best one.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 22:49
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Chinese also called the nomadic people in the west of HU (Xiongnu) as Xihu later. Just as the usage of Donghu. That's why Xiongnu, Jie, Di, Xianpei and Qiang were called as WUHU (during WUHULUANHUA (five HUs disturb China) period). Actually Xianpei were Donghu, Qiang were Xihu, and they were not part of HU.
I'd like to dig more of the meaning of HU(Oghur).
The Chinese Character itself is quite interesting. It is the combination of GU(Ancient) and Yue (Moon).
We have Yuezhi in the west. Yue (Moon) and Zhi/Shi (means family name).
After the collapse of Xia (ancesters of Xiongnu), according to the chronicle, one group went to the north (Xiongnu), and another group went to the west (Yuezhi?).
This relation also explains Chinese recording about the same culture that Xiongnu and Yuechi possessed.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: ProMongol
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 23:14
Before you writing your "highly probable" assumption "Tungus=Pig", why don't you do following.
1. check out whether any nomadic people were familiar with "pig"( I mean pig, not boar) in time of Huns and Donghu.
2. find out geographical map of "pig" domistication history of nomadic or arctic people
3. check out since when the word "pig" became word to diminish others. AFAIK, I know word "pig" in mongolian language GAHAI, GAHA which is also word for boar. Word for wild boar "GAHAI was not diminishing word at all. Even some strong man were addressed as BODON GAHAI BAGATUR- strong as boar, vigorous as boar. Only after the mass introduction of domisticated pig ( pig farm) in 20th by russians and chinese in Mongolia, locals start using word GAHAI (pig) to diminish others because Nomads became very familar with bad reputation for dirtiness and gluttony other lesser known qualities of Pig.
So I highly doubt about what you wrote
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 02:55
Russian researches who did most of the studies on Tungus call this theory absurdously ridiculous. It's totally unlikely that Tungus had any relation to Donghu and especially that Yakuts remembered the "ancient name which was given to Donghu by Huns." Instead this name originates from Tungusic/Evenkian "donkan" or "dunkan" which means "people of Taiga." Simple as that. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 21:08
Then please tell me why PIG was called "Tungus/Tunguz" in Turkic? Even in Hungarian similar variant is used. I can't find any other etymology, maybe you can help me out here.
It's actually constructive to my postulation that Hunnic people encountered PIG later period and gave the name of their foes to this type of animal. Huns had very strong contact with Chinese that they surely knew these domesticated type.
Boar had another word in Turkic, which is Qawan. It is also used to describe the strength in Turkic, but it's another story.
When Rouran (ruling tribe was Xianpei, from Donghu) was in power, a group of delegates from Later Hun kingdom in the west came to visit the Khan, and were surprised by their filthiness. Hun delegates noticed that Rouran never washed themselves (While Huns washed themselves at least three times a week) and Rouran washed the dishes with their toungue. They returned and told the king that why they should pay tribute to such a dirty people.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 21:18
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old Turkic
pig = Tonguz as far as I know ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 21:20
Sarmat, why don't we focus on the main point in our discussion?
The major decendants of the ancient Donghu are present day Tungustic people, then how can these two "totally unlikely to have any relation"?
I didn't say Yaqut remembered the ancient name.
I didn't say this ancient name was given by Huns, actually in my posts it is quite clear that this is the name given by the Chinese.
How come "People of Taiga" became "donkan"? I'm clearly seeing Dong and Kun(Hun or Hu) terms from the latter, again it's being related to the Donghu. It's not as that simple.
Tungus or Tunguz was derived from the Hunnic calling of the Chinese Donghu. In "r" turkic, it could be Tunghur. Clearly relating Chinese HU with Hunnic Ghur.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 00:40
I don't have anything against focusing on the main point of our discussion. However I can't agree with several hypos which are being proposed.
There are no any proofs for that, except that ridiculous "pig" theory. From the sources that I read about Donghu it clearly follows that their descendants are Mongolic peope and Donghu were Proto-mongols.
So Chinese gave to Evenks this name? Do I understand you right?
This is in Tungus/ Evenk language. And what it means is people of Taiga. If it looks similar to Dong and Kun it doesn't mean that it has the same meaning. There are dozens of these kind of linguistic confusions and I can give you many examples of them.
However, my main point is that: 1. Donghu were Proto-mongolic but not Tungusic, 2 The name Tungus comes from the Evenk name "people of Taiga" and doesn't have to do anything with the Turkic name for swine.
That's all I want to emphasize.
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Tar Szerénd
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 10:17
| Doesn't mean pig "domuz" ? |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 14:29
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Sure does Tar Szerend. Domuz is the modern version. Maybe tonguz alludes to those ancesters of the modern pig, the proto-pig, as spoken by the proto-Turks. ------------- |
(Seko humor at its worst).Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 17:06
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Ohhhh, I didn't know about "donkan". That was something new to me. I've always really wondered why that should be "tunguz". Thanks, Sarmat. By the way Barbar, "ghur" in "uighur" for instance, is just a suffix you can see in many other words like"alghyr", "sylgyr". In this way, "uighur" means "joining". Assuming it to be "ui+oghur" is just a bit difficult. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 22:40
Donghu migrated to the east and became known as Xianpei and Wuhuan. They were living in the lands of the present day Tungustic people. Although notable groups of Wuhuan later Xianpei managed to make their way back to the Mongolian steppe later, ethnic mixture with the local forestic people surely reached quite high level within these several hundreds of years, and it is no wonder if they were all together known as Donghu for their western neighbours. You have yet to pove me that the migrated people had nothing to do with the local people.
No, you are still unable to understand. Donghu was Chinese name for the people in the east of Xiongnu. Xiongnu adopted this, however with their own way, Donghur. Because they knew HU was Ghur.
You didn't explain the relation between Don and Taiga.
I'm not playing word game. The linguistical links are based on historical records.
My point is 1. Donghu were among the proto-mongols and also proto-tungus.
2. Tungus came from Dongghur, which was originally Chinese Donghu. The name later adopted by Hunnic to the PIG. Note in the following the protoTurkic is Dongur.
Proto-Turkic: *doŋuŕ
Altaic etymology: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/altet&text_number=2220&root=config">
Meaning: pig
Russian meaning: свинья
Old Turkic: toŋuz (OUygh.)
Karakhanid: toŋuz ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=164 - MK )
Turkish: domuz
Tatar: duŋɣɨz
Middle Turkic: toŋuz ( http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?&single=1&root=config&basename=/data/biblio/biblio.dbf&text_recno=174 - Sangl. )
Uzbek: tọnɣis
Uighur: toŋɣuz
Sary-Yughur: doŋiz
Azerbaidzhan: donuz
Turkmen: doŋuz
Kirghiz: doŋuz
Kazakh: doŋɨz
Noghai: doŋɨz
Balkar: toŋɣuz
Gagauz: domuz
Karaim: toŋɣuz, domuz
Karakalpak: doŋɨz
Salar: toŋas
Kumyk: doŋɣuz ------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 02:41
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Unfortunately, I can't agree with that. It doesn't make sense to me at all, why Xiongnu who were for sure much more familiar with Donghu than Chinese had to adopt Chinese name for this people?
The version about pigs-donghu still seems to me to be just a bad joke.
I'm not an expert in Evenk language. I don't know why donkan means people of Taiga. I can just refer you to the sources which say this.
However, I can accept that there could be a minor Tungusic element among Donghu. This is totally possible. There was also a sizeble Turkic element in Mongols of the 13th century, for example.
But still I believe that Donghu were mainly Mongolic. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 02:42
You are welcome ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 20:35
We have discussed this before, I really don't want to repeat. Since you still have difficulity in understanding, here we go again.
If "ghur" in Turkic is only suffix, then tell me What did Qutighur, Sarighur, utighur mean?
Sarighur are the people who became Yellow?
What about Onughur? Some people became ten?
What about some Uyghur tribes like Baioghur?
We clearly know we had Oghuz tribes, why couldn't we have Oghur tribes? Do you need more proof that Oghur was just a dialectical variant of Oghuz? Is that so difficult to understand?
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 06:35
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"Sarighur" is "Sari Uighur" (Yellow Uighurs) or sometimes even "Sari Yughur"; "Onughur" is "on Uighur" (10 Uighurs), you know. "Baioghur" is "Bai Uighur" (Great Uighurs). "Qutighur" is "Qut Uighur" (Let's say, what, Luck Uighur = Honor Uighur). "Utighur" is "Ut Uighur" (winning Uighurs). We've got "onoghuz" too; but clearly they are two words: "on oghuz" (10 Oghuz). "Altoghuz" is "alti oghuz" (6 Oghuz) I just mean in Turkish or any Central Asian dialect, "Uighur" is just lke "alghyr", "sylgyr", "özgür". You can ask any Turkish or Central Asian forumer here. Seko (please), "özgür" is "öz+gür". Now if you place ther verb "ui" (to join)instead of "öz", you will have "uigur", right? I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But I really appreciate this if you could explain a bit about it. There is no such a word like "people" (in the word "uighur") to think "Sari Uighur" means, for instance, "PEOPLE who became yellow". "Uighur" means just "to join, joining" (there's no people); "Alghyr" means "to take; taking". You seem to be angry or something. Calm down man... ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 10:42
I was talking about European oghur tribes (except Baioghur), at that time, Uyghur confederacy weren't formed in the east, and your explanation doesn't make sense. Oghur doesn't equal to Uyghur. Onoghur in the europe weren't the Onuyghurs in the east, although they were both oghur tribes.
I'm totally calm. Sometimes we need to discuss linguistical terms in the historical context. ------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 11:07
It's a general term, and it wasn't how DONGHU called themselves. It's not unlikely Xiongnu used similar term as Chinese. In Hanshu, there were a paragraph about Batur Tenriqut and his ministers' dialogue. In the dialogue, Xiongnu also called Donghu as Donghu not otherwise. Although it was writen by Han historians, it doesn't negate my postulation.
You can see from above Turkic dialects that Tongus-Tonguz-Donguz-Dongur-Donghur are all can be just dialectical variant. We couldn't find the etymological origin of the word, except Chinese DONGHU, as we know HU was used for Ghur and ghuz.
Remember, Chinese called Oghuz as WUHU.
I'd be happy if we can find Tongus origin from the Evenk or any other Tungustic languages. For the moment, I'm quite convinced that it's origin was from Chinese DONGHU.
Even proto-mongols had sizeable Turkic element if we recall Xianpei annexation of Hun tribes. Mongolic was just a result of Tungustic and Hunnic admixture.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 11:36
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Well, you might be right. It's just what I think. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 20:25
sorry thats hardly convincable. likewise i could say teh word Hun, or Oghur if you wish, comes from the Chinese word HU... ------------- |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 22:58
With all due respect, but "we" don't need to look for and find anything. It was already established by the scholars who specifically studied Tungus/Evenks their culture and origins; and clearly established that the name "Tungus" originated directly from their language and has a original meaning "People of Taiga." It is already discovered and proved.
I'm sorry but these Chinese hypos are totally meaningless. I probably could take them into consideration if we assumed that Chinese could take Donghu from Tungusic donkan or Tungus would be a name for Manzhus who were nomades like Donghu and lived later at the same territory where Donghu had settled.
However, still I can't understand why Turks would use "swines" as a designation for other people. First of all, no nomades, cultivated swines, secondly it's very unlikely that they would be familiar to that animal to such extent as to use is a degradatory name for others.
Pig was a part of traditional Chinese culture, but definetely not a part of Nomadic culture.
Tungus-Evenks is the small tribe of Siberian Taiga hunters. They have a totally natural name for themselves "donkan", in some parts of Siberia they simply call themselves "kan/kun" i.e. people.
There is no need to go that far and look for the origin of their name among the name of Mongolic Donghu tribe or ancient Turkic word for pig. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 14:33
I think you meant barbar instead of I since he has been the one you have been debating with. If I am mistaken and you actually do want my opinion then let me know. Otherwise "gür" has the connotation of "many" similar to "ögür", as in "group of people". For 'özgur', as in your example, a prefix changes it into a different meaning (freewill). ------------- |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 20:47
If we believe in everything our GREAT guys have concluded, then there is really no need here to debate.
You seem like to use "totally", "at all", "absolutely", etc words in your discussions. I'd have refrained from using them so frequently when discussing history.
What I want to know, or really want to learn, is how "people of Taiga" became Donkan in Evenk language. I hope you don't mind citing some research works from these Russian guys devoted their lives in studying the Tungustic languages and culture.
If you don't mind, I'd be happy to learn from you how Donkan in turn became or used as Tungus.
Am I asking too much?
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 04:29
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With great pleasure. Just some of the basic bibliography from the great number of the Russian publications on Tungus:
Бурыкин А.А. История и культура эвенов 1992.-
Burykin A.A. History and culture of Evens 1992
Василевич Г.М. К вопросу о тунгусах и ламутах Северо-Востока в XVII-XVIII вв. // 1958
Vasilevich G.M. On the question of Tungus and Lamuts of the North East in 17-18th century 1958
Левин М.Г. Этническая антропология и проблемы этногенеза народов Дальнего Востока.- 1958.
Levin M.G. Ethnic anthropology and problems of ethnogenesis of the people of the Far East. 1958
А. Золотарев НОВЫЕ ДАННЫЕ О ТУНГУСАХ И ЛАМУТАХ XVIII ВЕКА 1938 A. Zolotarev New data about Tungus and Lamuts of XVIII cenury 1938
Туголуков В.А. Эвены // Вопросы истории.- 1971.-
Tugolukov V.A. Evens//Questions of history 1971.
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 21:10
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Thanks for your effort. At last we seem to be on the right track in discussion.
However, what you have provided can't be taken as a reasonable explanation for the etymology of the Tungus, Instead it's just negating the original hypothesis with very weak arguments.
Their conclution based on the hypo that Tungus in Yaqut meant "pig breeder", actually it just can mean "pig". It can be related to the hygene directly. It can happen that you call a group of people "pigs" even if they have nothing to do with pig breeding.
Another weak point in the argument is that they claimed that Russians met Evenks before Yaquts, and it can be originally "Donkan, Donki....", failing to provide any proof why Tungus was used instead. Why didn't these Russians stick to the original term?
You said today you find another hypo in Ket language, clearly telling me that Tungus isn't yet as stamped term as you earlier claimed.
We still need to answer why in proto-turkic Donghur was used for Pig, what's the etymology of this term? The only exlanation for the moment is DONGHU.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 22:38
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We can see, Barbar, that there is a clear and logical explanation for the origin of the term Tungus from their own language, while your "swine" hypo is already doubted my most of the participants of this particular thread.
I don't need to answer your questions about Turkic words for pigs because these great animals hardly have any relation to Huns or Evenks, except in the wild imagination of some Chinese historians.
As for Russian guys, they didn't stick with the name Tungus for ages, but use the term Evenk now.
I also gave you this particular citation since you can very easily check this point online. You might not particularly like wording how the author put the relation between "donkan" and "tungus," but there is the full number of other books where the historians put it in another way, which might be more appropriate for you.
I also gave the Ket language hypo as an example of IMO "logical" hypothetical thinking, unlike the "swine" theory.
I already gave you a huge list of publications on the problem and I suggest you to study this question more in depth before repeating what you already said.
The fact is that there is no any proof that Donghu were named swines by ancient Turks, there is no definite proof that Donghu were Tungusic and there is no definite proof that the name Tungus originates from Turkic word for swine.
I understand that you may not like my explanation. This is your right. But you have to admit that the explanation you propose is only one from the number of the others which actually seem to be far more logical and natural (at least for some people).
I don't think you can persuade me by repeating again that the word Tungus is very similar to the Turkic word for swine and thus "Tungus" originated from that word.
If you want to keep the discussion constructive and fruitful please switch to another point.
I already said that "swine" explanatation of Tungus is not persuasive for me and not only for me but for the whole number of serious historians whose names I already gave you.
You may still think differently, but it won't change my perseption unless you give something more valid to support your arguments.
Thank you ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 08:22
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I needed YOUR explanation Seko. Thanks. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 12:56
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Well, sarmat. I hope we don't have any misunderstandings between each other.
My objection to your points started when you claimed Tungustic people have nothing to do with the ancient Donghu.
Do Tungustic people call themselves Tungus? NO. They have their own tribal names. It is quite clear the term came from others.
Do they generally refer themselves as Donki (Donkun), you have to give me the proof. Instead searching from their languages some words which is closer to TUNGUS, just to overturn the commonly accepted theory. Even if they generally refer themselves as Donki/Donkun, one should be given reasonable explanation as for this term's etymology, and why this term, instead of TUNGUS, isn't used?
Only one guy suggested "People of Taiga" or "people of Hills". Which one? Are all the Tungustic people living in the same geographical condition?
Actually there is no any "swine" theory,as you labled. Fact is Yaquts call them Tungus, (not related to the swine), related to ancient Donghu, ie the eastern neighbours of the Turkic people ( as always known to them as such). Donghu is only the general term. Yes, they might be wrong to call them Tungus. It happens. You Russians call Chinese "Hitayiski". Hiyat-hitan-qitan weren't Chinese, instead a mongolic tribe. However there was also some relation. Qitan before migrating to the west built LIAO dynasty in China. Tungus people are not locals of northen siberia.
This is the common theory as many of the historians and encyclopedias believed.
"swine" in Turkic is just a side effect of the term Donghu. For DONG, the only etymological explanation can be Chinese "east". It is also consistent with Turkic encounter with this animal quite later period. They gave the name of their eastern foes to this animal. It's simple as that.
Discussion of TUNGUS indeed very important for this thread, as it can provide another proof for the Xiongnu calling themselves as "Oghur/Ghur".
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 20:40
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Dear barbar, I'm very grateful for your positive attitude. I just want to comment on your point. Unfortunately we can't say that that Tungus are related to Donghu is a fact. Yes, even if I hypothetically accept that Yakuts called Tungus meaning "swines" in Turkic and this is the only version of possible origin of this term, I could accept it only for Evenks, because we can't prove that the same name was used by Turks for Donghu. You said that Donghu were the Eastern neighbors of Turks, yes this is correct, but I just think that they were Mongolic but not Tungisic and it's proved by the generally accepted chronology of certain tribes origin i.e. Donghu-Shiwei-Mongols. Thus we can conclude that Donghu were a Proto-Mongolic tribe, since they were ancestors of Mongols. Is there a traditional Chinese chronology which also put Jurchens or Evenks as originated from Donghu? Can you refer me to such sources? Now, what I meant when I talked about the Russian sources which put the relation between Donkan and Tungus in another way. Those sources actually say that Tungus was also used as a self designation for Evenks in the 18th century and they also explain how the original Donkan transferred to Tungus in Russian and Yakut language. It's all explained by the linguistic means in terms that some certain sounds of Evenk language were pronounced differently in Yakut and other languages which resulted in Tungus. Yes, you are right Russian people call China Kitai, the name which we took from Kitan, also called Kara-Kitai. In fact, another name for China in English which is Cathay also originates from Kitan. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2008 at 21:08
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Tungus people's ancestors were DONGYI in Chinese chronicles. However Jurchen can be related to Xianpei (Aka Donghu) according to some historians. The seperation wasn't that clear cut, it's normal since the two groups mixed to quite certain degree. Mongolic became more distinct mainly due to their Nomadic life style. Genetic studies also showing the significant similarities between Tungustic Evenk and Mongolic Buryat.
Mongolic people weren't always in between Turkic and Tungustic. Actually some Turkic tribes also lived just west to the Tungustic tribes.
BTW, Tungustic people really had a lot to do with PIG.
Houhanshu, zhuan 85:
挹娄，古肃慎之国也。处于山林之间，土气极寒，常为穴居，以深为贵，大家至接九梯。好养豕，食其肉，衣其皮。冬以豕膏涂身，厚数分，以御风寒。夏则裸袒，以尺布蔽其前后。其人臭秽不洁，作厕于中，圜之而居。自汉兴以后，臣属夫馀。 Yilou, ancient Sushen state. In the mountain forest, very cold. Stay in the caves, better to have deep ones. Family links to nineth decendant. Good in breeding PIGs, eat the meat, and wear the skin as clothes. In winter use the grease of the pig on their bodies, make it quite thick to protect themselves from the cold wind. In summer naked with a piece of cloth to cover the front and back. They are smelly and dirty, live around the toilet in the middle. After Han became strong, subjugated to Fuyu. ------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2009 at 16:09
I may have the answer.It's from several Chinese-language books I read on ancient nomadic tribes of northern China referenced Russian sources extensively studied indigenous peoples of Manchuria as Russia Empire expanded farther east into Siberia during Qing dynastic period in China.
Russians learned of the word " Donghu " referring to Mongol nomadic tribes by the Chinese.The original pronunciation was then rendered with approximated spelling as in " Tungus ".It's just a corrupted spelling of " Donghu ' for those tribes later categorized as Tungusic.
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