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True Arabs

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Post-Classical Middle East
Forum Discription: SW Asia, the Middle East and Islamic civilizations from 600s - 1900 AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21311
Printed Date: 24-Apr-2024 at 18:30
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Topic: True Arabs
Posted By: andrew
Subject: True Arabs
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 18:03

I noticed many think that whoever comes from the Middle East is Arab. I'm from the Middle East and I do not consider myself an Arab. Iraqis think of themselves as Chaldeans, Syrians consider themselves Assyrians, Lebanese think of themselves as Maronites, and Egyptians consider themselves as Copts. Coincidentally all of these peoples I mentioned are Christian.

Now Arab can mean many things. If you speak Arabic and share its culture, your an Arab. If you are part of the Middle East, your an Arab. However in the sense of ethnicity how many people in the Middle East are Arab? I mean we all look alike going from dark brown skin to light olive oil skin so who are the 'true Arabs?' The best answer I got is that most of the Arabs today are what is today the Arabian peninsula: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, and the United Arab Emirates.

People say the term 'Arab' is a modern term for what was then referred to as 'Bedhouins,' which were desert nomads. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Because most I've talked to think the Middle East is all Arab because of the language and what we look like.




Replies:
Posted By: dubai
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 21:20

yeah just because u speak arabic and have arabic culture doesn't mean your ethnicity is arabs. The truest of arabs actually are yemenis and hijazis. even many saudi could not be considered true arabs esepcailly in the northern areas because they have mixed with assyrians, iraqis and jordianians over the centuries. places like UAE qatar have mixed with iranians and indians.



Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 22:05
Originally posted by dubai

yeah just because u speak arabic and have arabic culture doesn't mean your ethnicity is arabs. The truest of arabs actually are yemenis and hijazis. even many saudi could not be considered true arabs esepcailly in the northern areas because they have mixed with assyrians, iraqis and jordianians over the centuries. places like UAE qatar have mixed with iranians and indians.

 
Weird things is, in the Middle East we practically all look alike so it is very hard to see from looks. Most in the Middle East pick up on each other's accent but in the West we all look the same and have the same culture so unless we tell them otherwise we're all just Arab.


Posted By: dubai
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 22:52
The reason u guys look the same is because essentially u are all related, i mean arabs and all the other groups of people have always been interconnected, so yeah ethinicity wise u guys are very very similar. To tell u the truth however yemenis, omanis, Uae natives actually look different from iraqis, jordianians, syrians etc... The people of the north have way more mixed blood like from romans,greeks, persians...
 
btw are u iraqi? i am orginally from kuwait living in dubai.


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 23:59
Originally posted by dubai

The reason u guys look the same is because essentially u are all related, i mean arabs and all the other groups of people have always been interconnected, so yeah ethinicity wise u guys are very very similar. To tell u the truth however yemenis, omanis, Uae natives actually look different from iraqis, jordianians, syrians etc... The people of the north have way more mixed blood like from romans,greeks, persians...
 
btw are u iraqi? i am orginally from kuwait living in dubai.
 
No, I am Egyptian from the Nile Delta. Nice to meet you by the way.Smile


Posted By: dubai
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 01:07
wow nice, do u trace ur ancestory to anceint egyptians?


Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 02:14
     Although I agree with your main point that not all people from the middle east are Arabs, Syrians do not consider themselves Assyrians. They consider themselves Syrians. And only maybe 30% of Lebanese consider themselves Maronites.

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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

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Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 11:10
 Although I agree with your main point that not all people from the middle east are Arabs, Syrians do not consider themselves Assyrians. They consider themselves Syrians. And only maybe 30% of Lebanese consider themselves Maronites.
 
Well, the term Maronite is used only with the Christian population and considering Lebanon's population is about 30% that's probably the reason. Most people of the Middle East are not Arabs but because of being Muslim they make themselves Arabs. The term Copt was so closely tied to being a Christian that whoever converted to Islam was not longer a Copt but an Arab. That's why we all look alike try to tell the difference between a Copt, Maronite, and Arab and you won't find many. Muslims and Christians all look alike there really is no distinction.
 
wow nice, do u trace ur ancestory to anceint egyptians?
 
I most likely do have a lot of ancient Egyptian blood in me but being from the Delta I'm guessing I'm a mix of many other things to. How's it in Dubai, I heard it is a beautiful country I think of it as the Gem of the Middle East.
 


Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 06:16
Originally posted by andrew

I noticed many think that whoever comes from the Middle East is Arab. I'm from the Middle East and I do not consider myself an Arab. Iraqis think of themselves as Chaldeans, Syrians consider themselves Assyrians, Lebanese think of themselves as Maronites, and Egyptians consider themselves as Copts. Coincidentally all of these peoples I mentioned are Christian.

Now Arab can mean many things. If you speak Arabic and share its culture, your an Arab. If you are part of the Middle East, your an Arab. However in the sense of ethnicity how many people in the Middle East are Arab? I mean we all look alike going from dark brown skin to light olive oil skin so who are the 'true Arabs?' The best answer I got is that most of the Arabs today are what is today the Arabian peninsula: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, and the United Arab Emirates.

People say the term 'Arab' is a modern term for what was then referred to as 'Bedhouins,' which were desert nomads. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Because most I've talked to think the Middle East is all Arab because of the language and what we look like.

Actually you are right when you wrote Arab can mean many things that is completly right but when you say Iraqis consider themselves Chaldean that is totally misunderstanding of the case.
the full name of syria is Syrian Arab Republic and they consider themselves true or pure Arab.
in Iraq 75% of the population or more are Arab all of them belong to Arab Tribes and can trace their root or ancestors far than a 1000 years they came from Arabia after conquring Iraq they from famous tribs like Tamim,Tai,Taghlub,Bakr and more if you intrested I can mention them.
even before that the Arab settled in Southern Iraq the Lakhmid Dynasty was a vassel kingdom of Sassanid of Persia, Lakhm tribe is a very big tribe as well as Bakr and Shayban who defeated  the Sassanids at the battle of Dhi-Qar 610 A.D. 
Syria and other countries in the Levant are the same case there are alot arabized people among the population but the Majority is true Arabs.
 


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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 15:50
Well Ahmed, all the people of the Middle East are related. Israelis and Jews are brothers. Egyptians and Arabs are brothers, remember Hagar was Egyptians and traveled into the deserts of Arabia, we're all related to one another Egyptians, Arabs, Assyrians, Babylonians whatever we are all connected. The Arabians came as a single group spreading Islam throught the Middle East and at that time in the Middle East Christianity was the dominant religion. So if your part of an ethnic group it wasn't based on nationality, but religion. When the Arabs came it all changed and we all became one family again. I don't really understand the idea of certain Arab tribes going to Iraq, Egypt, and Assyria.
 
For example both Egypt and Assyrian are now 'Arab Republics' but Lebanon who is Christians is not considered this way. Many converted to Islam and once they denounced Christianity they were now 'Arabs.'
 
We are all related in the Middle East Ahmed whether your Christian, Muslim, or an Israeli Jew not only because of looks, culture, and language but also because we are actually very related to one another.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 16:26
I really don' think the people of the middle east look the same - I can usually tell who is from Saudi, who is from Syria and Lebanon and North Africa, Iraq and Egypt - by looks. 

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Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 20:34
Originally posted by Zagros

I really don' think the people of the middle east look the same - I can usually tell who is from Saudi, who is from Syria and Lebanon and North Africa, Iraq and Egypt - by looks. 
 
I can't. The only thing I can tell is that people from the Arabian peninsula are generally darker then the rest of the Middle East. People from North Africa, Delta and the wooded areas of North African don't look all to different from Syrians or Lebanese. I actually find that Palestinians and Egyptians look really similar anyone else notice this?


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 21:27
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by Zagros

I really don' think the people of the middle east look the same - I can usually tell who is from Saudi, who is from Syria and Lebanon and North Africa, Iraqand Egypt - by looks.


I can't. The only thing I can tell is that people from the Arabian peninsula are generally darker then the rest of the Middle East. People from North Africa, Delta and the wooded areas of North African don't look all to different from Syrians or Lebanese. I actually find that Palestinians and Egyptians look really similar anyone else notice this?


There are some similarities, or overlap, but there are certain features that when you see them you know they come from a certain area and no where else. For example one of the features that make Egyptians stand out are the eyes. They have big eyes with very thick long curly lashes. Its a very distinct look. North Africans also have certain features that distinguish them and Yeminis too. I would consider it like three circles. There is a point where all three converge however there also being areas that fall outside that range and do not meet. So the answer to your question is both yes and no. There are certain people who could fit in anywhere you place them, and others who could not. There is no right or wrong answer here.


Posted By: Surmount
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:57
Many people in the middle east and north Africa are considered Arab due to arabization

Arabization is the gradual transformation of an area into one that speaks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language - Arabic and is part of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab - Arab http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture - culture . It can also mean the replacement or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_migration - displacement of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples - native http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population - population with Arabs, although this rarely happened in ancient times, as there weren't nearly sufficient numbers of original Arabs to replace or displace existing populations.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 00:11
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

 
The full name of Syria is Syrian Arab Republic and they consider themselves true or pure Arab.

Yes and the full name of North Korea is Democratic Republic of Korea because they are pure democratic

even before that the Arab settled in Southern Iraq the Lakhmid Dynasty was a vassel kingdom of Sassanid of Persia, Lakhm tribe is a very big tribe as well as Bakr and Shayban who defeated the Sassanids at the battle of Dhi-Qar 610 A.D.

As for lakhmid and Ghassanid:

First, these were insignificant small settlements among Bedouins that some of the Arab nationalists have find in some obscure so called history text and try to make exaggerate posts all over the internet trying to show Arabs have a history that goes before 7th century

Second, they were not in Iraq as in Mesopotamia they were in the desert south of Fertile Crescent AKA Arabia

Third, they dont have much to do with the Afro-Semites who lived in the southwestern Arabian peninsula AKA what is today is referred to as Arabs



Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 04:04
Originally posted by andrew

Well Ahmed, all the people of the Middle East are related. Israelis and Jews are brothers. Egyptians and Arabs are brothers, remember Hagar was Egyptians and traveled into the deserts of Arabia, we're all related to one another Egyptians, Arabs, Assyrians, Babylonians whatever we are all connected. The Arabians came as a single group spreading Islam throught the Middle East and at that time in the Middle East Christianity was the dominant religion. So if your part of an ethnic group it wasn't based on nationality, but religion. When the Arabs came it all changed and we all became one family again. I don't really understand the idea of certain Arab tribes going to Iraq, Egypt, and Assyria.
 
For example both Egypt and Assyrian are now 'Arab Republics' but Lebanon who is Christians is not considered this way. Many converted to Islam and once they denounced Christianity they were now 'Arabs.'
 
We are all related in the Middle East Ahmed whether your Christian, Muslim, or an Israeli Jew not only because of looks, culture, and language but also because we are actually very related to one another.
I know we are all related cuz we are all semitic people excluding Iran but I can't accept the Idea that say Iraqis call themselves Chaldean because that is false maybe  they are proud of Chaldeans but not belong to them.
the same feelings in Syria and Egypt beleive me I have been there both Syrians and Egyptions consider themselves Arabs.
now I want from you to understand how a whole tribe migrated from Arabia to Iraq or any other Arabic country.
Utba bin Ghazwan conquer south of Iraq in 635 A.D he founded the first islamic city outside Arabia not the first Arabic city Basrah.
they city was divide into five districts one for each big tribe Tamim,Azd,Abd Al-Qais,Bakr and Asad.
all these tribs are pure Arab transfered during the Arab expansion they had to settled in these places because it is impossible to keep moving forward and the back the whole army to Arabia and these tribes were the Army.
the same case for Kufa founded in 636 A.D by Saad divided to seven Quarters between kinda,Azd,Khathaam,Tamim,Bakr,Bujayla,Ghassan,Hemyar,hamdan,hawazen,
Asad,Taghlub,Ghtafan all these tribes moved to Iraq and the call is yours now to judge.
if you want to know about Syria and Egypt even Lybia it os the same story but with different Tribes so there is a lot of Pure Arab as well as Arabized people.


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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid


Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 04:07
Originally posted by Zagros

I really don' think the people of the middle east look the same - I can usually tell who is from Saudi, who is from Syria and Lebanon and North Africa, Iraq and Egypt - by looks. 
Agree Zagros but we are from the Area and know everything about it but the foriegner cannot recognize persian from turks or arab.


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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid


Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 04:25
Originally posted by hani

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

 
The full name of Syria is Syrian Arab Republic and they consider themselves true or pure Arab.

Yes and the full name of North Korea is Democratic Republic of Korea because they are pure democratic

very funny from you but I think I make my point clear, there are pure Arabs and there are Arabized people like your brothers in Alegeria .
have you been in syria to know how they feeling about being Arabs pure or not the answer is 100% no.
so try to be objective.
 
I won't answer you about the Exaggeration caus I think you have somthing with the Arabs.
but about their kingdom in Iraq the Lakhmid were in the heart of Southern Iraq, and their capital were Hira on the west bank of the Euphrates 2 miles from Najaf Today in Mesopotamia as well as their dominian was spreading to include Dhi-qar,Muthana,Qadysya governorate today in Iraq were Sumerian culture before them flourished.
about the  insignificant small settlements  the answer is
beside the Lakhmids and I am repeating here there are Bakr tribe one of the Biggest tribe in Arabia migrated from the Heart of Arabia after A bloody war with her sister Taghlub.
you can't deny that they Defeated the Mighty persian Army with small  settlementsDead.
 they defeated the Persians by Bakr and Shayban tribes both of the tribes later will play a major rules in conquest of persia.


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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 14:12
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Originally posted by Zagros

I really don' think the people of the middle east look the same - I can usually tell who is from Saudi, who is from Syria and Lebanon and North Africa, Iraq and Egypt - by looks. 
Agree Zagros but we are from the Area and know everything about it but the foriegner cannot recognize persian from turks or arab.
 
Yes, obviously there is overlapo as others have mentioned but usually it is obvious.  I am not talking about colour of skin I am talking about the general shape of the features.  In the same way I can tell who is Polish, German, French, Spanish, Irish, Greek, Italian etc.


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Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 16:41
Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Originally posted by Zagros

I really don' think the people of the middle east look the same - I can usually tell who is from Saudi, who is from Syria and Lebanon and North Africa, Iraq and Egypt - by looks. 
Agree Zagros but we are from the Area and know everything about it but the foriegner cannot recognize persian from turks or arab.
 
Yes, obviously there is overlapo as others have mentioned but usually it is obvious.  I am not talking about colour of skin I am talking about the general shape of the features.  In the same way I can tell who is Polish, German, French, Spanish, Irish, Greek, Italian etc.
 
Features really needs someone who knows the land well. All we can draw from is skin color and the Middle East you can see anyone from dark brown skin all the way up to an olive complexion. Obvioulsy people of Yemen, Kuwait, Oman, parts of Saudi Arabia have darker skin then the rest of the Middle East. If we say that Syrains are generally lighter then Iraqis and that Morocco is the darkest out of Libya, Egypt, Algeria, and Tunisia then we're bound to conflict on that because skin color in the Middle East is very heterogeneous. For example in Egypt the people in the Delta have light to an olive colored skin. Move to Middle Egypt, Luxor northward, you find people with a middle/bronzish complexion, then anyone from Aswan southward generally look dark brown to a Nubian complexion. However problem is you will find dark people and light people throught the Middle East in most countries. I mean I know Iran is considered 'Aryan,' but from the Iranians I've met they look like any Arab I've met.


Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 16:56
Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Originally posted by Zagros

I really don' think the people of the middle east look the same - I can usually tell who is from Saudi, who is from Syria and Lebanon and North Africa, Iraq and Egypt - by looks. 
Agree Zagros but we are from the Area and know everything about it but the foriegner cannot recognize persian from turks or arab.
 
Yes, obviously there is overlapo as others have mentioned but usually it is obvious.  I am not talking about colour of skin I am talking about the general shape of the features.  In the same way I can tell who is Polish, German, French, Spanish, Irish, Greek, Italian etc.


Zagros, I have the same ability I can recognize those nationalities 95% correct. here in Vegas I see a lot of nationalities. 


Arabs from south are darker and you can say by their feature and those in north west Lebanese and Syrian are lighter and you can find south European elements on them. those from  north Africa except some Egyptians have different feature from other Arabs.

My own opinion: Arabs from Lebanon and Syria are beautiful. Just look at their singers like Nancy ajram, Haifa wehbi, Amr diab, Naval az zoghbi and You know what I mean.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 16:57

In the same way that someone from France can look Spanish and vice versa - it's easily possible but still, in general, french and Spanish people are distinguishable from each other.



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Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 18:10

Hello To You All

 

Well I will give my take in this argument since I read a lot about the early history of Arabs and I have a good knowledge in genealogy.

 

First and Mr Hani wont like it at all Arabs existed as a considerable force in Mesopotamia and Syria since the 1st century BC, Remember Zanobia the Arab Queen that defeated the Persians? As for the Lakhmids their existence is a fact since they allied themselves with the Persians since they ruled the area known today as Al-Muthanna in southern Iraq. Ptolomy in his Geography mentioned their existence and the Arab cites like Petra and Hira are a testimony to their importance and finally did you ever hear of Philip the Arab?

 

Second and this is a fact that most minority nationalist, especially the maronites, wont like is that Arabs DO make the majority of the population in all Arab counties except the Maghreb (Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco). More than 50% of Syrias are settled Arab tribes and more than 20% others trace their ancestry to one of the great Arab tribes especially the Druz and most of the Orthodox Christian population there. In Lebanon, most of the assyrian maronites emigrated after the crusades and catholic Christian Arab tribes (like Al-Khazen family for instance) moved there under pressure from the majority orthodox population who always were loyal to Muslim rulers. As for Iraq my friend Ahmad the Fighter (I hope that no harm comes to him and may things get better in Iraq) has more knowledge. The reason for that is simple. A very common misconception is that Arabia never had much population and it was always an empty waste land, well this is true for the total size of Arabia but not true for the available resources. Those resources were limited and the large number of people contesting for the little that existed means turbulent years and either victory or migration. And thus we find that all Semitic peoples emigrated from Arabia whenever sources were scarce and the strong tribes stay, the first to emigrate were the Akkadian, followed by the Canaanite, the Amorites, the Assyrians etc. The last people to emerge from Arabia and the ones that had the power there were the Arabs. And they did emigrate, at small waves initially and then by the Christian era large waves started coming. First there were the Qahtani tribes of Azd from which the Lakhmid and Ghassanids trace their ancestry. Then there were the Adnani tribes like Tamim, Bakr and Taghlub. In the last 150 years before Islam Arabia was so turbulent that some historians mention more than 1200 battles known as the Day of the Arabs between various tribes mostly on grazing and pastor land as well as water. The reason was the population explosion that happened and the shifting climates that lead to droughts. Arab tribes soon clashed with Byzantine and Persian empires and in the first years of Islam, they united to defeat the Persians in Dhi-Qar and they infiltrated deep into Iraq and even reached present day Mosul and Khuzestan and settled there before Islam came and quickly converted to the new religion. With the advancement of Islam large numbers of Byzantines chose exile rather than live under Islamic rule (including many Christian Arabs) and the vacuum was filled with new immigrants from the peninsula as well as many nobles from the former Sassanid Empire. Throughout the ages, the Arab population was largely safe from famines, plagues and wars that plagued the Middle East and by the 16th century and the Pax Ottomana (I dont know if the word is correct) Bedouins formed the majority of the population and many of them started resettling after peace was restored and they now formed a majority. Same thing but a different story in Egypt where Copts are definitely not Arab although they are immersed in Arab culture (strong tribal traditions, turbans and many social behaviors particular to Arabs and not previously know to exist before among Copts) so as a considerable number Muslim descendents of Coptic converts especially in Upper Egypt region. Most Egyptians are from the Lower Egypt which was settled by three huge waves of Arab tribes (7th century, 11th century and 14th century) which came to replace the ever shrinking population there in addition to other small but significant emigrations up to the 19th century.

 

My third point is Who is an Arab? An Arab means a guy immersed in Arab culture and tradition, a guy who is Arabized, with all due respect Copts cannot define themselves away from Arab culture since the live and think in the Arab and many gave important contributions to Arab culture and thought (Wadee Filasteen, Salamah Musa and many others) not in the Archaic Coptic language which few outside the church know it. Many of the Syrian and Iraqi leaders of Arab nationalism were ironically Kurds, Turks and Assyrians, Khalil Mardam Bey was Turk, Hosni Al-Zaeem was a Kurd and Michel Aflaq was Assyrian I think they all chose Arab culture as their nationality rather than confine themselves in regional or religious identities that give them little space for expression.

 

Thank You

 

Al-Jassas ibn Murrah  



Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 22:55
Originally posted by

My own opinion: Arabs from Lebanon and Syria are beautiful. Just look at their singers like Nancy ajram, Haifa wehbi, Amr diab, Naval az zoghbi and You know what I mean.
 
Amr Diab is Egyptian.
 
Lebanese actors are obsessed about looking European. A lot of them look pale, have surgery, and cake themselves in make up. I can't tell you how many Lebanese females have used contact lenses to make their eyes look green or blue.


Posted By: Surmount
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 00:47
Wow is that true Andrew?

Why can't people just be proud of themselves?

What about other Arab people in other Arab countries, do they also try to look European.


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 10:07
Originally posted by Surmount

Wow is that true Andrew?

Why can't people just be proud of themselves?

What about other Arab people in other Arab countries, do they also try to look European.
 
Have you seen Lebanese programs or Egyptian sitcoms? They try to disguise themselves as Europeans and it is apparent to anyone. As for other Arab countries, it is strictly forbidden in Saudi Arabia and Iraq but if you look at Iran plastic surgery for Western noses is off the charts! The more Western you look in the Middle East the more attractive people see you and that is why people from Lebanon and Syria are resorting to this. I'm just stating fact, but why it happens is opinion.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 11:15
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by Surmount

Wow is that true Andrew? Why can't people just be proud of themselves?What about other Arab people in other Arab countries, do they also try to look European.


Have you seen Lebanese programs or Egyptian sitcoms? They try to disguise themselves as Europeans and it is apparent to anyone. As for other Arab countries, it is strictly forbidden in Saudi Arabia and Iraq but if you look at Iran plastic surgery for Western noses is off the charts! The more Western you look in the Middle East the more attractive people see you and that is why people from Lebanon and Syria are resorting to this. I'm just stating fact, but why it happens is opinion.


I think it has to do partially with the after effects of colonialism. Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, they were all colonized by either the British or French and therefore, the ruling elite were educated by them as well. The mentality regarding racial and cultural superiority being what it was at the time, and the concept of political correctness non existant, you can imagine what they were taught about themselves and their culture. Not to mention the strong effect that media imagery can have on a people. If you grow up seeing a certain standard of beauty shown in your magazines, movies, television, and those images do not look like you, you assume that you have to emulate what you see to meet the acceptable standard. Why do you think that most blond European women are actually brunetts? Hey, know what most blonds and African Americans have in common? Black roots, ya get it!?


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 11:24
Same thing but a different story in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Egypt</st1:country-region> where Copts are definitely not Arab although they are immersed in Arab culture (strong tribal traditions, turbans and many social behaviors particular to Arabs and not previously know to exist before among Copts) so as a considerable number Muslim descendents of Coptic converts especially in <st1:place w:st="on">Upper Egypt</st1:place> region. Most Egyptians are from the <st1:place w:st="on">Lower Egypt</st1:place> which was settled by three huge waves of Arab tribes (7th century, 11th century and 14th century) which came to replace the ever shrinking population there in addition to other small but significant emigrations up to the 19th century.

I'm really uncomfortable with the statment that they replaced the poulation in Egypt. 1stly because I think it feeds into the heated accusations many people make that the present day population of Egypt is not biologically related to the Ancient population and that they are Arab invaders. I think it would be more accurate to say that there were maves of migration into the country. However, from visiting Egypt on a regular basis and looking at their appearance, I think it would be more accurate to say that they blended with rather than displaced the native population. there are very few Egyptians that I see who look like the majority of Arabs from the gulf. However, I'm willing to hear more about this.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 11:39

You are taking about an area larger than Europe. Of course they will be variations.

The Gulfs hagve a lot of African , iranian and S Asian influence.



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Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 12:29
Personally, I'm not an Arab but I do have an olive complexion and come from the Middle East. Therefore people consider me an Arab. The American government considers me an Arab American and so does the Egyptian one, dual citizenship. If we're not talking about color then I understand but mostly only people from the Middle East can pick up on specific looks. Usually from looks we can tell they're from the Middle East but not the specific country. We usually use the accent of the language to pick up where they're from.
 
Really anywhere I go I know that being a 'Copt' is not a valid ethnicity so all I can call myself is an Arab. I don't have a problem with it but Arab brings about stereotypes and things like this. I got a message from the governor of Ed Rendell and it started out saying, 'Dear Arab-American family' so I know that I'm considered an Arab here.
 
I'm proud to be from the Middle East. I meet a Lebanese person I don't feel he is different but rather a brother.
 
BTW, Rakasnumberone can you tell a difference between a Christian Egyptian and a Muslim one?
 
Does anyone here notice Palestinians and Egyptians look very similar?


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 13:40
Originally posted by andrew

Personally, I'm not an Arab but I do have an olive complexion and come from the Middle East. Therefore people consider me an Arab. The American government considers me an Arab American and so does the Egyptian one, dual citizenship. If we're not talking about color then I understand but mostly only people from the Middle East can pick up on specific looks. Usually from looks we can tell they're from the Middle East but not the specific country. We usually use the accent of the language to pick up where they're from.

Really anywhere I go I know that being a 'Copt' is not a valid ethnicity so all I can call myself is an Arab. I don't have a problem with it but Arab brings about stereotypes and things like this. I got a message from the governor of Ed Rendell and it started out saying, 'Dear Arab-American family' so I know that I'm considered an Arab here.


I'm proud to be from the Middle East. I meet a Lebanese person I don't feel he is different but rather a brother.


BTW, Rakasnumberone can you tell a difference between a Christian Egyptian and a Muslim one?


Does anyone here notice Palestinians and Egyptians look very similar?


Yes I can tell the difference. Unlike most people in the world Copts are biological christians, meaning its part of their genetic DNA to be chirstian. You can tell this by certain genetic characteristics. All Copts are born with a cross either on the inside of the right wrist of on the back of the hand between the thumb and 1st finger. Muslims also have a genetic marker which can bee seen as a dark spot on the top of the forhead, this is how you can tell they are different religious species. JUST KIDDING!

Okay, seriously, there is no biologically disernable difference between copts and the rest of the population. Racially speaking, Copts like other Egyptians are mixed with many physical types, East African, Greco Roman, Berber, Anatolian, preIslamicSemites. I would say though that few Copts if any have any Arab ancestory though. Egypt is a mix therfore it depends on the family. Some families have more Mediterranian genes, some have more African genes, and then some are just hard to figure out unless you see the whole family. I have a buddy from Alexandria who looks like the average Olive skinned Egyptian, as do all his brothers and sisters except the youngest sibling who looks like an Ethiopian through and through.

I hung out with a lot of Palestinians in collage. Many Palestinians do bare a strong resemblance to many Egyptians for pretty much the same reason, they are a mix of various peoples. I think this is most true of the areas like Gaza, which are closest to the Egyptian boarder. There are also entire villages in Palestine that are black. I don't know their exact origins, whether they originally came as slaves, merchants who settled there or always were there. Palestine was a major corridor for people who migrated out of Africa and DNA shows 10% of the population in that area has the same African markers that Egyptians also carry. There are a lot in Jerusalem. They are very, very black, but dress like all the other Arabs. Perhaps since they are concentrated in Jerusalem they originally came as pilgrims to the Dome of the Rock and either chose to settle there or were stranded. You also see quite a number of Palestinians with fair skin but very kinky hair. On the whole though I find the majority of them to be much lighter in complexion than the Egyptians and there are cretain feature that are quite common in Egypt that I've never seen in Palestine or among the Palestinian community here in the States.

Of course they also have some Greko Roman and Ottoman ancestory as well. I have a friend who looks like a young skinny version of Taheya Carioca. Her father is what we would consider black here in the states, but her mom has quite a bit of Turkish ancestory. Her sister is very very pale with freckles and looks nothing like her. Genetic combinations are fascinating.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 14:47
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by Surmount

Wow is that true Andrew?

Why can't people just be proud of themselves?

What about other Arab people in other Arab countries, do they also try to look European.
 
Have you seen Lebanese programs or Egyptian sitcoms? They try to disguise themselves as Europeans and it is apparent to anyone. As for other Arab countries, it is strictly forbidden in Saudi Arabia and Iraq but if you look at Iran plastic surgery for Western noses is off the charts! The more Western you look in the Middle East the more attractive people see you and that is why people from Lebanon and Syria are resorting to this. I'm just stating fact, but why it happens is opinion.
 
it actually ends up looking disgusting most of the time.  The thing is most of them have pretty noses to begin with, it's not so much having european noses as it being a fashion trend.  Some people who can't afford it even put the bandage on their nose to make it look like they've had surgery.
 
This is what happens when people are banned from having fun in public, weird perversions left right and centre.


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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 16:36
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by

My own opinion: Arabs from Lebanon and Syria are beautiful. Just look at their singers like Nancy ajram, Haifa wehbi, Amr diab, Naval az zoghbi and You know what I mean.
 
Amr Diab is Egyptian.
 
Lebanese actors are obsessed about looking European. A lot of them look pale, have surgery, and cake themselves in make up. I can't tell you how many Lebanese females have used contact lenses to make their eyes look green or blue.


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 21:51
Originally posted by

You also see quite a number of Palestinians with fair skin but very kinky hair. On the whole though I find the majority of them to be much lighter in complexion than the Egyptians
 
I don't know how they're 'much lighter' according to you. The Egyptian of the Delta are in fact lighter then the Palestinians I have met. I see a lot of the light brown where from north of Cairo most of the Egyptians are light brown to olive complexion.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 02:12
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by

You also see quite a number of Palestinians with fair skin but very kinky hair. On the whole though I find the majority of them to be much lighter in complexion than the Egyptians


I don't know how they're 'much lighter' according to you. The Egyptian of the Delta are in fact lighter then the Palestinians I have met. I see a lot of the light brown where from north of Cairo most of the Egyptians are light brown to olive complexion.


Like I said before, it depends on where they are from and what mixture they have in their back ground. Remember, I'm taking Egypt as a whole into consideration, not just the Delta and all of Palestine, not just Gaza.


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 04:50
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Genetic combinations are fascinating.
I really agree with you on this one, Rakasnumberone.


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 10:24
Originally posted by

Like I said before, it depends on where they are from and what mixture they have in their back ground. Remember, I'm taking Egypt as a whole into consideration, not just the Delta and all of Palestine, not just Gaza.


I was only talking about the Delta. Middle Egyptians look very similar to Lower Egyptians, the 'Said' or where Saidis live my mom used to live in the Said, it's just south of Luxor you find a lot of Arabized Nubians so I understand. I usually don't generalize because nations like Libya, Algeria, and Morocco to the south have Trauregs but I usually don't take them into consideration.

Of course same goes for Arabians, to the North they're not that dark but in the south they are very dark.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 11:29
[/quote]I was only talking about the Delta. Middle Egyptians look very similar to Lower Egyptians, the 'Said' or where Saidis live my mom used to live in the Said, it's just south of Luxor you find a lot of Arabized Nubians so I understand. I usually don't generalize because nations like Libya, Algeria, and Morocco to the south have Trauregs but I usually don't take them into consideration.Of course same goes for Arabians, to the North they're not that dark but in the south they are very dark.
[/QUOTE]
I understand that, but if you say "EGYPT" then you have to be specific about the region you are focusing on, otherwise the reader assumes you are spaking about the country as a whole.

The Said itself extends much farther north than Luxor. The first big town you get to traveling south is Sohag. As for the color of the people, It is a mistake to assume that all the dark people you see down there are Nubians, or mixxed with Sudanese, they are not. However this is a common mistake/assumption that many people make because of the similarity in color. Unless a person is wearing traditional clothing, it is often times impossible to distinguish a Nubian from a Saidi based on external apperance. The overwhelming majority of the Saidis are dark, but they are native Saidis, not Nubians or Sudanese.

The Nubians are a very distince ethnic group who speak several different languages and have cultures quite distinct from that of the Saidis. Of all the Nubian groups I think there are only one or two who speak Arabic as a first language. For the rest, Arabic is their second language.

You find most of the actual Nubian community living in the areas around Aswan today. Their actual homeland was much farther south. They were relocated to Aswan in the late 60s because after the building of the Aswan High Dam, their traditional homeland was flooded


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 17:00
Originally posted by rakasnumberone

The Said itself extends much farther north than Luxor. The first big town you get to traveling south is Sohag. As for the color of the people, It is a mistake to assume that all the dark people you see down there are Nubians, or mixxed with Sudanese, they are not. However this is a common mistake/assumption that many people make because of the similarity in color. Unless a person is wearing traditional clothing, it is often times impossible to distinguish a Nubian from a Saidi based on external apperance. The overwhelming majority of the Saidis are dark, but they are native Saidis, not Nubians or Sudanese.
 
I can tell the difference. Also Bedhouins look failry similar to Saidis. I met one he looked like a Saidi.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 17:13
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by rakasnumberone

The Said itself extends much farther north than Luxor. The first big town you get to traveling south is Sohag. As for the color of the people, It is a mistake to assume that all the dark people you see down there are Nubians, or mixxed with Sudanese, they are not. However this is a common mistake/assumption that many people make because of the similarity in color. Unless a person is wearing traditional clothing, it is often times impossible to distinguish a Nubian from a Saidi based on external apperance. The overwhelming majority of the Saidis are dark, but they are native Saidis, not Nubians or Sudanese.


I can tell the difference. Also Bedhouins look failry similar to Saidis. I met one he looked like a Saidi.


Some do some don't. I have seen Bedu down there, but the thing is even though the Saidis tend to be dark, there are many who are very fair also. Depends on what is in their individual family background. Also one person can be of a different physical type than their cousins or siblings. If you look at my youtbe interview with Osaman Balata, he's like a tannish brown, but his brother is black skinned. When a person has parents or grand parents of variying skin tones and physical characteristics, the play of genetic combinations and dominant and recessive traits can express themselves in mant ways.   


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 19:12

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

I know we are all related cuz we are all semitic people excluding Iran

You gave the right answer for the wrong reasons.

Here is what Semitic is:

-A group of languages which possibly have had a common root very, very long time ago AKA a language group

-An alias used in modern English to refer to Jewish people

Here is what Semitic is NOT:

-A club

-A genetic group

-A racial group

-A group in which members currently speaking a particular language is indication of common ancestor

Korean and Finish people speak language that are in the same group as do Indians and British. Does that mean they are also "related".

Most people in the Northern Middle East are probably related, but that has nothing to do with "Semitic" or "Arab"

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

have you been in syria to know how they feeling about being Arabs pure or not the answer is 100% no.

so try to be objective.

Yes try to be objective. First of all there is no such thing as pure anything let alone something as questionable as Arabness. Some of Arabization is much more recent than you think. When the Western powers left middle east they mostly left puppet Arab Sheiks to rule the newly created countries because they seemed to be favorable to their interest and many people were forced to call themselves Arab to avoid persecution Iraq itself is a good example

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

but about their kingdom in Iraq the Lakhmid were in the heart of Southern Iraq, and their capital were Hira

What capital? Even if these people elusive excised. Most likely there extent was limited to some small desert village. Dont try to exaggerate



Posted By: Penelope
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 02:13
Originally posted by Zagros

I really don' think the people of the middle east look the same - I can usually tell who is from Saudi, who is from Syria and Lebanon and North Africa, Iraq and Egypt - by looks. 
 
You must also keep in mind that just becuase a person looks a certain way, does not mean that the person is from a particular area. In most cases, it is entirely impossible to pin a region on a person becuase of what they look like.


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 04:14
Hello to You all
 
Well Mr. Hani, Obviously you did not read my earlier post, so, read it and then come to answer me.
 
Secondly, All semitic languages are very similar to each other and the similarity between Aramaic and Arabic for example is stronger than that between english and Albania. The Grammatical structure is similar to an astonishing rate so as the root structure and other linguistic features. Remeber, Arabic grammer was used as the basis for both Hebrow and Syriac language without much difficulty and Arab author noted the similarities between Hebrow and Arabic long before modern linguistic studies.
 
Thirdly: Yes, there is a genetic basis for the claim that most people who call themselves semites are really semites and here are some links:
 
http://foundationstone.com.au/HtmlSupport/WebPage/semiticGenetics.html - http://foundationstone.com.au/HtmlSupport/WebPage/semiticGenetics.html
http://www.assyrianfoundation.org/genetics.htm - http://www.assyrianfoundation.org/genetics.htm
 
Thank You
 
Al-Jassas
 
 


Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 05:59
First of all Hani semitic is a racial and genitic please read Jassas's links.
second
your answer about Shiekhs is unfit to what I said,you can talk about any country except Iraq because I know about my country more than you know, I accept what you mentioned some people called themselves Arab but who they are? some individuals to protect their ranks in Saddam reign not a big masses acclaimed they are Arab and they are not.
from mousel to Basrah the Arabian tribe is exist and no need to tell you go back to my previous posts here to know.
third
I am not trying to exaggerate,Obviously you don't know anything about Arabs and Lakhmids dynasty as well as Ghassanid.
Hira was a big city as well as Busra the Ghassanid's capital I can't beleive I disscus this.
about pure Arab,Arabs are the most intrested nation  in lineage and geneology you can't argue in that.
so all Iraqi tribs I mentioned above are pure Arabs.


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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid


Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 17:45
Ahmed, Some Arab guy in another forum told me that the Arab tribe in Al-Anbar region in Iraq were Persian in origin. Is it true?


Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 17:50
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello to You all
 
Well Mr. Hani, Obviously you did not read my earlier post, so, read it and then come to answer me.
 
Secondly, All semitic languages are very similar to each other and the similarity between Aramaic and Arabic for example is stronger than that between english and Albania. The Grammatical structure is similar to an astonishing rate so as the root structure and other linguistic features. Remeber, Arabic grammer was used as the basis for both Hebrow and Syriac language without much difficulty and Arab author noted the similarities between Hebrow and Arabic long before modern linguistic studies.
 
Thirdly: Yes, there is a genetic basis for the claim that most people who call themselves semites are really semites and here are some links:
 
http://foundationstone.com.au/HtmlSupport/WebPage/semiticGenetics.html - http://foundationstone.com.au/HtmlSupport/WebPage/semiticGenetics.html
http://www.assyrianfoundation.org/genetics.htm - http://www.assyrianfoundation.org/genetics.htm
 
Thank You
 
Al-Jassas
 
 
 
Al-Jassas, how close is the relationship btw Arabic an Aramaic? I know that Arabic script derived from Nabatean Aramaic script. And they are both categorized in Central Semitic.
 
Azmuith , he is the moderator in here and he is an Arab from UAE, said he can understand 60% of the conversation in "Passion of the Christ" without subtitle.


Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 16:00
Originally posted by Killabee

Ahmed, Some Arab guy in another forum told me that the Arab tribe in Al-Anbar region in Iraq were Persian in origin. Is it true?
Sorry for being late Killabee,and that is not true there is a big misconception here.
the major tribe in Al-Anbar is Dulaymi tribe they are from Yamani Arabs from Zubayd tribe one of the biggest tribe in Arabia,some people thought they are from Daylaman in north of Iran like the Daylamids( Buwayhids).


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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid


Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 19:18
I think anybody who likes very spicy food is an arab


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 23:38

I think Al-Jassas covered what i was going to write here infact even better Smile,

in addition i would like to point that there is no such thing as pure race not 100%,  also Arabs are in the middle of the old world, through history many people passed/settelled/immigrated to and from Arabian penensula ( which is where the semitic originally from).
 
 
 

Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

I think anybody who likes very spicy food is an arab

 
LOL
 
omg  those are Indians not arabs ponce
 
 


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Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 14:40
Hey now you are calling Indians arbas? Thats racist. I can tell an Indian from an Arab thank you very much.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 17:57
No, what you said is racist.  Anybody who likes spicy food is Arab? huh?

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Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 18:13
Originally posted by Zagros

No, what you said is racist.  Anybody who likes spicy food is Arab? huh?
 
Not only is it racist, it's also far from the truth. Tabouli, falafal, grape leaves, and humus and all you can conjure up is that we like really spicy food?
 
And we both look very different from Indians and share a completely different culture.


Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 22:23
dont sweat it big guy i was just being sarcastic on this one. Besides I already said I can tell an Indian from an arab. All you gotta do is check if they got a red dot on their forehead.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 05:05

Save it for the tavern or another place.



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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 03:42
another thing worth mentioning is that Arabs in middle of Arabian Peninsula had the purest Arabic language than the ones in Yemen and Iraq, because Yemen and Iraq had lots of contact with non-Arab nations such as Africa, Persia and Romans. while the Arabs in middle of Arabia had much less contact thats because middle of Arabia is mainly Desert and was not attractive to non-arabic nations and were more isolated and their language was not affected and kept pure, thats one of the reasons why Arabs from Big cities such as Makkah used to sent their kids to live their childhood in the desert with the bedouin people, to learn the pure Arabic language.


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